Nice guys do finish last!!!

[Shidoshi]

Quote:

These guys need to start embracing their masculinity and stop being afraid to be more "bold" with women. Something about them is turning girls off, do you think things will change as long as they continue to behave the same way?

 

 

 

But what is masculinity? Seems to me like they are embracing their masculinity more. They see the things that make a real man - what's on the inside, there heart, strength, character, etc.... there just not following the stereotypes of what makes a man cause they are smarter then that.

Heart, strength, etc...do not manifest themselves through "passivity" in men when it comes to relationships with women. Do you know why a lot of shy, nice guys have a lot of problems with women? It's because they're afraid to be men, afraid of rejection.

[ShySoul]

Heart, strength, etc...do not manifest themselves through "passivity" in men when it comes to relationships with women. Do you know why a lot of shy, nice guys have a lot of problems with women? It's because they're afraid to be men, afraid of rejection.

 

So what does it mean to be a man? Is it about risking rejection? Women risk rejection too. Everyone fears rejection, its natural. Shy guys are more in touch with their emotions, so they feel things deeper then other guys. Thus a rejection really gets to them and can bring them down. But on the flip side, the joy of being accepted is higher then other guys experience as well.

 

And don't tell me that non shy and nice guys don't go through the same feelings. They are just either insensitve and forget about the girl, which shows they didn't care about her all that much to begin with, or they do there best to put on a front to mask the sadness, sorrow, and fear they feel inside.

 

Shy or nice guys are more man then other guys, cause they experience the full range of emotions and what it means to be a man. Other guys try to fit into a mold of what a "man" is, when they don't even know what that means themselves. And as a friend said, most men just define their masculinity on what is not "feminine." Which is very unmanlike if you ask me, to be basing what makes you a man, off of what females are like (or what silly guys preceive females to be like).

[melrich]

Shy guys are more in touch with their emotions, so they feel things deeper then other guys.

 

How do you know this?

 

I think this whole pedantic argument about nice guy/bad guy is just plain ridiculous to be honest. We are an amalgam of our parts. I think I am a nice guy generally but like many people I have occasionally done not so nice things. But to make the broad generalisations you guys are making is crazy.

 

Anyway to the quote above in particular. I am not a particularly shy person. Nor am I particularly expressive with my emotions. But it does not mean i don't feel them and feel them deeply.

 

Do I feel them deeper or shallower than the next guy? How the hell would I know....but probably not. Do I feel them in different ways? Maybe but again how would I know? Do I express them differently? Most certainly. That I can observe. I will hold it in, the guy next to me may let it all out. Does that mean he feels it any deeper? No, not necessarily.

 

Really to make judgements on the way people think and feel according to whether they are shy or not or fit into some sort of nice guy/bad guy sort of box is just plain absurd.

[Alabama]

It's true many nice guys complain about not getting girls. We say it's because the girls go for the jerks. Yet what of it if nice gusy are in touch with their emotions? Will that guarentee they get the girl? Not neccesarily. Nice guys can learn what the 'jerks' have. Confidence. Now, Shy soul I can see where your coming from. Going by generalizations, nice guys are in touch with thier emotions, and jerks aren't. That's true in some cases, but not all. And Shiboshi does it mean that shy/nice guys are afraid of rejection? I don't think so. Jerks I believe are afraid too. They're afraid to get in to touch with their emotions. If nice guys and jerks would find a balance of being a man, and being on touch with one's emotions, they would be better off. Just my opinion.

[Shidoshi]

I'm starting to realize how pointless my arguments are becoming on a few topics in particular. I'm a "results" oriented guy. If behaving a certain way is not getting you what you want, you need to change if you want it bad enough. This doesn't apply to Shysoul and other guys who think like him, because they're convinced they're happy with what they're getting, and if they are, GREAT!

 

However, if you aren't, then we can talk, and I will give you my advice. Notice how none of the women on this forum dare comment on a thread like this and others like it. If they do, it's very far and few between. In all honesty, they don't care because these guys don't interest them. Complaining about the hardships of the "nice" guy screams insecurity. Women may reinforce it, but men who know better will give you a much needed wake up call that will change your life depending on how serious you are in wanting to change.

