Unrealistic expectations

[corvidae]

When it comes to dating and relationships a highly referenced problem is that of 'understanding'; or rather the lack of it. Speaking as a man (I'm not qualified to speak as a woman), one way this problem manifests itself is in 'unrealistic expectations'. To my mind, unrealistic expectations refers to the problem where person A has a particular expectation in their mind of what person B will do or say if they are interested in pursuing a relationship, and if person B does not then fulfill the requirements of the expectation, then person A will assume they are not interested.

 

A perfect example is where women expect men to approach them if they are interested, and that a lack of approach indicates a lack of interest. This is a general example. A specific example can be taken from a friend of mine who told me that if a man does not speak to her, she assigns that man the label of 'not interested'. So in her mind she has the expectation that if man X is interested in her, then man X will speak to her. Lack of conversation means man X fails in the expectation and my friend then loses any interest she may have had to begin with. Her body language becomes closed, and the man is unlikely to approach even if he was originally considering it.

 

By setting up entirely internal expectations in our heads, measuring people against them, then using these expectations to make clear-cut, unambiguous decisions about that person, means that a lot of confusion arises. In any given situation it is impossible to say "if that person were interested in me they would do " because there is no universal mode of behaviour.

[Survictor]

I think women do generally give out some signals; even if they are very shy. Body language is surely a universal one and one that is worth taking the time to learn.

 

Occasionally, however some people seem unwilling to listen to what a person says or how they behave and that's a bigger problem for me.

 

If I am interested in a guy, I would let him know and this could consist of:

 

Looking in his direction and smiling

Looking in his direction and casting my gaze away

Catching is eye and holding his gaze before looking away

catching his eye and holding his gaze before smiling and looking away

Being in his face a little more (lol) and making sure he notices me

Arching my back and standing provocatively in front of him

Touching his arm or shoulder whilst in conversation with him

Laughing loudly so he hears me (catching his attention)

 

There are so many signals a lady will send out if you just care to look at them!

 

This doesn't mean she is definitely interested in you... it could be she just likes general male attention and does it to everyone... but if it is just to you then you know you're pretty much in the clear!

 

As for people having unrealistic expections then we all have hopes and some people are able to hide those hopes better than others. After all, it can scare some people off big time... it would me if I thought someone was pinning all their hopes on me. It's a huge responsibility, especially if those hopes are not reciprocated.

[atraceofblood]

I think too many expectations can hurt people. I know it hurts me and I'm slowly trying to have less expecations. It's very hard because I'm so inexperienced with women.

[CheerfulSprocket]

Well, I think much of what you write is true though I think that it is appropriate and healthy to have some expectations, just not "unrealistic" ones. So that's the area of misunderstanding that you've observed. What is "unrealistic" to you is not to another - as we've seen on this board many times, many people find it realistic or reasonable that interested people will make their interest known usually through some overt action. Here in the US, esp in less urban areas, there appears to be a cultural bias that assumes that the man, if interested, makes the first move. So in fact, from this perspective the expectation that an interested man will make some sort of romantic gesture towards the woman is not an unrealistic expectation at all. I'm not saying I agree with this and I do think that it is changing, but in my experience, it's still pretty common.

 

Spro

[easyguy]

I've learned to have no expectations. Reality is reality, and you will not get everything you wish for. High expectations lead to disappointment. disappointment causes pain. Pain is suffering. Suffering comes from being too attatched to one person. If you treat every case as a minute thing, then going for what you want becomes less cumbersome.

[Salucious]

It is funny, a bunch of guys (including me) have asked in posts if girls who do things like this means that the girl is interested. Most responses told them they were looking for signals that aren't there, or that those behaviors don't mean that she is interested. But I think most people would agree that women's signals are usually too vague. I think primarily girls would try to flirt with a guy they like and not so much suttle glances and non-verbal signals. Then again I don't really understand anything about women, I consider it a turkey shoot when it comes to attracting women.

