Can men and women have true friendships?

[yogacat]

I went out on one date with this man a couple of years ago.

As our date came to an end, I kindly declined his offer for a second date. I expressed that I valued our connection as friends but felt nada romantically.

Flash forward a couple of years: We hung out a couple of times as friends. We would communicate here and there and be there for each other for certain things.

After a bit, he wanted to clarify if I am still only interested in friends because he wants to ensure he handles his interactions with me appropriately moving forward.

We've met up a few times since. He frequently texts me with random things like invitations to his shows or funny videos.

A month or so ago, I offered to make pizza for him. Even though I've clarified that we're just friends, he's paid for the few times we went out. So, I thought it would be nice to show appreciation.

At the end of the night, he tried to kiss me. And I was 100% surprised. I asked him about it almost immediately, and he said that he still has feelings, but would still rather have me as a friend if that wasn't reciprocal.

I've been distancing myself from him because I was adamant that we're just friends, and he tried to kiss me. Today, he invited me to a show this weekend. I hate not replying, but at the same time, I want to be blunt and say, "I'm uncomfortable hanging out as friends, given the last time you tried to kiss me when I thought we were just friends." 

This made me wonder whether men and women can be "just friends." I have had a male friend since I was eight years old, and no lines were ever crossed on either side. We're like brother and sister! But can that happen later in life? How does one navigate it, or, do you just stop talking to the other person when someone catches feelings for the other?

This guy I am referring to in my post is a GREAT guy; he's just not for me. But now I feel like maybe he crossed the line when he tried to kiss me after I implicitly stated I wasn't interested in him that way.

I wish we could just move on from this and be cool, but I suppose that's wishful thinking.

[Batya33]

In my world and my husband's absolutely yes and I am so glad this is my reality -I have had male platonic friends for over 40 years and hope always to.  I don't generalize about men but I like diversity in my friendships and for sure certain of my male friends are quite different from my female friends.  Makes it interesting! I have stayed friends with certain exes and one of my closest friends was someone who asked me out shortly after we met in grad school in the early 90s and I said no and that was the end of it.  Another friend I sort of asked out then realized we couldn't ever date because of a dealbreaker issue and then became friends -never really flirted and never were physical ever.  We lost touch some years ago but were friends for about 7 years maybe?

But for example I met a man years ago when our kids played together at a play place.  His mom was there too and had just moved here.  Wife was home and ill.  We hit it off as did our kids. I think he gave me his linkedin name but I couldn't find him -did find him on FB.  But - I knew it might give the wrong impression to his wife so i found his wife on FB, messaged her and told her our kids met and wanted to meet again - so now I am decently good friends with her on and off and I decided not to pursue a friendship with her husband because he is married and I never wanted to give a wrong impression. I have more in common with him.  I did speak with him at his son't bday party and at get togethers but the only time I texted him individually may have been to confirm when we were coming over to their house. 

I did the same with another man I met in the same way except in that case we did text some - mostly related to the kids but also about fun stuff -I met his wife finally at his son's bday party.  We never really hit it off and there was no issue with my being friendly with her husband.  But again I kept my distance-any texts wrere completely fine for anyone to see. So in those ways I am not sure men and women can be friends as easily as women and women because of those "appearances of impropriety" risk.

[Tinydance]

I think yes men and women can be friends but only in those cases where both people don't find the other person attractive. I actually was thinking before I finished reading your post that boys and girls can be friends when they're kids because they don't necessarily "see" gender and don't view other kids as a potential relationship. Then you said you have a good male friend since eight years old and that confirmed what I was thinking. 

Also I think the environment you met the person does matter. You met this guy and went on a date with him. I'm not sure if you met him on online dating or somewhere else. In any case, he was attracted to you from the start and that's why he went on a date with you. So he started off thinking of you as a potential partner. It's different if for example you meet a male colleague at work and you're interacting because you work together. 

The other thing I've found is that many men actually don't really want to have female friends. Like, they have male friends and they see women as a sexual and/or romantic interest. I'm bisexual/pansexual so I've dated all genders. I basically always found after dates with guys, if they weren't interested, they'd never contact me again. Whereas some women I went on dates with would say they were happy to stay friends and keep in touch. Which is what you did towards that guy but obviously he DIDN'T actually just want to be friends.

To be honest I don't think you can probably continue to be "friends" with this guy at all. Even if he doesn't kiss you again, you know he's interested in you. So continuing to hang out with him would be leading him on. And you also gotta remember that some people have that mindset that someone of opposite gender wouldn't spend time with them unless they liked them. So this guy obviously thought you were hanging out with him because you did like him in some way. There are also different interpretations of being friends. Some people see it as the person saying: "I'm not ready for a relationship right now but I could be open to it in future."

