The herpes stigma

[ignite]

7 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Do you really think she's settling for you because she's been "rejected" because of the herpes diagnosis? My husband is short and as you know many men get "rejected" because they are short but I prefer shorter men and -never occurred to me he was settling  - he loves me -it's clear as day and was over the moon during the honeymoon "stage" and I didn't settle for him because of my big flaw - a deafeningly loud biological clock which he was ok with!

I'm not saying she is, only she can truly answer that. Obviously I hope she is not. But I think it is a relevant thought.

No one asks for a STD and for those who even had a temporary one which was curable would not live through it again, let alone one that is forever. 

Having to date people knowing that at some point you will have to disclose this diagnosis must be really stressful which is exactly what people who date them worry about - that they will contract it and then be in the same situation that they are in. Now in my case, marriage is for life so we can both live with it and deal with it but what if something happens to your partner and then you are single again...but with a STD. 

Good news though is that I have read many examples of partners who have not contracted it despite being in relationships and marriages with someone who has herpes. So it is possible but obviously there is always a risk. 

[ignite]

I believe taking anti virals every day is common practice within the herpes community and this lady I'm dating was doing that too until she stopped as she wasn't getting any more outbreaks and hasn't for years. If we got married then obviously I want to have unprotected sex at some point so this is what I worry about. The risk is there and that is really what this is about for me. I have to be at peace and not worry. 

I want to believe if it’s meant to be these worries should fade as we grow closer. If we fall in love then this will be a mere inconvenience. It will always be something I will have to deal with, but anxiety about it will fade as I realise she’s worth the effort. 

I touched on the idea of her settling but that same thought I think is relevant for myself as as well. Am I settling? Do I worry about not meeting someone else like her who has these green flags? Truth is yes I do worry. As I did in my OP, it doesn't happen very often at all that I meet a woman like her. What if the next one I do meet has this same issue? Entirely possible given how common herpes is. Or even worse, she has it and doesn't know. Again very possible as alot of people don't realise they have the virus. 

[SophiaG]

45 minutes ago, ignite said:

universally and traditionally defined as when a penis enters a vagina for the first time

Huh? Then gay men would never "lose their virginity" no matter how much sex they have... these definitions make no sense to me.

[Kwothe28]

43 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

these definitions make no sense to me.

I have a friend from college. Anyway, she did everything but vaginal sex with her boyfriends as she saved herself for marriage. She was raised that way that she thought her future husband would “return her home” if she was not a virgin. That is how it was in her village and she thought it would brought shame to her family. Again, I dont think many of you know religious people that much. To me it was clear what OP said about “having sexual experience” when he said it and that it was not sex in a conventional way. 

[Batya33]

5 hours ago, SophiaG said:

Huh? Then gay men would never "lose their virginity" no matter how much sex they have... these definitions make no sense to me.

I was a virgin till age 24 because I did not have intercourse.  That is also how physicians defined it and that is how I explained it in medical situations. I was not virginal and had been sexual prior to that. I didn't have other types of sex in a promiscuous way. I did kiss a lot of boys for sure lol first and second base as they called it  then.

I had planned on waiting til marriage for intercourse and changed my mind after a broken engagement at age 23.  I then became involved with someone else and he was my first. I never claimed to be virginal or "innocent" -for various reasons it was very important to me to wait to have intercourse including emotional, and health (this was in the early 90s so I was in college during the height of AIDS crisis and also I wasn't pro choice for myself so an accidental pregnancy would have meant me becoming a very young and likely single mom.

I don't have any information on how people with same sex partners define virginity.  Or if they use that term in the first place.  For the OP it sounds like there are certain protections you both can take like her ant viral drugs etc.  

[ignite]

How many people within your social circles do you think has genital herpes? Obviously hard to say for sure but it's interesting how it is so much more common than people think. 

[SophiaG]

I don't know anyone who has genital herpes but I would also assume there's no need for someone who has it to tell me if we are doing nothing sexual. I did date someone with cold sores once and there was a slightly uncomfortable moment since I don't have it and didn't want to contract it, but then we decided to not do anything when he has an outbreak and I barely gave it another thought afterwards.

