Games, Revenge Within Relationships?

[CrossCheck75]

Howdy. Many of you may have followed my recent thread "She is only Romantic when Drinking." Essentially, where that thread leaves off is where this one begins.

 

So, as previously stated, we're currently post-NC after an abbreviated period. She was very distraught when I enacted the NC, time out policy. She was convinced that she lost/was losing me, so several emotionally-wrenching days of crying and sending me texts/emails ensued. Her outpouring of emotion prompted me to kill the NC and I'd hoped we could have seamlessly gotten back on track, resuming where we left off.

 

Now, we're talking and have both acknowledged that the relationship is alive, though not with the pace and stability to my liking. Somehow, things have changed. Our plans to move in together in January have been scrapped or postponed. She is unwilling to discuss with me our misgivings and perceived obstacles to success in our relationship. I can understand keeping it light, but I likewise understand the need for resolution when several factors have caused us to enter into the intial NC period anyway. I can't help but feel as though we're spinning wheels in a state of limbo.

 

I hate limbo! It is truth, certainty, and absoluteness that I seek. I am trying to develop some patience here, but it still seems that I'm hitting my head repeatedly against a brick wall when it comes to opening up protracted, sincere, meaningful dialogue with my woman. I sense that perhaps she is currently still hurt over my NC stage, and is procrastinating engaging me in such deep discussion out of fear of disallowing emotional wounds to heal.

 

Now she is declaring a need for some time away, need for space, entertaining doubts that we are meant to be, etc. I can wholeheartedly respect that, except it is her timing that I find curious. As if, somehow, she fought tooth and nail to win me back, got what she wanted, and now is taking the liberty of dropping a proverbial bomb on me. Games, ya know?

 

Most of you are probably somewhat familiar with Dr. John Gray's "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." This is a popular book illustrating the inherent differences between the sexes and the contrast in how they respectively approach and behave in relationships.

 

Gray speaks of men "retreating to caves" periodically, when they sense that conflict has become futile and are exasperated. Their female counterparts, almost invariably, feel slighted and dejected by this retreat. Gray advises women to simply give their men the time needed to cool down, to refuel the tank so to speak. When the men emerge from the cave, they are fully recharged and very much in love! Gray goes on to urge women to accept their emerging cave-dwellers lovingly, with arms wide open. For this is a natural and recurring cycle in relationships.

 

Well, so here I have emerged from my first visit to my cave in this nine-month relationship, ready to dive headlong back into the heart of the woman I love, and fully prepared to sit and address both of our perceived problems within the relationship. Low and behold, I'm not being lovingly welcomed out of this cave. Rather, she's taken 3 steps back and cast us further into limbo.

 

ARRGGHH... I hate all this strategizing and analyzing. I just want to say flat out, "Look, I love you, you love me. Fantastic. Now let's work on fixing whatever bugs may have caused us some turbulence. Then we move on healthier, stronger, happier." 'Tis not so easy when dealing with a woman who feels scorned or hurt.

 

Why, why, why? ](*,)

[DN]

I just want to say flat out, "Look, I love you, you love me. Fantastic. Now let's work on fixing whatever bugs may have caused us some turbulence. Then we move on healthier, stronger, happier."

I think you should say exactly that but add that if she can't or won't then you are going to have to let her go and move on to someone who understand what being in a relationship means.

[sumguy]

'Tis not so easy when dealing with a woman who feels scorned or hurt.

 

Hell Hath No Fury...

 

Just out of interest, what does "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" have to say about this?

[25thfloor]

i think the part of men retreating and women advancing is true. but i'll tell ya, i don't play that game. if i'm with a man and he retreats...sure...we all need space....but i'll be damned if i'm going to keep welcoming him back after i get the 'cold chill' for days. thats totaly immature crap. like dn said, either you're in a relationship or your not. i can't stand that moody behavior. and the funny thing is.....it's the men that are moody (in my life) not the women! ha....oh, and by the way...we've all been scorned and we've all been hurt. it's what makes love taste so good. at some point, she's got to grow up and take care of her own emotional needs.

