Solarist Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 Personally, I: 1. Don't complain when anyone helps me fold my clothes but does it "wrong." And if I help you out, don't complain to me either. If you don't like the way I do it, do it yourself. If I don't like the way you do it, I will do it myself. Yes - I see you point, however the alternative solutions are: 1) Tell me "no" when I try to help which would probably open up the reason anyways. 2) Deal with it, but be resentful. Before, she would just grow pissy and eventually lash out - the fact she communicated her gripe in a mature manner is indeed improvement, imho. 2. Never involve friends in my personal life with our problems. Instead, I talk directly to my wife about it. Furthermore, I would never discuss my problems with one of my wifes friends. This takes energy and focus away from me and my wife and information will come back to my wife in a way that is distorted. This is a slippery slope and I would avoid it politely but at all costs. I would 100% prefer that none of her friends were involved, however she made them involved so that fact pretty much is unavoidable at this point. It is nice that they showed an interest to see my side of it. My wife can and does read my blog and will likewise be able to see the comments left by her friend and any responses I provided, so there won't be a distortion effect. I agree though - I don't think I would talk in private with any of them but since the cat is out of the bag, additional perspective could be useful for both of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stheno Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I'm going to have to chime in on this "gripe" thing. I really don't see it as an improvement, I see it as a redirection of disturbing and disrespectful behavior. If her old gripe was you didn't help around the house (even tho you work 8 to 12 hours a day to bring home the bacon, and she doesn't do the house work during this time). She should be grateful that you are helping. System or not, being this way would send anyone down the road of "forget you, I just won't help then....do it yourself". I really don't know the right way to convey how wrong it is IMO that one does this in any stage of a relationship (working or broken). It is also wrong to be an enabler for this type of negative behavior by not pointing out that it is hurtful and wrong given that she obviously knows you two are having issues and that you are actively trying to fix your end of it. Seems to me it follows a trend I recognise from my ex's... Pick,Pick,Pick,Pick .......oops that Pick don't work anymore.....Pick Pick Pick...(then Pickee goes)SNAP... (edit to add what I forgot) Typically the Picker WANTS the other person to snap, so that other people can see that its "oh not me being the bad guy...see its him(or pickee). thereforeeee it works to put the strain on the pickee to feel it is all their fault. (its just another form of manipulation) Don't know what else to say, this type of thing would wear me quite thin and charge my emotional defensive aggressions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 I don't know - perhaps I am just so used to negative behavior I don't even recognize it at this point (Hey - it's possible!) but I don't see exactly how it was a negative action. If someone's actions effect you in a perceived negative way, the mature thing would be to approach the person over the matter. This would be the same thing as if someone's music was too loud - you could just say nothing and grow pissy about it, or you could go and say "Hey, could you turn down the music". In this situation, she expressed that how I put the towels away was different from where she would put them and if I am going to put them away again, asking if I could put them away in particular places. She didn't tell me I had to do anything - just simply saying if I do, she would appreciate if I put them in the same place she has for 9 years. Okay - perhaps I don't get it or maybe I didn't explain the situation too clearly. If it is the former - how is the better way to deal with it? Just rearrange the towels every time I put them away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stheno Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I just ment that from the sounds of your post mentioning this situation, it seems the way you put them away "bothered her". To me that seems nit-picky really. If someone helps me do something, especially if they don't normally, I let them do it as they do. Then if I don't like how they do it, I adjust it after the fact if it is "that much" of a issue. TBH there are far worse things about her situation with the home life that deserve the attention of her vocalizing her thoughts on. I just think its poor of her to comparatively "bite the hand that feeds her" (in more ways than one). If one wants help being critical of the help ya get is being unappreciative and nit picky. I have never heard of a placement of towels being a huge issue to cast that much light on it. (sorry if ya havn't guessed I am slightly confrontational and vocal when it comes to perceived wrongs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 Yes, although I think it was more where I put them away than how (I clumped them down in a giant stack - she organizes them...). She did indicate that she wasn't going to mention anything since she thought it was a rarity that I would end up putting them away, but