[ignite]

1 minute ago, SophiaG said:

I don't know anyone who has genital herpes but I would also assume there's no need for someone who has it to tell me if we are doing nothing sexual. I did date someone with cold sores once and there was a slightly uncomfortable moment since I don't have it and didn't want to contract it, but then we decided to not do anything when he has an outbreak and I barely gave it another thought afterwards.

Thanks. I guess how would you know for sure I suppose, not something most people would disclose unless you are very close. 

[ignite]

I'm still getting to know her. I want to get to know her. Hoping as I do, as I fall for her over time this condition becomes less of an issue. If it is right. 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, ignite said:

How many people within your social circles do you think has genital herpes? Obviously hard to say for sure but it's interesting how it is so much more common than people think. 

I know one woman.  She is my age and she told me years ago.  She is married for the third time. Happily.

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, ignite said:

How many people within your social circles do you think has genital herpes? Obviously hard to say for sure but it's interesting how it is so much more common than people think. 

I have one friend, she's had it for years. 

She discloses it right up front, even before becoming sexual to make sure they're cool with it. 

For both her protection (emotionally) and his (physically and emotionally).

Some men have not been!  And left.  And she was totally cool with it since there was no emotional investment yet. 

On the other hand, most men were cool with it including her current boyfriend.

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, ignite said:

Thanks. I guess how would you know for sure I suppose, not something most people would disclose unless you are very close. 

I have Bipolar 2 which I have learned to successfully manage barring a few occasional episodes. 

I used to withhold this information until we were well into dating but I don't anymore, why should I?

I'm not embarrassed or ashamed, it's part of who I am, part of my being.  And I am proud of myself for learning how to manage it as well as I do, I didn't always! 

Anyway, if someone is not okay with it, that's fine, that person is not for me, nor am I for them.  Thus far, that has never happened.

Same with Herpes.  If someone is dating you with the expectation of having it one day becoming serious and sexual, it's very much their business and the fair and right thing to do imho..

It's also self-protective as I stated previously in case after they become invested, the person is not okay with it and dumps them. 

 

 

[ignite]

Yes those are encouraging. 

That said bipolar is not the same as having a permanent STD. For one it's not congatious but I understand dealing with it emotionally can be a similar challenge. 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, ignite said:

Yes those are encouraging. 

That said bipolar is not the same as having a permanent STD. For one it's not congatious but I understand dealing with it emotionally can be a similar challenge. 

My father was bipolar.  It is contagious in a way. It also can be physically and financially challenging for the person and the family.  First it's genetic (I don't have any mental health disorder but it is genetic).  It is contagious in the way it can permeate the household environment, the relationship. The added stressors, the anxiousness anticipating a potential episode.  My mom was his hero and she helped him comply with therapy and meds -he did- his choice- he was willing to be hospitalized as needed.  If he hadn't he'd have likely committed suicide.  Instead he had a successful career, had a big heart and did his best being our dad. 

My mom knew as a teenager when he'd been diagnosed -he told her -but back then I am not sure what the specific diagnosis was in the 1950s.  Later it was bipolar.

I think it's important to know yourself and your boundaries.  And of course to recognize stuff happens if you marry -I had a postpartum stroke and fully recovered but what if I hadn't? Our friend got long covid and it turned her and her family's life upside down, still is.  So in advance knowing you can't predict all you balance what you can manage and what you can't.  I knew quite a lot for myself and my list stayed fairly the same even though I didn't marry till age 42 or start dating my now husband (well, second time around) till age 39.

[The Shark101]

On 9/9/2024 at 9:20 AM, ignite said:
about how my image of her being this ultra feminine, innocent, pure woman has been shattered by this revelation.

Late to join the party.
Your problem is not your gf, she is real , it's you: 
You build in your head a fantasy that almost does not exist in reality: there are no Pure, Innocent women. ( Unless you are talking Hamish women ) 
Also, being Feminine has no connection to sexual activity or STD. 

The most faminan women I dated were a tiger 🐅  in the "right moment" ,,,,

You need to deprogram yourself from Hollywood movies.

 

[ShySoul]

On 9/10/2024 at 10:48 PM, ignite said:

I want to believe if it’s meant to be these worries should fade as we grow closer. If we fall in love then this will be a mere inconvenience. It will always be something I will have to deal with, but anxiety about it will fade as I realise she’s worth the effort. 

If it's meant to be, then this will all come true. It will be a part of the relationship, but not the defining part. It will be one of the many minor inconveniences you will face as a couple, but one that you will be able to survive easily because the love between you is stronger.

