Battle of the sexes in the academic world

[CarnelianButterfly]

*You* didn't but a lot of women do. A lot of men do too, of course. You're right, men shouldn't make women/girls do anything but the opposite is also true. And let's not forget the intense peer pressure of the same sex, particularly women on women. In fact a girl who does boyish things is instantly accepted by the majority of boys. It's her female peers who ostracize her. The same occurs in adulhood but in different forms.

 

What about a male (let's call him Joe) who decides to break free of the norm? Some guys may think he's weird but Joe doesn't care. Joe does care about the opinions of women because like all human beings, he has emotions and wants a partner. If women think he's effeminate, wimpy or unmanly for not liking manly things, Joe is going to turn into the stereotypical guy.

Then maybe Joe needs to reevaluate the female partners he choses, if his selection is on shallow reasons and he then finds shallow women then how is it any surprise.

[Fallout]

Alright so we have two sides here...one that says women are born exactly like men psychologically-wise but society drives them into stereotypes...and another side that says there are real differences between the genders...arguments have been given - so is there a point to continue the debate? let the readers decide for themselves...

[CamGuy]

I don't say MEN do it all I say society, yes that means men and women. The society that these ideals of feminine behovior are relics from a time when women had little to no say.

 

Are you sure you want to involve geese metaphors, considering ganders are often culled from the flock and used for dinner.

 

Ha Ha. Very Cute. Believe what you want. I have no sympathy for the women's movement. Sure 50+ years ago women had their struggles. But in my experience, no one will ever be happy. Women have slowly made their way into every corner of the professional world. Women are cops, firefighters, doctors, lawyers, engineers, politicians. The sky is the limit. You seem to want to focus all your energy on what "society" tells women what they can't do.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Ha Ha. Very Cute. Believe what you want. I have no sympathy for the women's movement. Sure 50+ years ago women had their struggles. But in my experience, no one will ever be happy. Women have slowly made their way into every corner of the professional world. Women are cops, firefighters, doctors, lawyers, engineers, politicians. The sky is the limit. You seem to want to focus all your energy on what "society" tells women what they can't do.

And one day if you ever have a daughter and her guidance counselor is less than helpful what will you do then...

[CarnelianButterfly]

Alright so we have two sides here...one that says women are born exactly like men psychologically-wise but society drives them into stereotypes...and another side that says there are real differences between the genders...arguments have been given - so is there a point to continue the debate? let the readers decide for themselves...

Considering fetuses are the same until around week 14 of the pregnancy when the thyroid gland produces the hormones that determine the sex of the baby, how can you really deny that women and men are very much the similar. Men are genetically half female and men have estrogen present in their bodies just as women have testosterone. Studies have shown that testosterone is actually neurodegenerative and high levels can lead to changes in mood, memory and behavior (think steroids).

[New_Horizons]

The baby's sex is decided at conception by the father's sperm (an X or a Y chromosome). Of course women and men are similar in a lot of things, and also different in other (less important) things. Unequal doesn't translate to inferior. Women and men are unequal but neither is superior.

 

I don't understand the whole point of this thread. I think we can all agree that women in yesteryears were treated badly, as well as the fact that society still hangs on to gender stereotypes. All that means is that men and women have equal rights *and* responsibilities now. We can either stand up for our respective genders, while bashing the opposite one, or we can support each other against the more close-minded members of society. A lot of men are willing to take the second option. We're waiting for the women to do so too.

[Dako]

We can either stand up for our respective genders, while bashing the opposite one, or we can support each other against the more close-minded members of society. A lot of men are willing to take the second option. We're waiting for the women to do so too.

 

I'm not waiting at all. The woman's movement of the 70s specifically addressed men's issues but time has dimmed a few memories. I've been happy to know many women who find social pressures on men to be unfair. Some of the reasons I followed feminist ideals in those years were also men's issues.

[CamGuy]

And one day if you ever have a daughter and her guidance counselor is less than helpful what will you do then...

 

Again, I will take up MY ROLE AS A PARENT, and do the responsible thing. The only guidance counselor a child needs is their parents. Damn, not even minorities complain this much, and they have 10 times the reasons to be pissed.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Again, I will take up MY ROLE AS A PARENT, and do the responsible thing. The only guidance counselor a child needs is their parents. Damn, not even minorities complain this much, and they have 10 times the reasons to be pissed.

You don't have to read it if you consider it complaining, that is your choice...

 

And since when is discussion complaining?

[CamGuy]

You don't have to read it if you consider it complaining, that is your choice...

