when your not interested...question for girls and guys

[Belle]

So are we to understand that if a woman is at a nightclub or any such venue, any type of dogged pursuit is acceptable? Even if he puts his hands on her or calls her names when she tells him she's not interested?

 

Come on now.

[DN]

So are we to understand that if a woman is at a nightclub or any such venue, any type of dogged pursuit is acceptable? Even if he puts his hands on her or calls her names when she tells him she's not interested?

 

Come on now.

 

Not at all - let me repeat. The statement was thus:

A guy was approaching her at a club, and before he even had a chance to say a word, she looked him up and down and said, 'No." And the guy just turned right back, looking somewhat embarrassed.

very different from anything you are suggesting, including dogged pursuit. He simply approached her and was rejected before he could say a word. I am only saying that what she did in this specific circumstance was wrong. I am not trying to defend harassment or any other unacceptable behaviour by men including groping, touching, persistence, or verbal or physical abuse of any sort.

 

The original poster asked how to turn a guy down. I am suggesting that doing something similar to the quote above is unacceptable.

[Belle]

Ah, I thought you were referring to annie's last post in general, not to the one a few before it. I didn't think she was calling the approach harassment. I just considered it a bit of a girl showing off her rather large ego to make herself feel good. Not very cool I admit.

[Miss M]

Well, I've written a reply off-line, and now see other posts. So I'm not ignoring anybody, but just going back to address something previous. And yes, I also agree that this is an important topic...

 

I was addressing the situation as described: viz:

A guy was approaching her at a club, and before he even had a chance to say a word, she looked him up and down and said, 'No." And the guy just turned right back, looking somewhat embarrassed.

 

You and I can imagine all sorts of scenarios based on those words which will support either position. But I am not imagining a scenario: I am simply asserting my opinion that her behaviour, as described, was rude, insensitive and indefensible.

DN, for me, this isn't an imagined scenario either, not at all, and that's one reason I jumped in, because it's very real for me. For hundreds of times in my life, I've been the woman being described in these posts, not imagined, but very real. While I understand your objection to the woman Annie described above, I happen to understand how she feels and I wanted to express that. And I specifically object to you saying women are obligated to smile, be polite, and to express gratitude to every man who approaches them. I don't agree with that at all, and I feel it's bad advice.

 

And telling women there's never an excuse for saying "no" in that way, and labeling it as rude and indefensible, also seems wrong to me because I've been that woman first-hand. You're obviously looking after the guy's feelings, and that's understandable. But attractive women who are constantly accosted get told that same thing over and over, that we should think of the guy's feelings, that we should be grateful for the attention, that we should be polite, and that we should consider what he's going through. I happen to know the harm of that kind of advice. And I say we also have to look after our own feelings as well, and that we need the guys to also consider our feelings. When we don't, we end up hurt very badly. Consideration of people's feelings goes both ways. I and wanted to point out some of what the attractive woman goes through, what her world is like.

 

When Cinderelly mentioned that she lied, she got lectured, was dismissed, was labeled mean and classless. I felt that was unfair because in her posts I just see a woman who is trying to cope with a difficult situation. I've been her. I AM her. I've walked through her shoes. And I'm not typically a liar, nor am I an unkind person at the core, but to get guys to leave me alone, I've told lots of lies, and been "rude" on many occasions in my life. At other times I've been nice and polite and as a result got called the "b" word and others. Or got hurt in other ways. And Annie's exactly right about the need for bodyguard. I'm just posting to say there's another way to perceive it when you're actually the woman getting all the attention. And the behavior I've had didn't come from any clubs.

 

And really, I'm not actually posting to convince you or to change your mind. I'm just posting because this all seems especially relevant to me, because I have first-hand experience of this topic, up close and personal.

 

IMO this whole topic is really about how difficult it is to say "no," and the inability to feel inwardly okay with that. It's also about how guys will sometimes exploit that difficulty that some women have been programmed to have. Saying the woman is mean or classless or indefensibly rude doesn't help at all. Not being able to stand up and say "no" is complicated, and sometimes it stems from an inability to validate oneself, and is not at all related to a woman being unkind and cruel. And ironically, the inability to validate oneself can be the result of being repeatedly told to disregard one's feelings, to put the needs of others' ahead of your own, to perceive oneself as cruel, rude, for trying to cope in a clumsy way. So the lectures, the judgment, and the labeling, all actually just make it that much more difficult, not easier, and solve nothing.

