Why one and not the other?

[yogacat]

So I had a mini pow wow with my best friend that I have been friend with since I was eleven.

She dislikes Elon Musk and driverless vehicles because she calls the manufacturing of them slave labor. But then, I noticed a big diamond ring on her finger and felt like saying,  "Aha, so you're supporting diamond mines and the exploitation of child laborers?" But I bit my tongue because I didn't want to start an argument.

Instead, I asked (to myself) if you're okay with driving an Acura with all the bells and whistles, then what is wrong with driverless cars and Musk's work? Don't both industries use cheap labor and have ethical concerns? Why is one acceptable and the other not?

[Batya33]

I've given up trying to find the consistencies in peoples' views of which you speak.  I just try to chuckle silently at these inconsistencies and get on with my life.  I try my best to be honest when I'm being inconsistent or seemingly hypocritical.  I am so thankful I worked for huge corporate companies for most of the 15 years of my full time career pre-kid (the other years were for less huge but still large corporate type outfits).  I don't feel I contributed to anything unethical and in fact the opposite for several reasons.  I own a fur coat I don't wear anymore because it's not practical to do so and I love my diamond engagement ring. I had a child despite overpopulation. I fed my child formula and gave up on nursing on day 12 for what I felt were very important reasons even though I'm told by many this is ethically wrong because formula is just like giving my baby Diet Coke. 

But I stopped purchasing a certain brand I used to purchase regularly - a grocery item - because of the company's stance on certain issues that are so very important to me.  But I'll be honest -it's partly because we're happy with the other brands and it's not a huge sacrifice.  Were it - I'd take that into consideration -I have limits too.

I know of people who insist they are into diversity and accepting of all people and yet have implored me to vote for a certain candidate because of her gender.  Certain lol -I know it narrows down to one right now. 

So for me -I choose my battles and for me the battle of potentially arguing with someone about these inconsistencies is just not worth it.  To me - others choose their battles differently.  

 

[Kwothe28]

I think a lot of the issue depends whether there is even ethical consumerism at all today. For some stuff like food, maybe. I can still go out on farmers market and buy local food. And even then I have no idea if farmer is treating those animals good but we can assume he probably does. 

But, for a lot of stuff, ethical consumerism doesnt really exist and nobody is practicing it. If you are going to be ethical about your consumerist need, you shouldnt use your phone, or your computer at all. Because chips for those are mass produced in China. Most probably in that industrial city where they have "safety nets" around company buildings because the working conditions are so harsh(not to mention very "problematic" since they probably also do use child labor) that they often chose suicide by jumping from building. So they installed safety nets so people wouldnt die from that.

See what I mean about ethical consumerism? You would have to be a farmer probably without any electronics at all, in order for you to practice it properly. Because only then you would be certain your consumption choices would be ethically pure. 

[Cherylyn]

I too have a local childhood friend and she's my BFF.  We both have varying tastes regarding our purchases and we either compliment or remain silent.  We don't partake in controversial subjects because we know it could very well ignite an unnecessary argument.  We're in the "to each his or her own" mindset. 

I wear my 1 ct. diamond engagement ring and tiny diamond encrusted wedding band set only when going out with my husband and I wear my CZ small ring and costume jewelry for errands.  I save the good stuff for outings with my husband.  I don't have any strong opinions in one way or the other regarding slave labor or child laborers. 

I'm sure my family and I've purchased merchandise online and from brick and mortar stores which were manufactured from overseas.  Unfortunately,  in order to buy less expensive products,  people from third world countries are oppressed and exploited.  ☹️Most of us couldn't afford products if it was all manufactured where I am in the US.  Labor costs are too prohibitively high here which would be passed onto the consumer and consumers would definitely balk. 😠 It's business and economics.  🤨

[shouldhavelearned]

Some people don't stop to make a logical identity of what the issue is. 

They take a stance and run with it no matter what the evidence shows.

[yogacat]

I just stayed silent. It is not worth getting into especially since I have known and loved her as my bestie since 11. But, it did make me reflect on how we choose to support certain industries and causes, and yet turn a blind eye to others.

It's easy to point fingers and criticize others, but when it comes to our own actions, we often justify them or conveniently ignore them.

I know I have in many settings so I am not trying to preach here. I told her I would be open to a driverless vehicle because I dislike driving due to anxiety when I can't take a bus due to route issues. I also admit I am doing my best to cut back on buying fast fashion and reducing my use of single-use plastics, but I still have a long way to go.

