Is it partially a partner’s responsibility to interpret correctly what is said?

[redswim30]

On 8/25/2024 at 1:30 AM, NighttimeNightmare said:

 

So back to the main question: if a partner is hurt by my words, is it at least in part their responsibility to understand that I “didn’t mean it that way?”   I understand telling someone who is hurt that I “didn’t mean it that way” isn’t helpful, but conceptually I wonder if the onus is completely on the Speaker, or if it’s shared. 

ie: if my partner is hurt because of a misunderstanding, and I explain that how they interpreted what I said wasn’t at all what I was trying to express, and therefore they shouldn’t really be hurt by it… is it wrong to expect the partner to learn how to approximate and be able to say “I’m kind of hurt but I know that isn’t what he meant so I won’t take it that way”

 

thoughts? 

It's hard to give sound advice without knowing exactly what was said- 

I think it can be either party's fault, depending on the situation.  There's times when someone is overlaying an intention that isn't there.  There's other times when one should be aware of their partner's triggers or how something could be offensive.  

Some general examples- 

If a male were to say to a female, " Oh, my friend has lost a lot of weight and looks younger."  - If the woman got really offended, that is likely their own overreaction or "overlay" onto something that was meant as a casual comment. 

On the other hand, if the comment was  'Don't you wish you looked that young and in shape?" That could be perceived as an insult and the speaker should consider this. 

On both sides, context is important.   

I do think people should also try to be open with their partner and communication.  We all misspeak at times, context is important and should always be considered and partner's should be open to apology. 

If you provide detailed context, I can give a more detailed response. 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

37 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

So when a human does this, we also experience the equivalent of machine learning PLUS the benefits of emotion--to whatever degree we are capable of being tapped there. So the reward might generate, say, a +8 on a 10 point scale for an empathetic learner, while the same reward might register only a +5 or +6 for someone who lacks empathy--but it's still a reward, it's still a desired outcome, AND the new steps themselves can create the synapses that produce desired emotions

This is 100000% spot on and I absolutely love your couple of posts that describe it this way. 
 

I always pictured my experience as if we are all robots and I lacked all of the necessary presets to start my journey, while others came stock with them. Along the way (via therapy with a trained professional), I was given a “kindness” preset. Empathy? No. No preset for that. But a kindness preset allowed me to, as you say, generate rewards. 
 

I used to be someone who loved to mess with people to get a reaction. Negative ones. It was funny to me.  Con artist stuff felt amazing. Like elusive “crimes”….getting away with things and leaving people confused… let me be clear - I’m not and never was a criminal. I’m just talking small scale stuff. But it gave my brain a puzzle to solve. And I had no idea I was hurting anyone. Why? I didn’t feel. If I don’t feel, I don’t believe others do.  It was all a game. But load me with a kindness preset… my choices changed. Not necessarily the behavior, but the choices 

meaning: I still wanted to get high off of altering peoples perceptions and being elusive, but once I logically understood y = harm = bad. I was able to change that to x = positive = good and my robotic self was able to play by that rule and instead alter their perceptions positively, which became rewarding.  Example: maybe I’d anonymously pay for someone’s food. They had no idea who did it… it was elusive … it gave me my high, but I wasn’t harming them.  I realized I could be ME without harming others. 
 

as time went on, and as I learned to dismantle my walls in therapy, I began to experience pain. The feeling of my own personal pains + the kindness starter pack = learned empathy.  It was only after I allowed myself to feel pain, that I realized that the understanding/experience of pain was the motivation for the kindness many offer to others  

 

but during this process, while I was “faking it” I found I met a different type of person. I found that these people were naturally kind, and helpful, and good people.  They weren’t concerned with winning or losing, seeing life as that black and white. I started to form more genuine connections where I was actually seeing people for who they were. New lenses.  
 

eventually everything changed for me. I wanted secure and healthy connections. I wanted to create them, I wasn’t faking it. It wasn’t protocol anymore. It was natural. It felt better to be collaborative than self-serving. It felt genuine and real.  You know.. to consider someone and try to make sure they didn’t feel the pain i had now felt and experienced 

I don’t lack empathy now.  If I’m doing something harmful to someone I care about… I’ve realized I lack that particular preset and that there’s probably an empathy patch hidden behind some walls. This case, it’s a language and communication preset. But it’s also my responsibility to tap into my empathy

[Jaunty]

2 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Out of curiosity, do you remember off hand what you read that gave the impression I wanted someone to change? 