[DN]

And I specifically object to you saying women are obligated to smile, be polite, and to express gratitude to every man who approaches them. I don't agree with that at all, and I feel it's bad advice.

 

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with what I say. But please don't take me to task for something I did not say. This is what I actually wrote:

 

Why not a smile and a polite "No thank you, but it's very flattering that you asked."?

Where did I say that suggestion is an obligation? Had I wanted to say that – I would have said that. I offered an alternative not a command.

 

Further, I was not offering my opinion based on your personal experiences but one based on the situation as described in the post.

 

Frankly, I am somewhat bemused at having to defend myself for offering an opinion that people should usually be polite; I do not withdraw it, but I do withdraw from further discussion about it.

[Miss M]

how do you handle a situation like this? do you be polite or direct? a person walks up to you in a club. you start chatting and find that you have nothing in common with this person at all. the person later asks you for your phone number and you don't want to give it out. Do you be direct and tell them to get lost? or do you be polite and give them a fake number?

I wanted to come back to the original questions. As I've said in my posts I handle each situation individually. And I've responded to them in a variety of ways. It just depends on the circumstances, and my mood, and a whole lot of other things. Sometimes I say a simple "no," sometimes I say "no thank you," sometimes I say I'm already taken. And on a couple of occasions in the past I even gave out fake numbers, but I don't do that anymore. Sometimes my response is to just look and not say anything at all. Sometimes I say no even before the guy has asked the question. But 99% of the time I haven't been direct is because I felt the guy was being disrespectful in some way, and not willing to accept the answer at face value. I know some women give out fake numbers because they don't want to hurt his feelings, but when I did it, it was because I felt threatened by him in some way, or didn't want him to hurt MY feelings by calling me names, and giving me his disapproval of my decision.

 

hi, i knew you guys were going to dog me for my response. but i have been direct with guys in the past and some of them don't take no for a answer. i even get hit on by other guys when i'm standing there with my bf. my bf says that it is because i'm a friendly person. i don't like to hurt peoples feelings. and i have said no to a few guys before and they asked me why i didn't like them. it hurts me to explain.

I had a different response to your post than many of the others. I actually think you were brave for speaking your true feelings here, even though the response was disagreeable.

 

I grew into adulthood during a time when standing next to a bf or other male companion was enough reason for a guy to not ask, to not even LOOK at me. Back then looking at a girl who was with a companion was considered very disrespectful and unacceptable behavior. I used to even ask my platonic friends, brother, cousins, to accompany me so I wouldn't have to deal with being looked at and propositioned. And even then I still got tired of being propositioned so much. I'm amazed that things have changed so much that guys boldly proposition a girl while her boyfriend is standing there.

 

It took me a really long time but now I'm looking at why I don't like to hurt people's feelings. I also look at why it hurts me to expplain to them when they ask why. Sometimes when a guy asks why, I ask him why he asks why. (But sometimes I don't want that much conversation either.) I find that guys ask why only because they don't want to accept "no." They want to debate it and tell me why I'm wrong for rejecting them. I realized I got really weary of being evaluated and lectured about being wrong for expressing my disinterest in them. I've also responded to the "why" question by telling him that any explanation I could give wouldn't be flattering to him, not something that would be pleasant news for him to hear, that it was best to spare both of us that agony. And last week I just said I didn't feel inclined to explain my reasons, that the topic wasn't up for further discussion, but it took me a lot of years to get to that point, and still it felt very excruciating.

 

 

And to defend Miss M, I'm sorry that some don't understand her feelings on the matter. My girlfriends didn't either and thought I was asking to be harassed. The fact was, they weren't as attractive and had simply never experienced that much unwanted attention. Also, they were jealous. Unless you've been there, you have no idea how you'll react and that a negative reaction isn't a character flaw given teh ircumstances.

