Change without an apology

[Cherylyn]

@Coily 😆  There are different categories of men in this world.  Those who tick all the boxes in the high quality character department and those who are better suited for partners or spouses who have no qualms having a mutual understanding of dismissing apologies because it's not important to them. 

The problem with just change is that many times,  it's temporary until the next offense.  Then again,  there's no apology to be had,  change and a repeated pattern.  This gets old real fast.  ☹️ 

People burn out because they know history repeats itself.  It's called radical acceptance.  Accept no change in behavior regarding sincere apologies.  You can't change a man but you have the right to choose a better man who knows how you treat you right.  That you can do so do it. 

Who says you have to be stuck with a boyfriend whom you're not happy with?  🤨

There are amazing men in this world.  Granted,  they're difficult to find but they're out there.  It's like finding a needle in a haystack.  Hope luck is on your side @eastcoastgal. 

[Coily]

1 minute ago, Cherylyn said:

There are different categories of men in this world.  Those who tick all the boxes in the high quality character department and those who are better suited for partners or spouses who have no qualms having a mutual understanding of dismissing apologies because it's not important to them. 

Oh so now you're going to blow me up with little lectures. fantastic.

[rainbowsandroses]

What I'm about to say does not apply to @eastcoastgal BF because he has proven himself to be a "bad apple" (to put it kindly).  And she should never have gotten back together with him in the first place, that's on HER. 

Anyway... 

I think it would be immensely helpful to not apply "black and white" thinking and "absolutes" to these types of situations because I've witnessed situations (with my brothers and their girlfriends for example) whereby after my brother offered a sincere heartfelt apology, once he verbally admitted to that "wrongdoing," instead of graciously accepting and moving forward, he never heard of end of it!!  

SHE would hold it against him, gaslight him, guilt-trip him up the wazoo whenever the opportunity presented itself etc etc etc. 

Ultimately she never forgave him regardless so now my brother uses his actions (which is what truly counts) to say he's sorry and if she's unwilling to accept that, then HE dumps her.

And no he's not toxic or a narcissist, he's a very sensitive caring man who made a mistake and attempting to make up for it with actions. 

It can go both ways guys.  

That is why context is so important which we finally got after @Kwothe28 linked OP's previous thread. 

But generally speaking let's get past B&W thinking and assuming that it's always the men who gaslight, stone wall, etc.and at least try to understand the other's perspective and why a man may not feel comfortable with a verbal apology.

Hate to say this since I'm female, but women are sometimes the perpetrators as well which is what @Coilymay have been referring to. 

Seen it with my own eyes in my brother's relationships and observing the world in general.

JMO.

 

 

[Cherylyn]

I agree,  it's not all on men.  For example,  there was a female who falsely accused me of wrongdoing.  A mutual person whom we know,  actually vouched for me,  was able to corroborate my truth yet this female never apologized to me whenever we've occasionally crossed unavoidable paths.  Gender doesn't matter. 

I must say I had a recent lunch with this female and not once throughout the entire 3 hours I was with her did she ever offer a genuine apology.  It was awkward,  uncomfortable as I waited,  waited and waited.  An apology is never forthcoming nor will it ever.  I know her pattern of gaslighting and shutting people down should you confront.  Narcissists love a good fight.  I do not engage.  This was a test and I now know what I'm no longer willing to do.  I will decline a lot in a multitude of ways.  No more gravy train from me.  This tap had been permanently turned OFF.  Even if she were to change sans an apology,  something inside me died already.  Something inside me got up and left.  My desire to resume previous innocent times is dead and gone.  Without that sincere in person apology,  the relationship disintegrated. 

Not everyone is the same regarding accepting or not accepting apologies either.  Some heal because of sincere apologies whereas others will always remind the perpetrator what they had done and therefore,  trust had been irrevocably broken. 

However,  in many cases if there's a humble apology coupled with real effort to improve PERMANENTLY,  healing and recovery is quite possible without rehashing past transgressions.  Note the key word is PERMANENT. 

If there's a repetitive pattern of constant or intermittent offenses,  no amount of apologies nor fixes to change will make a difference in a floundering relationship.  After a while the victim no longer believes nor trusts empty apologies only for any offenses to repeat itself.  In this case,  naturally,  the victim becomes wary,  jaded,  skeptical and burned out.  Interest in the relationship wanes quickly.  Same old behaviors over and over again.  Desire to associate with said perpetrator is no more.  No surprise there. 🤨

If it were me and it has been me,  I'm not too proud to apologize in person.  I park my ego at the door and tell that person I made a bad mistake and I'm very sorry.  I've seen results.  I've received more respect and there is definite improvement.  The relationship is on solid footing once more.  It is very doable. 