[CrossCheck75]

I think you should say exactly that but add that if she can't or won't then you are going to have to let her go and move on to someone who understand what being in a relationship means.

 

Yes, that is the obvious, sensible thing to do. I have, except in considerably less crude, more poetic terms. I've been through this with other women I've dated and it appears that once they're hurt they just can't snap back into the old program the way men can (it's a generalization, but is one based upon my personal experiences). I feel no need to apologize (though I did) for initiating the NC period weeks ago, as I felt it was the appropriate course of action given the sticking point at which we've arrived on a few issues in our relationship. Now is the time for the usual foot-dragging and beating around the bush, until her hurt subsides and she is ready to openly embrace me/us again. I am sensitive to her pain, and it's not as if I haven't had my share of heartache through this, but for crying out loud... I'm ready to get this show back on the road and introduce solutions, rather than dwelling on past emotions.

[CrossCheck75]

When I read your post...I had a fear that she was trying to get "back" at you for going NC on her...by pulling back herself.

 

Bingo, Jazzgirl. That's why I titled the post "revenge." Curious timing, indeed. It has been my experience that women either never fully heal, or else it drags on indefinitely, weighing on their hearts as they dwell upon past conflicts. Apparently I am (or men, in general, are) more resilient in terms of rebounding from conflict and being able to look forward rather than backward.

[CarnelianButterfly]

Gray speaks of men "retreating to caves" periodically, when they sense that conflict has become futile and are exasperated. Their female counterparts, almost invariably, feel slighted and dejected by this retreat. Gray advises women to simply give their men the time needed to cool down, to refuel the tank so to speak. When the men emerge from the cave, they are fully recharged and very much in love! Gray goes on to urge women to accept their emerging cave-dwellers lovingly, with arms wide open. For this is a natural and recurring cycle in relationships.

 

Did you retreat just to get the welcome back or did you retreat to really consider you relationship and take time to work on yourself?

 

Why not let her go to her cave if you've had your trip to your's. Maybe your retreat has given her a wake up call that maybe she needs to evaluate and think on what your relationship really means to her. I say let her cool down and refuel, you're the one who just emotionally blasted her out of the water. You can't expect her to conform to some book written to line someone's pockets. Look at the premiss it sets up, men do what you want, women just accept it. Thats a little selfish, don't you think? You can do as you chose, but totally disallow her from acting the same way, there isn't much fairness or balance in that.

 

Games are no way to develop a meaningful relationship, you need respect, consideration, trust and care. Toying with each others emotions and manipulative tactics do nothing but breed resentment and eventually cause the relationship to fail.

[friscodj]

She was very distraught when I enacted the NC, time out policy...

 

As if, somehow, she fought tooth and nail to win me back, got what she wanted, and now is taking the liberty of dropping a proverbial bomb on me. Games, ya know?

 

ARRGGHH... I hate all this strategizing and analyzing.

 

Why, why, why? ](*,)

 

Hey bro, I agree with what everyone else is telling you.

 

I would also like to toss my $.02 into this...

 

I believe your fundamental view on relationships is a little flawed here. Viewing a relationship as something to which to "enact policies", the "games", "fighting to win", "strategizing and analyzing" will lead to a lot of headaches, frustration, and pain and suffering in the long run. Even though it could be said these things happen viscerally in all relationships, your perception of them this way is not healthy...

 

And you ask "why"? The answer is there doesn't have to be a "why"? You sound like you're a general fighting a war here. It doesn't have to be like that and this is entirely up to you to decide.

 

From my experience, people play the games, do the song and dance, but eventually, in time, throw their hands up out of frustration and come clean with genuine honesty anyway...so why not by-pass the Normandy invasion and just communicate your true feelings and wants to her and go from there?

 

My guess is because you are afraid of the truth, and I understand that. Think of it like this. Every relationship has an underlying truth about where people's feelings are, their interest, and the healthiness of the chemistry you have together. The truth is there but I feel people dance around it with these games because they are afraid of it. They would rather play the games than face rejection.

