Have the conversation?

[Capricorn3]

6 hours ago, MissCanuck said:

You're over-thinking this. 

I would cut it back to basics: if you two don't even live in the same state, how feasible is it that you'd be able to see each very often? Are you able to travel? Have the time and monetary resources to do so? Does he? 

^ This was my immediate thought too. OP, can you respond to the above, please?

[yogacat]

59 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

I don't actually think that you can know you can trust that person or feel comfortable with them just from talking online. I knew someone who talked to a guy online and then found out later he was a serial killer! I'm not even joking.

That's an extreme example. And people know people in real life and they NEVER thought those people were a serial killer. BTK, hello? 

I did not insinuate (at least I don't think) that someone needs to trust someone implicitly from talking online before meeting them. And I don't think meeting someone in person will tell you if they are a serial killer initially either, lol. 

[SophiaG]

2 hours ago, Tinydance said:

What I don't get though is when people say: "It's too soon to meet, I want to talk more first to get to know you." Meeting someone in person IS talking to them and getting to know them. And whatever you're typing on your phone or computer can be said to them over a meal or drink directly to their face.

Sadly in this day and age people who say that on dating apps are often scammers 😂 I met (or didn't meet) who invented all kinds of reasons why he couldn't meet in person and kept trying to love bomb me over text. Since then I dropped anyone who sounds remotely similar or don't want to meet after a few days.

[SophiaG]

1 hour ago, yogacat said:

Albeit for some people they may prefer to establish some kind of rapport or comfort level with someone before putting themselves in a position where they are physically alone with that person. People's initial comfort levels vary.

True! Also meeting in person is time consuming so people (especially women who tend to get more matches it seems) have to be selective about who to meet. I usually exchange a dozen of messages/let the small talk go on for a couple of days to gauge if we can at least have a fun conversation. Many dating apps are adding the verification feature to weed out low effort catfish/scam so I'm not overly worried about safety - I always make plans to meet in public for sure. I don't like doing phone calls first when you are basically strangers, it feels like talking to customer service 😂

[yogacat]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

For sure.  I would not have wanted to meet that person because it would have told me we weren't compatible enough.  And I was never physically alone -always met in a public place. I only wanted to meet people who were on the site to date in person and meet ASAP because they were looking for marriage and had busy, reasonably successful lives- professional and social. 

If they were so scared to meet for coffee for an hour and thought typing and talking was a good way to get over that fear I'd know we weren't simpatico. On a practical level I didn't have that amount of time plus I was in a city teeming with single professionals so I didn't need to wait around for someone to figure out I might bite into a biscotti but not them.  I was also very extroverted and while I really enjoyed being with and around shy people I knew many shy people who were eager to meet one on one instead of going to a crowded singles event. 

Totally fine for people who want to type and talk online at length before meeting if that works for them.

I met many men where we had  great rapport over the phone and the messages and not inperson.  I spoke with many men who were wonderful writers online and the phone call was a dud so I did not meet them. Also I knew I wouldn't know if there was chemistry before meeting in person -looks being a very minor reason why - so I didn't want to spend time developing rapport with a stranger (for online penpals -sure)

Indeedy!

Something led OP to hesitate to meet after exchanging two messages...Imagine if you met someone for the first time in person, exchanged a few words, and then he asks you out for a date right now!

I'm just saying that in my opinion it might not be accidental hesitancy. It can be insightful too.

OTOH, I spoke via messages and by phone with someone for a month before we met in person. He was introduced to me via mutual friends (he said he saw me on their socials, and he wanted to talk to me).

I liked him from our phone conversations and through our messages, but I didn't immediately jump on the idea of meeting. After a bit, I asked him if he wanted to meet me and he said yes and he said "he had wondered when I'd be up for eventually meeting." 

When I met him in person, I was a bit on the fence. We started dating (🙂) and I ended up, like realllllllllllly, liking him.

OP, after you declined meeting the first time, how long did you wait to mention it again?

