Change without an apology

[eastcoastgal]

They say the an apology without change is just manipulation. so what about change with out an apology? My boyfriend and I had broken up for a year over some bad decisions that he made that resulted in me walking away. We reconciled but he never apologized or took any accountability...he never does. But he made the changes I wanted and is more committed than ever. He's literally a new man. Is this good enough? I've been pushing for the apology but he shuts me down. Says he has apologized but saying "I'm sorry you had to go through that' is not an apology. So now I have this mistrust still. Is he just too proud to apologize and he wants to SHOW me that he's sorry? I feel like I can't move forward without it.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, eastcoastgal said:

They say the an apology without change is just manipulation. so what about change with out an apology? My boyfriend and I had broken up for a year over some bad decisions that he made that resulted in me walking away. We reconciled but he never apologized or took any accountability...he never does. But he made the changes I wanted and is more committed than ever. He's literally a new man. Is this good enough? I've been pushing for the apology but he shuts me down. Says he has apologized but saying "I'm sorry you had to go through that' is not an apology. So now I have this mistrust still. Is he just too proud to apologize and he wants to SHOW me that he's sorry? I feel like I can't move forward without it.

I would tell him with I statements not like a lecture "I feel uncomfortable that you haven't apologized to me for [then be very very specific -the specific things he did that you want an apology for -specificity is crucial).  I feel disrespected when you tell me you are sorry I went through that because I went through that because you did ____"  Also highlight "I am happy to see how much you have changed in how you [be specific again]." So he knows it's not all bad.  

Are you two exclusive again? If you are not/don't see this as long term then I might not bother -what's the point if it's just casual dating with no real future intentions?

[MissCanuck]

33 minutes ago, eastcoastgal said:

I feel like I can't move forward without it.

Then you have answered your own question: 

33 minutes ago, eastcoastgal said:

Is this good enough?

No, it's not good enough. You have already figured out how you feel about this. Unless he offers a sincere apology, you can't proceed. 

[eastcoastgal]

2 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Then you have answered your own question: 

No, it's not good enough. You have already figured out how you feel about this. Unless he offers a sincere apology, you can't proceed. 

Absolutely.

[DarkCh0c0]

So he won't admit he's done a mistake(s). He is just "changed" temporarily to please you and not because he actually wants to do so and feels any remorse.

1 hour ago, eastcoastgal said:

I feel like I can't move forward without it.

Then don't. He's not grown nor changed really. He's just behaving as such so you don't give him a hard time about it. It's not sincere. Should have left him in the past where he belonged.

[SophiaG]

How long have you been back together? It's easy to act like a different man for a short period especially with the excitement and joy of a new or newly rekindled romance. It's hard, if not impossible, to become an entirely different man just after one year - especially if he doesn't even feel he did something wrong that requires a sincere apology to begin with.

[Cherylyn]

@eastcoastgal I can relate even though my story is not the same as yours.  However,  there are definite parallels.

No apology with change?  I'd have a problem with it because in the future,  if there are other offenses,  he won't apologize for those transgressions either.  A pattern will develop and he will further disappoint you repeatedly.  It's your call.

Whenever there's no accountability,  it's very telling of his character not being noble nor honorable.  He lacks integrity because he refuses to take responsibility for what he had done to you.  Not treating you with respect is obnoxiously rude.  He'll never own it.  I don't care what his excuses are.  Whenever anyone never offers a humble apology to make sincere amends,  the person wronged will never forget this.  What an apology refusal tells you is this:  You don't matter.  Your feelings don't matter.  The person who doesn't apologize to you is telling you he (or she in other cases) doesn't care about you.

You're expected to move on and should you broach this subject,  you will be shut down.  Gaslighting is another typical response.  "You took it the wrong way" is typical. 😒 In the future,  you will receive:  "I'm sorry you had to go through that" statement again.  Be prepared.    ☹️

I can't move forward either.  Here's another famous line you will most likely receive should you broach this subject:  "You're still stewing over this."  <=== Again,  this is a typical gaslighting response.  😠 😡  To me,  anytime a sincere apology isn't offered,  the relationship is dead to me.  It's a universal thought.  Love dies.  👎

High quality character is everything and without it,  something will always be missing.  It's very difficult if not impossible to move forward without an apology and it's that sincere apology which patches things up towards amends and healing.  It brings closure and without a genuine apology,  your wound continues to remain open and fester.   😒

[rainbowsandroses]

4 hours ago, eastcoastgal said:

he made the changes I wanted and is more committed than ever...