 

What ends up happening, at least for me, is as this is going on, you get sucked into the situation, trying to figure her out, trying to figure out the "best" thing to do, and you completely lose perspective on the truth beneath this whole thing. And what's worse, when you're involved in the situation like this, residual feelings of attachment and the desire to "win" creep in and stick you to a bad situation like super glue. And then you're stuck, left with the only other choice of ripping yourself away from the situation and losing a lot of skin in the process...

 

Go find the truth beneath this, if you can't see it already. Don't be afraid of the answer because finding it, in the long run, will be a hell of a lot better than continuing to fight this war with this woman...

[CrossCheck75]

Did you retreat just to get the welcome back or did you retreat to really consider you relationship and take time to work on yourself?

 

Why not let her go to her cave if you've had your trip to your's... Thats a little selfish, don't you think? You can do as you chose, but totally disallow her from acting the same way, there isn't much fairness or balance in that.

 

Carnelian, certainly the latter-- I initiated a time-out to better objectively assess the state of the relationship and try to arrive at solutions, assuming that I'd decided that I wanted to persist with the relationship. Pushing a partner away for a desired result of having them beg me to return has never been a tactic I would have employed-- even as a teenager when people routinely play such games. I'm not into cheap, manipulative tactics.

 

If you think Dr. Gray's analogy of the cave is flawed, that is fine by me as I don't stand to make a cent from the book's sales. It did make perfect sense to me, however, insofar as at least illustrating quite objectively routine behavioral patterns in relationships and stamping them with a specific gender-based causality. The book, by the way, was written not to empower disgruntled men, but to assist both members of a heterosexual relationship in better understanding their mates.

 

And, yes, it would be incredibly selfish to expect a partner to abide comfortably by a temporary NC policy, only to deny them the same when/if they should desire it. This is not the scenario here, however, in case you glossed over or misunderstood the line in my initial post stating that I would "respect wholeheartedly" her desire for downtime... EXCEPT that it is the timing here that is most peculiar. Appreciate the context of my post, please.

[CarnelianButterfly]

You skipped over my statement:

 

Maybe your retreat has given her a wake up call that maybe she needs to evaluate and think on what your relationship really means to her.

 

It sounds like she was really upset and might need some space herself.

[itsallgrand]

I've been through this with other women I've dated and it appears that once they're hurt they just can't snap back into the old program the way men can (it's a generalization, but is one based upon my personal experiences).

 

Huh?! Actually sounds like she has snapped right back into her old program. Nothing has changed. And she is determined to keep it that way: whether with you around or not.

 

You're asking her to grow up and she don't want to. huh.

 

There is the possibility that you are the only one playing these games: and that she is just being her usual self in a relationship. Let's see if she even remembers any of this later...when it is no longer convienent for her to remember.

 

I read your other thread and honestly I Don't Get It. She drinks and forgets what she is doing. She takes no accountability for it. (oh sorry, I didn't even know you were going through he- emotionally bc I was drunk at the time).

Whaaaa???

You don't deserve that! What crap!

 

You know the person she is when she is sober? That's her actual level of function in a relationship. The drunk blubbering - - it's simply that, Drunk Blubbering.

 

I guess what I am wondering is how it is you expect her to be able to function as a healthy, accountable partner when she clearly shows she can not/ will not.

Why hurt yourself for nothing?

 

I suspect that drinking is the blanket that covers up all the insecurities, troubles, worries, lack of accountability, and lack of respect here.

 

You put up with it - why? So that you have a drinking buddy? So that you don't have to question whether your own drinking is normal?

 

I'm not claiming you are an alcoholic, or her. I don't know. I don't see how drinking is helping anything here though. It's a nice handy excuse for acting like a scuz " I was drunk. Ya can't expect me to behave like an adult. "

 

I also know my post is much harsher than some of the others, in that it targets DRINKING which you are glossing over here - on your end. How often have YOU made decisions about this relationship when drunk? Are you gonna tell me you've been cold-sober this whole time? Did you re-initiate contact drunk/hung over?