Something led he and you not to talk about it further. An hour drive doesn't seem that far, but, you do live in different states.

He's proven that he wants to talk to you and be in touch with you as friends. Are you okay with just being friends? 

One thing he did say, and I don't know if anyone else mentioned it, but he said that:

Quote

"he ruins important relationships"

 So I am guessing he may mean romantic ones.

[Kwothe28]

18 hours ago, MCsquared said:

Do I just accept that this will only ever be a friendship or do I push for clarity that it could ever become romantic? I feel like I already know the answer but something in me feels I need to hear him say that we will never be dating or more than friends.

Why do you need a definite answer? You have to understand that you will never get that from some people. He would probably never said he would definitely be one or the other. He is fine with this. You play his "quasi girlfriend" and he has no obligations toward you at all. Otherwise in 4 months he would make a genuine effort to see you. Which, to be fair to him, he did and called you out to see you when he was passing through your state. But then you didnt wanted to see him. Do you see how confusing you even are with that?

Anyway, I dont think you need a definite answer. And that you can just say to him that you are looking for genuine romantic connection and not whatever you have with him. And that in a spirit of that, you need to stop talking to him.

But sadly, you have too much of a crush there to do that so you you will probably just continue whatever this is.

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I don't actually think that you can know you can trust that person or feel comfortable with them just from talking online. I knew someone who talked to a guy online and then found out later he was a serial killer! I'm not even joking.

No you cannot at all.  That is why I met in a public place and no alcohol with rare exception (if I had any it was a half glass of wine).  Never got in his car with rare exception and one exception was a mistake.  I felt comfortable enough with those boundaries -meet in a public place for lunch and most often not a full evening with dinner unless we had mutual friends/acquaintances which did happen.  That raised the level of trust. Also back then I was very social, extroverted and very street smart so this way of meeting people was well suited for me. And I'd gone on many blind dates prior so it was a familiar way to meet people.

[Batya33]

8 hours ago, yogacat said:

Something led OP to hesitate to meet after exchanging two messages...Imagine if you met someone for the first time in person, exchanged a few words, and then he asks you out for a date right now!

I'm just saying that in my opinion it might not be accidental hesitancy. It can be insightful too.

I would be very cautious.  A few guys asked me what size engagement ring I would want lol.  Ugh.  As with anything if the person was too familiar, too forward, lacked common sense or social skills then I didn't see him again.  If he asked me out for a date right away and I felt that was "off" or too soon depending on context I'd say "that's so flattering -since we just now met let's see how it goes, ok?"

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I don't actually think that you can know you can trust that person or feel comfortable with them just from talking online. I knew someone who talked to a guy online and then found out later he was a serial killer! I'm not even joking.

I found out one was accused of a white collar crime so I didn't meet him -didn't want to take the chance- and one who contacted me a number of times over the years had assaulted me in the past. I got him banned or suspended from Eharmony which I wasn't even a paying member of. (He was lying about his age).

[MCsquared]

I appreciate everyone’s comments on here but honestly I feel more confused than ever.

Yes I previously posted about this as I am still lost. We have not had a video chat yet. I did ask him recently about having one and if he was still interested in meeting and he said yes to both. I was going to suggest the video call next week when he will be at a job site for two weeks so he will have more time in one place. 

I didn’t meet him the first time he asked, which was a day or two after we first started messaging, when I found out he didn’t live in the area. I knew it probably wasn’t a good idea as it didn’t have a future but I fell into the trap of getting attached to him and that maybe I was wrong and that this could go somewhere. I do not think he is any kind of scammer or bad person. If he lived in my area I would have met him right away. Funny enough I don’t want to be penpals with anyone but for some reason I can’t seem to let go of this guy. 

