Battle of the sexes in the academic world

[New_Horizons]

If I was a lesbian, I still wouldn't want my partner to stay at home. That kind of dynamic is not condusive to current society, no matter the sex of the person. I don't want a lazy partner.

 

It's not laziness. One or both partners has to do the housework, looking after kids, etc. I just don't think it should be forced on anyone. By the same token, either gender should have the choice to stay at home.

 

As for what affronts women every day...one could say the same about most men. As a man, I am at far greater risk of being assaulted. As a man, I have fewer support resources if I'm having problems.

[CarnelianButterfly]

By all means, encouraging women to seek more lucrative careers is fine. But, in hindsight, I just think men and women have differnet tastes. i think generally speaking, women would be more interested in a nursing career than an engineering career. Not because they CANT be engineers. Nor because they are held back by society. But because I believe it is interests them more. Not to mention, nurses make GREAT salaries here in the state of California, at least. 70K - 90K to start is impressive. Man or Woman.

If women don't like the sciences, then why are more and more enrolling in them? Each year the numbers increase a little more and each year organizations encouraging women in those areas push more. I lived in a dorm of all women engineering students, they had the variety of backgrounds and personalities of any group of women, but they all chose to be engineers.

[gnabna]

If I was a lesbian, I still wouldn't want my partner to stay at home. That kind of dynamic is not condusive to current society, no matter the sex of the person. I don't want a lazy partner.

 

But staying at home doesn't mean they are lazy, it means they don't get paid for the work they do. Maitaining a household, raising children, cooking, cleaning, lawn care, bills, repairs, shopping, and the many other things that stay at home partners do are not trivial tasks. I know many poeple that are the home based partner that actually work much harder than the employed person. Their hours are all day and they're only payment is that they are the support structure for the partner at work. It depends on what dynamic works best for each family unit, but just because money is not involved in the work done does not make that work any less important.

 

Thank you very much CarnelianButterfly and New Horizons for responding to this statement. As most of my adult life has been spent as a stay at home Mom I find that my duties of raising four amazing people, keeping up with their studies, chauffeuring to events such as dance class, my son's soccer games, musicals/plays/casting calls and concerts that they have all been in, too many practices to list, Boy Scout's, serving as Coach of my daughters Soccer team, volunteering at the younger three's school, cooking, cleaning & running a household WITHOUT a maid, genuinely getting to know their friends and having so many parties and events here in my home, plus maintain my own schedule with two other volunteer slots I fill weekly, a small group leader, an enrichment class, plus pursuing my hobbies/sports/gym time and numerous social functions..... So pretty much what I am stating is while i can get VERY TIRED at times- I rarely see myself as lazy.

 

 

Sorry for the rambling The list coulda been longer, so be happy that teetering on my soap box much longer would make me burn the chicken!!!

[CamGuy]

If women don't like the sciences, then why are more and more enrolling in them? Each year the numbers increase a little more and each year organizations encouraging women in those areas push more. I lived in a dorm of all women engineering students, they had the variety of backgrounds and personalities of any group of women, but they all chose to be engineers.

 

And yet, you only make up just under 14% of your class. Again, I was speaking generally. I am not here to disprove the fact perhaps more and more women are becoming interested in engineering. What I am saying, is that I believe on a grand scale of things, engineering interests men, more than interests women. Can that change? Sure it can. And I am sure it will. Will female engineers every outnumber men, I highly doubt it. And it's not because women can't. I firmly believe women to be smarter than men. (YES, YOU HEARD THAT CORRECTLY). but we still have different interests.

[agent1607307371]

Males and females are taught to be interested in different things. But ultimately it comes down to the preferences of the individual, and the individual may not always have the strength to go against what they're told they should be interested in.

 

We make up 14% currently. What percentage did we make up 10 years ago? 20? Imagine what we'll make up in 10 years, 20..

 

 

Though isn't it interesting to see the phenomenom referred to in the initial post occurring here in the thread...