 

You can face this head on or you can keep pulling chains. At 40 though, this isn't going to be so cute (not that it is cute now). Imagine moving in together, having a kid, and fighting/running away and someone forgetting something important bc they were drunk!

 

*getting off soapbox* Good luck. You don't need to live this way. You are worth more.

[CrossCheck75]

Thanks for the lengthy and pull-no-punches approach in your response, friscodj.

 

You introduce an interesting perspective, in terms of seeing things through the eyes of a general or politician. This is purely a semantics thing, as I am a political scientist and probably very conditioned to speak in terms of "policy" and "strategy". While I can understand your linking my vocabulary with a heaping mound of psychoanalysis, I will endeavor to rephrase so that you do not get caught up in the frivolous process of painting me as a Napoleon drudging to the east in an analogous campaign to "conquer" my woman...

 

"enacting policies" - doing stuff a certain way

 

"strategizing and analyzing" - thinking about something or how to do something

 

Hope those clarifications help you...

 

You speak quite a bit about truth here and finding it, ignoring it, fearing it, etc. As I stated in reference to limbo, "I seek truth, certainty..." I try to ascertain a truth, as it applies to relationships, in terms of the compatibility among two mates or prospective mates, in terms of love as expressed by both mates and its mutuality, and finally in terms of overall durability based upon said degree of compatibility and reciprocity of love.

 

You seem to infer that I may already have arrived at such truths, and that I am perhaps ignoring them or fearing them. Interesting and very Socratic! I will not dispute this prospect, as apparently something did lead me to take up (I'll refrain from using "enact") the NC stuff (I'll refrain from using "policy"), then make my way here to post about it...

 

This logic of yours, while it sounds like a fun method of illuminating a revelation, is flawed in that ALL couples do experience doubts based upon the compatibility and reciprocal love that I speak of. If the truth is so absurdly simple to drudge up just by questioning WHY these conflicts arise, then that is to suggest that every couple is doomed and that the truth is that they fight because of it.

 

Nay, I, like most, have came here to intimate details of my life to share experiences and seek guidance, reassurance, and constructive criticism. Your logic dictates that anyone posting on the subject of relational distress may or may not be blind to what should be a readily apparent truth.

 

A bit simple for my liking, but nonetheless deep and well thought out. Really had me thinking. Thanks!

[renaissancewoman101]

I do agree with the other posters, it's not a good idea to play games when it comes to relationships. But sometimes, people pull away, as a way of protecting themselves from getting hurt. They also pull away so as to not drown out the relationship or get the other person tired of them.

 

Relationships are never spelled out, set in stone. I have learned that relationships are a "push and pull", never stagnant, struggle. Sometimes, when you let your guard down is when you get hurt.

 

Relationships are hard.

[CrossCheck75]

Itsallgrand, thanks very much to you as well for the long, hard-hitting post! I honestly can find no part of it that I disagree with.

 

What I am concluding is a double-prongued "truth" (friscodj, listen up):

 

- I simply think far too much about things. As it applies to relationships, perhaps ignorance really may be bliss. I must adapt by lightening up and just going with the flow more instead of constantly thinking/worrying.

 

- I have a lack of patience. This is closely tied to having an over-analytical mind. I want answers now. I want resolution now. I want to know that I have a future with my mate now. I see life as a ticking clock, and subsequently feel the need to achieve in the here and now. All of this causes me to be somewhat impulsive. I feel the best for me at the present is to stop forcing square pegs through round holes and just relax as things unfold-- for better or for worse.

 

My five days here at Enotalone has been highly introspective and informative, causing me to learn a great deal about myself, others, and relationships in general. Thank you.

[friscodj]

This logic of yours, while it sounds like a fun method of illuminating a revelation, is flawed in that ALL couples do experience doubts based upon the compatibility and reciprocal love that I speak of. If the truth is so absurdly simple to drudge up just by questioning WHY these conflicts arise, then that is to suggest that every couple is doomed and that the truth is that they fight because of it.