Well imo if this^ isn't enough for you, then agree with some others - end it. 

I'm sure you wouldn't want him apologizing because you had to beg him for it (which is what you're doing and even with the *I* statements you'd still be essentially begging him for it), so you really don't have much choice.

If me?  I would not need the "words."

His actions by actually stepping up and "doing" -- committing and showing you with actions he's committed the way you needed/need him to would be enough.  For me.

But you're not me so you do you.  You need both a sincere apology from his heart with words and his actions.

JMO but in my experience many men and also some women find it difficult to apologize with words, so they apologize with actions like he's doing.

He may be too proud or he may feel tremendous guilt and apologizing with words only exacerbates the guilt, so he prefers and feels more comfortable showing you with actions by actually making the necessary changes and living up to those changes. 

But again if you need both, if you cannot move forward without both, then my advice is stop hassling him about it and end it. 

Forcing him to apologize serves no good purpose whatsoever. 

The words are actually meaningless unless said from his heart on his own anyway.  And followed by actions. 

It's sad though and sorry things didn't work out. 

 

 

 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

Another thought. 

If you stopped hassling him about it and accepted and appreciated that he's actually "walking the walk" and "doing," he may find it in his heart to apologize (with words) on his own, during a quiet intimate moment with you, without you having to ask for it. 

[Cherylyn]

The other day I gave a perpetrator a chance to apologize.  As I sat eating my lunch,  I waited and waited and waited for that person to voluntarily say,  "I'm sorry for .  .  . "  There was no apology to be had.  Then as we were about to part ways in the parking lot,  I still waited for that apology.  I never broached the subject nor confronted this person about nagging for an apology.  I knew history would repeat itself with her typical gaslighting and shutting me down as we've traveled down this road so many times before.  😠Since an apology will never be forthcoming in a million years and just as we were about to climb into our separate cars to go home,  I told this person that we will not gather our families together for upcoming holidays or other events this year and into the future.  Yes,  I dropped the bomb.  She didn't see that coming.  What goes around comes around.  🤔 

I can be peaceful yet extremely firm with my steadfast,  unwavering,  strict boundaries. 

Here's the deal:   If I don't get what I want,  you don't get what you want either.  It works both ways.  Fair is fair.   Let's be equal.

This applies to many relationships.  I no longer have the desire to give of myself if the other person isn't willing to be honorable and decent by saying the right thing.  Not just doing.  I don't demand nor command an apology either.  I give the perpetrator the opportunity to apologize and if it's never forthcoming,  I'm out.  Finished.  Done.  I've lost all respect for that person and most of all,  I've lost my desire to be with that person.  Something is missing.  I don't want to be with that person anymore.  Desire is dead.  I want to do my own thing and during other times,  I prefer to be with a person or people who know how to behave properly. 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, SophiaG said:

It's hard, if not impossible, to become an entirely different man just after one year - especially if he doesn't even feel he did something wrong that requires a sincere apology to begin with.

With respect, the bolded is an assumption

We have no idea whether he feels he did something wrong or not or feels no remorse.

Certainly saying "I'm sorry" is not reflective of believing he did anything wrong, lots of people apologize without feeling they did anything wrong. Or that they feel remorse.

Many say it to appease their partner, it means jack **** which is why for ME I don't need the words. 

A man's actions is where it's at, which is what I personally focus on.  

Here we need more context from the OP imo.  What was the "wrong" she feels he did, how long have they been back together and if his actions showing he's committed have been consistent and sincere over time. 

@eastcoastgalcan you provide? 

 

[yogacat]

5 hours ago, eastcoastgal said:

I've been pushing for the apology but he shuts me down. Says he has apologized but saying "I'm sorry you had to go through that' is not an apology.

You're not going to get anywhere trying to "push" him toward an apology, much like you cannot "push" someone to forgive. Both have to come from inside a person, and pushing him is going to yield a shallow, insincere apology or forgiveness.

Perhaps a better question for you is not "Is change without an apology good enough?" but "Am I willing and able to move forward and fully repair the relationship without an apology?"

You say you can't, so that means you have not actually forgiven.

I find that often, those who cannot say sorry are the very ones acting tough and never backing down. They do this not because they are strong but precisely because they are weak: for one's self-esteem to be strong enough to support the emotional discomfort apologizing brings with it is to be able to tolerate a temporary ding without our ego crumbling.

Is he afraid to look weak? Is he insecure about admitting defeat? For many people, that can be an awfully tough thing to admit one has let someone down.