[CarnelianButterfly]

And yet, you only make up just under 14% of your class. Again, I was speaking generally. I am not here to disprove the fact perhaps more and more women are becoming interested in engineering. What I am saying, is that I believe on a grand scale of things, engineering interests men, more than interests women. Can that change? Sure it can. And I am sure it will. Will female engineers every outnumber men, I highly doubt it. And it's not because women can't. I firmly believe women to be smarter than men. (YES, YOU HEARD THAT CORRECTLY). but we still have different interests.

But why does it not interest women? What is it that you think doesn't interest women, you only say they don't like it, but why? What is it that influences their choice? The fact is our culture still pushes women away from those subjects. You say they lack interest, I say they are not given a chance to even like it because society grooms women to be do things more toward the nurture and care professions. Things that are stereotyped as what women like, but in actuality its what they've been forced to like over years of sexist gender role assignments. Girls pre-adolescence have the same interests as boys, but when the start showing more female characteristics, society imposes strict standards on them as to what they should do, like, want. Puberty doesn't decrease the intelligence of the individual, but many studies show that in the leap from childhood to teenager, girls suddenly become less interested in math and science. Estrogen isn't doing that, breasts and hips are not going to change algebra, why does it happen though? Because small minds force them into gender roles where math and science are secondary to the expectations placed on them as young women.

[New_Horizons]

It's too bad that men lack the solidarity or willpower to form their own groups to help fund men to get into careers that they previously had no access to. It works both ways; both sexes have been stereotyped both by their own sex and by the opposite sex. Both sexes have been encouraged towards some careers and barred from others.

 

Your point is well taken CB. I just don't think women have a monopoly on the "we have been discriminated against". Young men are also forced to fit into a masculine image, and the most vocal supporters of this image are women. If women dropped their popular support of this stereotype, why would men cling on to it? Certainly not to please other men, we couldn't care less what other men think.

[CarnelianButterfly]

It's too bad that men lack the solidarity or willpower to form their own groups to help fund men to get into careers that they previously had no access to. It works both ways; both sexes have been stereotyped both by their own sex and by the opposite sex. Both sexes have been encouraged towards some careers and barred from others.

 

Your point is well taken CB. I just don't think women have a monopoly on the "we have been discriminated against". Young men are also forced to fit into a masculine image, and the most vocal supporters of this image are women. If women dropped their popular support of this stereotype, why would men cling on to it? Certainly not to please other men, we couldn't care less what other men think.

Very much true. Gender rolls have become so ridiculously out dated. The roll men are forced into is just as bad as it is for women. Look at guys that don't like sports, they get labeled sissy or wuss. They have as much right not to like it as the men that do, but because they are going against the norm its accepted to ridicule or harass them. People should not be confined to rules or ideas of what they should or should not be, they should be allowed to do what they want to do. Men have as much need for support as women, but they are seen as being weak if they take it, how is that right?

[New_Horizons]

Thanks for understanding. Society doesn't understand that men are human beings too and we need sympathy, empathy and gooey lovey-dovey support when we're feeling down. OK, maybe not all men but definitely some. There are many times I wish I were born a woman. I would at least be understood or excused for showing my unhappiness. I hate putting up a brave face and pretending nothing's wrong. And yet that is what I have to do.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Thanks for understanding. Society doesn't understand that men are human beings too and we need sympathy, empathy and gooey lovey-dovey support when we're feeling down. OK, maybe not all men but definitely some. There are many times I wish I were born a woman. I would at least be understood or excused for showing my unhappiness. I hate putting up a brave face and pretending nothing's wrong. And yet that is what I have to do.

Its really sad that you have to. I don't like that any one has to hide their real feelings or opinions. Internalizing pain or emotions can be very detrimental to a person mental health. Women often have a support structure with in our social groups where we can be more open about our emotions and readily discuss them without embarrassment or fear. Men don't have that structure, other men are usually threatened or threatening when a man falls out of the step with the group he gets verbally chastise and put back in his place. What purpose does that serve?