I ended up putting them away twice this week, so she figured she would let me know. Likewise, she didn't say I did it wrong or whatnot - she just asked that if I am going to put them away, that I organized them like such. At least it would seem it would be similar to how I asked if her she could throw away the cans of food when she cooks instead of just leaving them on the counter - she was cooking for me, and I should be greatful, but still, I think it is perfect right to ask that an action of your partner's is changed. They still have the choice to comply or not, but otherwise, how would mutual understandings and agreements work out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stheno Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Ah ok, it just wasn't a clear message in the mention if it. Just came accross as, well...how I took it lol. So, if you did just clump them...pfft shame on you lol they make shelves for those things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 Ah ok, it just wasn't a clear message in the mention if it. Just came accross as, well...how I took it lol. So, if you did just clump them...pfft shame on you lol they make shelves for those things Well, dumping them isn't quite right either - more like stacked all the towels into a single stack opposed to placing this type here, that type here, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stheno Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 lol some would call that a "typical guy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted May 11, 2007 Author Share Posted May 11, 2007 Well - I tried to talk calmly and rationally about my feelings of frustration over working all day to come home to a house that is rather messy, a huge mess on the porch that my son did that my wife didn't know about, etc. to find that she didn't feel like cleaning. I stayed calm - she pretty much walked away and I am silent treatmented at this point. All I got was "no matter what I do, it isn't right" and a few random insults occasionally... Grrr.... I could use some encouragement right about now - feeling very blue and a tad bit pissed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PocoDiablo Posted May 11, 2007 Share Posted May 11, 2007 Well - I tried to talk calmly and rationally about my feelings of frustration over working all day to come home to a house that is rather messy, a huge mess on the porch that my son did that my wife didn't know about, etc. to find that she didn't feel like cleaning. I stayed calm - she pretty much walked away and I am silent treatmented at this point. All I got was "no matter what I do, it isn't right" and a few random insults occasionally... Grrr.... I could use some encouragement right about now - feeling very blue and a tad bit pissed Here's a tip: Only address positive or wanted behaviors. thereforeeee, if the house is a hell hole, do NOT mention it. Instead, find the GOOD thing that exists. An example might be "Hey, I noticed you cleaned the kitchen counters, they look great. I really appreciate you helping out." We as people tend to live up to what people say of us, what people expect of us. The most powerful example I see over and over is when one partner tells the other that they think he or she is cheating (when in fact it's false.) The more they say it the more the recipient denies it. However, over time, the recipient of these words will *tend* to actually *engage* in the "accused" behavior! This is what I have called the "Don't do syndrome." It is based on how the mind works, and is a very powerful technique used for mind control and cult induction techniques. However, it is also used unknowingly by people and parents every day. It has to do with the way the brain processes words, language, and ideas. Here's an example: "Don't think of a purple tiger." Okay, what happened? You thought of a purple tiger, right? Of course. The reason why is because the human mind takes each word and processes it as it receives it. "Don't" gets processed. "Think" gets processed. "of a" gets processed. "Purple tiger" gets processed. The MOST important thing here to notice is that the use of the word "Don't" is actually suppressed! The human mind literally throws away the word "don't"! Here's a real life example, now think about how this works. Scenario: Parent with kids at the pool. "Don't run!" How does this train the human brain? Simple - it teaches you what you are going to do - RUN! It does NOT, however, tell the child or person what the DESIRED OUTCOME is. In order to effectively let people know what it desired of them, or what they have done that is praise or reward worthy, you have to speak in terms of desired outcomes or goals. Let's try that again: "Kids, you MUST walk in the pool area for your safety on this slippery surface." With repeated "doses" people will also tend to exceed what they have been told. thereforeeee, if you constantly tell your kid to "not be so out of control" they will become MORE out of control. If you tell your kid to be "more calm, mature, and grown up" they will often live up to this as well. (Reality check - no, it's not exactly that simple, I know that, I'm just using it for a basic example!) So, with the family, if someone does something good, you praise them for it. "I'm so proud of you for starting to help out. It's really great and I've noticed." Remember, you have to take small steps before you can walk, and then learn to run. You have to praise