[Dating Coach]

A perfect example is where women expect men to approach them if they are interested, and that a lack of approach indicates a lack of interest. This is a general example. A specific example can be taken from a friend of mine who told me that if a man does not speak to her, she assigns that man the label of 'not interested'. So in her mind she has the expectation that if man X is interested in her, then man X will speak to her. Lack of conversation means man X fails in the expectation and my friend then loses any interest she may have had to begin with. Her body language becomes closed, and the man is unlikely to approach even if he was originally considering it.

 

Perhaps not only is this an expectation she has but a choice as well. If a guy isn't asking her out you seem to criticisize her for assuming he is not interested but perhaps it's not just that but also that she herself finds it a turnoff when a guy makes no moves? Who knows? Maybe that behavior from a guy is aggrivating and frustrating and she'd prefer to find a guy that will simply ask her out and move things along. If this is her preference then who are we to judge her? A lot of girls feel this way and I see nothing wrong with it. These women don't owe these guys anything. It's their choice.

[Dating Coach]

Well said. What is an unrealistic expectation is that a guy expects the girl to give him a chance or consider him even though he doesn't make his interest known. If you have interest then it is your responsibility to act, not the other persons responsibility to wait. Especially women, whom likely have other guys expressing interest in her while the first guy shuffles his feet.

[Dating Coach]

It is funny, a bunch of guys (including me) have asked in posts if girls who do things like this means that the girl is interested. Most responses told them they were looking for signals that aren't there, or that those behaviors don't mean that she is interested. But I think most people would agree that women's signals are usually too vague. I think primarily girls would try to flirt with a guy they like and not so much suttle glances and non-verbal signals. Then again I don't really understand anything about women, I consider it a turkey shoot when it comes to attracting women.

 

 

It sounds like you are asking that women be move obvious that they are interested. Why should a girl put their feelings out there when the guy won't? Why should she make this extra effort for those guys when she has other guys doing the work for her by expressing their interest in her?

[corvidae]

Why shouldn't a woman put her feelings out there? Aside from subjective preference. And why shouldn't a man ask for some reciprocal effort? What ever happened to 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'?

 

PS. I'm not religious, I just think that's a good way of looking at things...empathy is the way forward!

[Scout]

Why shouldn't a woman put her feelings out there?

 

No argument from me on this point, I absolutely advocate females showing their interest, being the first to make a move/ask for a date, if circumstances put them in the role of doing so.

 

I definitely don't think "first moves" should be a gender-specific role.

[Survictor]

When I was a young lassie, I was way to unsure of myself to ask a guy out! As I matured, I am far more relaxed about it and asking someone to join me for a drink etc is not a daunting prospect. I think this is because I realise now that life is too short for regrets and that when you think of all the opportunities that you passed up because you were too fearful for whatever reason, you know that you have wasted a lot of time over these silly angsts.

 

Also though, I tend to not put my faith in someone and so when I ask if they would like to join me for a drink that's all I mean. There is no ulterior motive. When I was much younger, guys seemed to think that if I so much as smiled in their direction, it was a come on! Perhaps the game of the chase is more exciting then... it all being new and such, but now? I cannot be bothered with it all.

[Batya33]

Hmmm. There is no universal mode of communication but since I have always had limited resources as far as who I choose to be involved with (limited free time and limited emotional energy for example) I believe the best bet I have is to those men who actually speak to me or respond to my speaking to them in a friendly, approachable manner.

 

In my experience and in the experience of all the people I know and know of, over the last 25 years, if a man is truly interested in you and emotionally and otherwise available for a relationship, he will ask you out on a proper date he plans in advance. The availability part depends on whether you two are co-workers, or he is dating someone else, or has decided that he is too shy even to date someone and thereforeeee is not available for a dating relationship.

 

There are exceptions, of course, but given the limited time and resources most of the people I know will - reasonably - stick to what works than the rare chance that even though the man has made no effort to approach the woman, he "might" be interested.

 

I am the same way with platonic friendships. I am not going to keep emailing a person who doesn't respond to my emails that attempt to make a plan for lunch to get to know each other better or keep trying to make forced conversation with someone who clearly doesn't seem interested. I use my precious resources of time and friendship on those who are reliable and seem interested in spending time with me.