Well, if he is not ready to take any introspection and persists in saying he has nothing to apologize for, then this may be about the time to say goodbye.

Actions mean so much, and an apology is a crucial part in rebuilding, in order to mend broken TRUST.

Some don't need verbal acknowledgement but for YOU it's part of your forgiving/healing process.

[Batya33]

My son used to watch Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood which was supposed to be sort of a spin off of Mr. Roger's Neighborhood which I grew up with. With respect to apologizing the show emphasized that the person who did wrong should say "I'm sorry" AND "how can I help" therefore - not only was the sorry not just words but the second part reflected the person's intention to try to make it right. Now, it looks like maybe -at least temporarily, for now -his actions reflect "how can I help make this right" but if he doesn't wish to express that he is sorry for how he wronged you then you can't know if his actions are for some other reason and/or are just temporary.  Expressing that he is sorry and connecting up his actions will resolve that.  I emphasize both parts as a parent with my son and because of the second part it often confirms that it's not just words, it's a commitment to do better.

Also for me it would depend on what the transgression was. My husband worked on his tendency to be late.  He does a lot better over the last several years.  He does apologize when he is late.  But he also told me he changed because he realized it was selfish to be late so he expressed self-awareness in that way.

[Cherylyn]

Both is ideal such as improved actions and a sincere apology.  The problem with change without an apology is that you'll have to grow accustomed to every transgression never including an apology.  This repetitive pattern can continue for months and years. 

When there's change minus an apology which you'll have to accept partial satisfaction in silence if you want to keep the peace.  Put up and shut up is the expectation.  You'll have to play along to get along. 😒

Usually people who don't apologize don't care how you feel because your feelings don't matter to them.  They'll tell you to move on which is a gaslighting thing to say.  Meanwhile your bitterness and resentment continues to boil.

If there's something lacking in a man's (or person's) character,  you'll always be disappointed in him thinking you could've done better in choosing a man who knows how you treasure you with complete respect and honor.  Anything short of a man's integrity and treating you with dignity is a subpar,  less than mediocre individual.

I always look at it this way:  If you're the type of person who apologizes and improves your actions,  then you should expect the same treatment from those who've wronged you.  Wouldn't that make sense? 

If you're the type of person to improve your actions yet ignore apologizing,  then the man would make positive changes minus offering any apology to you.  Since both of you are similar in behavior,  it is a mutual pact.

Not verbally apologizing to you in person is lacking emotional intelligence (empathy).  Those are huge red flags.  Consider yourself forewarned.  🫢

If you're not on the same page nor wavelength,  relationships will eventually flounder into an abyss.   The relationship is not sustainable.
☹️ 🤨 😒 😠

[itsallgrand]

It's rather concerning you say he never apologies nor takes any accountability. I totally understand not being able to move forward if you feel that way about him.

I'm not sure what he has done. What was his mistake, what are the changes he made? 

Not being able to take accountability in general though would be a deal breaker for me and I'm sure a lot of other people. Relationships aren't perfect, we all make mistakes. It's hard to trust someone or recover from those mistakes if there isn't accountability on both sides for oneself. 

[Coily]

Here is something from the male perspective: He could be worried that you will weaponize his apology against him. Some people, maybe not you OP, have the tendency to push for an admission of guilt/apology so they can bludgeon someone over it rather than accept the change of heart.

There is a difference in how men and women deal with social interaction that violate an expectation or trust.  Typically Men do not always need to verbalize a corrective action or behavior, I for one see an overt genuflection when the problem is demonstrably solved a waste of energy for all involved.

It's a matter of perspective. Now you can demand the verbal apology, but what does that really get you that his actions don't provide? But ultimatums usually lead to more resentment, than less. The fact he shuts down, tells me he fears that you will hold this over him.

IF you want to explore this further, then give him some time and see what unfolds. He may give a heartfelt apology and continue his self renovation. Or just the later. The question is, perfection or a man who fixed his problems?

[Cherylyn]

If he fears his offense will be used to weaponize him,  this is a red flag and alarming because he's complicated and tricky.  He's into head trips and mind games.  Beware of complex personalities and take more stock in a humble man who has no qualms owning it,  sincerely apologizing AND be good on his word. 

There is no room for playing games here.  He needs to use common sense.  Sure,  change is commendable but so is actually hearing from him in person that he truly is sorry for what he had done.  People need to hear it;  not just women in particular.  If men in particular don't verbalize,  this is a problem as we cannot read people's minds.  We need to hear it because it does a world of good.  What a lot of people don't realize is that the longer the offender remains silent,  the worse the air of distrust grows.  Distrust meaning he'll shut you down all the time.  I despise anyone who shuts me down. 