[Alabama]

But what if a nice doesn't want to change? Should he have to suffer for not getting the girl of his dreams? I don't think so. If a nice guy though would at least have confidence in approaching a girl, then he would succeed. Maybe. Yet also don't forget, woman can't help it but fall for 'jerks'. It's in their nature. You definetly bring up a lot of good points Shiboshi. Besides getting involved with your 'manly side', any advice for nice guys?

[Caldus]

A 'jerk' does not always have confidence.

 

A 'nice guy' does not always lack confidence.

 

A person who doesn't label themselves as either and acts as themselves is probably at least somewhat confident.

[corvidae]

OK, what I really don't get is when a guy can have a reputation for cheating and leaving his girlfriends for younger models, and yet girls, (even when they know his history) will still melt when he turns on the charm. Curiouser and curiouser.

[northernlights]

OK, what I really don't get is when a guy can have a reputation for cheating and leaving his girlfriends for younger models, and yet girls, (even when they know his history) will still melt when he turns on the charm. Curiouser and curiouser.

 

Yes, but the girls who like this kind of guy tend to be "problem girls". They are the type who you don't want to be dating in the first place...at least in my opinion from what I've seen.

 

An ex-friend of mine was a problem girl. She was a huge drinker and party-girl who wanted a steady boyfriend that would treat her well yet only dated jerks. But at the same time, she was the type of girl a nice guy wouldn't want to date anyway. Sure, she was HOT, but her personality left much to be desired for. She always cried about her awful boyfriends, but kept going back to them. I *repeatedly* gave advice about looking for nicer boys and she would always get angry at me. So we split up for good.

Yet, even though she wasn't good girlfriend material, lots of nice guys still went after her because of her looks. So really, isn't it just a reversed example of the "nice guy syndrome"?

 

After all, plenty of us girls wonder why guys keep going for girls who walk all over them!

[Miss M]

I'm starting to realize how pointless my arguments are becoming on a few topics in particular. I'm a "results" oriented guy.

 

...

 

Notice how none of the women on this forum dare comment on a thread like this and others like it. If they do, it's very far and few between. In all honesty, they don't care because these guys don't interest them.

 

Here's another bit of female input...

I don't post much on threads like this because I, like you, also see it as pointless, and I'm also "results" oriented. What's the use of posting to a thread when so many opinions are being strongly asserted that I don't agree with? So, how many guys here are actually looking for answers, for another perspective? How many want to learn something new? And how many just see this as an oppotunity to get on a soapbox to put forth their truth? I see a lot of posts here where guys seem to want a chance to assert their opinions and then rigidly hang onto them.

 

And some women might not post because it's just not interesting or appealing to throw their opinions into this very opinionated testosterone soup. Sitting back watching a lot of guys strongly purport that "this is just and so" can be a real eye-opener, and explains a lot about why women and men can't come together to try to sort this out.

[northernlights]

I'm starting to realize how pointless my arguments are becoming on a few topics in particular. I'm a "results" oriented guy.

 

...

 

Notice how none of the women on this forum dare comment on a thread like this and others like it. If they do, it's very far and few between. In all honesty, they don't care because these guys don't interest them.

 

So, how many guys here are actually looking for answers, for another perspective? How many want to learn something new? And how many just see this as an oppotunity to get on a soapbox to put forth their truth? I see a lot of posts here where guys seem to want a chance to assert their opinions and then rigidly hang onto them.

 

Miss M, you got it SO right! I didn't post here before because

 

a) it's fun watching the men argue amongst themselves.

and

b) I doubt that anything I say will convince so-called "nice guys" that lots of girls actually LIKE nice guys. C'mon, we don't all like sleaze bags. I've told so many self-pitying "nice guys" this before, but they never never NEVER listen. I give up already.

 

woman can't help it but fall for 'jerks'.

 

PLEASE tell me you're being sarcastic.

If not, here is another reason I don't like posting on these type of threads.

