Battle of the sexes in the academic world

[CamGuy]

Camguy? Go cry me a river. This thread was not asking men. It was asking women.

And femi-nazi? Yeah because everytime someone makes a sexist joke I go invade Poland.

 

It's no longer acceptable to be a man? Then why is the whole thing run by men. Get over yourself.

 

Fallout - The only natural differences are in the xx and xy shapes we have. Society does the rest.

 

 

Nice try. I love that you think the "WHOLE THING" is run by men. WHAT THING DO YOU SPEAK OF EXACTLY? What really intrigues me, is that women so often complain that society holds them back. That they are programmed from a very young age not to seek competitve and challenging careers. But to become housewives, etc. But you know, I'm willing to bet, 9 times out of 10, IT IS THE WOMANS OWN MOTHER programming these notions of gender roles in their heads. It isn't MAN's fault at all. My father eagerly pushed my sister to become competitive in school. She aced math and science classes because both me and my father encouraged her. We taught her to fix her own car, change her own brakes, change her oil. And we told her she could be anything she wanted to be. MY MOTHER on the other hand just wanted to take her shopping.

 

So if you want to blame anyone, blame your own kind.

[BellaDonna]

Just look at the maternal instict...paternal instict is different isn't it

 

I just wanted to add that I think the whole "maternal instinct" thing is over-rated. Sure, historically women have cared for young children, but that's because they were the ones producing the milk to feed them.

 

In modern society with breast pumps, bottles, and formula, both men and women are equally capable of feeding and caring for young children.

 

Also, when women become pregnant, everyone drills it into them that they are "supposed" to have this great "maternal instinct" and find nothing but joy in caring for the tiny infant on their own or with little help from the father. Then when some of these new moms realize they do not have these easy "instincts" to miraculously help them feel confident about caring for this infant on their own, post-partum depression sets in and a bunch of misery follows. I truly believe that if caring for an infant was based solely on maternal instincts, one would not see such a high incidence of post-partum depression and in the extreme/severe cases, distressed women killing or injuring their own offspring.

 

You can find many posts on here from frustrated new dads who WISH they could have more of a role in caring for the newborn, but their wives and in-laws are still living in the Dark Ages, push them away and act like the dads are dumb and incompetent and somehow inferior when it comes to caring for a child. Half the time the men aren't even allowed to try, they are cast aside and made to feel useless and isolated, so of course these dads appear to somehow know less about babies. They didn't have a choice.

 

I believe more of it has to do with environment and stereoptypes than it does with biology or supposed instincts. Sure, the love for your own newborn seems natural, but knowing what to do needs to be learned. (That's why nurses help brand new moms to figure out how to feed and care for newborn babies before they leave the hosptial.- Dads should be more involved in that process too, IMO)

 

Just from my own experience, I know that when I have a baby, my husband is going to know a heck of a lot more than I do about babies in general becaue he has always cared for infants when he babysat his nieces and nephews and younger siblings. Experience has taught him, not instincts. Experience will need to teach me too.

 

BellaDonna

[rodeo-rider]

I was handed a Barbie Doll, instead of the Tonka Truck I wanted. I am fortunate in that my father was forward thinking and saw I was more interested in working in the shop, and on the farm than my 2 brothers.

 

Dako is right on. I had to really work to get into the field I am in. I have people question why I do what I do. I then say, "Well, why do YOU do what you do"?

 

I made my daughter change her own tires, oil, install a deadbolt in her apt. door, as well as cook, clean, sew.

 

I believe there is a predisposition to teaching "technical" stuff to the boys, and "social" stuff to the girls.

[Fallout]

Wow, I can't believe this rush to deny natural instict and differences just to fit some ridiculous "politically correct" point of view.

 

From prehistoric times men were going out hunting and bringing food to the tables while women stayed home to raise the kids. Why? Animal insticts plus the physical difference...we come from apes...look at ape behavior - the male apes are warriors with an alpha male ruling over all the other females and choosing its sex mates from them. Now over a milion years of human evolution on that pattern those insticts sank in...

 

Now with civilization and the tools of technology physical strength is not important for putting food on the table...but our civilization is moving alot faster than natural evolution, so those insticts are still there!

 

Of course, everyone is different, I am talking about the majority of the population here...I am all for girls doing whatever they want to do in life and guys as well...