An apology when done right puts agitation to rest.  The purpose of a verbal,  in person apology is to actually move forward with good vibes as opposed to always leaving the victim guessing and dragging out bitterness and resentment.  An intelligent person puts a swift end to any discord or distress by giving an in person,  verbal,  genuine apology to quell any hard feelings.

If he's prideful,  he needs to park his ego at the door and say,  "I'm sorry for .  .  ."  And, spare the gaslighting.  Then true healing and recovery begins.  Without the in person,  verbal apology,  it feels awkward and uncomfortable because both sides are forced into silence which is unnatural not to mention over time,  you will no longer enjoy being with the offender anymore. ☹️

[Kwothe28]

Looking at your other threads about the same guy like this one

 

I really wonder why  you did took him back. It was clear that he hurt you and that you paint him as "the worst". But now, after all that you said about him as well, you took somebody like that back? So, the question is who is at fault now that you have taken him back.

Him for not apologizing? Or you for knowing how he is, taking him back knowing that and now requiring some grand apology from a man you labeled "toxic"?

Are you by any chance familiar with the story of a frog and a scorpion?

Quote

A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown if it killed the frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I am sorry, but I couldn't resist the urge. It's my character."

 

[SophiaG]

1 hour ago, Coily said:

Here is something from the male perspective: He could be worried that you will weaponize his apology against him

That might be his rationale but hardly a valid excuse to not apologize when you should. If a partner continues to bring up past wrongdoings or "bludgeon you over it" that's actually a sign that they haven't forgiven you because the wrongdoing was not sufficiently addressed, and a lack of sincere apology can well be the reason. Of course, if the partner gets vindictive, abusive or incapable of forgiving, the relationship is toxic and wouldn't last anyway, but that still doesn't mean you shouldn't apologize.

1 hour ago, Coily said:

Typically Men do not always need to verbalize a corrective action or behavior, I for one see an overt genuflection when the problem is demonstrably solved a waste of energy for all involved.

People (sadly often women) do "forgive" without an apology to keep peace, but keep in mind every time you skip the apology so as not to "waste energy" or diminish your ego you are consuming your partner's goodwill and patience which may eventually wear out. Glad I never dated such typical men!

4 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

5 hours ago, SophiaG said:

It's hard, if not impossible, to become an entirely different man just after one year - especially if he doesn't even feel he did something wrong that requires a sincere apology to begin with.

With respect, the bolded is an assumption

It's an assumption based on what OP said about him shutting her down and offering backhanded apologies such as "sorry you had to go through that." Those are not the actions of someone who are truly apologetic.

43 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

I despise anyone who shuts me down. 

An apology when done right puts agitation to rest. 

Amen!

[rainbowsandroses]

17 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Looking at your other threads about the same guy like this one

 

I really wonder why  you did took him back. It was clear that he hurt you and that you paint him as "the worst". But now, after all that you said about him as well, you took somebody like that back? So, the question is who is at fault now that you have taken him back.

Him for not apologizing? Or you for knowing how he is, taking him back knowing that and now requiring some grand apology from a man you labeled "toxic"?

Are you by any chance familiar with the story of a frog and a scorpion?

 

Thanks for posting this^^ @Kwothe28.

I based my opinion on this thread only not having that previous context and why I asked her for it.

Makes a HUGE difference!

OP you have referred to him as "toxic" and a "narcissist," just dump him and introspect why you ever got back together with him in the first place. 

 

 

[Kampuniform3]

“Fine words butter no parsnips”

and the gold standard:

”Actions speak louder than words”

No one should be pilloried simply for not conforming to-what is in this instance-a trite standard.

 

[Cherylyn]

I've been with people in my midst who've never apologized nor will they ever because they're narcissists.  Narcissists never apologize and if they do,  they'll say,  "I'm sorry you took it the wrong way."  😡  "I'm sorry YOU had to go through that" is about you and not the perpetrator telling you it was because of HIM that you went through that.  <==== That's not an apology.  It's called gaslighting which is deflection. 

When a narcissist shuts you down,  typical gaslighting tactics are used to force you to change your perception of the facts and cause you to question yourself as a diversion from the offender.  It's very manipulative,  psychological warfare and if you're not onto their sneaky strategy,  they're playing you for a fool.  They are the puppet master and you are their puppet. 