I had asked him a few weeks into talking why he matched with me initially if he knew that he didn’t live in my city. I said were you just looking for someone for a night or two? He said no, that’s not his style. He said first it was attraction and then he got to know me more. He had told me at that point that he wasn’t talking to other girls, even said he probably shouldn’t admit that but it was true. I think he doesn’t want to hurt me as he doesn’t know where this could go either but neither one of us seem to be willing to have the hard talk. Or maybe I’m interpreting this entirely wrong and he’s playing me. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt as he has been honest with me all along.

I try to tell myself just having him as a friend is enough and I enjoy speaking with him so much. We are so much alike and he does genuinely seem to care. He has been hurt in the past by girls and I think he still isn’t completely over some of those hurts so he holds himself back. He has said he self sabotages important relationships and maybe it is a good thing we have the distance. I am unable to go to him as he is several states away and he travels the majority of time. He is home for a week at a time and then on the road again for several weeks. We do talk about him visiting my state and how much fun it would be and that he would like to. He mentioned saving his points with the car rental service to have enough to use for when he is here. A few weeks after we started talking on the app he was the one to ask if I wanted to talk on the phone and possibly meet someday. I said yes to both. I said I don’t know how smart it would be but I’m definitely interested.

I want more with him but I don’t know how to approach it. If I don’t push and ask for these things I don’t see how I’ll ever know if we do have a future. As posters have mentioned, we aren’t in a relationship, I can’t ask him if he wants to date me as we have never met. I feel like a video call would be the first step, to see if he would even do it when push comes to shove. And see how we interact face to face. I’m obviously not content with the current arrangement. I definitely don’t want to walk away from him as he hasn’t done anything wrong. Most of this is my projection/anxiety/wants. As posters have mentioned, I might have self sabotaged myself, maybe I am emotionally unavailable to a degree. He never lead me on, he came in heavy with the compliments but overall, he has been consistent with me. He calls if I ask or if I’m having a bad day. He makes the time to talk…so I don’t know. I don’t know where this leaves me. I don’t want to make rash decisions and block him and tell him to F off. I don’t want to blow it up. But whatever this is is making me crazy. I don’t know how to interact with him now as I’m on high alert. I feel like I should be distancing myself but that also feels like a tactic to force his hand. If I just disappeared would he notice? So many conflicting thoughts around this whole situation and it kills me because I wish I had stuck to my guns from the beginning and wished him well and moved on.

He has mentioned he has this thing where he is always striving to make changes in his life and decisions. Big sweeping changes, like how to make more money or advance himself. That he isn’t content, he’s always thinking about the next thing. I feel like he has a lot of internal conflict and I know he isn’t entirely happy with his life. He’s going to turn 40 in a few weeks and I think he feels like he isn’t where he thought he would be in life by this age. 

So I don’t know where this leaves me, how to move forward or what to do. To be honest, some of the comments here have made me feel like I’m a villian and I’ve been leading him on and being a complete crazy person. I admit my faults and insecurities but I don’t know if this whole situationship is entirely my fault. I’m not looking to assign blame, just honestly looking for guidance and a sympathetic ear.

Sorry for the long post. 

[MissCanuck]

I would simply ask him to have a video-call. I am surprised you haven't already done this after 4 months, even just to verify that he is who you believe you have been talking to. 

See how he reacts to that. All of this ruminating is draining your emotional energy when you have no idea if you two would even mesh well in person. I would hold off on analyzing all of this unless and until there is a concrete plan to meet. But I would also not let this drag on much more, simply because you have developed an emotional attachment and it's going to be pretty hard to take a step back if you learn he isn't interested in actually meeting you after all this time. 

I would also caution you because it doesn't seem you have the ability to travel to him, even if you did meet and hit it off. What would this really amount to, in practical terms? 

[SophiaG]

5 hours ago, MCsquared said:

I was going to suggest the video call next week

Good plan. Until then just relax and talk a bit if you like but before you actually "meet" him in some capacity all this is just over analyzing and unnecessarily worrying/exhausting yourself.

5 hours ago, MCsquared said:

He has said he self sabotages important relationships and maybe it is a good thing we have the distance.