[ShySoul]

I'm great friends with someone I was, and still am, attracted to. This came about when we were both adults. However circumstances saw that we could not be together. She has always been aware of my feelings but has made clear that it's friendship. As having that friendship means the world to me, I don't try to force anything. Should circumstances ever change, I would be more then open for more. But even if it never does, just having her as a friend is enough. 

Think it comes down to being able to control your emotions and honestly communicating your feelings with each other. The one who has feelings realistically won't be able to just stop having them. They can carry that torch for a long time. The person not reciprocating needs to instead that it may be difficult on the other and be aware of signs that the other person is having difficulty regulating himself. They should also be careful not to do things that could be interpreted as "leading them on."

On the other side, the person with the feelings needs to be able to separate an contain them. They need to respect the other person's wishes and not try to pursue anything more. No thinking that doing certain things can win them over. No flirting that could make someone uncomfortable. And no going for a kiss! Accept that no means no and enjoy the friendship that you do have.

And most of all, communicate what you are feeling and take responsibility for it. If your feelings are too strong and you think you will act on them, communicate this and take a step back so no one gets hurt.

Yogacat, this guy did cross a line. If I'm being generous I'll say he got caught up in a moment and just acted. But it still was wrong and stupid of him. You have every right to feel uncomfortable. If you don't feel comfortable around him yet, don't be around him. If you still want to be friends, spell out that nothing like that can ever happen again. 

And if you make pizza again, make it for youself. 😋

[ShySoul]

25 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

The other thing I've found is that many men actually don't really want to have female friends. Like, they have male friends and they see women as a sexual and/or romantic interest.

I'll never understand men like that. I've always had more female friends and get along better with them, usually without anything romantic going on. Finding real friends can be hard enough. If you find someone you get along well with, why should it matter what gender they are?

[Tinydance]

15 minutes ago, ShySoul said:

I'll never understand men like that. I've always had more female friends and get along better with them, usually without anything romantic going on. Finding real friends can be hard enough. If you find someone you get along well with, why should it matter what gender they are?

Oh I actually agree with you! I have male friends too. Some I've known for like 20 years. When I was a kid I actually got along much better with boys. I found some girls at school to be very catty and scheming. But the boys were just "what you see is what you get." I was definitely one of the guys. But there are people that have only same gender friends and that's just what they prefer. 

I have one male friend who only has male friends and any females he was friends with, he actually hooked up with them. And I noticed he made very little effort towards our friendship but he bent over backwards for women he had a crush on. So he really seemed to only see women as romantic interests, or nothing.

[ShySoul]

4 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Oh I actually agree with you! I have male friends too. Some I've known for like 20 years. When I was a kid I actually got along much better with boys. I found some girls at school to be very catty and scheming. But the boys were just "what you see is what you get." I was definitely one of the guys. But there are people that have only same gender friends and that's just what they prefer. 

I have one male friend who only has male friends and any females he was friends with, he actually hooked up with them. And I noticed he made very little effort towards our friendship but he bent over backwards for women he had a crush on. So he really seemed to only see women as romantic interests, or nothing.

Agreed.

The woman I mentioned is like that as well. She's found women to be catty and scheming while the men are more laid back. Interesting how are personal interactions and experiences shape our opinions on entire groups like that.

There are all kinds of people with all kinds of values and beliefs. Think you just need to find the ones that match you. I hope the ones who only want to be friends with one gender are happy with their choice. Personally, I wouldn't want to miss out on all the potentially great friendships.

And sometimes knowing more women can be an advantage. Even if they aren't interested, they have friends. 😉 (just kidding on that, mostly lol)

[shouldhavelearned]

It's possible 

Depends on the balance of your significant other.

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, Tinydance said:

hink yes men and women can be friends but only in those cases where both people don't find the other person attractive

I think they can find the person attractive.  It cannot be to the extent where they fight the temptation to act on the attraction.  I am not a fan of women wanting to be platonic friends with men because of negative generalizations of women as "catty" or generalizations about men as having traditional masculine qualities.  I am friends with individuals and sometimes the gender matters a lot if I'm discussing mom related or female related issues -yes, sometimes dads don't get it especially if it's the more traditional set up with dad working full time and mom at home and/or part time so doing more of the child care.  

[Kwothe28]

12 hours ago, yogacat said:

I have had a male friend since I was eight years old, and no lines were ever crossed on either side. We're like brother and sister! But can that happen later in life?