I've taught my sons to admit and verbally apologize.  They've observed my husband and I apologize to each other in order to make amends and express humility.  Outcomes have been quite positive.  We are fortunate to set fine examples to our sons.  Not everyone is blessed to observe this humility in one's home life. 

I can't speak for @eastcoastgal but for me,  if a person gives me an in person,  verbal,  sincere apology after they've admitted their blunder,  I welcome the apology and become quite forgiving.  I respect the apologizing person all the more.  I think more highly of them due to their humility.  I believe them if they stay true to their word and never allow repeat offenses in the future.  I can heal and recover.  I can gradually let my guard down enough to build my trust in them again.  It's very possible and feasible.  I can start anew.  The relationship can flourish once more.  This is the best case scenario.   Unfortunately,  best case scenarios are rare or unusual.  Best case scenarios are not universal.  Save those best case scenarios for Hallmark movies and stories in a book or magazine.  🙄 😒

 

 

 

[SophiaG]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

SHE would hold it against him, gaslight him, guilt-trip him up the wazoo whenever the opportunity presented itself etc etc etc.

Then obviously, she's not a good partner and wouldn't become a better one had he not apologized. As sad as the situation was, he recognized it and dodged a bullet. What was wrong with owning up to his mistake and giving her a chance to show her true colors?

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

let's get past B&W thinking and assuming that it's always the men who gaslight, stone wall, etc.

Who said it's always the men who do such things? Of course women can too.

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

why a man may not feel comfortable with a verbal apology

Therefore it's not only "typical men" who might not be comfortable with apologizing, and I stand by my opinion that any partner who's incapable of an sincere apology when needed, is not a great partner. To put this as a "male perspective" versus the "women weaponizing apologies" is kinda sexist and missing the point.

[Batya33]

5 hours ago, itsallgrand said:

It's rather concerning you say he never apologies nor takes any accountability. I totally understand not being able to move forward if you feel that way about him.

I'm not sure what he has done. What was his mistake, what are the changes he made? 

Not being able to take accountability in general though would be a deal breaker for me and I'm sure a lot of other people. Relationships aren't perfect, we all make mistakes. It's hard to trust someone or recover from those mistakes if there isn't accountability on both sides for oneself. 

I wanted to add that to me in a healthy LTR humility goes a long way.  Apologizing is humbling fairly often.  Humility is important to me anyway because it's part of being partners, a team.  Recognizing that for the good of the relationship you admit your mistakes.  Sometimes before I get upset with my husband I self-talk and remind myself about this -that I'm sure there are many times he cuts me slack because I am irritable or whatever -that I am not perfect and slip -and I will say nothing or wait longer to see if I am still upset the next day -if it can wait.  A partner who apologizes with sincerity is saying "I am putting you/us above ego and pride because you are more important to me than holding myself out as having made a mistake -but not having to admit it verbally. 

Yes he is walking the walk -this is a good thing- but like others said can you live with this as his MO?

[rainbowsandroses]

53 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

I stand by my opinion that any partner who's incapable of an sincere apology when needed, is not a great partner.

^^And that's perfectly okay just as I stand by my opinion.

And to clarify I just used the situation with my brother as one example.

It's happened with my other brothers in a few instances as well (I had five, one passed), men in the support group I used to attend.

Get on any men's forum and read and learn about what many men experience with their girlfriends, wives and the women they date.

We even had two men here chime in with the male perspective which pretty much got "shot down".... just sayin.  It goes both ways! 

I don't intend to sound sexist but I'm a big observer of the world and this is what I've observed. 

Judge every situation individually, get the facts before making blanket statements such as "if a man isn't capable of a sincere (verbal) apology, he's bad partner."

No offense but that is about as black and white a statement as I've ever heard.  

I also think it's unfair, there are other heartfelt ways of apologizing other than with words. 

But we can agree to disagree.

[SophiaG]

18 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

making blanket statements such as "if a man isn't capable of a sincere (verbal) apology, he's bad partner."

But that's not what I said? We are only using he/him here as that's the OP's situation. Before the "male perspective" was introduced I didn't see it as a men vs women thing at all. I also don't see how I/we disagreeing with Coily's interpretation here is parallel to your brother's ex berating him over an apology...?

[Jaunty]

No way.  

Look.  You told us all that this person is "toxic," a "narcissist," and "abusive" in other posts about him.  