[Scout]

Something to keep in mind...one reason women are often hesitant to make the first move is that it's been repeatedly drummed into our heads that guys like the chase, and if we make the first move, we're being "too aggressive."

 

But after three years of coming to eNotalone and seeing countless posts from guys lamenting that women don't make the first move enough, I think its clear that men have NO PROBLEM with women showing their interest first. Not to mention my own success in this department. (Although I've had a crash and burn or two!)

[SexySadie7]

DiggityDog. i couldn't agree with this more:

"Well said. What is an unrealistic expectation is that a guy expects the girl to give him a chance or consider him even though he doesn't make his interest known. If you have interest then it is your responsibility to act, not the other persons responsibility to wait. Especially women, whom likely have other guys expressing interest in her while the first guy shuffles his feet."

I agree, it's most frustrating for the woman to have to wait for the man of her choice to make the first move and confusing too.. especially if other men are asking her out.

What is a girl to do? Just hope the guy she really likes, ask her out? Go out with another guy cuz the one she liked never called and asked her out, and she doesn't want to wait indefinitely.

Guys.. although, I can recognize it's hard to have to be the one to face rejection asking someone out, have to recognize too, that there's other guys for girls to date besides him. If they wait indefinitely.. the ones that were willing to ask her out may no longer be interested, or be involved with someone else.. and the guy she was truly interested in may have never even bothered to ask her out in the first place!

And then she's left with no prospects at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____________

[Scout]

Well, maybe instead of wasting time just sitting there worrying about all these things, she should go ask the guy out and then she knows for sure if he is interested or not and can date him or move on to the other men depending on his response.

 

Exactly. It's such a simple solution that I feel too many of us (I'm referring to both guys and gals here) neglect to do because we're afraid we'll go up in a puff of smoke if we get rejected...or have a permanent stamp on our face of the letter "R."

 

I think many of us make this whole dating thing much harder than need be, all in the interest of protecting our fragile egos. Well, I for one do not want to look back at my life and regret a lot of missed opportunities that I passed up because I was too afraid to ask.

[Batya33]

I'm not afraid of rejection - I have asked out several men and would do it again if I thought it was an effective way to find a lasting relationship. I have seen lasting relationships arise from a woman asking out for the first date (very few, but a few) but have never heard of a lasting, happy, healthy relationship where the woman does most of the initiating, contacting and asking in the first few months. I have seen many healthy lasting relationships where the man does most of the initiating, contacting and asking in the first few months.

 

I would say that most men are flattered by being asked out. And, most men do not end up in lasting relationships with those particular women. Perhaps someday that will change. Where it does work is where the man was about to ask out the woman anyway and she pulls the trigger first, so to speak.

[Scout]

I'm not afraid of rejection - I have asked out several men and would do it again if I thought it was an effective way to find a lasting relationship. I have seen lasting relationships arise from a woman asking out for the first date (very few, but a few) but have never heard of a lasting, happy, healthy relationship where the woman does most of the initiating, contacting and asking in the first few months.

 

I'm just referring to being the first to show interest/to ask for the first date. You and I don't have an issue with doing that, but there are many gals who do, thinking that it's the guy's job. Often because of the reasons I mentioned in a previous post.

[Batya33]

I actually do think it's the guy's role and I do have an issue with asking a man out for a first date (that it's not typically effective if you want a relationship and not just one date or a fling) but despite that opinion I can see where on rare occasions there might be an exception such as where the man is your supervisor at work and thereforeeee will not ask you out, or where he started to ask you out, was interrupted by an external situation, and then seemed thrown off by that. I know in your case - I think you said that your boyfriend was intimidated by you/didn't think he was worthy of you. For those women who are comfortable taking the initiative where the man does not feel worthy of the woman (and, I guess, showing him that he is), well sure I guess so. (sorry if I misquoted or misinterpreted how you described your relationship).

 

I do believe in women being warm, friendly, open, approachable, mentioning activities they like to do and generally creating an environment where a man who might need a little "push" for some reason will feel comfortable asking the woman out for a date.