I would be cautious of this rhetoric as it sounds like he's giving you a disclaimer for future hurtful behavior or he sounds avoidant.

5 hours ago, MCsquared said:

I definitely don’t want to walk away from him as he hasn’t done anything wrong.

He doesn't need to do anything wrong for you to walk away. Walking away is not a punishment to him just looking out for yourself and deciding this is no longer working for you (as you are starting to feel now).

5 hours ago, MCsquared said:

He makes the time to talk…so I don’t know.

Again, he just told you he had too much time on his hands when traveling/driving. Making time for some phone calls is hardly a tall order for him.

5 hours ago, MCsquared said:

I don’t want to make rash decisions and block him and tell him to F off.

No need to do that either way. You can simply let him know you are busier now and won't have as much time to talk. Then tone down your communication to the occasional online friend level. And you should be busier - spend more time with people in your city/area who you can build a stronger connection with.

6 hours ago, MCsquared said:

some of the comments here have made me feel like I’m a villian and I’ve been leading him on and being a complete crazy person.

Sorry to hear that! I might not have read every post here but I don't recall seeing anyone saying you're a villain or crazy person. You seem to have a tendency of second guessing yourself or feeling bad when it's entirely unwarranted. Maybe something to unpack and explore with a therapist or trusted friend.

[Andrina]

On 9/13/2024 at 8:09 AM, MCsquared said:

He has said he self sabotages important relationships and maybe it is a good thing we have the distance. I am unable to go to him as he is several states away and he travels the majority of time. He is home for a week at a time and then on the road again for several weeks. We do talk about him visiting my state and how much fun it would be and that he would like to. He mentioned saving his points with the car rental service to have enough to use for when he is here.

When people come with warning labels, listen. They know themselves better than anyone, and they are setting this up to prevent guilty feelings when you don't heed the warnings and proceed. And then he can say, "Well, I told you so. You came into this with eyes wide open."

You're giving these excuses as to why you can't presently meet him, so how will this change in the future? Sounds like he has no money to travel outside of business since he mentions needing points for a rental vehicle.

This is not a friendship because you're infatuated. Not fair to continue with communication if you expect to ever date locally. If a guy you were dating was communicating with a woman he wanted more from like in your situation, would you be comfortable with that?

Your self-deprecating talk makes it clear your self-worth needs a lot of work. Please read books on how to do that, or you will be attracting predators since they seek weak prey.

All the time and energy you're pouring into this nowhere man could be spent on getting out into the world and meeting local men. 

[MCsquared]

So I texted him this afternoon and said hey I was wondering if you were up for the video chat, figured the weekend would be easier. Told him I would like to show him the garden and get his opinion on something.

He read the text, didn’t respond. Two hours later I said so that’s a ?

He responded yes send me a video of the garden would love to see it…didn’t comment on the video chat.

So I video called him, he didn’t pick up. Shocker.

I guess I have all the answers i need now. Something isn’t right if he’s a single man, traveling alone, why he couldn’t pick up a video call. Or say he was busy let’s do it at x, y, z time.  Even as a friend, why wouldn’t you want to talk to someone face to face? I can’t imagine. 

Figured you would all enjoy that. Proud of myself for doing this and extremely sad and disappointed at the same time. 

[yogacat]

5 minutes ago, MCsquared said:

So I texted him this afternoon and said hey I was wondering if you were up for the video chat, figured the weekend would be easier. Told him I would like to show him the garden and get his opinion on something.

He read the text, didn’t respond. Two hours later I said so that’s a ?

He responded yes send me a video of the garden would love to see it…didn’t comment on the video chat.

So I video called him, he didn’t pick up. Shocker.

I guess I have all the answers i need now. Something isn’t right if he’s a single man, traveling alone, why he couldn’t pick up a video call. Or say he was busy let’s do it at x, y, z time.  Even as a friend, why wouldn’t you want to talk to someone face to face? I can’t imagine. 