I don't believe anyone is completely pure. We all sin, right? But that doesn't mean a person can't be mostly pure. That doesn't mean they are any less amazing. It doesn't mean she is any less feminine.

If you read this, hope you and here are still doing well.

[waffle]

13 hours ago, ShySoul said:

I don't believe anyone is completely pure. We all sin, right? But that doesn't mean a person can't be mostly pure. 

What does "mostly pure" mean?  60% pure? 50% pure?  How does one measure that?

[ShySoul]

11 minutes ago, waffle said:

What does "mostly pure" mean?  60% pure? 50% pure?  How does one measure that?

The exact scientific formula is a little complicted and best explained in person, not online. 😁

There's no scale and it's not something that can be measured exactly. I meant that there are levels and everyone falls somewhere on the continuum. Some people do more things that most would consider to be "not pure." Other people will do relatively few things. I've never drank alcohol, done drugs, smoked, had risky sex, cheated, stole, etc. A lot of people would classify be as more pure then people who have done those activities. I've been described as innocent and even told that the innocence is attractive.

To be clear, that doesn't mean anyone is better then anyone else. It's not a judgement upon people. It's simply acknowledging that people have different ranges in their experiences and some people have engaged more (or less) with things that would generally be considered of less (or more) virtuous nature.

It also depends on what the individual is willing to accept. Someone people can look past things a person has done, others can't. Don't think purity is as imporant as how well two people can relate with and understand each other, if they are willing to work together to try and do the best they can going forward.

[ignite]

14 hours ago, ShySoul said:

The exact scientific formula is a little complicted and best explained in person, not online. 😁

There's no scale and it's not something that can be measured exactly. I meant that there are levels and everyone falls somewhere on the continuum. Some people do more things that most would consider to be "not pure." Other people will do relatively few things. I've never drank alcohol, done drugs, smoked, had risky sex, cheated, stole, etc. A lot of people would classify be as more pure then people who have done those activities. I've been described as innocent and even told that the innocence is attractive.

To be clear, that doesn't mean anyone is better then anyone else. It's not a judgement upon people. It's simply acknowledging that people have different ranges in their experiences and some people have engaged more (or less) with things that would generally be considered of less (or more) virtuous nature.

It also depends on what the individual is willing to accept. Someone people can look past things a person has done, others can't. Don't think purity is as imporant as how well two people can relate with and understand each other, if they are willing to work together to try and do the best they can going forward.

Hey Shysoul I sent you a PM. 

[Batya33]

15 hours ago, ShySoul said:

It also depends on what the individual is willing to accept. Someone people can look past things a person has done, others can't. Don't think purity is as imporant as how well two people can relate with and understand each other, if they are willing to work together to try and do the best they can going forward.

It depends on context -what I can look past in a close friendship can differ a lot than what I can look past in a partner or potential partner (hypothetically but referring to years of past dating experience). I chose to stop dating a lovely man who was in recovery from drug and alcohol addiction (sober for over a year/very involved in AA and NA I think) after 4 dates because I realized I couldn't take the risk of relapse (which he was honest with me about!) but had we been close friends I believe I could have been totally fine with it.  I do think there are "some people" who are open in every way to connecting in every way no matter the person's past choices and those people are rare just like people who are closed off to the point of not only choosing to decline a relationship but being heavily judgey in general -are rare.

  Then there are people who suffer from a mental health issue like PTSD so that they choose to avoid the situation rather than risk being triggered.  Definitely not one size fits all. I had many close friends who were very promiscuous and it was fine with me.  I chose not to date men who'd had that lifestyle or made those choices -with a few rare exceptions. I didn't judge them just didn't  date them.

[yogacat]

On 9/23/2024 at 11:48 AM, ShySoul said:

The exact scientific formula is a little complicted and best explained in person, not online. 😁

There's no scale and it's not something that can be measured exactly. I meant that there are levels and everyone falls somewhere on the continuum. Some people do more things that most would consider to be "not pure." Other people will do relatively few things. I've never drank alcohol, done drugs, smoked, had risky sex, cheated, stole, etc. A lot of people would classify be as more pure then people who have done those activities. I've been described as innocent and even told that the innocence is attractive.