 

The point I was trying to make is in the perception of the relationship. Viewing it as a game, making moves, getting other people to do things through manipulation, etc. is what is really flawed.

 

And I believe to an extent, these things happen inherently due to human nature . In that case, it takes conscious effort to focus on building a healthy and fulfilling relationship and finding the truth of the fit you have together aside from these games. And I was trying to motivate you to make this conscious effort to look past the games inherent to relationship which cloud judgment and dismiss perspective on what really matters, which is finding general fulfillment, happiness, and feeling the relationship is "right".

[friscodj]

 

- I simply think far too much about things. As it applies to relationships, perhaps ignorance really may be bliss. I must adapt by lightening up and just going with the flow more instead of constantly thinking/worrying.

 

- I have a lack of patience. This is closely tied to having an over-analytical mind. I want answers now. I want resolution now. I want to know that I have a future with my mate now. I see life as a ticking clock, and subsequently feel the need to achieve in the here and now. All of this causes me to be somewhat impulsive. I feel the best for me at the present is to stop forcing square pegs through round holes and just relax as things unfold-- for better or for worse.

 

I think you answered your own question here bro. Now just remember there is a fine line between a situation being "unfolded" and being "turned inside out"...and that is the truth I was encouraging you to seek and recognize...

[CrossCheck75]

Itsallgrand, I just got in from work and checked in to reread responses in this thread as sometimes things can be interpreted differently upon a second read. Still, I cannot dispute any of what you had to say. In fact, it hit me even harder second time around.

 

Of all the responses to both of my threads, yours has to have the most impact. It is possibly your assertion that (excuse paraphrase) "what is said sober is what betokens a level of functionality in a relationship, while drunken drivel is just that and nothing more." It is a bitter pill to swallow...

 

While I am absolutely, positively no angel in this relationship, and have been repulsed by my own indiscretion at times (both sober and while drinking), I take to heart the above paraphrase. It carries more weight than anything else in the two threads. Friscodj had me thinking deeply, as if picking my brain to work a puzzle. Yours, sadly, was spot on in all of its no-bull**** clarity.

 

Sometimes the things we least want to hear are those that are most beneficial. I candy coat nothing, and wish for nothing fed my way to be. Sometimes we all must be clobbered over the head with the brutal truth.

 

Sincerely, thank you. I will probably check back in to read your post 15 times in my efforts to find strength while healing from this very confusing and layered nine-month run of love... sigh...

[friscodj]

Hey bro,

 

A lot of what you wrote throughout this thread reminded me of things I have said to myself before. I can see you are a deep thinker and analyzer. I've found that this trait can be your best source of clarity and resulting and salvation. For me, once I convince my head of the right direction, the truth of the matter, then I can start persuading the heart to follow suit...because for me, that is a lot more nonsensical and stubborn...

 

So keep challenging yourself, challenge your feelings like you challenged my posts here. Do it. Dig within yourself, within your mind by doing this to find clarity in all of this. Ask the hard questions of your heart. What solid evidence leads you to believe her feelings will match yours? Has she shown you 100 signs of detachment to 1 of having true love for and comittment towards you? Things like this...

 

Basically, I've found interrogating my heart and arguing with it goes a long way to finding clarity in situation like this. Since you seem to think a lot like me, I suggest you try this as well.

 

Along these lines, perhaps an exercise to get you started on this track, is something I've done before which really helped get my head going in the right direction in situations like this. Imagine your best friend asking you for advice in your situation, same scenario, same history. What would you tell him/her??????

[Miss M]

CrossCheck, the way I read this, you're not the one playing games, but she is. It seems you're sincere and putting in 110%, and she's insincere... and playing games to cover her insincerity. You're committed and focused, and she's... well... not the kind of woman what you want when she's sober... and oh yes, she's not committed and not focused (because she needs to drink to be that way?).