Also in the last topic you made about him, you were hung up on the concept of the apology you needed to get from him.

OK.  But ... a toxic, abusive narcissist is still a toxic, abusive narcissist even if they give a very well crafted apology in exactly the words you want to hear.

Why are you choosing this man?

Please answer.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, SophiaG said:

But that's not what I said? We are only using he/him here as that's the OP's situation. Before the "male perspective" was introduced I didn't see it as a men vs women thing at all. I also don't see how I/we disagreeing with Coily's interpretation here is parallel to your brother's ex berating him over an apology...?

I also don't see it as a man/woman thing.  

[Coily]

55 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

Therefore it's not only "typical men" who might not be comfortable with apologizing, and I stand by my opinion that any partner who's incapable of an sincere apology when needed, is not a great partner. To put this as a "male perspective" versus the "women weaponizing apologies" is kinda sexist and missing the point.

Or are you missing the point? Or have your prejudices?

I have mine, and I'm not cowering from that as we all need to be able to freely express ourselves so any poster can get a fuller perspective and intake a lot of data. When we refuse to try to understand the opposite sex we do ourselves a disservice.

I have been gaslight by an ex who wanted to make me into the villain for anything that i apologized for. The "transgressions" were basically forgetting a birthday, something that I don't celebrate for myself. But I was told I was a shyte human for two years for not remembering dates that were new to me, and my apology was used as me admitting guilt. But I guess being human is sexist?

[Coily]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I also don't see it as a man/woman thing.  

It shouldn't be. I have had weaponized apologies used against me by both sexes. So I see this topic as a moral purity spiral. While yes I have had more women than men do that to me; the worst were the men (a former boss) who tried to brow beat me over minor transgressions.

 

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, Coily said:

he "transgressions" were basically forgetting a birthday, something that I don't celebrate for myself. But I was told I was a shyte human for two years for not remembering dates that were new to me, and my apology was used as me admitting guilt. But I guess being human is sexist?

But I bet there were other instances of her treating you disrespectfully, using your words against you/twisting what you said.  The person who receives the apology can -accept it and move on, accept it but take some time to move on perhaps depending on what happened - or say thank you but I can't continue to be your friend/partner whatever. To me it's completely unfair to stay and villainize the person who apologized. 

[rainbowsandroses]

4 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

But that's not what I said?

Look I don't mean to be adversarial but this is literally what you said:

1 hour ago, SophiaG said:

Therefore it's not only "typical men" who might not be comfortable with apologizing, and I stand by my opinion that any partner who's incapable of an sincere apology when needed, is not a great partner.

OK I'm willing to acknowledge that perhaps it's not what you meant and/or I misinterpreted.

The written word can often be ambiguous and can be interpreted in different ways by different people.

Anyway, thank you for clarifying....

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, Coily said:

It shouldn't be. I have had weaponized apologies used against me by both sexes. So I see this topic as a moral purity spiral. While yes I have had more women than men do that to me; the worst were the men (a former boss) who tried to brow beat me over minor transgressions.

 

I'm really sorry to hear that -i didn't mean you specifically saw it as a man/woman thing.  I believe especially at work - admitting a mistake, apologizing and if at all possible, offering to do damage control and also saying how you plan to prevent a mistake in the future -well to me that's a great person to work with.  I had to send an email like that to my boss a week or so ago and of course the mistake occurred to me in the middle of the night. I was very straightforward and succinct also with the apology -where I work no one wants us to beat ourselves up for mistakes.  

OP consider that if you intertwine your life with this man he will forget to do whatever he promised to do and greatly inconvenience you or worse, he will be irritable and say something rude - and unless he owns up and apologizes then what -you'll wait till next time and if he shows up to drive you home from work as promised the next time then you're supposed to realize he changed or if he is irritable one morning but doesn't snap at you then you'll somehow know he's sorry? I just don't really know how that works.  I say to my son "I'm sorry I overreacted" because he needs to see his mother owning up to not being a great parent at that moment.  You need to see your partner owning up to not having been a great partner to you when he did X - I get it.

[SophiaG]

10 minutes ago, Coily said:

my apology was used as me admitting guilt. But I guess being human is sexist?

Sorry you had bad experience. So you, essentially like rainbow's brother, were in a relationship with an abusive partner. Same question I asked her - did you think she would have not had a reason to be abusive and the relationship would have worked had you not apologized? If not, why is apologizing the issue here?

Being human doesn't have to be sexist. Summarizing your and anecdotal experience as "women do this, so men do that" and use that to justify why men "typically don't apologize" is sexist.