any behavior that takes you in the right direction, and COMPLETELY IGNORE any subversive, negative, or otherwise inappropriate behavior. If you engage someone who is angry, it's GOOD to encourage them express their feelings. Let them know you are really glad they opened up, and it's a great first step. If your wife starts cleaning the house more, praise her for it. If she takes a day off from cleaning, praise her for having a day off / taking a break and making a decision to rest a little. Clearly it must have been a busy day, right? This is training 101, by the way. You can teach anyone or most anything to do any behavior with the concept of "successive approximations". You should check this out here: link removed) Notice the link to behavior modification: link removed This is not a hard-and-true fix-all method, but it is interesting to think about what YOU are doing and what you may *really* be reinforcing. Personally, I do my best to recognize the effort and improvements in others and focus on them. With a little recognition, and then a little guidance, I find that most people can very quickly learn positive, healthy, and mature behaviors that end up increasing their feelings of self-worth. The cure all for the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted May 11, 2007 Author Share Posted May 11, 2007 Very interesting PocoDiablo - definitely a different perspective than most of the "put your foot down" advice I have received. I can see how this would work - back when I had to supervise large groups of people I indeed found it usually was less draining and had a more positive effect to reinforce good behavior than punish bad. One fear I have with this is that it really is based upon, to some extent, passive-aggressiveness, something I was striving to improve upon. On the other hand, I know it can be more effective, and it isn't trying to force my will upon someone to make them change, which is also something I am trying to avoid. Good points to ponder, PicoDiablo, and I'll read through the links you provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted June 28, 2007 Author Share Posted June 28, 2007 Well - it has been a while so I figured I should give an update on the situation - although it is not particularly wonderful in most aspects. My wife is slowly starting to communicate with him more on the weekends again. While it still has not escallated to voice chatting again, they will IM each other for hours or utilize an online game to chat. For a while my wife was being much more affectionate and attentive - this seems to have been going back downhill again. I understand that people go through emotional cycles, so I am not hugely distraught about this. My wife has started voice chatting with quite a few other guys along with this guy as of late, within an online game (Second Life). She also, about the same time, switch the gender of her character from male to female (which I suppose makes some sense if VoIP'ing). One of the guys she met yesterday is within the same state - I played it cool, but I have to admit I feel nervous about it. One thing that bugs me is she is constantly emailing him pictures or happenings of what is going on in our lives. I don't mean sharing pictures of some nifty vacation to an exotic place, but rather things like something funny she hears on a TV show, pictures of the house after we cleaned it, funny things the kids say, pictures of the pets playing - we are talking about half a dozen "updates" on her life each day. It just well, kinda creeps me out - probably would even if she were emailing her mother like this.... My personal progress seems to have stagnated. I need to build the momentum again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke2121 Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Divorce her and get on with your life...you tried Solarist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PocoDiablo Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Man, I agree. Not much progress? Find a new woman. And while you're at it, make some changes in your life. Promise to never tolerate being mis-treated or made second best ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted June 28, 2007 Author Share Posted June 28, 2007 Divorce her and get on with your life...you tried Solarist. So much easier said than done - and there is that whole bloody fear of loosing my kids (and paying $$ for that joy). I just don't get how the heck someone cannot see the "issue" with this whole gig. I suppose, in reflection, it could be an artifact of her age, and the age when she got together. While she is 25 now and thus should have some maturity about this, she was 17 when we first got together and we had a child when she was 18, so much of her development time was, well, stripped away from her. In some ways I think the fact that she missed out on this typical growth stage of her life, she is acting out and the lacking of it is catching up. Perhaps that is part of my whole patience with the situation - a hope that, well, she will grow out of this whole situation - although that might not happen until she feels/witnesses first hand the negative outcomes from her actions. While her childhood was not wonderful and she was forced to live as an adult earlier in her life (her parents moved to another state and ditched her with a eviction notice to their apartment). When we first met, she pretty much was couch surfing from house to house. She never has