The herpes stigma

[Batya33]

My sense is Sophia meant the depression example/antidepressants as an example of a very personal sensitive situation that she had shared with a potential partner or partner early on - and I assume she considered -when and how to share that.  And also considered that some men might not be ok with it for whatever reason -however for her to continue on she wanted this person to know.  People have all sorts of dealbreakers or near dealbreakers in romantic relationships.  And it's hard to know sometimes how/when to share the information. Indeed some choose to stop dating and not share because  they sense already what the answer will be based on comments the person makes.  I've been mostly but not totally on the receiving end of personal and sensitive information shared early on.  

I agree with Sophia's input and analysis - I think it's a perfect fit for what you experienced and good to reread.

[ignite]

On 10/12/2024 at 1:17 AM, Morello said:

This is the issue, right here. Because of your idea of yourself (someone who fails in relationships), you're coming from this place when you meet someone. So your actions are all determined by it. Even when you met someone who was not a good fit for you (some people would be fine with the herpes thing, you are not and that's fine), you still wanted to make it work. Just not for the right reasons. I'm sure she also sensed some desperation coming from you, and how conclicted you were when you found out about her herpes. You just wanted to avoid another failed start of a relationship, as they are now weighing you down big time. I know well the feeling mate, it sucks.

Sorry @Morello, forgot to get back to you on this and thanks for your comment. 

Yes I think the above a fair assumption, there was a sense I really didn't want this to fail simply because 1. it started off so promisingly, 2. there was enough about her that I did like so didn't want to discard that and 3. yes there's always that fear of having to start over but more to the point as you get older you realise how difficult it is to meet someone you find attractive and have a connection with, so when you do encounter it, you want to do your best to hold onto that. I suppose that's what I was doing even though deep down there wasn't a total peace about it because of the herpes. I think when she backed away though and disconnected that made me fully realise that I needed to put this issue aside and see for what it is - a minor skin condition which I am not likely to get anyway (with the right precautions).

Anyway there's been some good advice and words on here and I appreciate that. I am finding this very difficult because of the circumstances but end of the day I have to forgive myself and just be at peace at least with the fact that I tried to make things work even in the last two weeks but she had shut down and checked out emotionally and wasn't willing to go back to how things were.  Really hard to take because I really thought this could go somewhere.  

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, ignite said:

but she had shut down and checked out emotionally and wasn't willing to go back to how things were.  Really hard to take because I really thought this could go somewhere.  

But how things were is you having this notion of her on a pedestal of "femininity" - and my sense is the spiritual differences were more about that - she sensed you had this sort of fantasy vision of her that she was uncomfortable with.  She couldn't really be herself.  She sort of liked being regarded as this fragile feminine pure angel but it's not sustainable.  

[yogacat]

On 10/12/2024 at 5:12 PM, ignite said:

When she did reveal in-person when we were spending a nice day together and then we started talking about our pasts.  And crucially, she also built up to it and I could sense anxiety and tension within her as she was about to say what it was.  In my mind I was like, I’ll accept whatever it was as I did really like her. When she mentioned it was herpes, obviously I was taken back but was gentle and tried to be understanding. She said it’s fine if that changes things, she’ll understand and also whether I now see her differently… And guess what happened, those two things did happen in the next coming days. Almost like a self fulfilling prophecy as I guess those two things did happen - I did see her differently and things did change. 

And yes like I admitted earlier, my image of her as this super feminine, traditional woman was kind of shattered.

In 2-3 weeks after she told me I think she may have expected me to actually express my feelings about it or provide some kind of “update” on my “progress.”  Because I didn’t, she took that to mean I wasn’t happy and was struggling with the whole issue. And eventually she went a step further I guess, and thought I may never get over it and so shut down her feelings and checked out.  I just wish she had raised her concerns before she did this, not when it was basically too late.

What is it about it for you to see someone as traditional, feminine and feeling betrayed when that breaks?

I know some of it can be rooted in religion, for sure.

First of all, I want to say that I am not an expert on this topic and I'm just sharing my personal thoughts and experiences and please forgive me if I get a bit too thorny and preachy :P.

For most perspective women, we seek romance, love, variety in our life, community, acceptance, and it's surprising to know how much we miss these qualities or crave them in our partners if those things aren't present.

Society has always had certain expectations of how men and women should behave and present themselves, it's reinforced through many forms of influence. Say, women are often expected to be nurturing, caring, and feminine, while men are expected to be strong, stoic, and masculine. 

In the case of dating someone with herpes, maybe you viewed it as having been "promiscuous" or "dirty."

Like has been mentioned in this thread already, we all have our dealbreakers so you're not wrong for having yours, but I find sometimes it's helpful to question where these dealbreakers come from and if they are rooted in societal expectations rather than personal beliefs.

One of my dealbreakers, (just using this as a similar example) is dating someone that has been with prostitutes, for example, because I feel that a.) prostitution exploits vulnerable individuals, b.) it promotes the objectification of women but then I am okay with men (or myself) watching adult films or listening to certain music which then makes me hypocritical and judgmental.

So these are things I continue to challenge and work on within myself. I also dislike it because it would make me feel less special in a sense or that I wouldn't measure up to the "standard" that these prostitutes had set, and again, that goes back to societal expectations and beliefs about gender and worth.

Not trying to change your view but I'm suggesting that it's challenging to look at someone with rose-tinted glasses with idealized images in your mind of who you thought they are/were or should be. 

I don't know if that makes sense but just wanted to share my thoughts. If you become aware of it then you can challenge it (not saying you should totally stick with someone because of herpes but you can still continue dating and living). 