 

And I'm guessing she's pulling back (i.e. going into her own cave) not because she's being vengeful, but because she simply can't step up to the plate in a reciprocal way to mirror your level of interest and commitment to the relationship. But she also knows she can't fake it anymore because you're getting more focused, more concerned, looking more closely at the relationship. So maybe she's pulling back so you can't get a clear-eyed view of what she's really about, that she's not actually meeting you halfway like she should? Some people hate to be scrutinized when they know they don't look so good under a bright light. But yeah, I guess pulling into a cave (after she begged and pleaded to get you back) is her way of playing games too.

 

Let me know if any of this resonates. I could be wrong.

And good luck.

[vesper]

Miss M has some good points CrossCheck!

[CrossCheck75]

Thank you very much, Miss M. Yes, your words do resonate, and mirror what several others have said. You put it most eloquently, however. As much as I do not want to accept it, I'm afraid that what you say about her being unable to step to the plate is right on.

 

There is only a three year age gap between us, which is very negligible at our age (28, 31), though it has been apparent for some time that we are at different levels of maturity. While she's expressed a reciprocal intent on settling down for marriage and family, it is becoming increasingly clearer that she still has a lot of party girl in her.

 

This, it may be, is precisely why she has withdrawn. I can't help but feel taken for granted or strung along, as she seems perfectly content sending trivial text messages and having superficial physical encounters with me... anything so long as we can avoid discussing anything substantive. When she feels she is losing me she lays the emotion on thickly, pleading with me to have patience with her, that she'll mature at some point, etc., etc., etc...

 

I've even went so far as to suggest that maybe we open the prospect of seeing others, if for no other reason than to just allow the opportunity for the two of us to definitively determine what it is we need/want at this stage of our lives. Needless to say, this really severely hurt her.

 

I can't go on like this indefinitely. I am depressed and anxious around the clock, and checking my voice mail and email every hour in hopes of finding something meaningful just exacerbates all of it when I find either nothing or something very trivial such as a one-liner greeting such as, "hey you, out with the girls...miss ya!"... What I am waiting for is, "Michael, I am ready to sit and have that long heart-to-heart that I've been putting off."

 

This is almost worse than just breaking it off with me. At least with some formal closure I could begin the healing process. I recently asked for closure, if she had no intent of together addressing our future, only to be told that she's just requiring space at the moment and to be patient. Well, how many months and years must I have patience and be closed off to other women???

[Miss M]

Making the effort to thoughtfully self-examine, to self-criticize, and to make corrective adjustments is all great. But if you're the only one doing that in a relationship, that's not good. I've read both your threads and this whole thing seems really lopsided, where you're doing all the self-examination and changing and fixing, and she's doing all the evading. The other problem with it being so lopsided is that you can get so caught up in trying to hold yourself accountable, taking ownership for your errors, that you don't realize when you're taking on too much responsibility for what's going wrong. She obviously also has some responsibility towards making corrections, and for making the relationship work. Be careful not to overly blame yourself when so much of the problem is really with her.

 

As to the ages, I usually don't find age to be an indication of someone's maturity. There are some 14-year olds who are more mature that 60-year olds. Unfortunately I also know lots of people 40-80 years old who lack wisdom, maturity, and depth. And the people who I regard as mature were that way when they were 20.

 

And that situation where she is "perfect" when drunk, but aloof when sober, is having the effect of pushing and pulling on your emotions in such a way that it's actually quite harmful, and even very emotionally addictive. (I've also been caught in that kind of addictive ping-pong and it really clouds your judgment and screws up your emotions in a bad way.) Even if it's not intentional on her part, it's really as if she's withholding affection until you're literally anxious and starving, and then finally lovingly "feeds" you, and then you feel this very intense sense of relief and satiation. You end up feeling this absurdly excessive amount of gratitude for something that should really be normal, everyday affection. That "pushing and pulling" effect is not at all healthy to experience to the degree that you're describing, and is a classic example of how an emotional addiction forms. And that's probably the real reason why you're having so much trouble breaking free.

 

And you're absolutely right, her wishy-washy behavior is a huge distraction, and is needlessly tying you up, blocking you from having access to other women who might be much more suitable for you.