I guess? If there is no romantic attraction between two parties, yes. I dont see why it would not be possible. 

Not everybody would be interested in romantic relationship with you. So you cant assume friendships between opposite sexes are not real and that it would always be romantic tension. But you just happen to walk into one who does have that toward you. Even though you dont seem to want him in that way. So its really not possible to be friends at least for now.

12 hours ago, yogacat said:

How does one navigate it, or, do you just stop talking to the other person when someone catches feelings for the other?

For now, you really need to put distance. Its clear he wont stop trying. So you would need to just not hang out with him for now. Or forever if he persists with his romantic advances. Say that you are not comfortable with it and that you cant hang out with somebody who has feelings toward you because it wouldnt be fair to him nore you to hang as friends anymore. Maybe somewhere down the line you can truly be friends. But not when he has feelings for you. 

[TeeDee]

Yes, men & woman can be "just friends" but not with the origin you describe.  

It only works when it was only platonic from the outset, which this wasn't.  

[yogacat]

12 hours ago, Tinydance said:

To be honest I don't think you can probably continue to be "friends" with this guy at all. Even if he doesn't kiss you again, you know he's interested in you. So continuing to hang out with him would be leading him on. And you also gotta remember that some people have that mindset that someone of opposite gender wouldn't spend time with them unless they liked them. So this guy obviously thought you were hanging out with him because you did like him in some way. There are also different interpretations of being friends. Some people see it as the person saying: "I'm not ready for a relationship right now but I could be open to it in future."

I've distanced myself for the reasons you mentioned. He's invited me to a few things and has sent me messages. And just to clarify, we did have a conversation before the kissing attempt that I do not view our relationship in a romantic light, only platonic. He said he was OK with remaining platonic friends.

I felt after two years, things would have settled feelings-wise on his end. As @ShySoulmentioned, him trying to kiss me I felt crossed a line. Especially when we had the conversation beforehand this wasn't romantic. He said he was okay with just being platonic friends.

I suppose my best male friend from when I was 8 is different because there was never that attraction there from either side and we managed to remain platonic friends our entire lives.

I was hoping a genuine friendship could develop but that feels unlikely. It's unfortunate because I do enjoy his company and care for him as a person and we have a lot in common.

I think this situation highlights for me the delicate dynamics of trying to be "just friends" with someone you previously went on ONE date with. As much as I would like to believe that men and women can have platonic friendships without any complications, sometimes feelings and intentions can get in the way.

I've heard of people dating, and then both decide no romantic feelings, and they continue to be friends, but that's not the case here and I just wish we could have both agreed to keep things platonic and moved on as friends.

[Coily]

It's really dependent on the individuals involved.

I have two female friends that I was romantically and intensely sexually engaged with; in both cases we independently arrived that it wasn't really a relationship that would work. With both we're still fast friends after 10 and 15 years respectively.

In another case she and I were always only friends, we even hang out and even travel to events just she and I. Her husband doesn't care, as the boundaries were always firm.

However in another case a lady I dated, pulled the ol' "Let's just be friends"  crap. I wanted to have nothing to do with her if I couldn't date her. There was a level of seeing in her what I adore in a woman that I would like to spend my life with. It would have been pure hell seeing her date someone else.

In your case Yoga, you just need to go your separate ways. He sees something in you that he will always yearn for. Keeping him as a friend will hold him back and keep you on edge.

[Cherylyn]

I think it's possible to have male / female friends.  As for your guy friend,  it sounds like it wouldn't work out because he crossed the line by trying to kiss you.  He doesn't think of you as his friend.  He wants more.  It would be uncomfortable and awkward to resume friendship with this guy.  Perhaps it's time to pump the brakes on the friendship,  drift apart and fade away or have a talk about going your separate ways.

I support what other people do wholeheartedly.  However, having male / female friendships aren't for everyone.  My husband and I do not meet regularly with opposite gender friends nor confide in them.  It's simply not our way.  I have nothing against what other people do.  It's simply not what we do. 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, TeeDee said:

Yes, men & woman can be "just friends" but not with the origin you describe.  

It only works when it was only platonic from the outset, which this wasn't.  

I am platonic friends with men I dated.  For me personally it can work just fine.

[AnimeFanDude]

I do not think it's possible. If only because I think natural instincts are going to outweigh logic.

[redswim30]

It's completely possible!!!  I have many platonic male friends that always were and always will be just friends.  Some of my best friends are men.   Their wives and girlfriends have been grateful to me for giving them advice on presents to buy them, places to take them and even sometimes to tell them " Stop being toxic and apologize to your SO!"