[Cherylyn]

Even though I'm not always a fan of driving,  I don't mind because everywhere is conveniently close to my house. 🏡 🏘️ Nothing is far away.  I have to drive to do my weekly errands such as my local grocery store,  appointments and whatnot.  I live in the suburbs and never take public transportation.  I never make multiple mini trips.  I have a SUV and it's a big weekly haul or every two weeks.  Other times,  I also shop at COSTCO.  I have space in my SUV,  garage and garage refrigerator / freezer.  It saves time and money.  Fortunately,  everything is close to home. 

I reuse plastic bags.  We have 3 large receptacles for weekly curbside trash pick up.  One for yard waste and perishable food waste,  the second bin for recyclables and third bin for regular trash. 

I've bought fast fashion so I'm guilty as charged.  😖

I wouldn't be comfortable nor safe in a driverless vehicle. 

[SophiaG]

Could it have been a lab grown diamond or even a similar gem stone?

I agree though often times people can be inconsistent in applying certain values - sometimes due to lack of awareness/knowledge other times since they are willing to sacrifice certain desires/convenience and not others.

[yogacat]

9 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

Even though I'm not always a fan of driving,  I don't mind because everywhere is conveniently close to my house. 🏡 🏘️ Nothing is far away.  I have to drive to do my weekly errands such as my local grocery store,  appointments and whatnot.  I live in the suburbs and never take public transportation.  I never make multiple mini trips.  I have a SUV and it's a big weekly haul or every two weeks.  Other times,  I also shop at COSTCO.  I have space in my SUV,  garage and garage refrigerator / freezer.  It saves time and money.  Fortunately,  everything is close to home. 

I reuse plastic bags.  We have 3 large receptacles for weekly curbside trash pick up.  One for yard waste and perishable food waste,  the second bin for recyclables and third bin for regular trash. 

I've bought fast fashion so I'm guilty as charged.  😖

I wouldn't be comfortable nor safe in a driverless vehicle. 

Well, the thing with driverless vehicles, is they're programmed to reduce the most casualties. So, if you're in a vehicle by yourself, and there's, say a family of four and you're about to have an accident, the car is programmed to take you out to save the family of four. It's all about minimizing casualties, not saving your life.

[Cherylyn]

2 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Well, the thing with driverless vehicles, is they're programmed to reduce the most casualties. So, if you're in a vehicle by yourself, and there's, say a family of four and you're about to have an accident, the car is programmed to take you out to save the family of four. It's all about minimizing casualties, not saving your life.

I'm still not ready to be a passenger in a driverless vehicle.  I'll take a pass on it and have someone else be in a driverless vehicle.  🚗  I'll live vicariously through you @yogacat 😉

[yogacat]

2 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

Could it have been a lab grown diamond or even a similar gem stone?

I agree though often times people can be inconsistent in applying certain values - sometimes due to lack of awareness/knowledge other times since they are willing to sacrifice certain desires/convenience and not others.

No, it was a diamond diamond, which is fine. I just feel that people can be quick to criticize one thing but not realize that our own actions may also support similar unethical practices.

Unless you live on a farm and home grow everything you need, it's hard to completely avoid supporting unethical practices in some way. We all do it, to some degree. Myself included.

[ShySoul]

The reality is that as consumers we don't know everything that is going on with the companies we buy from. To do the research and only take from the most ethical companies require time and research, which most of us probably don't have. And in a lot of cases, there may be no honest way for us to know things. So we have to do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. It doesn't mean we support anything in particular. It just means me are trying to get by.

Do your best to support ethical standards and living. Support companies that are good for the environment and treat people well. But people themselves aren't in the wrong if they order from Amazon or have a diamond. Do what you can, but you can't do everything.

[yogacat]

Just now, Cherylyn said:

I'm still not ready to be a passenger in a driverless vehicle.  I'll take a pass on it and have someone else be in a driverless vehicle.  🚗  I'll live vicariously through you @yogacat 😉

Heehee. I won't go on the highway, just side roads. I think I feel a bit more confident with an actual person driving in that sense. Human error versus programmed error. I do think it's an interesting technology though and could potentially make transportation safer and more efficient! Though the ethical concerns do need to be addressed. 

[ShySoul]

Think I'll stick to the human drivers. I've had to many computer issues to entirely trust myself and my safety to a machine where I don't know who has programmed it or what that program actually entails...

[Kwothe28]

24 minutes ago, yogacat said:

I just stayed silent. It is not worth getting into especially since I have known and loved her as my bestie since 11. But, it did make me reflect on how we choose to support certain industries and causes, and yet turn a blind eye to others.