[Coily]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

But I bet there were other instances of her treating you disrespectfully, using your words against you/twisting what you said.  The person who receives the apology can -accept it and move on, accept it but take some time to move on perhaps depending on what happened - or say thank you but I can't continue to be your friend/partner whatever. To me it's completely unfair to stay and villainize the person who apologized. 

She prefaced everything around the apology. She was a definite exception for just about everyone I have met. But a few male friends of mine who were abused (one was stabbed), there was a common thread of weaponized apologies. Where they were held to constantly high standards, and their past indiscretion was trotted out as justification.

(The friend who was stabbed, his indiscretion was being deployed to a combat zone and not keeping in contact with his now ex when he was under fire.)

[SophiaG]

6 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Look I don't mean to be adversarial but this is literally what you said:

OK I'm willing to acknowledge that perhaps it's not what you meant and/or I misinterpreted.

The written word can often be ambiguous and can be interpreted in different ways by different people.

Anyway, thank you for clarifying....

Thank you for understanding. What I meant was that I basically said any person and I thought you interpreted it as any man.

As for black and white statements, I agree many things have nuances and needed to be assessed case by case, but there are some shortcuts I'm willing to take to avoid wasting time or emotions, such as "a partner who cheats is a bad partner," or "abuse is not acceptable in a relationship." For someone to be so egoistic or for whatever reason categorically unwilling to apologize to me is a deal breaker in any relationship.

[Coily]

2 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

Sorry you had bad experience. So you, essentially like rainbow's brother, were in a relationship with an abusive partner. Same question I asked her - did you think she would have not had a reason to be abusive and the relationship would have worked had you not apologized? If not, why is apologizing the issue here?

Being human doesn't have to be sexist. Summarizing your and anecdotal experience as "women do this, so men do that" and use that to justify why men "typically don't apologize" is sexist.

Maybe you aren't parsing it well, writing quickly doesn't lend itself to a fully thought out expression of the concept. Seems you are viewing this through the OP's lens, where her guy isn't great.

When I hear "sexist" I just assume bad faith discussion. That's been my long experience here. So maybe I am not being generous enough to your position. But there have been a poster or two here that are reductionist to "man bad." Where the mutual "hey this is a bad position for anyone" gets buried.

[rainbowsandroses]

19 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

So you, essentially like rainbow's brother, were in a relationship with an abusive partner. Same question I asked her - did you think she would have not had a reason to be abusive and the relationship would have worked had you not apologized? If not, why is apologizing the issue here?

^^ Because when someone (man or woman) experiences such an extreme negative "abusive" reaction to something like a sincere heartfelt apology, they associate the negative reaction/abuse with the apology.

Which may cause them to feel reluctant about giving a verbal apology (to anyone) in the future.. 

Similar to PTSD but obviously not as extreme.

It shouldn't logically, but emotionally it might and if it happens more than once and/or to their friends and family members, they will be even more reluctant.

And thus find other ways of apologizing.

Again, does not apply to OP's guy cause he's just a ***. 

[yogacat]

59 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I also don't see it as a man/woman thing.  

I don't either.

I see it as one persons inability to verbalize apology and it's only the stepping stone.

Without an apology, in this case, you're going to grow more resentful of him and that in turn is going to make him withdraw more and possibly make you more and more angry that he seems incapable of realizing how much he hurt you.

I agree I agree

I see your both hurt.

I also see that your hurt is different than his hurt.

I don't think a lot of people realize that there are many different types of hurt. You might have been emotionally hurt and he was emotionally hurt as well, but how he handled his emotional hurt is different from the way you handled your emotional hurt.

I don't know. You haven't listed his 'offenses.'

I see the problem being at that point you're at today. The two of you are 2 totally different people at the point.

"I'm sorry you had to go through that" is writing the words - I feel sorry that you got hurt but without any admission of responsibility. He's take responsibility through actions rather than words. 

The reply he gave to you is all he is capable of giving you, either you learn to accept it isn't enough while accepting the relationship or you can't accept it and so you can't accept the relationship until he apologizes properly. It certainly holds up the obligations for trust.

The sad thing, he does not owe you an adequate apology it is on his own timetable, because it means you hold expectations for the change and the apology but you don't control it and have no guarantees of it coming. You could wait for him to grow bean sprouts out of his head but you can't expect anything until it shows up, he had his chance to sow an apology and hasn't.