Figured you would all enjoy that. Proud of myself for doing this and extremely sad and disappointed at the same time. 

Not necessarily a red flag, some people just don't like to video chat, but definitely something to pay attention to. Some people are awkward on the video; others are hiding their wife and children...

I'm sorry. 

[MCsquared]

I'm curious to see if he'll call or text or video back at some point.

I hung up on the video chat but did t leave a message oe text him again. Think I'm just gonna lean way back.

[SophiaG]

Sorry for what happened. Glad you made the move though. Sure some people are uncomfortable with video calls out of the blue but after 4 months and suggestions of video calls/meeting in person? Not addressing the video chat part of the question is quite suspicious - either he looks nothing like his photos or has something else to hide. Time to write this off and move on.

[MCsquared]

Just now, SophiaG said:

Sorry for what happened. Glad you made the move though. Sure some people are uncomfortable with video calls out of the blue but after 4 months and suggestions of video calls/meeting in person? Sounds quite suspicious - either he looks nothing like his photos or has something else to hide. Time to write this off and move on.

That's why I texted him first..he could have said yes or no, proposed a time. 

Was this a bad thing to do?

[SophiaG]

Just now, MCsquared said:

Was this a bad thing to do?

Not at all. I was agreeing with you this was a red flag and I would stop texting/calling him.

[yogacat]

30 minutes ago, MCsquared said:

I'm curious to see if he'll call or text or video back at some point.

I hung up on the video chat but did t leave a message oe text him again. Think I'm just gonna lean way back.

I'd stop corresponding with him at this point.

It sucks but there were a few clues along the way, wanting to meet up immediately while passing through your town; then not wanting to meet up with you when you asked in advance; reiterating that he just wants friendship; saying he's self-destructive in romantic relationships.

[Tinydance]

14 minutes ago, MCsquared said:

That's why I texted him first..he could have said yes or no, proposed a time. 

Was this a bad thing to do?

No absolutely not! You've constantly been speaking for four months. Even if you are just friends but personally I would want to be able to video call the friend. Like, hear their voice, have a laugh together. And yes show your house, garden, your pets, whatever. People sometimes have online friends and it really adds to the friendship to do that. And if he said he wants to see the garden then why would he only want a video when he could see it live? The fact that he just refuses to video call is definitely very suspicious. 

To be honest my guess is that he's not actually single. Maybe he does travel for work but when he's home he has someone there. Girlfriend or wife. And he said to you that you're just friends so that if you did find out he had a girlfriend or she found out, he'd say: "Oh but I didn't actually cheat because we are just friends." Even if he's nervous to video call but he said he feels very close to you and he "found his person". He should feel comfortable by now to at least video call for 5 - 10 minutes to see the garden. So guaranteed he has lied to you about *something*. Whether it he his relationship status, his appearance, age. There is something he didn't tell you or led you to believe that's not true.

My advice for next time is to stop worrying what that person thinks. E.g. If you're pushing them or whatever. This might sound bad but if YOU want a relationship then you need to look out for yourself. If someone only wants to be friends, who cares why? You don't want just friends. I think you do need to tell the person: "Look I want a relationship. If this isn't going to be one then this is not for me." Doesn't matter why they don't want a relationship. It's not about them, it's about you. And yes you were giving him the girlfriend experience without any expectations or him having to do anything in return. But you don't have to do that. You need to be clear on what you want and you stick to that.

[Batya33]

I'd never do an unscheduled video call but I also would never promise I'd do one or say I was open to a video calll.  I'm glad you're planning to move on. I agree with the others.

[MissCanuck]

10 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I'd never do an unscheduled video

Me neither. I despise this, actually. I don't like the assumption from the caller that I can stop whatever I'm  doing and hold my phone to my face. 