Thanks Belle, as I said before this is a significant issue for me. It's a very painful experience to go through life with this kind of problem. I've had the experience of being hated by women who wanted the attention I was getting and they resented me for it. That kind of reaction from them made a painful situation even more painful and lonely. I've spent too much time trying to take care of the guys' feelings, and also the feelings of the women who resented me, and none of that was good for me to do because I left my own needs out of the equation. But if other women perceive themselves as being rejected by men, and if they perceive the attention attractive women are getting is a desirable thing, then their jealousy is understandable and really can't be helped. The women who now end up as my friends are the ones who also are able to understand that it's not all that wonderful, not easy, and nothing to be envied.

[Stari]

Thanks, Miss M, for taking the time to write about your experiences.

I feel I better understand now the situations a beautiful woman finds herself in. It is sad that women may feel threatened to the degree that she fears to say No.

[Miss M]

Stari, thanks for letting me know this helps because it's still not easy to write about it while meeting so much disapproval and disagreement.

 

And besides all the "rude" responses I've given to disrespectful guys, I've think I've usually been polite to the genuinely nice ones, at least as best as I've been able to manage. Although it's very uncomfortable, I really do my best to turn away the nice ones in a kind way. And just like the women who end up as my friends are the ones who understanding about this, that's also true for my guy friends, and since there are so few of them who understand, I do appreciate every one of them.

[DN]

Despite my statement that I withdraw from this debate, I feel that my response to this:

A guy was approaching her at a club, and before he even had a chance to say a word, she looked him up and down and said, 'No." And the guy just turned right back, looking somewhat embarrassed.

has been somehow twisted to mean that women, including attractive women, should be polite to men who approach them under all circumstances.

 

That is not what I said, nor is it what I mean, and I am frankly tired of having that response misinterpreted or exaggerated. There is no excuse for men to be rude, disrespectful or abusive and I think my stance on that has been made clear during my time on this forum. But the same applies to women and, in the circumstance described in the post I quoted, I can see no excuse for the way that guy was treated. The fact that the woman may have had prior bad experiences was not his fault. Men as a gender should not be expected to shoulder the blame for the way some other men have treated women, nor should women as a gender be blamed for the way some women have treated men.

 

There is enough stereotyping going on between the sexes, races and other sub-groups without exacerbating the problems by being rude to one another without provocation, despite real or perceived injustices or abuse by other people in that sub-group. There is a divide between behaviours - positive and negative. Simple courtesy is on the positive side of the balance sheet - undeserved rudeness is on the negative. That is my point - and my only point.

[darkblue]

I've read the debate and can see the point of view from both sides.

 

The simple way I see it is:

If a man was to politely talk to a women, then yes, she should be nice out of common manners.

 

If a man is persuing or harassing a woman, she has every right to stand up for herself.

I've seen this happen and it's not nice.

If a woman says she is not interested, it should be left at that.

 

There is no need for a man to come off so strongly and deny rejection as playing hard to get. And women should not be expected to take it.

 

Again: I'm not targetting this at anyone specifically, but from experience I know there are men out there that don't take no as an answer.

[DN]

Once again, let me be as clear as I can. I was addressing the post as stated - no more and no less. In no way am I holding a position in any debate that says women should be polite to men who are not polite to them. I do not disagree with either of these points:

If a man is persuing or harassing a woman, she has every right to stand up for herself.

I've seen this happen and it's not nice.

If a woman says she is not interested, it should be left at that.

 

There is no need for a man to come off so strongly and deny rejection as playing hard to get. And women should not be expected to take it.

 

So please don't anybody assume, overtly or by inference, that I do. I don't.

[darkblue]

I didn't think you were DN.

 

But, as I said, I can see the viewpoints from both sides.

[Miss M]

I am frankly tired of having that response misinterpreted or exaggerated.

I guess this is directed to me.

 

After our exchanges were done, my subsequent comments have not been directed to you and have not been about your previous posts. If you look again you might see that I was addressing other people about what they had written. As far as I was concerned, I was no longer writing to you, nor about you.