 

I think there is a valid discussion to be had about it. Especially with friends. For example, those machines you are talking about use lithium batteries. One of the burning discussions lately in my country is the making of those batteries. See, some Australian company discovered that our country lies on very big supplies of lithium. So they want to do the business regarding it. But there is a burning question of exploitations of land and even more burning question of ecological consequences. So, some people are against it. Those are very good discussions, especially with friends. But sorry, I wouldnt take your road into it. Saying "Aha, so you are supporting child mine labor" isnt exactly the way of doing discussion. Dont think my friends would be offended even with that, but some people, especially Americans, will. You could have said some things people said here on thread about that ethical consumption and how it really isnt achievable in practice. Attacking her about her own seems very inflammatory and not something you should do, and good that you didnt do it.

Also, saw self driving cars thing. And serving robots thing. Its kinda dystopian "Terminator kind" future from sci fi movies. We are not at that stage yet but with advancements in AI, it is going to be very "sci fi movies" like future. I would be more worried about that than ethical consumption. But on a surface its a nice thing. Saw prototype of those self driving cars. They do very good on the roads thanks to satellite view and if you ask me probably way better than certain drivers. Percentage of accidents with those, would probably be way lower. But there are a lot of questions about technology or even implementation of it.

 

[yogacat]

20 minutes ago, ShySoul said:

The reality is that as consumers we don't know everything that is going on with the companies we buy from. To do the research and only take from the most ethical companies require time and research, which most of us probably don't have. And in a lot of cases, there may be no honest way for us to know things. So we have to do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. It doesn't mean we support anything in particular. It just means me are trying to get by.

Do your best to support ethical standards and living. Support companies that are good for the environment and treat people well. But people themselves aren't in the wrong if they order from Amazon or have a diamond. Do what you can, but you can't do everything.

Yes! That is true. Like I said, unless you live on a farm and raise your own food and make your own clothes, it's almost impossible to completely avoid unethical practices in our consumption so why are you singling out specific industries?

We can all strive to make more ethical choices, but let's not judge others for their consumption habits. I was a vegetarian for several years, my own choice, but I didn't look down on people who ate meat. I also hate when people preach about it but then wear leather shoes or use makeup products that are tested on animals. Shouldn't you be volunteering or trying to boycott industries?

I get so confused with the world.

 

[yogacat]

16 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Saying "Aha, so you are supporting child mine labor" isnt exactly the way of doing discussion. Dont think my friends would be offended even with that, but some people, especially Americans, will. You could have said some things people said here on thread about that ethical consumption and how it really isnt achievable in practice. Attacking her about her own seems very inflammatory and not something you should do, and good that you didnt do it.

I wouldn't have said that, I love her too much. But it did get me thinking about the reality of supporting certain industries and not supporting others. It's a complex issue and definitely not black and white.

She works for Acura and drives a vehicle with many bells and whistles and Acura has been known to use cheap labor as well. So it just seems a bit hypocritical to me to be against driverless cars and Musk's work because of the supposed exploitation, but not have any qualms about working for a company that also uses cheap labor.

But you're right, attacking her (or anyone for that matter) about it is not the right approach. And, I didn't, I just reflected on it instead.

Like, I am truly trying to understand where is THE cut off point for ethical consumption? Is it okay to support certain industries and not others?

[Kwothe28]

2 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Like, I am truly trying to understand where is your cut off point for ethical consumption? Is it okay to support certain industries and not others?

As Ive said I dont think its possible. For example, she would have to change her job completely in order for her to be "ethically clean" in a way that we are talking about. Same with anybody else. My both jobs heavily depend on technology. I would have to, for example, quit both jobs, buy land in village and become a farmer in order to do it. Not to mention completely quit technology. Like if I meet somebody and say "Oh if you want to reach me you can do it by mail. But be careful because some paper companies exploit woods to make that paper so they are not ethically pure.". See how insane you would have to go to avoid everything that isnt "ethical"?

I think its nice to "vote with your wallet" and avoid companies that you know arent exactly ethical or dont align with your principals. But again, its impossible to be 100% on those. But I think its good to at least try to be. Its like with "world peace". Yes, you cant achieve it because of human nature. But you can strive to be a good human being and not go into conflicts yourself. 

[ShySoul]

41 minutes ago, yogacat said:

So it just seems a bit hypocritical to me to be against driverless cars and Musk's work because of the supposed exploitation, but not have any qualms about working for a company that also uses cheap labor.

Well, I can think of a few things to be against Musk for and they don't involve cars. 

If we thought about all the ways people are hypocritical, we'd be pondering this issue for hours (or is that days). 

I used to work with a for profit college. They actually got in trouble with the government and was eventually forced to see the company due to their misleading practices. While I know the people at the top were bad people making harmful decisions for people, I can say those I worked with were generally good people. And our job was actually issuing refunds and checks back to students, so on our side we were trying to help them. There were also good teachers who did want to help students learn and get ahead, and some students even did. So even though as a whole the company wasn't ethical, individual parts still were.