[Fallout]

CamGuy you seem to be a pretty angry person...judging from other posts of yours as well...but there's no need to take it out on people here.

 

CB : I think it's ridiculous to assume the only differences between males and females are the genitalia and physical strength,...look at little girls and boys...most little girls choose to play with dolls while little boys choose to play with cars or action figures...and no that's not because of what's imposed to them, they naturally like that best. Don't get me wrong I don't think you're an extreme feminist or anything like that....you are against stereotyping and that's ok but there are natural differences to be considered...

[agent1607307371]

Camguy? Go cry me a river. This thread was not asking men. It was asking women.

And femi-nazi? Yeah because everytime someone makes a sexist joke I go invade Poland.

 

It's no longer acceptable to be a man? Then why is the whole thing run by men. Get over yourself.

 

Fallout - The only natural differences are in the xx and xy shapes we have. Society does the rest.

[Fallout]

No agent I don't think so...look at the way most girls and most boys play as children....it's only natural and it would be just as wrong to put pressure on girls to do something they're not interested in as it is to deny them the chance to do what they're interesed in...

 

Of course I'm talking about the majority here, sure some girls will be inclined to choose a predominantly male career and vice versa and there's nothing wrong with that...but saying all the fields should be 50% male 50% female just because it seems right to you is wrong...people should do what they choose not what others choose for them.

[agent1607307371]

And the same is true of boy children.

 

But if you don't think that most children pick up the toys they're told to play with then thats your perogative.

 

And I never said that the fields should be 50/50. I said that society and preconceived gender roles have a greater influence over the areas they do go into than they are given credit for.

[Fallout]

Yes the same is true for both children...and there are plenty of familys with opposite sex siblings where nobody forces them to play with anything...hell I grew up in one...the truth is *most* males and females think and feel in different ways and want different things from the world...that's just the way it is doesn't mean women are inferior or anything.

 

Stereotypes in my view only hurt those who are more in touch with their opposite-gender side....

[agent1607307371]

Nobody said force. It's much more subtle than that. Though I do know a few people where it has happened like that.. I'm not saying that it's a terrible thing, rather that it does impose limits and roles on children that they often do not choose for themselves.

 

Stereotypes hurt everyone. Because they are not based on fact, rather on one facet of an idea that is then expanded out of proportion.

 

I also enjoy the implication that they only hurt people who are not "proper" men or women.

[Fallout]

I enjoy you miscontruing my comments as well...I never implied anything to do with being "proper" so there's no reason to go there

 

What you are suggesting is that people are brainwashed to the degree they deny their true self and act the way their brainwashers want them to...do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Let's see...most teenage girls have slumber parties and boys play sports or watch them on tv with a beer in hand...but you're saying that's not by choice, it's because they're made to?

[agent1607307371]

No, I'm saying its the way we're taught by society.

 

Or do you think that the things we're exposed to through our cultures has absolutely no bearing on the way we act and think at all?

[CarnelianButterfly]

No agent I don't think so...look at the way most girls and most boys play as children....it's only natural and it would be just as wrong to put pressure on girls to do something they're not interested in as it is to deny them the chance to do what they're interesed in...

 

Of course I'm talking about the majority here, sure some girls will be inclined to choose a predominantly male career and vice versa and there's nothing wrong with that...but saying all the fields should be 50% male 50% female just because it seems right to you is wrong...people should do what they choose not what others choose for them.

As soon as the doctor says the baby is boy or girl they are either put in a pink or blue blanket. That baby is groomed from birth to be girl or boy, behavior is modified and influenced constantly, how do you know not to pee in your pants any more, were naturally inclined to go to the restroom, No, you were taught.

[Fallout]

Yes, they have bearing but not enough to destroy half of the world's true-self and make them become something they're really not...