[Salucious]

I think the women who are saying that them taking the initiative (asking guys out) isn't effective, are reading their results wrong. Did you expect it to work all the time? How can you honestly dismiss the method because it isn't always effective? The way I see it, you are at the average guy's situation when you (the woman) ask a guy out. You face rejection, so now you know how most guys feel about the whole dating game. If you are too tired/afraid of rejection in doing that then you have no business complaining that guys are too timid to ask you out or initiate things. I don't think it matters who initiates the first date. It could be this simple:

 

Guys ask out girls they are interested in as often as girls ask guys out that they are interested in.

 

Of course it isn't like this, and a girl flirting heavily doesn't count as her initiating things. Now you could choose from a bunch of reasons why this isn't the case nowadays; history of male domination in society, a natural primal instinct, whatever. I think any woman who has no problem asking out men she is interested in is a long way ahead of women who don't, and will be more confident in life and is working towards equality in the sexes. Some people will say that "that's just the way it is, accept it" but I think that is bull. They said similar things about slavery and tyrants' hold over civilizations, but they changed.

 

So in conclusion, I think this all has to do with equality of sexes. Guys are expected to initiate relationships. There is no legitimate excuse for this. I know some people will tell me it is MY fault for not accepting my role and asking girls out all the time, and that it is the only reason I can't get dates. (like I said before, that is bull). I think it is why you hear more women in their late 20s/30s complaining that they don't have a man, that "they are all taken" No, for the most part the guys are responsible for taking all the other women your age. If a girl ever complains that she doesn't have a man/boyfriend and doesn't take the initiative, I won't have any more sympathy than if a guy was in the same situation. If you are interested in a person then you should ask them out, whether you are a man or a woman. With that being said, it bothers me when women tell men they should take the initiative when they themselves never take the initiative. There shouldn't be a standard way of initiating relationships, and simply accepting our current situation as one should be considered a roadblock to equality of the sexes.

[charley]

I'm thinking of a quote: "The key to happiness is to have low expectations".

 

Is that a famous quote? If so, who said that?

 

It's a somewhat jaded sentiment, but somewhat true. Geeze. Wow. I'm starting to bum myself out. Better stop here.

[itsallgrand]

I actually do think it's the guy's role and I do have an issue with asking a man out for a first date (that it's not typically effective if you want a relationship and not just one date or a fling) ....

 

Okay. That clears up a lot for me, Batya. You are saying you believe it is the man's role to intiate initially, and prefer that. So it is your choice, and you have set up expectations accordingly.

I've frequently read your posts and agreed with the majority, feeling that your advice and perspective was keen, but couldn't understand the insistance on your part that men 'take the lead' so to speak. Your ideas about 'relationships where the woman does much of the initiating from the beginning not working out long term': my own experience is different. I don't agree with it.

But I'm grateful to understand where your opinions are coming from now.

 

I do think, in my own experience, one risk which is greater when women choose to do much initiating (which I frequently have: I can be rather aggressive and feel comfortable somewhat natural in that role),

is that many good men have not had a lot of experience of being pursued.

What sometimes happens is: they soak up the attention, love it, give many signals for a good while, but don't take it seriously.

It's almost as though they think 'hey, this is a freebie, and now I can just kick back and take'.

 

Well, NO! As a woman, is it okay to just soak up attentions and take take take without holding up with integrity and honesty along the way?

Is it okay to 'play' with men who take the risk to show genuine like and attraction, to spend time getting to know you and show their interest upfront - for your own selfish needs?

Of course not!

 

However, there is a learning curve and the more you practice the easier it is to pick these ones out and choose accordingly.

 

I can say, with 100% certainty, that a situation where both the man and the woman are comfortable switching from one role to the other, with out the impairment of strict expections which are grounded only in cultural/social expectations of one variety ....

has a way better chance of finding balance and avoiding all this troublesome shyte.

 

Confidence, taking risks and learning to accept rejection for what it is, flexibility : that is always attractive and a bonus!

 

It's no wonder that confidence is a trait which often is used as a ruler for expectations.