 

..But..really..denying the most basic human insticts even exists does nothing but hurt the equality of rights cause, as it brings the whole thing into ridicule...

[agent1607307371]

My own kind?

 

Because of course women are an entirely different species than men.

 

Yeah, women are programmed by society. Thats what I've been saying here.

You had a progressive Father? Thats great, I have one too!

But many people don't.

And they don't stop to consider that because something has been that way for a long time, isn't the best way for it to be or the way it should always be.

[DN]

link removed

[BellaDonna]

..But..really..denying the most basic human insticts even exists does nothing but hurt the equality of rights cause, as it brings the whole thing into ridicule...

 

I am not denying history and the way that humans lived in the past in hunter-gatherer societies. I guess what I am not buying is the idea that all these behaviors were purely "instinctual". They existed in a context just like anything else.

 

If there were no bottles, no breast pumps, no formula- and the women are the ones that MUST be relied upon for the babies to survive for food reasons, then it makes perfect sense that the males would go out and hunt the rest of the food for the adults and those no longer breast-feeding.

 

In modern society we are not confined to these types of extreme situations/contexts for survival. My husband can feed a child with a bottle and no longer has to harpoon a wild animal so we can eat. I do not need to gather berries and feed babies with my milk. Even if such maternal/paternal instincts did exist (although I'm inclined to believe that they were actually contextual environmental responses- not instincts) they are no longer are needed today. The "instincts" (if they ever did exist) are probably extinct by now.

 

I just can't see how a having a penis or vagina could affect a person's ability to hold, feed, change, comfort, & love a baby. I don't think it's an acceptable excuse anymore to say that men and women are differnet in their parenting instincts, and that this leads to differences in caring for a baby. The baby belongs to both the father and mother, and both are able to love and care for that baby just the same (assuming they want to).

 

 

 

BellaDonna

[Dako]

Somehow when we revert to the old view of preordained gender role from prehistory, I wonder how many antropologists who interpreted these traits were men? Females may well have been more involved in hunting than commonly thought.

After all, female lions do the hunting for the pride.

 

Even Rush Limbaugh, the fellow who popularized the term Feminazi, was divorced by his first wife for laying on the couch all day smoking dope and eating junkfood.

[DN]

No one really knows what happened in pre-history, that is why it is called pre-history.

 

It is true however that the practice of women staying home to look after the kids while men went out to earn the living is a recent phenomenon in human history - it started as a result of the industrial revolution, began in the middle classes in the late nineteenth century and was at its full strength in the 1950s and then slowly declined.

 

Prior to that most men and women worked in or around their own homes or in their own locality before the introduction of factories. So did children before the introduction of free education for all classes of people when the school leaving age was 14.

 

Taking a set of social living conditions from a brief period of time for a small class of people is not a good way to judge the norm then - or to predict societal norms in the future.

[CamGuy]

My own kind?

 

Because of course women are an entirely different species than men.

 

Yeah, women are programmed by society. Thats what I've been saying here.

You had a progressive Father? Thats great, I have one too!

But many people don't.

And they don't stop to consider that because something has been that way for a long time, isn't the best way for it to be or the way it should always be.

 

 

You know exactly what I mean. I will level with ya. In the past, women were definitely held back. But nowadays, you can accomplish anything. This isnt about fathers being progessive. I highly doubt there are many fathers out there that would want to hold their own daughters back from seeking out lucrative careers. Every man I know wants to raise their daughter to be successful and prosperous. And to not depend on a man. If women are still programmed by society, than I say "society" IS women.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Society is everyone. Society is media and school and all the influence on women that shows them the rolls that are acceptable. A half naked model in a beer ad is part of society and it effects how women see themselves. They see sex is a way to get attention and that they are reduced to a body and not a mind. They are taught in school about history that lacks any mention of females, the womens suffrage movement wasn't discussed in my school.

[CamGuy]

Society is everyone. Society is media and school and all the influence on women that shows them the rolls that are acceptable. A half naked model in a beer ad is part of society and it effects how women see themselves. They see sex is a way to get attention and that they are reduced to a body and not a mind. They are taught in school about history that lacks any mention of females, the womens suffrage movement wasn't discussed in my school.