I've noticed those who don't apologize don't want to be perceived as weak.  They want power in the relationship.  This is not a democracy.  You are inferior and they're superior to you.  Grow accustomed to it because these are their rules and you have to play if you want peace. 

I've found that to the contrary,  a person who sincerely apologizes is strong because being humble is a symbol of strength,  not weakness.  It requires a strong person to swallow their pride,  be humble and admit wrongdoing preferably verbally in person.  It is actually a character booster and it demonstrates that the person saying they're truly sorry is selfless.  Not apologizing is a selfish act;  a narcissistic act because they're only thinking about their position,  not you. 

No matter how good a person purports to be,  personally,  I've lost all respect and admiration in a person who refuses to admit wrongdoing,  refuses to offer a genuine apology and simply expects you to brush it all under the rug.  Water under the bridge and all that.  😒  Uhh,  I don't think so.  😠

I've noticed that victims don't always complain and explain to the perpetrator.  Many victims take the passive aggressive approach.  They simply drift apart and fade away into oblivion.  They'll decline a lot and sooner or later the offender will take the hint and scram.  It's time to go our separate ways.

Perpetrators need to be in relationships with people who are non-apologetic types.  This way,  treatments are mutual.  There is no need to apologize for anything. 

Meanwhile,  those who know how to behave honorably should be with like minds.  People who apologize to each other tend to have more enduring relationships.  Birds of a feather flock together.

I have several people in my life who've never apologized to me and what did I do?  I've since pumped the brakes on the relationship.  If I can't avoid them entirely,  I no longer see them during the greater part of the year.  My former frequent generosity of time,  labor,  help and money are no more.  I've pulled the rug out from under them.  They're feeling it, too.  😖  No more gravy train from me.  Behave?  I'll knock myself out for you.  Misbehave?  Adios.  You're a waste of my time,  energy and resources. 

I'm only with a man or anyone who possesses integrity and treats me with dignity.  I'm only with anyone who treats me the same as I treat them.  It's called RESPECT.  You can't love a person without respect. 

Whenever a person is treated with disrespect and obnoxious rudeness,  the relationship is dead. 

Sure,  actions speak louder than words but what about the future?  When there are more transgressions,  will it be the same again?  No sincere apology?  Change,  then offenses and no apologies?  Lather,  rinse,  repeat?  That's not a relationship.  That relationship is a joke.

[Coily]

1 hour ago, Cherylyn said:

If he fears his offense will be used to weaponize him,  this is a red flag and alarming because he's complicated and tricky. 

Or he has experienced levels of abuse and gaslighting that most won't understand when he did apologize. Oh right...

[Coily]

51 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

That might be his rationale but hardly a valid excuse to not apologize when you should. If a partner continues to bring up past wrongdoings or "bludgeon you over it" that's actually a sign that they haven't forgiven you because the wrongdoing was not sufficiently addressed, and a lack of sincere apology can well be the reason. Of course, if the partner gets vindictive, abusive or incapable of forgiving, the relationship is toxic and wouldn't last anyway, but that still doesn't mean you shouldn't apologize.

Considering we don't know this guy beyond the OP. Even if there was a sincere apology tendered, if it's ever brought up again, and far too often things get weaponized from the past in turbulent relationships; then the apology was never genuinely accepted.

Words are cheap as our patron saint would say.

[Cherylyn]

Just now, Coily said:

Or he has experienced levels of abuse and gaslighting that most won't understand when he did apologize. Oh right...

He didn't apologize.  That's the problem.  Should she broach the topic,  she'll be met with the watered down version of "I'm sorry YOU went through that."  Boy,  go take a long walk on a short pier.  Boy bye.  That's what I would say. 

A relationship such as this won't last.  It's short term,  not long term.  It won't endure.

I've known several people in my midst reminiscent of @eastcoastgal's boyfriend.  I am peaceful.  However,  I no longer go out of my way being my former generous self.  I did everything for them whether monetarily,  labor,  help,  frequently raced to their doorstep with homemade dinners in tow and always at their disposal.  No apology?  Realizing their "narcissistic rights?"  I'm over it.  ☹️

Actually,  narcissists do you a tremendous favor.  They make my life much EASIER because I no longer do anything for them.  I decline a lot.  It's less work for me.  They've actually caused me to recapture my freedom.  🤗

It's too bad for them.  Too much of a good thing never lasts.  Innocence is lost but it is my huge gain.  My wallet is thankful, too. 👍 @eastcoastgal Your patience or lack thereof will determine the longevity or brevity of your relationship.  Let that be your guideline and timeline.