[corvidae]

Well pardon me for saying so, but I certainly don't think that coming onto a thread and telling everyone that they are a) opinionated and b) wrong helps anyone (not to mention being rather ironic, if you see what I mean!). Nor does it help to refer to this as a testosterone fueled argument, as this suggests that you don't comment because you feel it is beneath you and you would just be wasting your time talking to the likes of us. People DO come on here to vent, and people DO come here to find a way to express their views which would otherwise be confined to their heads. They say it's healthy to talk about what is bothering you, and for some people these threads are all they have.

 

If you say you are results driven, well fair enough. But what the men on this board say aren't things they made up in their heads, it's how they feel based on empirical evidence gathered throughout their lives. Truth is, afterall, relative.

 

To be fair I have never bought into this 'nice' guys finish last stuff. Women have a whole range of factors that they use to select men, and the factors will vary from woman to woman. However, I feel popping in just to mention how you're above all of this is possibly the least helpful thing you can do outside of posting in ancient Greek.

[Alabama]

Well said, Corvidae. Oh, I like your qoute, too.

 

To Northern Lights:

Sorry I didn't mean to offend. Let me clarify. I meant woman can't help but fall for 'jerks', because their biolgically programmed that way. Like guys who look at cute girls, and woman who look at hot guys. We're biolgically progammed to do that. Many so called, jerks, look handsome or hot to woman, and plus opposites attract. My apology if you took that offensively.

[Miss M]

Well pardon me for saying so, but I certainly don't think that coming onto a thread and telling everyone that they are a) opinionated and b) wrong helps anyone (not to mention being rather ironic, if you see what I mean!). Nor does it help to refer to this as a testosterone fueled argument, as this suggests that you don't comment because you feel it is beneath you and you would just be wasting your time talking to the likes of us. People DO come on here to vent, and people DO come here to find a way to express their views which would otherwise be confined to their heads. They say it's healthy to talk about what is bothering you, and for some people these threads are all they have.

Well Corvidae, the other reason I don't post when the opinions are very different from mine is that I find I'm usually misunderstood by people who perceive things differently from me. I feel that's what you're doing here, misunderstanding me, at least in a partial way. And I'm usually not into adding fuel to the fire, and my take on things will do that because it seems I differ dramatically from others. If I don't agree, and if I state that in a straightforward way, it comes accross as also opinionated and arrogant and gets a response like yours. Am I saying my opinion is better than others? Well, yeah, from my perspective it is. But then the ones who disagree with me think their opinions are better than mine too, so I really don't see the difference.

 

Is my remark about testosterone offensive? I said it because I see a competitiveness and posturing that goes on with men that women seem less inclined to participate in. I don't see my testosterone remark to be any different from other remarks here that generalize about women, and about the reasons women stay out of this discussion. I see guys here saying what women want, and what women think, and why women do the things they do... all of that as if spoken from authority, as if they really know. Why don't guys realize that speaking on behalf of women is offensive and objectionable to us? As a female reading that kind of stuff, I see plenty of reasons to take issue with those kinds of generalizations. What I wrote is just me stating how I see it as truthfully as I can. Some of us women watch you guys do this so-called "dialogue" and we make conclusions where we have low opinions of some of you. That's true. That's life. But really, I do see the guys doing the exact same thing, getting opinionated, saying unbecoming things about each other, or about women, and popping in to make a blunt remark about a specific comment. Are the women only supposed to post our opinions according to a different set of rules? I'll keep pondering my testosterone comment to see it is seems unfair. But in the meantime, if you want to get defensive about it, please don't just single out the opinionated women when you do so.

 

If you say you are results driven, well fair enough. But what the men on this board say aren't things they made up in their heads, it's how they feel based on empirical evidence gathered throughout their lives. Truth is, afterall, relative.

Totally agree. But again, it works both ways... or all around, for women as well. But I've read a lot of posts where women were mentioned in unflattering ways. What I'm saying here is also not just something made up in my head and is how I genuinely feel based on the evidence. And I'm just writing here from a relative truth also.

 

To be fair I have never bought into this 'nice' guys finish last stuff. Women have a whole range of factors that they use to select men, and the factors will vary from woman to woman.

Agreed.

 

However, I feel popping in just to mention how you're above all of this is possibly the least helpful thing you can do outside of posting in ancient Greek.