 

No teaching of women's suffrage? Are you kidding? Not sure what kinda of school you went to, but I was drilled with quite a bit of women's history. As for markering campaigns and the notion of "sex sells".....the best way to beat something is to not give into it. Im sorry, but I hate when people continue to play the victim role. "Im fat because McDonalds foods are addictive" "Why are the Victorea Secret Girls so thin, Perhaps I need to stop eating?" "If Britney Spears and Paris Hilton are , perhaps I should be one too!"

 

It's all a matter of common sense. People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions. This doesn't mean women are entirely to blame for their hardships on this world, however, instead of complaining, it is much more productive to be proactive in situations like these. We do not have to buy into "society" and pop culture.

[Fallout]

Belladonna : being a man is more than being a person with a penis, and being a woman is more than being a person with breasts and a vagina.. My point was those insticts are still strong within most people, humans are just animals with a big brain but still have animal instincts.

 

Dako : lionesses hunt, but humans come from apes not lions, that's why I was giving the example of ape behavior. And there are plenty of women antropologists..

 

For instance it is proven that women are better at tedious, repetitive jobs while men get bored more easily and are less efficient...that's why there are more women secretaries, tailors, etc.

 

It is very wrong to deny someone the opportunity of choice with their own life, but imposing a "politically correct" vision on society is very wrong and can only lead to bad things...nowadays in societies where women have equal opportunities the career distribution is primarily personal choice

[CarnelianButterfly]

We do not have to buy into "society" and pop culture.

You don't at 26, but you have logic and 26 years of development to decide what you will believe. A 12 year old girl doesn't have the mental maturity to know everything an adult does, and she is still subject to the whims of her parents, peers and the constant bombardment of the media. Children don't think of the moral and social ramefications of their actions, they think in terms of immediate gratification. They strive to make others happy because they are looking for acceptance.

[Dako]

And there are plenty of women antropologists..

 

If there are, it's a relatively new phenomenon brought about by the recent advancement of women into the sciences, the very point of this thread.

[CamGuy]

You don't at 26, but you have logic and 26 years of development to decide what you will believe. A 12 year old girl doesn't have the mental maturity to know everything an adult does, and she is still subject to the whims of her parents, peers and the constant bombardment of the media. Children don't think of the moral and social ramefications of their actions, they think in terms of immediate gratification. They strive to make others happy because they are looking for acceptance.

 

Right, BUT A 12 yr old girl HAS HER PARENTS. I cannot be blammed, (nor you) for shoddy parenting. My parents taught both me AND my sister about the BS cloud that surrounds pop culture and society from a very young age. As should all parents. Again, people need to take responsibility for their actions.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Right, BUT A 12 yr old girl HAS HER PARENTS. I cannot be blammed, (nor you) for shoddy parenting. My parents taught both me AND my sister about the BS cloud that surrounds pop culture and society from a very young age. As should all parents. Again, people need to take responsibility for their actions.

Not everyone knows what they are doing to their children though. How many people really look at the labels on food, unless they have allergies, for instance peanut butter. Read the label, there are so many things in there, sugar, oils, perservatives, its processed, packaged and people are told its a good snack for protein, when it hardly even resembles real peanut butter. How easy is it to find natural real peanut butter, you have maybe one brand out of dozens of processed brands. People don't know all the junk in that peanut butter is really bad for their children, they haven't been educated as to what those thing really are or do in a body. They just know what's on sale or what commercial they saw.

[agent1607307371]

For instance it is proven that women are better at tedious, repetitive jobs while men get bored more easily and are less efficient...that's why there are more women secretaries, tailors, etc.

 

I actually read a study that put forward the hypothesis that women were better at settling down to work due to household chores given to them as children..

 

and even 80 years ago secretarial work for men...

 

Society changes, our understanding of ourself changes.

[CamGuy]

Not everyone knows what they are doing to their children though. How many people really look at the labels on food, unless they have allergies, for instance peanut butter. Read the label, there are so many things in there, sugar, oils, perservatives, its processed, packaged and people are told its a good snack for protein, when it hardly even resembles real peanut butter. How easy is it to find natural real peanut butter, you have maybe one brand out of dozens of processed brands. People don't know all the junk in that peanut butter is really bad for their children, they haven't been educated as to what those thing really are or do in a body. They just know what's on sale or what commercial they saw.