If you can look at those images you have of who you thought she was/wasn't and in some ways like her better, or decide to ask yourself "is that really who I want to be with," and instead choose yourself and other qualities over her.... then you can move forward and be at peace with the outcome. 

To play devil's advocate...if her reasons for committing to you were due to her upbringing and you felt uncomfortable about it for whatever reason given her diagnosis (maybe your parents having raised you with traditional parameters or what not), you may consider in fact that she was seeking the same despite your discomfort.

This isn't an easy issue to deal with and I imagine it must be hurtful. 

The takeaway is, understand that punishing yourself won't get you to your goals. Instead of self-flagellating, work to learn about who you truly want to be as a person, in the context of your own values including limiting beliefs and fears, know thyself, and work to become that guy.

[ignite]

@yogacat thanks for the comments. 

Just wondering, how would bring up that dealbreaker, would you simply ask them directly, have you been with prostitutes in the past?  Of course you would have no way of knowing for sure I guess if they had?

Quote

I find sometimes it's helpful to question where these dealbreakers come from and if they are rooted in societal expectations rather than personal beliefs.

I think a bit of both but in my case, most likely personal beliefs that I've held for years with my Christian faith as well as the traditional upbringing that I've had.  Alongside that the strong belief that fornication is a sin and waiting for marriage was the right thing to do.  

Quote

If you can look at those images you have of who you thought she was/wasn't and in some ways like her better, or decide to ask yourself "is that really who I want to be with," and instead choose yourself and other qualities over her.... then you can move forward and be at peace with the outcome. 

This right here is EXACTLY what I was trying to do in that period after she told me about the herpes.  In those few weeks, I was trying to look past it and focus on everything that I liked about her. So over time from getting to know her more and more, the love I have for her will truly overcome everything else.  I'll admit as the other posters have pointed out, I did struggle and that's because of my traditional, deep rooted ideas about how women should be pure and innocent etc. especially if they are and act a certain way, e.g. being very feminine as one example. I understand that this is wrong and it is about who they are now in the present moment and what they are working towards rather than who they were in the past.  As Christians who preach forgiveness and the fact that God has forgiven peoples' pasts and made them into transformed people in the present, this should have been the lens I saw every woman I dated - through God's lens but my own hang ups and judgements prevented that.  

At least I have made progress and matured in this area over the years.  There was a time in my 20s when I would be uncomfortable if a woman was simply not a virgin and that would be a dealbreaker.  Reminds me of the story that @Batya33 mentioned earlier in the thread about her friend when she found out her friend had sex with a mutual friend they knew. 

That's why with this girl I knew she had a significant past and I told myself I was going to be fine with it and I was..right up until the STD of course. 

Next time I will be ready at least if I meet another girl who is in a similar situation. 

[ignite]

One final thing because I think it's time that I stopped posting - you've all given me excellent insight, probably not helpful to keep going over the various scenarios and you've given alot of your time to this, which I do appreciate.  But I have one more and then I'll shut up...

I've been thinking about Friday itself whether I essentially instigated the break up, unintentionally. 

This is because she actually had no intention to even talk about us and just wanted to hang out and see "how things go because things could be different in-person." We did hang out, talked about other stuff other than "us" for quite some time as we had some food, coffee. At various points, I asked what do you want to do, do you want to call it a day?  She didn't resist my physical advances (didn't kiss) but each time she said I don’t know. When it came to say goodbye and I asked her what do you want to do...she finally said I don’t think it’s right to continue, I’m sorry.  Tell me if I’m overthinking here but perhaps I still had a chance here and blew it by pressuring her. 

But then I suppose if she really wanted things to work she would have still given me a chance even at the end.  Plus at the start of the meeting when we met, I brought all this up and she re-iterated where she stood and then again few hours later when we were walking around and chatting and asked her if she wanted to still meet the next day.  I think it was a losing battle regardless. How long was this going to go on for?  I couldn't be in limbo for too much longer which is why I kept asking for clarity of where we stood.  I think that's fair.  

Was she testing me in a way to find out how patient I could be and carry on hanging out like this and perhaps hoping that we could re-connect that way.  But with her still being cold, disconnected and distant and saying this wasn't fair on me, it pushed me away and would have made it impossible to reconnect any way. 

[yogacat]

38 minutes ago, ignite said:

Just wondering, how would bring up that dealbreaker, would you simply ask them directly, have you been with prostitutes in the past?  Of course you would have no way of knowing for sure I guess if they had?

Excellent question. I think if I learned early on it would be a dealbreaker for me but if I was deep into the relationship before learning it, I might be a bit stunned, and have a discussion. I do believe people can change and grow in their positions and attitudes on subjects but something like this would take a while to get past.

But if I was so deeply in love and committed, I might actually be willing to try to see if we could work through it. That's how I would bring it up probably. "Let's talk about this. It's really difficult for me to process."

38 minutes ago, ignite said:

At least I have made progress and matured in this area over the years.  There was a time in my 20s when I would be uncomfortable if a woman was simply not a virgin and that would be a dealbreaker.  Reminds me of the story that @Batya33 mentioned earlier in the thread about her friend when she found out her friend had sex with a mutual friend they knew. 

That's why with this girl I knew she had a significant past and I told myself I was going to be fine with it and I was..right up until the STD of course. 

Next time I will be ready at least if I meet another girl who is in a similar situation. 

Right. You'll either be dead set against moving forward if someone discloses something similar and you'll bow out early or, you'll recall how you lost someone that you cared about very deeply and so it won't be as much of a dealbreaker because it's happened before and the fear of the unknown won't be as intense.