However, on the occasion that I get a spontaneous video call (from someone I know, obviously), I return their call and let them know when I am available to talk on video, and arrange for a mutually-convenient time. (assuming I actually want to speak to them this way)

This guy? Not sure you're getting the full story from him, OP. See if he returns your call. He may not have been able to answer at that moment, but if he doesn't get back to you at all, you will know something is not right. 

 

[MCsquared]

So far no text, call or a response of any kind. I can understand not being able to chat, even for five minutes, but to not acknowledge it at all….even if he was annoyed that I called “ out of the blue” which I didn’t, don’t you send a response or hit an automatic reply saying can’t talk now or call back? What’s so horrible about a video call? In this day and age with Teams and Zooms calls being a normal thing? 

I also did only video after he told me he wanted to see a video of the garden, so he was accessible to his phone. If he’s sitting in a hotel room, by himself, what would have prevented him from picking up? Or shooting a text back? I don’t feel entitled that he should drop everything for me but this doesn’t sound odd to anyone? 

I’m tired of analyzing this, and I did what I do, I can’t undo it. I’m not reaching out to him…I feel the behavior is odd, I can’t understand what he could be hiding but this doesn’t work for me anymore then I have nothing to regret. I can’t handle being just friends with someone whom I want more with. I’ll never be able to let myself look for a relationship while he is hanging the wings. It wouldn’t be fair to the person I’m dating that this guy would always take priority. Especially if this guy has a relationship with someone else already and I’m just a fool sitting by waiting for him to play with me when he’s ready. I do feel bad that I couldn’t sit in the uncertainty and just consider him a friend but you don’t have to accept friend status with someone you wanted to date. Maybe I ruined a friendship but it is what it is. 

[Batya33]

11 minutes ago, MCsquared said:

So far no text, call or a response of any kind. I can understand not being able to chat, even for five minutes, but to not acknowledge it at all….even if he was annoyed that I called “ out of the blue” which I didn’t, don’t you send a response or hit an automatic reply saying can’t talk now or call back? What’s so horrible about a video call? In this day and age with Teams and Zooms calls being a normal thing? 

I also did only video after he told me he wanted to see a video of the garden, so he was accessible to his phone. If he’s sitting in a hotel room, by himself, what would have prevented him from picking up? Or shooting a text back? I don’t feel entitled that he should drop everything for me but this doesn’t sound odd to anyone? 

I’m tired of analyzing this, and I did what I do, I can’t undo it. I’m not reaching out to him…I feel the behavior is odd, I can’t understand what he could be hiding but this doesn’t work for me anymore then I have nothing to regret. I can’t handle being just friends with someone whom I want more with. I’ll never be able to let myself look for a relationship while he is hanging the wings. It wouldn’t be fair to the person I’m dating that this guy would always take priority. Especially if this guy has a relationship with someone else already and I’m just a fool sitting by waiting for him to play with me when he’s ready. I do feel bad that I couldn’t sit in the uncertainty and just consider him a friend but you don’t have to accept friend status with someone you wanted to date. Maybe I ruined a friendship but it is what it is. 

I'm sorry you're so upset about this. I wouldn't try to analyze any of it.  It has nothing to do with "men" or dating -you weren't dating. If there's any evaluation perhaps you'll take insights, wisdom or lessons from it if you so choose.  For example after a number of times being flaked on by women who asked for help on my Facebook mom groups -whether it was with looking for a job, a place to live, etc I was doing too much and wasting my time investing in trying to help those who were acting in an unreliable and flaky way.  So now I have ways of being much more selective and decreasing the time wasting.  

Also is that the garden where you live -I'd avoid that since then it's so easy for him to find out where  you live exactly and for safety purposes these people are still strangers.  People move towards pleasure and away from pain with rare exception.  He liked things status quo it seems - typing and  talking when it was convenient with the added bonus of being flattered by your obvious interest in him,  You until now chose to avoid being more firm and assertive about meeting in person or progressing that way because you didn't want the online chatting to end.  That's how I see it -JMHO.  I'm so glad you are moving on.