 

And since when is discussion complaining?

 

We'll have to just agree to disagree, then.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Still here?

 

My arguments must have some draw or you would have stopped posting pages ago.

[friscodj]

Hey CB-

 

A post close to my heart. I've been in academia and the engineering profession since 1998. I've been to 3 different graduate schools working on my Ph.D. as well. In every one, I see the same things.

 

The issue you raise is certainly one I can see bothering you and I understand the culture very well. In fact, in addition to the gender issue, there is a racial issue as well. I absolutely agree these issues exist with a doubt. I have been priveleged to have funding opportunities arise due to my U.S. citizenship in the form of scholarships and fellowships so I can relate to the position you are in which you described above.

 

The bigger issue here is getting women and people interested in engineering. Is throwing money at the problem the way to do that? I don't think so. Such programs might attract someone to a particular program, but not a profession I don't believe.

 

In my mind, this process needs to begin in high school or even grade school, with outreach programs from universities to such respects. Notice how there are no "engineering" classes in grade school or high school? Why is there the stigmata of engineering being "geeky" when so much of it deals with business, interdisciplinary research, and interpersonal communication and marketing skills necessary to acquire funding and publish research? Why are so many engineering professors hard on their students in terms of grades and workload? Why do so many engineering professors have a chip on their should and have to prove their intelligence to their students in this way? This needs to change. And this is a huge concern and issue for the profession I've seen.

 

There needs to be exposure to this necessary applied science earlier on on the educational process and there needs to be more emphasis placed on mathematics in this country. I talk with my friends from India or China and they tell me about the level of mathematics education in those countries and it absolutely puts the American educational system's equivalent to shame. I showed up to my first graduate engineering class of maybe 30-35 people where I was one of 3 Americans and we all got slaughtered. I simply did not have the background I was supposed to have. This leads to more qualified applicants to engineering graduate programs from foreign countries and substantiates a need to create incentives for not only male or female students, but American students.

 

So this is really an issue of ability and interest. I have known several bright, capable, hard-working men and women in engineering and I have known the other end as well all from different ends of the earth. If someone is good and motivated, no matter gender or race, they will gain respect in the profession. That is the common theme I have seen.

 

So with all that said, I don't see these changes taking place any time soon on a large-scale necessary to make such changes stick. The mindset I have chosen to adopt is that to focus on my work, finish my Ph.D., gain employment in academia, and make changes where I can at that time when I have more professional stature in the department and the profession. This isn't an issue one person can change, it will take a concerted effort by the profession itself and time, which from a recent conference I attended, is happening, slowly but surely.

 

I believe at this time, this is a reality of the profession, a contraint we all need to work with and not let it bother us or impede progress to bigger technological and personal goals.

[Caterina]

Interesting discussion, two thoughts and an added illustration.

 

- I take back my statement about stay at home parents being lazy. I add an exception. If they have more then one child, they aren't lazy.

 

I don't mean to be overly specific but because of the advances in the time efficiency of domestic tools/resources/organizational technology, I can't claim that it doesn't seem oddly connected to laziness that someone would make staying at home their aspiration .

 

- When people claim that men and women are hard wired differently...we don't have enough evidence in that field to make claims that it comes from anything other then societal influence. Its been proven that the brain changes due to informational input and thought processes that come from the environment...including society.

 

- I forget where I heard it, but I know of a study that gave girls a puzzle. They told one group of the girls that it was to test their skills in sewing and the other group that it was to test their skills in mechanical engineering. The girls who were told that it was to test the skills in mechanical engineering did more poorly then the other group. Now do the same thing with boys, and reverse the results. Both happened.

[CarnelianButterfly]

There needs to be exposure to this necessary applied science earlier on on the educational process and there needs to be more emphasis placed on mathematics in this country. I talk with my friends from India or China and they tell me about the level of mathematics education in those countries and it absolutely puts the American educational system's equivalent to shame. I showed up to my first graduate engineering class of maybe 30-35 people where I was one of 3 Americans and we all got slaughtered. I simply did not have the background I was supposed to have. This leads to more qualified applicants to engineering graduate programs from foreign countries and substantiates a need to create incentives for not only male or female students, but American students.

Wow friscodj I agree with you whole heartedly on pretty much everything.