To be clear, that doesn't mean anyone is better then anyone else. It's not a judgement upon people. It's simply acknowledging that people have different ranges in their experiences and some people have engaged more (or less) with things that would generally be considered of less (or more) virtuous nature.

It also depends on what the individual is willing to accept. Someone people can look past things a person has done, others can't. Don't think purity is as imporant as how well two people can relate with and understand each other, if they are willing to work together to try and do the best they can going forward.

It's not so much about purity but about things that people wouldn't themselves do or can't understand. I have a hard time wrapping my head around certain acts men engage in but I am sure there are things women do (or, even what I have done) that I'm sure some men would not like to hear about.

Some may look at someone's 100% pure experiences as being too much for them and that they're a square. Others might feel if they are too far down the path they themselves want to try and connect with that person in the way they would like to. I know for me, I like to try and understand the other person's influences. Is person X coming from a good place and can I relate to them? 

That might be oversimplifying but that's how I usually approach things, purity has theoretically had that chance to slide up and down over time - or can be measured over time. 

The concept of "purity" is not a scientific measurement (like you mentioned...) it is a socially constructed concept that can vary from person to person and culture to culture. 

[ShySoul]

On 9/26/2024 at 8:20 PM, yogacat said:

I have a hard time wrapping my head around certain acts men engage in but I am sure there are things women do (or, even what I have done) that I'm sure some men would not like to hear about.

I agree. I have a hard time wrapping my head around most acts men engage in. 😁

On 9/26/2024 at 8:20 PM, yogacat said:

I know for me, I like to try and understand the other person's influences. Is person X coming from a good place and can I relate to them?

Also agree. It's not so much the act that is important as the intent or what the person is going through at the time. I try not to hold anything against a person, just take them for who they are, the good and the bad. If I sense a good person who I relate to, most things won't really matter to me. As long as they are striving to be a good person and aren't harming others, concepts like "purity" don't mean all that much in the scheme of things.

On 9/26/2024 at 8:20 PM, yogacat said:

The concept of "purity" is not a scientific measurement (like you mentioned...) it is a socially constructed concept that can vary from person to person and culture to culture. 

There are a lot of socially constructed concepts out there that varies widely depending on who you are around. Find a lot of them serves more to separate us then unite us. Can be a bit of an iconoclast when it comes to them, striving to focus instead on cutting down artificial constructs and get to the core of what we all feel.

[ignite]

So an update on that original situation with this girl I was dating....

Since that last post I made on here, things went from bad to worse. I was on an overseas trip last month and everything was fine until the last few days when I started to notice her being very cold and distant with her texts. She said she felt disconnected for many reasons.

Ever since she told me about her herpes, she has been looking for signs of acceptance from me and she feels that there was a shift in communication from my end. I wasn't as complimentary and affectionate etc. over text and we didn't call each as often. I admit this is all true, there was a shift on my part because I guess I was still trying to process her having herpes and the long term impact that it could have. I was going through a wave of emotions myself trying to deal with it. She felt something had changed for me and I had taken a step back. 

She did mention she had serious doubts about our spiritual compatibility too and the fact that we could be different in these areas. 

We met and talked it through and the thought of losing her shook me up again and I realise I didn't want to lose her. From that moment I wanted to make this work. 

After that I didn't see her for two weeks but in that time she continued to be distant and cold with me consistently, despite the fact that I made a huge effort to show her that I do want to commit to her and make things work and what I think of her. I sent her chocolates, made an effort to call her, checked in with her, told her how I felt, not every day but enough to make her aware that I was serious about her. But i just wasn't getting anything back from her and her compliments towards me which were daily before, were now non existent. Her texts which were affectionate and long were now cold and short. I sensed the end was coming but in my mind if I saw her in person things could be different. So I held onto some hope. 

Not to be. I travelled to see her today for the first time in two weeks and we ended it today. 

Basically, she's saying she hasn't changed her position, she's still feeling disconnected despite trying to get back to where we were, she just can't.

We barely talked about the herpes because I think she perhaps realised I was over it but instead brought up the compatibility issues, how we aren't similar on certain things etc kind of vague. Now annoyingly she said she didn't plan to have this conversation but just hang out and see how things go today which seems contradictory, because in person things might be different! But then I couldn't pretend that nothing was wrong because clearly that's not the case as she was being so cold and distant the moment we met. 