I can't - I was trying to find what I read and haven't, but maybe I will look through this thread again later when I have more time.  It was something to the effect that you felt like you had to speak loudly if you needed someone to listen or to change.   But, maybe it was not you who wrote that and / or it was a different thread.  Does it ring any bells for you?

2 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

 

 

Not being snarky, as you can’t hear my tone. I’m just curious because I’m wondering what I’m doing or saying that could be perceived like that.

Not taken that way.  

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, catfeeder said:

Keep going, NN! Allow this likely temporary setback to teach you what it can, and also allow for the fact that GF is learning from this, too. She may be able to overcome her initial upset to consider the longer range and the bigger picture. Head high.

I appreciate the kind words and encouragement. I definitely want to gain the skillset to be a better communicator, for myself, and for the safety of those who do get close to me in the future 

as for this situation… if she does circle back then she will notice a change. If not her, I’ll have greater success in my future 

as for her… I know only she knows what she feels and she’s not on here to explain. But I wonder what some outside perspective is regarding that side of things. Like, when we were having “debates” about more logical things that weren’t hurtful to her or myself.. she would always tell me she’s not gonna let me do this (insist I’m right) and she’d stand her ground. Which I respected.  Then we’d come to an understanding and she was always saying “I’m just so glad we can solve these things and have these conversations” … 

when we went on our trip together, which wasn’t that long ago… she told me how much she loves being with me, is so glad we did this, how she can’t think of anyone else she’d want to do this with, etc etc. and she goes “you know, I think one of the reasons we get along so well is we can put up with each others stuff”.. and she said she knows she can be a bit difficult as well

I just remember sitting there thinking how happy I was to naturally get to this point with her and how safe everything always felt with her. 
 

and now …. Nada.  It was like she did a 180. Personally I kind of suspect because we got even closer on that trip, my lack of empathy hurt even more and she had to back away for her own health 

thing is.. after she sent that “we need a break” email, she reached out a couple times after that asking me questions about something. Which I found kind of odd and also why I eventually asked her to clarify the word “BREAK”

Few weeks after that I sent the apology email and she txtd me and said she’s been unwell but didn’t want me to think she wasn’t going to respond and to please allow her time

but since then, she’s responded in a group chat we are both part of. Specifically: I run a monthly event and I had sent out the details for that month to the group and she responded saying “I wish I could be there. I’m still feeling unwell. I hope everyone has fun” sort of a thing 

 

It kind of confuses me because she’s still “present” in some ways. And I know before she cut me out she was on edge a lot and I felt she was sort of taking it out on me. 
 

I don’t know her to be a deceptive or indirect person, but it kind of feels like maybe she’s saying “I won’t talk to you privately but we can be friends in a group setting!” But that also feels out of character for her.  Inkind of wonder if she’s getting herself in check before communicating with me again. It would be very hurtful to me if she’s dragging this out just to pop up months later to “officially/for certain” let me know she’s done. why bother at that point? I’m already grieving this and moving on

But why would someone drag that out? Esp when she has no issue sending the email to cut me off initially.  Does anyone have ideas of what could be going on? 

[NighttimeNightmare]

5 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

I can't - I was trying to find what I read and haven't, but maybe I will look through this thread again later when I have more time.  It was something to the effect that you felt like you had to speak loudly if you needed someone to listen or to change.   But, maybe it was not you who wrote that and / or it was a different thread.  Does it ring any bells for you?

Oooh ok. Ya, that was me. I meant that in a more loose and general sense. Not someone changing at their core… I was referring to familial situations moreso. Like for me it seems certain family members lack respect and I have to literally raise my voice to get movement under their feet because just saying “hey it would be helpful if you could do xyz” doesn’t work with those types in particular 

I’m not a fan of raising my voice in general and in romantic connections I prefer people who just offer respect and consideration on their own 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

Hmm I have a minor update: she just contacted me 

she wanted to know how I was doing and told me she’s still struggling heavily with some health issues 

 

idk if I missed an email in between this one and the last or if she just doesn’t wanna get into a deep convo right now. Assuming she doesn’t with her health issues 

 

I’m thinking my approach is just gonna be as it’s always been with her: go with the flow. But this time be mindful of the way I speak. Making sure my language is beneficial to her well-being as opposed to needing to defend my own. 