had a job and has no real comprehension of what that entails (she gets outraged if cleaning the house takes more than an hour or so of her life...). Perhaps I am rationalizing (actually, I am completely rationalizing) - but I am not sure I can expect her to act completely maturely when she never has experienced some aspects of life. I think she honestly thinks I have a grand-old-time at work everyday, since well, it must be fun since I do it (of course, she is completely opposed to working herself....). While parenthood has made her grow up quick, there is just some things that she says or does that make me think she is still stuck at 17 50% of the time. Oh well, I am ranting (and rationalizing) away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke2121 Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Any self-respecting judge will look at her cheating in a divorce case and will award you at least partial custody, if not full. Drop her dude...you're only hurting yourself now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted June 28, 2007 Author Share Posted June 28, 2007 Oregon is a no-fault state. The situations that lead to the divorce have no barrings on any outcome of the divorce. (I know, I need to move!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted June 29, 2007 Author Share Posted June 29, 2007 Lovely, just lovely - Found out my wife has now posted his resume on a local job site as he feels the great need to move away from the UK.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted June 29, 2007 Author Share Posted June 29, 2007 Was helping my wife copy over her files and whatnot to a new computer last night. Found an outbound email subject of "I did something just for you" to this guy. Asked her about it - she indicated it was regarding changing her character in Second Life to a female for him... Wonderful... Plus side, she was honest, negative side, she didn't understand why I was concerned about this. *sigh* One of us is hella naive - and it is probably me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke2121 Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 DUDE!!! *sigh* Please, please don't take this the wrong way. But grow some stones and get rid of her! She sees you the same way a Doberman sees its favorite chew toy...as a lump it can abuse!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted June 29, 2007 Author Share Posted June 29, 2007 If I had a guaranty that I would not lose my kids, it would be soooo much simpler - however looking at the laws (and case histories) here, it does not look too optimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke2121 Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Well then sue for joint custody! Don't just set there and take it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverMore Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Pardon me Solarist, but I just want to say I love the title of this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Thanks FaeriesWearBoots - I thought it was appropriate, although it turning out to be a longer quest that initial thought. Just as an update, found out that she was "jokingly" asking this guy to send him a picture of his penis - he didn't, but still, not thrilled with it, even if it was a joke. She also has been telling her family members that I am completely losing it for no reasons; when I talked to them, I didn't go into details, but I told them there was perfectly good reasons for my "paranoia". I just got authorization from my insurance company to do couple therapy. I am not sure exactly how to choose someone to see from the list of 50 or so within the area that my insurance covers. I pretty much choose someone whom would do weekend appointments (good for my work) and whom had a PHD (figure the extra schooling couldn't hurt). My wife, while nervous and apprehensive about going to see one, pretty much agreed to once I put my foot down about the issue. Still waiting for the Dr. to call back to set up an appointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarist Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Perhaps I am oversensitive and due to everything, becoming very over barring - found out she is pretty much telling everyone now that I am going nuts and threatening to leave her because she just has a "friend". Still waiting for the darn counselor to call back; starting to think I need to go seek out another one to call because I really need us to get in to see one asap - the kids are starting to notice. Am I completely nuts for feeling pissed that she is telling guys she just met about the situation (and of course, leaving out any thing she did wrong - which at this point, she is pretty much saying again she did nothing wrong...). It just is driving me nuts. I find out about something; confront her about it; she denies it until she is confident that I *KNOW* and then play it off as it was a joke or misunderstanding; then almost immediately goes and tells everyone (including this guy) about this fight. I notice that, get pissy, and she has no clue why I would be. Grrrrrr... Am I abnormal for not being okay with my wife asking for a picture of another guy's penis? I mean, heck, even if I was confident it was just a joke (which I am not), I still think that is just hella wrong. Oh well - hopefully counselling will help.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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