It's a tricky balancing act. On one hand you have to support yourself and if that is the opportunity that is there, then you take. You try to do the best job you can and stay true to your values. A lot of things are out of your hands. What you can accept versus what you can't are really personal decisions and rarely have a clear cut answer. 

52 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Like, I am truly trying to understand where is THE cut off point for ethical consumption? Is it okay to support certain industries and not others?

I think you should find your cause, what issue touches your heart the most, and concentrate on that. There is no way any of us can be 100% ethical on everything. So pick an area and put your attention on it. On other things, try to be mindful of your actions, but be lenient on yourself (or others) if the most ideal decision isn't made.

1 hour ago, yogacat said:

I get so confused with the world

That makes two of us. 

There are so many complex issues that don't have black and white answers. You can see all kinds of sides and perspectives to things and you're never sure if you are making the right decision or doing the right thing. A lot of life is trying to make the most of things and doing the best we can.

Like the way you're always thinking about deeper things like this and posing the hard questions. Makes life more interesting when you do.

[yogacat]

14 minutes ago, ShySoul said:

Well, I can think of a few things to be against Musk for and they don't involve cars. 

If we thought about all the ways people are hypocritical, we'd be pondering this issue for hours (or is that days). 

I used to work with a for profit college. They actually got in trouble with the government and was eventually forced to see the company due to their misleading practices. While I know the people at the top were bad people making harmful decisions for people, I can say those I worked with were generally good people. And our job was actually issuing refunds and checks back to students, so on our side we were trying to help them. There were also good teachers who did want to help students learn and get ahead, and some students even did. So even though as a whole the company wasn't ethical, individual parts still were.

It's a tricky balancing act. On one hand you have to support yourself and if that is the opportunity that is there, then you take. You try to do the best job you can and stay true to your values. A lot of things are out of your hands. What you can accept versus what you can't are really personal decisions and rarely have a clear cut answer. 

Thanks.

Well, it's like, some people have apple watches and apple and Steve Jobs paid top dollar to advertise on the back pages of national magazines. Why is that okay? And then you have Musk trying to revolutionize transportation and space travel, which could have huge benefits for humanity, yet he's criticized for labor practices. It's a double standard. By the way. I do not have an opinion regarding Musk one way or the other, because I'm not well informed about the topic. 

I guess it's just easier to ignore the unethical practices when it's something we enjoy or benefit from. But when it comes to something new and disruptive like Elon Musk's work, people are quick to point out the flaws and criticize.

I understand the point. It's hard to hold everything in our lives to the same level of scrutiny and make ethical decisions every single day. We all have our own biases and priorities.

[ShySoul]

10 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Well, it's like, some people have apple watches and apple and Steve Jobs paid top dollar to advertise on the back pages of national magazines. Why is that okay? And then you have Musk trying to revolutionize transportation and space travel, which could have huge benefits for humanity, yet he's criticized for labor practices. It's a double standard. By the way. I do not have an opinion regarding Musk one way or the other, because I'm not well informed about the topic. 

I guess it's just easier to ignore the unethical practices when it's something we enjoy or benefit from. But when it comes to something new and disruptive like Elon Musk's work, people are quick to point out the flaws and criticize.

I understand the point. It's hard to hold everything in our lives to the same level of scrutiny and make ethical decisions every single day. We all have our own biases and priorities.

Yes, it is easier to ignore things when it's something that benefits us. People have an amazing ability for double standards.

Also think it can be hard to separate the person from the accomplisment. Musk may be doing great work that benefits humanity for years to come. And I can applaud a lot of what is being done. But things he's said, done or believes makes me uncomfortable. So I'll tend to have a negative view on things associated with him, or at least be more suspicious of them. But if it is coming from someone I've come to trust and agree with, I'll be more open to it.

Not an expert on any of this either, but I believe Steve Jobs also has been criticized. I believe Steve Wozniak, his partner, is the one that tends to be universally loved.

[Seraphim]

Geniuses have trouble being liked/loved in their own time . 
 

About diamonds the last ones bought for me are Canadian diamonds certified on the diamond it’s self with an id number stating it comes from a Canadian mine . Not all diamonds are child labour or conflict . 

[Seraphim]

https://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/blog/where-are-diamonds-found-spotlight-canadian-diamonds/#:~:text=Canada is home to five,in Québec and Ontario%2C respectively.

Canada is home to 5 diamond mines and Russia is home to many as well. Not all diamonds are African in origin.