 

I chose this paragraph in particular because it is something I too had a lot of trouble with. My high school was more agriculture and vocational, so the math department was very lacking. I wanted to be in advanced classes, but was held back because I moved into the district the year after the tests for gifted students were done. So I spent most of my HS time sleeping through classes and getting well over 100% grades in math, physics, and chemistry. The only classes I felt challenged in were my art classes where I made my own study plan for the semester. I got to college and found the high school math that was incredibly easy was no where near the level I needed. I needed an extra semester to graduate because I had to take more math classes to get to the level I needed to start my aero/astro courses. I got my degree in 4.5 years, which isn't bad since the average BS in my department is 4.5 years. Now that I've caught up with all the math and physics I'm doing great as a graduate student, for instance I got a 'D' in freshmen physics, but an 'A' in Advanced Orbital Mechanics. Grad level courses are by far more interesting and more educational, there's no busy work, what we do all falls together now and concepts I remember from undergrad are no longer disconnected or nebulous, but everything flows together. My work is predominately dynamics of spacecraft in multiple gravity fields, I love it and am really enjoying my thesis.

[CamGuy]

Wow, Im actually shocked. You made a somewhat compeling argument attacking this nations educational system with very little feminist agenda.

 

I will whole heartedly agree with you this nations educational system is severly flawed. And if it keeps up, this will only further cripple the youth of tomorrow. Both men, and women.

 

BTW, It just so happens you pick great topics to "discuss" (or complain about).

 

There is definitely some draw.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Wow, Im actually shocked. You made a somewhat compeling argument attacking this nations educational system with very little feminist agenda.

Feminism is not about putting women over men, its about making the field equal. There is a lot of hype as to what feminism is thought to be because of the views of several being inappropriately generalized as the views of all. Like any group there are a variety of ways ideas can be interpreted. Look at the US government, many would say its bipartisan, I say there are nearly as many parties as there are people. We may agree on things, but there are no two people that will agree on absolutely everything. The commonalities will group them, but their differences can drive them apart. I happen to disagree with some feminist about belittling men, its like replacing one dictator with another. I believe in equality and allowing people to blossom and grow as individuals regardless of sex, that means giving everyone opportunities and fair treatment.

[New_Horizons]

Feminism is not about putting women over men, its about making the field equal.

 

Yes, that's what true feminism *should* be like. Unfortunately some women have hijacked the whole idea to interpret it as "women are superior". The statement that some of these women make "a woman can do things as good as or BETTER than a man" reveals this superiority complex. This kind of warped feminism doesn't go down well with men.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Yes, that's what true feminism *should* be like. Unfortunately some women have hijacked the whole idea to interpret it as "women are superior". The statement that some of these women make "a woman can do things as good as or BETTER than a man" reveals this superiority complex. This kind of warped feminism doesn't go down well with men.

But they are only a small part of feminism. Any person that believes in the equality of people is a feminist.

[FortunateOne]

Thank you CB and Frico for articulating this to the peaceful meeting of the minds that this whole subject should boil down to. This is the mutual respect that we all need to accept and practice.

 

Our energy needs to go to the new generations by reforming the paradigm that degrades our educational system. To begin we must eliminate the power posturing of many organazation that have lost sight of what the goal is; to educate Amaricas future. It's all in the politics of who, what, where and how the money is divided.

 

What's the answer? My idea is to redo the entire educational infrastructure with a quasi-government agency that's modeled after the US Federal Reserve system. Why? Well, when FDR reformed our banking system to eliminate corruption, power and politic in 1933 he had what I consider the world's greatest economic mind (John Maynard Keynes) consult on how to go about economic reform. FDR and congress created a board that's holds 12 members, 7 from private sector and 5 from academia, which has brought stability and parity in our nations economy.

 

There has to be a concensus on eliminating the current "good litle robot" attitude in our system. This is where we must superceed our ignorant fear driven insticts with wise rational thought and why our true identity as men and women must be never be lost to in order to bring us together and make us better.

 

Just a thought.

[Cadence308]

I find your comments both insightful and interesting. My last roommate was working on a Ph.D. in bioengineering and had a double major in philosophy and bioengineering from U of CA at Berkeley. She said during her undergraduate career there were hardly any women in engineering and in some classes she was one woman out of 3-4. One of her undergraduate professors was male and she said that he totally catered to the women to make sure that they understood the concepts and did everything he could to help them succeed.

 

I think that engineering, mathematics, and some of the harder sciences, and even just pursuing academics in general have been dominated by men and now things are changing. Some men are retaliating against this because they feel that somehow it's taking away from something they feel is theirs. Women are also making it harder for other women because if they can't be a man or as a good as a man then they want to be the best woman at it.