It's so funny to me that people still think about opposite gender as if they are the only gender that could be attracted to you or have crushes on you.  Females can have female friends that are attracted to you as males can have male friends that are attracted to them.  Being same gendered also never completely means there is no romantic attraction there on one side. 

CAVEAT- if one person is extremely interested romantically and another isn't, then you can't really be friends if they cannot accept that.   If they CAN accept and don't try anything and respect your boundaries, then sure, why not?  BUT, in this instance he is lying to you about being okay with being friends and will always want something more. 

I think you can be friends with him- esp if you still want this otherwise great person in your life- but you have to draw the line and say " Look, I stand firm in my decision.  I can only be friends with you if you can accept that I only view you as friend and that will not change.  If you can fully accept that and never attempt to cross that line again, then great.  But if you cannot, and it happens again, then we can no longer be friends. 

As Coily said, it really depends on the people involved.  It is always "possible" just not always "practical" depending on the two people.  

 

[ShySoul]

6 hours ago, AnimeFanDude said:

I do not think it's possible. If only because I think natural instincts are going to outweigh logic.

What if the natural instinct was to be friends with them in the first place? I didn't go into things wanting more, I just wanted to be friends. Feelings developed later. So both instinct and logic said be friends.

[ShySoul]

11 hours ago, yogacat said:

I've heard of people dating, and then both decide no romantic feelings, and they continue to be friends, but that's not the case here and I just wish we could have both agreed to keep things platonic and moved on as friends.

Unfortunately some people can't control their emotions as well as others. Any friendship/relationship is a risk as you can never fully predict how the other side will take things. I actually think most people can keep things in check. But sometimes it doesn't want work out.

You did everything right and everything you could to be friends. But friendship goes both ways. If you can't accept your boundaries, he wasn't being a true, respectful friend. He may have been wonderful in every other way, but he wasn't mature enough to hold himself back. Sometimes that's just how life goes.

 

[Batya33]

8 hours ago, ShySoul said:

What if the natural instinct was to be friends with them in the first place? I didn't go into things wanting more, I just wanted to be friends. Feelings developed later. So both instinct and logic said be friends.

I've had  that happen. In one case we ended up dating for five months and then the friendship was over and had to be for many reasons -including that he met his wife a couple of months later and because my goal was to find the right person to marry -being friends with an ex in that situation wasn't going to help that goal and likely would hurt it.  I think if feelings develop that are strong enough to make it hard to resist temptation the friendship likely will suffer even if both are single because friends often chat about who they are dating and wish to date and for me personally it would be too hard to listen to that.

[ShySoul]

19 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I think if feelings develop that are strong enough to make it hard to resist temptation the friendship likely will suffer even if both are single because friends often chat about who they are dating and wish to date and for me personally it would be too hard to listen to that.

That's an individual choice. For you it would be too hard. For me, assuming the person was being polite and considerate in how they talk about the topic, I wouldn't care. Clearly if they say it in a mean way, then they aren't being a friend to begin with. But if they are nice about it, then I'll be happy for them.

If I care that deeply for someone that I want to be with them, then my top concern is their happiness and well being. I want what is best for them, even if it is not me. If they find that happiness, I will celebrate it for them. The part of me that is happy for them outweighs that part that is sad it wasn't me.

[Batya33]

5 hours ago, ShySoul said:

That's an individual choice. For you it would be too hard. For me, assuming the person was being polite and considerate in how they talk about the topic, I wouldn't care. Clearly if they say it in a mean way, then they aren't being a friend to begin with. But if they are nice about it, then I'll be happy for them.

If I care that deeply for someone that I want to be with them, then my top concern is their happiness and well being. I want what is best for them, even if it is not me. If they find that happiness, I will celebrate it for them. The part of me that is happy for them outweighs that part that is sad it wasn't me.

My top concern is my well being. So in a friendship I balance it that way. I can care deeply and create distance -choose not to be a close friend with someone I want to date badly -I've done it and it worked ok since he never knew how I felt.  I'm honest with myself.  I didn't make myself celebrate someone else's happiness in finding out she was pregnant when my clock was ticking loudly and I was unhappily single and childless. 

Be there and be supportive -yes of course no question.  But no I'm not going to subject myself to this guilt inducing "if you really cared for her deeply you'd be celebrating that she is pregnant and it's all you want in the world" Yes even though her being pregnant didn't mean anything about my capacity to be pregnant - I'm human.  I was jealous and for the good of the friendship I was supportive -but celebrate -no and thankfully my friend didn't expect that. I never ever expected my unhappily childless friends especially those struggling with infertility to celebrate that I was finally pregnant.  