[rainbowsandroses]

With respect to someone "changing" (which I define as reflecting on past actions that may have been or were hurtful to your partner and thus changing those hurtful actions), NN I'd like to point out that it was after your girlfriend 'distanced' by telling you she needed a "break" and has remained true to that, that you began reflecting on your hurtful actions (your communication style), and are still reflecting!

Do you think had you sat down with each other and discussed the issue "nicely" or if SHE had become angry with raised voice, and/or began yelling, it would have had the same, imo, awesome result?  

All the self-reflecting and learning you are doing now via this thread? 

Personally I don't think so.  Your relationship needed a bit of a "shake up" (or big action as you posted earlier) for you to begin self-reflecting and making positive changes within yourself.

That will benefit you regardless of whether your relationship works out with her or not!

I'm curious to know what your thoughts are about that?

P.S.  Just read your update.  I'm glad she reached out!  😀

[Batya33]

25 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

’m thinking my approach is just gonna be as it’s always been with her: go with the flow. But this time be mindful of the way I speak. Making sure my language is beneficial to her well-being as opposed to needing to defend my own

Which flow? If the flow of being in a relationship with her I'd ask her ASAP what her intentions are in contacting you and what is her view of you two together -or not.  It's easier to keep things in limbo and vague short term - but long term -IMO way too risky as far as you getting hurt again because you won't know where you stand with her. You said you don't want a casual sex or once in awhile casual date arrangement with her. If you want to be in a couple with her I would limit all contact to purely impersonal until you two determine where you are now -and whether you have compatible ideas and goals of what you want to happen in the near future at least.

[Cherylyn]

I've noticed there are various people in different categories.  Some acquaintance type relationships even amongst friends and family tend to be shallow and superficial.  You play along to get along.  Not always though.  I've pumped the brakes on certain people.  Sure,  I'm nice but it only goes so far.  😒

Then there are those whom you thought were extra special in your life and you discover that they're really not.  What they say or write comes across as a sense of entitlement without consequences because you tolerate it in order to keep the peace.  They get away with their often narcissistic comments,  glib,  flippant and callous remarks because they know you'll continue to accept them as they are even though you don't subscribe to treating others in the same manner.  

Should you confront them,  they'll become awfully defensive,  deflect,  become divisive,  gaslight,  ("you're too sensitive,"  "you took it the wrong way,"  "you're passing judgment"  blah blah blah) 🙄, which is their typical response.   It's their way to control the dynamic and narrative.  Sorry,  I'm out.  I don't like red flagged,  complex,  tricky people.  👎

Some people readjust and recalibrate IF they possess emotional intelligence.  It is rare though.  They'll think before they speak and write IF they want you to keep them in your good graces.  If they don't care about you,  they don't need you,  you're not useful to them and you're easily disposable,  it's very telling of their subpar character because obviously you don't matter to them.  Hence,  they simply move onto someone else who won't mind capitulating all the time.  They love the tolerant types.   They don't like anyone who dares to challenge them or rock the boat because they don't like the fact that I don't play and I don't take 💩from anyone.

I'm the type who doesn't always protest each and every time.  I've found what is highly effective is to simply avoid them as if they have COVID or I enforce healthy boundaries with them.  I don't have to say anything at all. 😐 I let my non-actions do all the work for me.  😋 

We don't always have to be lumped together with people who don't mesh well with us.  You have choices so take it.  🙂 👍  Never put up and shut up.  Never tolerate their 💩.

If clarification to interpret what was said is done with emotional intelligence in mind without becoming defensive and engaging in gaslighting and IF both parties are intelligent enough to be mature,  I can see how it can work.  It's possible to resolve conflict or a misunderstanding.  If there were slights and offering of amends with a sincere,  very humble apology,  it heals wounds and puts any hard feelings aside.   However,  it requires two people to be smart enough to comprehend.  Many times,  there's push back and excuses.  I hope it is the former and not the latter. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

47 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Do you think had you sat down with each other and discussed the issue "nicely" or if SHE had become angry with raised voice, and/or began yelling, it would have had the same, imo, awesome result?  