Right off the bat, I don't agree with this. I think my comment might have actually been helpful to someone, giving another perspective that maybe hadn't been considered. But I do appreciate knowing that you feel this way. What you see as me "popping in" to say that I am above all this, is what I see as me responding to a post that especially inspired me to make a comment. Trying to say I am "above all of this" actually wasn't my reason for posting. And I popped in because I can't respond to all of the comments I take issue with here because there are so many comments here with which I don't agree. And to respond to them all would take more time than I'm willing to give to this. But I guess saying that also sounds arrogant, like I think less of the opinions of others and more of my own? Well, yes, in this case, that would be absolutely correct, and really, isn't that the same as everybody else here?

[Miss M]

People DO come on here to vent, and people DO come here to find a way to express their views which would otherwise be confined to their heads. They say it's healthy to talk about what is bothering you, and for some people these threads are all they have.

And I forgot to say... yes, I realize that sometimes people are just venting. I try to respect that and try to be sensitive to that. And sometimes I don't post so as not to interfere with that venting, even if I don't agree with how they view things.

[Shidoshi]

Why don't guys realize that speaking on behalf of women is offensive and objectionable to us? As a female reading that kind of stuff, I see plenty of reasons to take issue with those kinds of generalizations.

That is why you should post your opinion. That's exactly what I'd like to see. I might not agree with you, but atleast the argument could develop into something more useful and understandable.

 

A lot of guys here get too hung up on the labels of "nice" and "bad." I use the terms in a general sense because it's easier to get my points accross. Nobody fits into any specific category, but some have more of one trait than the other. The guys who claim to be nice (most of the time) are very passive when it comes to women, and they get tired of either being dumped, or not getting beyond the "friends zone," if they even manage that.

 

I REPEAT! Telling them that it's ok to be nice does not help anything, what guy on this MB believes that the guys who are successful with women are ALL bad, and have absolutely nothing "nice" about them. Niceness is not their issue. Certain behaviors tend to turn women off, those behaviors should be identified and corrected so the (oh no, here's that word again!) "nice" guy actually succeeds in getting the girls he desires. There are no guarantees, obviously, but some guys CAN be successful with a little attitude adjustment.

 

I'm nice, and my friends are nice. Did that help us get women? No. Now that we are more successful with them, does that mean we are no longer the nice guys we were? No. Do we all only look to have sex with women and nothing else? No. You need to have the right balance of kindness and, yes that evil word, "assertiveness."

[Shidoshi]

Miss M, you got it SO right! I didn't post here before because

 

a) it's fun watching the men argue amongst themselves.

and

b) I doubt that anything I say will convince so-called "nice guys" that lots of girls actually LIKE nice guys. C'mon, we don't all like sleaze bags. I've told so many self-pitying "nice guys" this before, but they never never NEVER listen. I give up already.

As I've said before, because telling them that lots of girls LIKE nice guys doesn't solve anything. Being nice is not the issue at all with these guys. Telling them to keep doing what they're doing only brings frustration, that's why they never listen to you. So if a girl doesn't like a "nice" guy she only likes "sleaze bags." People keep going from one extreme to the other and the real issue goes unnoticed.

[Caldus]

I don't like extremes anyway. I think they're silly.

 

And by the way ... I agree with your points Shidoshi. Kind of like how I said earlier that not all 'nice guys' lack confidence.

[Miss M]

Why don't guys realize that speaking on behalf of women is offensive and objectionable to us? As a female reading that kind of stuff, I see plenty of reasons to take issue with those kinds of generalizations.

That is why you should post your opinion. That's exactly what I'd like to see. I might not agree with you, but atleast the argument could develop into something more useful and understandable.

Shidoshi, I absolutely agree with you. You make some very excellent points. And yes, I agree that we women should post more with our input. That does seem more sensible and helpful, yes. But admittedly it does get tedious and becomes very unappealing from this end of it. Throwing in with a group of guys can be tiresome. And are the guys willing to hear us? When it's just opinions being tossed around and not much openness to listening, I tend to back off. But when guys ask questions, expressing an openness to hearing from others, I tend to offer some input. If I get the sense someone isn't interested in what I have to say, I usually don't push so much. But I agree that we shouldn't opt out too quickly if we're ever gonna get a better understanding.