At one point I just asked her straight out do you want to continue, just be honest and say if you don't want this. She said she wasn't sure and that we can put a pause on things. Basically it seems she just isn't sure. 

However we then went for a walk, had a pizza before I got my train home later in the evening. Those few hours we just chatted and caught up and it was nice I thought. I should have just left but I thought if I hang out with her a bit longer then maybe she can reconnect even in that short time. When it was time to say goodbye, I asked her again, what do you want to do... She said I don't think it's right to continue and that she's sorry. And that was it. We hugged, said goodbye and went our separate ways. So it's definitely the end. I won't be texting her or contacting her again, perhaps a Christmas message later in the year. 

I'm feeling OK for now. It will probably affect me in the coming days I think but the fact that she was so distant in the past two weeks will make it easier in a way. And in a way it turned me off as well. She had checked out and despite trying to feel reconnected, she could not. I know and she said herself I did nothing wrong the entire time we were together. And maybe that's why she was conflicted and unsure herself about ending it. I do think these compatibility issues are valid, sure but I do genuinely think once someone really likes you then surely they will do whatever they can to make things work and try to look past them. It's not as if I said I'm not going to church anymore or I don't rant too read my bible etc. The differences she brought up were important to her though, so what can I do. I believe I did everything I could from treating her as well as I could to deciding to commit to her after that period and showing her my intentions and being patient as I could. But it wasn't enough and ultimately her reactions, the physical distance between us, the advice she was perhaps receiving from friends or whoever were all out of my control. 

My confidence is shatteted now because once again, a dating experience that started so promisingly, someone who I thought was into me, suddenly changed her feelings and not feel the same despite me doing nothing wrong and that hurts. Yet again I have failed to attain a serious, long term relationship, let alone come close to getting married.

It's difficult enough to meet someone who I deeply connect with, find attractive. I have waited years for this. I was extremely down about not meeting someone before her, and then I met her and for a brief moment, there was hope and I dared to finally believe that this could actually work. But it's ended like every other promising situation and now I'm back to where I was. And now I'm going to think with the next girl, I am going to be quite insecure because I fear the same outcome after a promising start. I wish I could just give up sometimes. 

Sorry this is so long and appreciate if you've made it this far. 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

Yes it was a promising start but after her disclosure re having herpes, admittedly, you did change your feelings.

You became ambivalent, uncertain and yes a bit judgey as well imo; you were uncertain if you could ever move past this!  Many of your posts reflect this uncertainty.  Deeming her "unpure" etc if I recall. 

Which is fine I suppose, they are your feelings to which you're entitled.

In any event, SHE obviously sensed all of this and felt judged imo.  I would have too tbh. 

Once SHE became uncertain and pulled back, you began showering her with gifts etc which was the wrong course of action.

In her eyes (and mine as well not that what I think means a hill of beans) it came off disingenuous.  A way to hold her even though obviously the herpes still bothered you at least on some level. It came off phony which made things worse imo.

Anyway what's done is done and I'm sorry things didn't work out as you hoped.

There is no reason to think this will happen again with your next relationship as long as you remain honest within yourself and her and don't try to force a situation that after her disclosure clearly was not a good fit for YOU.

All the best moving forward.

 

[Batya33]

10 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Yes it was a promising start but after her disclosure re having herpes, admittedly, you did change your feelings.

You became ambivalent, uncertain and yes a bit judgey as well imo; you were uncertain if you could ever move past this!  Many of your posts reflect this uncertainty.  Deeming her "unpure" etc if I recall. 

Which is fine I suppose, they are your feelings to which you're entitled.

In any event, SHE obviously sensed all of this and felt judged imo.  I would have too tbh. 

Once SHE became uncertain and pulled back, you began showering her with gifts etc which was the wrong course of action.

In her eyes (and mine as well not that what I think means a hill of beans) it came off disingenuous.  A way to hold her even though obviously the herpes still bothered you at least on some level. It came off phony which made things worse imo.

Anyway what's done is done and I'm sorry things didn't work out as you hoped.

There is no reason to think this will happen again with your next relationship as long as you remain honest within yourself and her and don't try to force a situation that after her disclosure clearly was not a good fit for YOU.

All the best moving forward.

 

I agree with all.  And I'm sorry you are disappointed.  I also agree with why this is unlikely to happen again.  It's a learning experience.