No. I know I wouldn’t have cos she had sat me down a few times and talked to me about this and I didn’t realize how serious it was, or could become, I guess.  I always just kinda thought “eh we worked it out. We’re good” but I didn’t take note it would eventually be fatal until she did something drastic - removed herself 

Hopefully in the future if someone is getting hurt by me I can seek help sooner than later. Before it gets to this point 

[Cherylyn]

11 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

No. I know I wouldn’t have cos she had sat me down a few times and talked to me about this and I didn’t realize how serious it was, or could become, I guess.  I always just kinda thought “eh we worked it out. We’re good” but I didn’t take note it would eventually be fatal until she did something drastic - removed herself 

Hopefully in the future if someone is getting hurt by me I can seek help sooner than later. Before it gets to this point 

If slights are not taken seriously,  then a person doesn't take you seriously anymore either.  It works both ways. 

Also,  many times consequences are harsh and  final  without heated arguments.  Actions speak louder than words. 

[catfeeder]

3 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

But why would someone drag that out? Esp when she has no issue sending the email to cut me off initially.  Does anyone have ideas of what could be going on? 

Is this the same woman you were friends with for a long time but wanted more?

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, catfeeder said:

Is this the same woman you were friends with for a long time but wanted more?

Yes. More like it felt like more and I was struggling because we never defined it or discussed where it was headed. And at that time, I do feel that would have perhaps benefited me. 
 

but since then, I just allowed things to be, and I continued allowing things to unfold on their own. And it did. We’ve definitely upped our relationship 

 

On the more daily things: I’ve met all her friends at this point. I’m her +1 everywhere, she’s mine. She’s met my friends, my mom. When I’m hurt I go to her, she tends to me. Vice verse though clearly I’m not perfect at it. We have dinner together. Run errands together. Stay in together. Go out together. She’s made it very clear to me and her friends that there is no one else, and she’s happy with where we are and what we’re doing. I’ve told her the same.  
 

we’ve never sat down and had some big convo about it but this works for us even if it doesn’t make sense to others. 
 

I retract my use of the word “ambiguous” and “vague in, vague out,” in an earlier comment because as I thought about it, it’s not ambiguous or vague. People define things and make solid commitments all of the time and they still cheat on each other, ghost each other, disappear, abandon, etc. I feel like I was trying to appease other people by feeling like I haaaad to have this big convo with her and define it and box it up, or feeling like I had to downplay or doubt what I knew of ‘us’ because it didn’t fit a standard mold 

[LootieTootie]

So I have been lurking here and I was thinking maybe if you tell us exactly what transpired, we could get a better idea. But without it, I think I have to agree with Redswim.... 

I think maybe it comes down to compatibility because the example you gave, it doesnt seem like it was something in my opinion to "break up" with someone. 

I think its good that you're evolving and want to be a better communicator. Its so important to have relationships in our lives- to shape us, make us smarter emotionally, stronger mentally, and to help us grow as better versions of our core selves, even if people hurt us or disappoint us. We really do overcome and grow from it all.

If you really like or love her, I hope she does forgive you. You seem self-aware, cognizant of her sensitivities, but we all misspeak. And yes, there are times we feel bad about it because it might have triggered someone. All you can do is apologize and express regret how it came out and clarify. If that doesn't work, then just know this person isn't for you.

 

[Batya33]

There is no one else she said -when she said it -have you discussed whether you two are ok with the other dating others/pursuing others to date? My husband and I never had a big discussion -he asked me to get back together and I said yes and in the next few minutes talked about our goals of marriage/family and me being the one to relocate for his job.  It was a little more involved because of potential for long distance and we're both marriage minded but it wasn't some complicated discussion.  What it did confirm was we weren't keeping options open, we were in a committed romantic relationship with serious potential, and we were no longer hanging out as just friends as we'd done over the past 5 weeks or so three times. It also meant much less risk of what is happening in your situation because when you confirm what you are to each other you're also committing to not running at the first sign of a communication issue.  

Your title uses the term partner but you say you didn't have a discussion -does she consider you her partner?

[catfeeder]

16 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

...but since then, I just allowed things to be, and I continued allowing things to unfold on their own. And it did. We’ve definitely upped our relationship 

Okay, good. Has this relationship become sexual?

[yogacat]

On 8/27/2024 at 12:24 AM, NighttimeNightmare said:

On 8/26/2024 at 7:32 PM, yogacat said:

Because I am wondering if she does have feelings of inadequacy that she maybe needs some positive reinforcement and genuine love shown to her, i.e., that she is valued and loved, and to be grounded in the belief that her partner values her and supports her.