 

Women are also supposed to be passive and not aggressive in personality or in their careers. Some men find it threatening and many women do, too.

 

I don't think I would have been very nice to the male student who was irate about women talking about womens' issues. I would have told him that he was eavesdropping on a private conversation. I feel that women have every right to talk about obstacles to obtaining an advanced degree or balancing work and family or even working in a predominantly male field.

[Slagar]

While there are some interesting points in this thread, wow, there is certainly a lot of convoluted BS. So I thought I'd add my bit

 

While it's definite that our society and views skew the lives of our future generations, it's not *solely* because of this. Generally speaking, there are actual physical differences between the male and female brains and the way they work. Generally speaking, simply because this does not hold true for all brains of a given gender.

 

I know I don't have a relevant research paper on hand to back it up, but:

If you gave a young child (male or female) the choice of a truck, or a barbie doll to play with, generally the male might choose the truck, while generally the female child might choose the doll. Some males might choose the doll, just as some females might choose the truck... but if a survey was conducted over a sufficiently large population, you would find definite trends. Is it because of the influence of society? While the old Radiation King might be pumping out advertisements incessantly, that probably have some influence, I believe the child's choice to be mostly uniquely attributed to his or her own mind.

 

In my opinion, this is the main reason that you might find engineering a less female-dominated field than say, nursing. Not because of the ideals that society gives us. I am interested in computer science and mathmatics; I don't believe I was "pressured" towards these subjects - I just like them and the way they work. I think this is because of the physical nature of my brain, not because of what society has told me. I also play sport because I find it enjoyable, not because I feel the need to play sport because I see it on television. I am also a nice guy, which is apparently also against the common trend

 

However, I do believe that fewer females that otherwise would have considered engineering as their major, haven't done so, because it is a less female-dominated field. Going to class and finding a class full of the opposite sex isn't exactly enjoyable (males, feel free to disagree with me; heh). Again, it is my understanding that, generally speaking, we naturally find it easier to relate to other people of the same sex.

 

I also believe that males and females of equal ability in an equally distributed male-female dominated field, largely have the same opportunities. I don't believe that one sex is disadvantaged here. While the inequality of distribution might skew the favour of one sex over another in a given area of expertise, the opposite could most probably be found in another profession.

 

That said, I'm all for females and males in fields dominated by the opposite sex. This is why I see the scholarships, financial aid, and extra support catered towards these minorities as a good thing. Though it sucks for the people that are of the majority and can't get those scholarships, well, that's LIFE.

 

Also, we must remember that many of society's gender stereotypes are based on what we generally like and dislike as males and females. Isn't that what marketing is all about?

 

Just my two cents.

I once saw a fascinating two-part documentary on television about the human brain, specifically based around male and female brains.

 

Irrelevant: My example with the child and toys; I can't help but want to add "and then watching her play with the cardboard box instead? Priceless." Lol

[New_Horizons]

I feel that women have every right to talk about obstacles to obtaining an advanced degree or balancing work and family or even working in a predominantly male field.

 

Overcoming those obstacles should not be done in a hostile or antagonistic manner. Lumping all men into one category is a mistake. There are misogynistic men and there are normal men who are just trying to make a living.

[Dako]

Overcoming those obstacles should not be done in a hostile or antagonistic manner. Lumping all men into one category is a mistake. There are misogynistic men and there are normal men who are just trying to make a living.

 

Aer you implying Ballys is lumping men into a category from the quote you cited? I see nothing to support it.

[New_Horizons]

Aer you implying Ballys is lumping men into a category from the quote you cited? I see nothing to support it.

 

NO, just that all men shouldn't be blamed for the misogynistic tendencies of some men (past and present). There is no sense in dividing people into two camps based on gender (and there are many women who perpetuate misogyny). It would make far more sense for women to get together with like-minded men to discuss issues.

[CarnelianButterfly]

and there are many women who perpetuate misogyny

You can't blame hatred entirely on the subject of that hatred. It really is a question of what do you chose to think. Are women hated by these men because the women acted in malice or is it because the man was taught to hate by his up bring, religion, which ever. Misogyny has been around a very long time, much longer than women have been acting out against it. What started it? Is it a chicken or egg type problem?

 

I really don't understand how you can say that, when a majority of women are asking for their rights. If you chose to hate someone for asking to be treated with respect and equity, then how is it that persons fault. Women have been held back for a very long time, most of human history (even look at the word history, our past is labeled as "his story"), but now they chose to fight for their place and you say they are perpetuating the hate against them.