 

I'm nice, and my friends are nice. Did that help us get women? No. Now that we are more successful with them, does that mean we are no longer the nice guys we were? No. Do we all only look to have sex with women and nothing else? No. You need to have the right balance of kindness and, yes that evil word, "assertiveness."

And I also agree that it's a lot more complicated and multi-layered, and it can't be easily categorized with these simple labels we've been using. Some nice guys get girls and some don't. Also some jerks get girls and some don't. So obviously those aren't the criteria that determine whether a guy gets a girl.

 

In all cases, I'd say that guys usually get girls because they make her feel as if she matters to them, as if she's important to him enough for him to pay attention to what she's saying, how she feels. The jerks also do this, but with them it's usually a front, a performance. It's something they do as a strategy. Jerks get girls because they actually study the girl very intensely, like a predator. And they figure out what she wants and needs. And they pretend to give her that, at least temporarily. (Also they are very clever at throwing her off balance, using a lot of distractions, changing the subject, tying her head into a knot with swift changes in the conversation. All of that causes her to lose track of what he's doing, but that's probably for another discussion.) Of course I'm not suggesting anybody should be a fake like the jerks but telling the girl what she wants to hear is what the jerks do. It's not that girls like jerks... it's because jerks figure out how to feed her all the lines he knows she wants to hear. He pretends to care about her and love her even when he doesn't. It's just a magnificent performance. That's why so many girls fall for him. And the entire time he's wooing her, he's reading every very subtle clue she's gives, and he's constantly making split-second decisions, adjusting his strategies according to what he's reading in her behavior.

 

The kind of nice guys who gets nice girls... I'd say what ShySoul keeps saying is key. He gets very pushy with his opinion, but if you can get past that, I would suggest you guys should take him seriously because I totally agree with everything he's saying. Get clear about what you want, get comfortable in your own skin. Be nice and kind just because it's the thing you do naturally, not because it will get you the girl. If you're a nice guy, and if you're being nice in order to get a good result, it's just not the same. You can't play it like the jerk and pull it off. Also, if you keep seeing yourself as a victim, seeing yourself as being left behind, wallowing in self-pity, you spend so much time worried about satisfying your own needs. If you're worried about being rejected, or worried about failing, or worried about being too ugly, or worried that she will mistreat you, then your self-doubt is glaring and can be a turn off. Besides that you're putting all of your attention on yourself and not enough on her. Nice guys who whine and wallow in self-pity are actually being very selfish, and that's not nice at all. And it's also not nice to expect the girl to make you feel better. That's really something you have to work out for yourself so you don't burden her with that responsibility. Also if a selfish girl detects your fears, she can be like the jerk and also feed you just what you want to hear. Being in a relationship is not about finding somebody to boost your ego. It's about finding someone with whom you can connect in a meaningful way. That means looking deeply past the superficial stuff, just like you would like her to look deeply into you.

[melrich]

And I also agree that it's a lot more complicated and multi-layered, and it can't be easily categorized with these simple labels we've been using.

 

LOL...don't tell me this thread is going to suddenly start to become sensible!

[Caldus]

And I also agree that it's a lot more complicated and multi-layered, and it can't be easily categorized with these simple labels we've been using.

 

LOL...don't tell me this thread is going to suddenly start to become sensible!

 

It think it has started to.

[Miss M]

And I also agree that it's a lot more complicated and multi-layered, and it can't be easily categorized with these simple labels we've been using.

 

LOL...don't tell me this thread is going to suddenly start to become sensible!

 

It think it has started to.

Thanks, Caldus. I thought so too.

[jecht]

i think in the end it will be all the bad boys turning inn to nice guys

[Shidoshi]

In all cases, I'd say that guys usually get girls because they make her feel as if she matters to them, as if she's important to him enough for him to pay attention to what she's saying, how she feels.

See, this is where we start to part ways. All nice guys do this without a doubt, but does it help? Not really, the girls they pursue are treated like queens anyway, there's no doubt in their minds as to how important they are to these guys.

The jerks also do this, but with them it's usually a front, a performance. It's something they do as a strategy. Jerks get girls because they actually study the girl very intensely, like a predator.