[CarnelianButterfly]

I enjoy you miscontruing my comments as well...I never implied anything to do with being "proper" so there's no reason to go there

 

What you are suggesting is that people are brainwashed to the degree they deny their true self and act the way their brainwashers want them to...do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Let's see...most teenage girls have slumber parties and boys play sports or watch them on tv with a beer in hand...but you're saying that's not by choice, it's because they're made to?

You need to read a book called Reviving Ophelia , its one of the first really in depth studies into teenage female developement. People aren't brainwashed they're relegated to conform by societal standards from their peers and adults. All children's behavior are changed by their parents to fit what those parents deem acceptable. Look at language, a child picks up language and communication even before they can speak, but how is it that could speak French instead of English? My family is genetically German and French as much as I am genetically female, but I speak English, why, because that is what I learned.

[Fallout]

I'm aware of that carnelian...but there are milions of family that don't impose on their girls to play with dolls instead of toy cars, wear skirts instead of jeans and go to beauty school instead of becoming rocket scientists...and most girls in those familys still do those things that most other girls do;...why? because it's natural to them

[CarnelianButterfly]

I'm aware of that carnelian...but there are milions of family that don't impose on their girls to play with dolls instead of toy cars, wear skirts instead of jeans and go to beauty school instead of becoming rocket scientists...and most girls in those familys still do those things that most other girls do;...why? because it's natural to them

Do you really think that females are hard wired to play with dolls? It only appears natural because that is what the standard has been for so long. The family may not do it directly but there are many subtle things done to steer girls one direction versus another. How can you argue boys are more naturally inclined to play with cars when cars them selves have only been a part of human culture for a very short period of time. How can something that has only recently appeared in our evolutionary time line become a natural aspect of one sex?

[Fallout]

Well cars as a symbol of power..speed etc. and dolls as a symbol of child care.

 

I'm sure in the middle ages most boys were playing little war games while girls were playing with rag dolls or something...

 

Look how can you say men and women are the same mentally/psychologically ? Just look at the maternal instict...paternal instict is different isn't it ? Or most women care way more and are most self conscious about their looks and clothes, makeup etc....or most women like to be held in the arms of their bfs instead of holding their bfs in their arms...and the examples could go on forever

[agent1607307371]

I'm aware of that carnelian...but there are milions of family that don't impose on their girls to play with dolls instead of toy cars, wear skirts instead of jeans and go to beauty school instead of becoming rocket scientists...and most girls in those familys still do those things that most other girls do;...why? because it's natural to them

 

And not at all because they're exposed to the ideas that females do that by their mothers, fathers, grandparents, schoolfriends, teachers, books, magazines and tv. Those factors have absolutely no power over behaviour at all. Ok, right..

 

Well cars as a symbol of power..speed etc. and dolls as a symbol of child care.

 

I'm sure in the middle ages most boys were playing little war games while girls were playing with rag dolls or something...

 

Look how can you say men and women are the same mentally/psychologically ? Just look at the maternal instict...paternal instict is different isn't it ? Or most women care way more and are most self conscious about their looks and clothes, makeup etc....or most women like to be held in the arms of their bfs instead of holding their bfs in their arms...and the examples could go on forever

 

What about the people who lack that instinct? Women are taught to be image conscious. Do you know how society can treat women who don't conform to the norm? It's not actually anywhere near pleasent. Pressure is a powerful force.

 

And little boys are naturally looking for symbols of power while little girls look for symbols of nurturing?

Women and men are bombarded every day with examples of what we should be. If our mind didn't pick it up, we wouldn't be the way we are.

 

Humans take neutral actions/icons/objects and assign them meanings that wouldn't otherwise be there.

 

Whats natural is that children don't have toys. We don't form family units the way we do,don't mate for life, start breeding women from the moment they first menstruate and eat unwanted young. Thats nature and there is very little that is natural about the society in which we exist.