[Cherylyn]

Having been on the receiving end of no apologies from both women and men,  gender doesn't matter.  Sure,  change for the better is good but in the back of my mind,  there will always be deep seeded distrust y planted within the deep recesses of my brain because without an in person,  sincere apology,  there isn't any real closure. 

Whenever painful experiences are ignored and never addressed with an apology,  it feels as if the perpetrator got away without any consequences.  It's as if they were given a "free get out of jail card."  It feels as if they cheated (not in a promiscuous way),  said whatever they wished or did whatever they wished at the victim's expense.  It feels unfair.

If there is improved change,  sure,  it's good but I wonder how long will it last before the next committed transgression?  Is this improved change merely temporary?  Will another offense occur only for no apology to be had?  I begin to wonder if I'm foreseeing an undesirable pattern.  This is why change without an apology breeds distrust. 

Refusing to apologize is a sign of cowardice.  I am peaceful with those who've demonstrated their true colors to me.  In a way,  it benefits me because they've made my life easier.  I no longer give my life to them anymore.  My labor,  time,  energy and money are all mine.  I'm not willing to share myself with narcissists anymore.  I decline a lot and they miss the old me.  The previous me isn't coming back.  Will I be there for them?  No.  Will I help?  No.  Will I be my previous generous self?  No.  My labor?  Nope.  My time and energy for them?  I'm unavailable.  Will I accept invitations?  I will politely decline.  Also,  there are no more withdrawals from my bank account in order to make them happy.  My wallet is thankful indeed.  🤗 👍

@eastcoastgal I know exactly what it feels like when it comes to never hearing,  "I'm sorry for .  .  ." which breeds disdain and contempt.   If I can't respect and admire a person,  why would I want to associate with them?  Why would I want to be with them?  It's not enjoyable anymore.   I have better things to do than waste my time and energy on a person whom I do not like. 

Narcissists beware.  Sooner or later,  you'll overplay your hand and it will backfire sorely.  😖

[rainbowsandroses]

4 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

Having been on the receiving end of no apologies from both women and men,  gender doesn't matter. 

@Cherylyn no one is advocating "no apologies," at least I'm not nor have I read where anyone else has.

Of course when we have hurt or wronged someone, we should apologize, that's a given.

What I have been saying or trying to is that an apology does not always have to be verbal.  

People can apologize with their actions which at the beginning of this thread I thought @eastcoastgal's bf was doing. 

That was before @Kwothe28linked her previous thread and it came to light he was just as ***.

Anyone can toss out an "I'm sorry for..." people do it all the time, and it often means nothing - just meaningless words. Not always but in many cases, my observation.

You mention "narcissists" quite often, well my understanding is narcissists are notorious for tossing out the "I'm sorry's." They know it's what they should say, what they need to say, they're not stupid, so they say it. 

Meaningless words.

Actually showing someone they're sorry with their actions consistent over time can sometimes have a more significant impact.

Personally I have no problem apologizing verbally and I also show with my actions!

But some people as has been explained throughout this thread have had negative experiences after apologizing verbally so they are reluctant to do so and prefer saying I'm sorry with actions.

Hope that clarifies, at least my position on the topic. 

 

 

[Kwothe28]

10 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

That was before @Kwothe28linked her previous thread and it came to light he was just as ***.

I dont argue that he is not bad. Dont think OP ever wrote what he did to her so its vague what happened but she is or was offended by that. And that she took him back now and she expects apology. After she already forgiven him even though she herself branded him as bad. But still took him back after what he did. Maybe she should ask for that apology before she decided to forgive him and be with him again.

Also, I do think that sincere apology would be a nice thing. Just that she expects it from somebody who never done that. Whether its because he doesnt think what he did was bad or he doesnt like saying it, it doesnt matter. I just argue that she should have never taken him back under those circumstances after a year of being separated. He maybe does try to make amends, we dont know that. Just think its futile when it was clear there is too much “bad blood” there and that now she expects him to crawl on nails just so she could forgive him while its clear he wont do it. That kind of situations should have been resolved prior to getting back together. And not now after she already did take him back. That is why I said they never should get back together in the first place. 

[Jaunty]

I am still hoping to get some insight as to how or why a proper apology would make it a good idea to be in a relationship with a toxic, abusive narcissist?  

Seriously I am confused. 

OP  - were you just using those terms, over a series of threads encompassing several months of time, because you were angry?   And he's actually a fine man and appropriate partner for you who simply didn't apologize in the way you'd like?  

Because if that's the case, you might consider forgiving him.

Sadly, however, I don't believe that it is the case.  I think he is not a good, or safe, prospect for a relationship for you or anyone.  

What do you think about this?