I think this is a common misconception. I know some guys you could honestly call jerks, trust me, they would never put that much effort into getting these girls. They ARE smooth, but it's part of their persona, they don't study these chicks at all, hell they even forget their names sometimes.

And they figure out what she wants and needs. And they pretend to give her that, at least temporarily. (Also they are very clever at throwing her off balance, using a lot of distractions, changing the subject, tying her head into a knot with swift changes in the conversation. All of that causes her to lose track of what he's doing, but that's probably for another discussion.)

Some of this I agree with, but you're giving these guys too much credit.

Of course I'm not suggesting anybody should be a fake like the jerks but telling the girl what she wants to hear is what the jerks do. It's not that girls like jerks... it's because jerks figure out how to feed her all the lines he knows she wants to hear. He pretends to care about her and love her even when he doesn't. It's just a magnificent performance. That's why so many girls fall for him. And the entire time he's wooing her, he's reading every very subtle clue she's gives, and he's constantly making split-second decisions, adjusting his strategies according to what he's reading in her behavior.

Again, some of this is true, but you're generalizing way too much about how these guys behave overall. I mentioned the fact that I know some guys you could call jerks/players but your description is sounds almost like something out of a movie. Really, these guys aren't putting that much effort into it, some may, but this is not the case from my experience. Women love jerks, for the most part, because they are confident in what they do, and they don't apologize for it.

The kind of nice guys who gets nice girls... I'd say what ShySoul keeps saying is key.

You know what though, the guys who are complaining don't want these "nice" girls. They want the girls they're attracted to, to be nice, and that's where the problem starts.

If you're a nice guy, and if you're being nice in order to get a good result, it's just not the same.

Yes, but how many guys actually "know" why they're being nice? On top of that, how many will actually admit that they behave a certain way in order to achieve something? It's not as simple as it sounds. If I were a nice guy reading this, of course I'd like to think I'm nice just because I'm a good person. What person is going to be willing to really analyze themselves to figure out why they behave a certain way?

Also, if you keep seeing yourself as a victim, seeing yourself as being left behind, wallowing in self-pity, you spend so much time worried about satisfying your own needs. If you're worried about being rejected, or worried about failing, or worried about being too ugly, or worried that she will mistreat you, then your self-doubt is glaring and can be a turn off.

Amen.

Nice guys who whine and wallow in self-pity are actually being very selfish, and that's not nice at all. And it's also not nice to expect the girl to make you feel better. That's really something you have to work out for yourself so you don't burden her with that responsibility. Also if a selfish girl detects your fears, she can be like the jerk and also feed you just what you want to hear.

I agree.

Being in a relationship is not about finding somebody to boost your ego. It's about finding someone with whom you can connect in a meaningful way. That means looking deeply past the superficial stuff, just like you would like her to look deeply into you.

I agree again. Whether or not they admit it, you'll find that people get really frustrated when they don't get who they "want," and it becomes easy to blame society and everyone else because how could they deny YOU, the "nice" guy?

[Miss M]

In all cases, I'd say that guys usually get girls because they make her feel as if she matters to them, as if she's important to him enough for him to pay attention to what she's saying, how she feels.

See, this is where we start to part ways. All nice guys do this without a doubt, but does it help? Not really, the girls they pursue are treated like queens anyway, there's no doubt in their minds as to how important they are to these guys.

All nice guys do this? Well, if you're the kind of nice guy who already does this, then my comments certainly wouldn't apply to you. But I've read a lot of posts written by guys who say they're "nice," but when they describe their behavior they really don't treat women like queens. I guess I was thinking of them when I wrote this. But if a girl clearly gets good treatment and knows how important she is to a guy, and still doesn't want to be with him, then of course there is something else going on and my comments don't address that.

 

The jerks also do this, but with them it's usually a front, a performance. It's something they do as a strategy. Jerks get girls because they actually study the girl very intensely, like a predator.

I think this is a common misconception. I know some guys you could honestly call jerks, trust me, they would never put that much effort into getting these girls. They ARE smooth, but it's part of their persona, they don't study these chicks at all, hell they even forget their names sometimes.