For me it's outweighed too because I remain their friend and supportive -I don't ditch someone because they have what I want. But I knew when I was single I couldn't be a true friend to a man I wanted to date badly who chose someone else and was all gushy as he should be- that's not mean, it;s normal. As was my reaction in creating distance IMO.

[ShySoul]

4 hours ago, Batya33 said:

My top concern is my well being. So in a friendship I balance it that way. I can care deeply and create distance -choose not to be a close friend with someone I want to date badly -I've done it and it worked ok since he never knew how I felt.  I'm honest with myself.  I didn't make myself celebrate someone else's happiness in finding out she was pregnant when my clock was ticking loudly and I was unhappily single and childless. 

Be there and be supportive -yes of course no question.  But no I'm not going to subject myself to this guilt inducing "if you really cared for her deeply you'd be celebrating that she is pregnant and it's all you want in the world"

What is good for my well being is seeing other people happy. I don't see life in terms of myself. I see an interconnectedness, a shared universal conscience. It's not a zero sum game where one person finding someone means you've lost out. A rising tide raises all ships. One person's happiness should be able to enrich everyone. And that is being honest with myself.

I'm not making myself celebrate anything. It is genuinely how I feel. When you love someone completely, purely and unselfishly, you want them to be happy. It's nice if they love you back, but it's not necessary. You love them for who they are with no expectations. And you celebrate them because you want to celebrate them. You don't have to make yourself do anything. It comes natural because that is what you feel in her heart and soul.

Why would a person feel guilt for being happy about someone having something good happen in their life? You were the one talking about how wonderful being pregnant is, and how amazing it feels to have love and sex with someone you really care about. If it is that amazing, shouldn't we be happy for those that experience it? Shouldn't we want other people to find that? So why look at things in terms of guilt and sorrow instead of seeing things in terms of love and joy?

"Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance."

[Batya33]

Just now, ShySoul said:

It's not a zero sum game where one person finding someone means you've lost out. A rising tide raises all ships. One person's happiness should be able to enrich everyone. And that is being honest with myself.

We agree.  And I feel what I feel.  I did not feel enriched by my friend getting pregnant or my crush meeting another woman.  I don't think my happiness should enrich anyone unless I am happy based on helping someone else.  I downplayed my marriage and pregnancy to those good friends who might feel badly about their own situations - I would never assume they'd feel enriched by my good fortune.  I would never ever have mentioned to that friend how amazing it was or how wonderful and then puzzled "what? what I said doesn't enrich you? you're not celebrating my pregnancy because you had another failed IVF treatment?? Wow you don't care about my happiness."  As a friend I was selective in how I expressed my good fortune and my happiness.  If I had a crush and he didn't know obviously he might gush over a new woman in his life.  I would have felt happy for him that he found a person he likes AND I would have known I couldn't stomach hearing about the details. 

So I'd have likely distanced myself. With men who knew I was interested or still interested I knew I would never feel like outright celebrating if they met someone they fell for despite wishing them well in their new relationship and I would hope that man would never assume he could gush because I should feel "enriched" by his happiness.

I respect your perspective.  I feel I show love and care for my friends, family, husband and son.  And vice versa.  I couldn't be friends with someone who would expect me to feel enriched by their happiness in a situation where I was struggling or wanted the same thing and was feeling badly about it.  I think unconditional love is rare.  I expect in my close relationships reciprocity in terms of respect and kindness and thoughtfulness. I might still feel love for a person who doesn't reciprocate but I'm not going to hang out with them much if at all.

[Jaunty]

YES.  Real, deep, enriching lifetime friendships can and do happen between men and women.  

It depends on the people and what happens between them.

Friendship is something that needs some nurturing like a seed for it to grow into anything.

This is why I have a bit of a private eye roll when people meet on a blind date or OLD and it doesn't click but they decide that they will "be friends."   

I contend that very rarely will these people have enough mutual interest in each other to actually develop a real friendship.   It can and does happen but I think that some fortuitous circumstances generally need to be in place.   

It did happen for me, thanks to circumstances:  We had both relocated to a new city and met via a personal ad (prehistoric beings here).  We were not going to connect romantically or sexually for sure but we really hit it off with the banter, sense of humor, like the same music, art, wanted to explore similar things in our new home.

So for us, the circumstances really played into our friendship taking root and lasting many many years - still to this day.

Other opposite sex friendships have grown because of knowing someone in life, like at school, work, hobby, or a social friend group, and it just organically develops.  That's more common and makes sense because the people involved actually know each other.