 

Now we are comparing this fued to processed foods? Listen, There are millions of ignorant people out there that not only know nothing about reality, but also shouldn't be allowed to procreate in the first place. But it is the nature of the beast. To me, it is simply a prime example of Social Darwanism. As a parent, it is your responsibility to educate yourself, and know exactly what shady sources can influence your kids.

[New_Horizons]

Well, male and female brains *are* hardwired differently. This has been scientifically established and there is nothing sexist about this statement. They are not equal in the sense two apples from the store are equal.That being said, every man or woman (boy or girl) is different and should be allowed to choose his or her path. Boys are more likely to play with cars because the concept of cars, machines and Lego tickles their brains better than dolls. This is not an absolute truth and there are plenty of exceptions in both genders. Problems arise when society studies this and decides that what's good for 6 out of 10 boys is good for every male in the world.

 

I played with dolls when I was young. My parents encouraged me to do so and so did my female cousins. There was never anything odd about it. But I gradually lost interest and instead cultivated an interest in radio controlled cars that went at 20 mph.

[Fallout]

Right on horizons...that's what I've been trying to say all along without success. Problems also arrise when society, when going on the "politically correct" path tries to make those 6 out of 10 girls act like the other 4 out of 10...

[CarnelianButterfly]

Right on horizons...that's what I've been trying to say all along without success. Problems also arrise when society, when going on the "politically correct" path tries to make those 6 out of 10 girls act like the other 4 out of 10...

Where have I said make them do anything, just allow them to do whatever they want without all the preconcieved ideas as to what you men think women want.

 

NH, I played with Legos, tinker toys, model airplanes. Most boys do play with dolls any way, but they are called action figures, but the concept is very much the same, they get guns and scuba gear instead of brushes and mini-skirts.

[CamGuy]

Where have I said make them do anything, just allow them to do whatever they want without all the preconcieved ideas as to what you men think women want.

 

NH, I played with Legos, tinker toys, model airplanes. Most boys do play with dolls any way, but they are called action figures, but the concept is very much the same, they get guns and scuba gear instead of brushes and mini-skirts.

 

Come on! Quit this non-sense. This isn't just based of PRECONCIEVED ideas as to what MEN THINK. My father never bought my sister a brush or a mini-skirt. i dont even think the man knew where to find one. Men are not the BAD GUYS here CB. And if a traditional mother want's to pass along her brainwashed ideals to her daughter, why is that my fault? Why is it any of our faults? To each their own. Just remember, what's good for the goose, isn't always good for the gander.

 

Maybe it is tough being a woman. Infact, I am sure it is. But you ever stop to think men get sick for being blamed for everything?

[New_Horizons]

Where have I said make them do anything, just allow them to do whatever they want without all the preconcieved ideas as to what you men think women want.

 

 

*You* didn't but a lot of women do. A lot of men do too, of course. You're right, men shouldn't make women/girls do anything but the opposite is also true. And let's not forget the intense peer pressure of the same sex, particularly women on women. In fact a girl who does boyish things is instantly accepted by the majority of boys. It's her female peers who ostracize her. The same occurs in adulhood but in different forms.

 

What about a male (let's call him Joe) who decides to break free of the norm? Some guys may think he's weird but Joe doesn't care. Joe does care about the opinions of women because like all human beings, he has emotions and wants a partner. If women think he's effeminate, wimpy or unmanly for not liking manly things, Joe is going to turn into the stereotypical guy.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Come on! Quit this non-sense. This isn't just based of PRECONCIEVED ideas as to what MEN THINK. My father never bought my sister a brush or a mini-skirt. i dont even think the man knew where to find one. Men are not the BAD GUYS here CB. And if a traditional mother want's to pass along her brainwashed ideals to her daughter, why is that my fault? Why is it any of our faults? To each their own. Just remember, what's good for the goose, isn't always good for the gander.

 

Maybe it is tough being a woman. Infact, I am sure it is. But you ever stop to think men get sick for being blamed for everything?

I don't say MEN do it all I say society, yes that means men and women. The society that these ideals of feminine behovior are relics from a time when women had little to no say.

 

Are you sure you want to involve geese metaphors, considering ganders are often culled from the flock and used for dinner.