It's not a misconception, Shidoshi. This is my exact experience with jerks. Some of them really do act like this. I guess I don't have as much direct knowledge of the other kinds you're describing. I've had my specific blind spots and have fallen in with a certain kind of jerk and was speaking from that perspective. But I also know there are some others like you describe that I've been able to bypass. But just because you've observed different types of jerk, that doesn't mean the kind I've known are non-existent, or as you said, "a common misconception." They may be non-existent to you, but not to me. And yes, the ones I've known actually do put that much effort, even more, into getting a girl.

 

And they figure out what she wants and needs. And they pretend to give her that, at least temporarily. (Also they are very clever at throwing her off balance, using a lot of distractions, changing the subject, tying her head into a knot with swift changes in the conversation. All of that causes her to lose track of what he's doing, but that's probably for another discussion.)

Some of this I agree with, but you're giving these guys too much credit.

Again I'm describing how it has been for me. This is not something I made up. And no, I'm not giving these guys too much credit.

 

Of course I'm not suggesting anybody should be a fake like the jerks but telling the girl what she wants to hear is what the jerks do. It's not that girls like jerks... it's because jerks figure out how to feed her all the lines he knows she wants to hear. He pretends to care about her and love her even when he doesn't. It's just a magnificent performance. That's why so many girls fall for him. And the entire time he's wooing her, he's reading every very subtle clue she's gives, and he's constantly making split-second decisions, adjusting his strategies according to what he's reading in her behavior.

Again, some of this is true, but you're generalizing way too much about how these guys behave overall. I mentioned the fact that I know some guys you could call jerks/players but your description is sounds almost like something out of a movie. Really, these guys aren't putting that much effort into it, some may, but this is not the case from my experience. Women love jerks, for the most part, because they are confident in what they do, and they don't apologize for it.

Shidoshi, honestly I find your comments here arrogant. Again, this is my direct experience I've described, and definitely not a movie. You say "not the case from my experience"? Well, I guess we could compare which of us has had the most direct contact with jerks, which one of us has been most approached by jerks and been up close and personal with many of their strategies first hand. But then, that would probably be counter-productive?

 

The kind of nice guys who gets nice girls... I'd say what ShySoul keeps saying is key.

You know what though, the guys who are complaining don't want these "nice" girls. They want the girls they're attracted to, to be nice, and that's where the problem starts.

Well, the guys want something that doesn't exist then? Do they(you) want me to explain how to get a girl to be nice when she isn't? I honestly didn't know that's what you were asking. And I honestly wouldn't know how to advise you on that one.

 

If you're a nice guy, and if you're being nice in order to get a good result, it's just not the same.

Yes, but how many guys actually "know" why they're being nice?

Well, I thought some of my comments might help to point that out. In fact, that's precisely why I mentioned it, because sometimes guys don't know they're being nice in order to get a good result. That's why I brought it up. Some guys think they're being nice when they really are just being selfish. And a guy might not realize he's doing it, but a girl might pick up on it immediately, and might be turned off by it. And I thought maybe something I've written can help the guys take another look at themselves to see what is their real motivation. But when you counter with, "but how many guys actually know why they're being nice," at this point I'm not sure what you expect me to say.

 

On top of that, how many will actually admit that they behave a certain way in order to achieve something? It's not as simple as it sounds. If I were a nice guy reading this, of course I'd like to think I'm nice just because I'm a good person. What person is going to be willing to really analyze themselves to figure out why they behave a certain way?

Honestly Shidoshi, now this sounds like you're whining. I know it's not simple, and I never intended to imply that it was. In your earlier post you wrote...

Certain behaviors tend to turn women off, those behaviors should be identified and corrected ... . There are no guarantees, obviously, but some guys CAN be successful with a little attitude adjustment.

This sounds like a person who wants to self-analyze and understand himself and make an adjustment, and I was writing to that person. Now you seem to be saying something very different when you ask "What person is going to be willing to really analyze themselves to figure out why they behave a certain way?" Do you see that you seem to be flip-flopping? So now I'll say if someone isn't willing to analyze himself in order to understand why he's not getting what he wants, then I wouldn't know how to advise him, and I wouldn't even try because I know it takes a commitment to try to understand this. And I'm not trying to be unkind here, but I really don't understand what you're after.