I agree. And my way of speaking to and handling her was not this.  My communication was based on protecting my own turf and defending my intent.  I thought that was the correct way to do things.  So whenever I made her feel bad about herself and she’d tell me, I just argued instead of reassuring her 

Trying not to beat myself up too much over it. I feel horrible for her. I know it was a lot for her to let me close and that’s what I did to her 

Haven't read all the comments (there's a lot, lol).

I just want to touch on this part.

Protecting your own turf sends the message that you are in charge/enforcing your own version of reality. That you are separating yourself from your gf.  Saying "I know I'm right because I have proof" is defending your position which further enforces the separation. If there is any self-righteousness in your tone, your gf is gonna feel criticized and maligned. If there isn't any of these you'd be able to ask this simple question to yourself "is my fervency for proving my point creating a barrier between me and my gf?"

Why is it that you're wanting to proactively criticize anyone for things that are irrelevant to you - never mind how another person may take it? Like, when you said to your girlfriend "ok make sure you sign up for xyz" out of a need to prove yourself "right" - your girlfriend then felt you said she was making bad decisions when this was an unnecessary, critical, preemptive strike by you. Which also threw a wedge between the two of you.

In any other exchange, I would say that your girlfriend is being overly sensitive.

But in your example, you might as well have said "I'm not sure about your intellect and ability to make your own decisions so I have to assert myself."

Protecting your turf tends to be based on low self-esteem and insecurity. Meaning if you aren't being accepted, you have to create a false reality by attacking others. 

[Batya33]

Following up on Yogacat would you rather be right or be close? Sometimes one has to choose.  Like not saying "I told you so" especially where the person is already feeling frustrated with themselves including for not listening to you in the first place, perhaps.  So often waiting 24 hours makes you realize how foolish it is to act on the urge to be "right." Especially when it risks the closeness that is built on trusting that if you show vulnerabiliity, admit a mistake you won't be told "I told you so."  

[Cherylyn]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:38 PM, Batya33 said:

Following up on Yogacat would you rather be right or be close? Sometimes one has to choose.  Like not saying "I told you so" especially where the person is already feeling frustrated with themselves including for not listening to you in the first place, perhaps.  So often waiting 24 hours makes you realize how foolish it is to act on the urge to be "right." Especially when it risks the closeness that is built on trusting that if you show vulnerability, admit a mistake you won't be told "I told you so."  

I can't in good conscience feel close to a person if their values and principles don't align with mine.  Integrity is tantamount to me.  Sure,  I can be civil towards said person but it doesn't mean I'll feel close to them.  I also don't trust people whom I'm not close to because something is missing.  We're not on the same wavelength and there's lack of emotional intelligence which is an automatic deal breaker.  Can I be peaceful?  Yes.  Is there closeness?  No.  I generally do not go against my will in order to be close to anyone. 

As for "I told you so,"  I generally find it unnecessary because the person experiencing consequences knows full well that they made a mistake and will have to pay for it one way or another. 

I don't engage in a complicated dance with anyone.  Either we're on the same page regarding empathy or it won't work.  Why waste my time,  energy and resources on futility?  😒  I can already determine the outcome 20 jumps ahead.  It's nothing I hadn't experienced before so I don't even bother traveling down that road anymore.  🤨

[Batya33]

23 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

I can't in good conscience feel close to a person if their values and principles don't align with mine.  Integrity is tantamount to me.  Sure,  I can be civil towards said person but it doesn't mean I'll feel close to them.  I also don't trust people whom I'm not close to because something is missing.  We're not on the same wavelength and there's lack of emotional intelligence which is an automatic deal breaker.  Can I be peaceful?  Yes.  Is there closeness?  No.  I generally do not go against my will in order to be close to anyone. 

As for "I told you so,"  I generally find it unnecessary because the person experiencing consequences knows full well that they made a mistake and will have to pay for it one way or another. 

I don't engage in a complicated dance with anyone.  Either we're on the same page regarding empathy or it won't work.  Why waste my time,  energy and resources on futility?  😒  I can already determine the outcome 20 jumps ahead.  It's nothing I hadn't experienced before so I don't even bother traveling down that road anymore.  🤨

I wasn't referring to right in a values way.  Some people prefer to be "right" in an argument no matter how minor to make a point and be right instead of deciding not to argue the point and or reaching a compromise in order to maintain closeness.  I've read and heard about being right instead of being close in articles by mental health professionals doing relationship and marriage counseling.

[Cherylyn]

10 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I wasn't referring to right in a values way.  Some people prefer to be "right" in an argument no matter how minor to make a point and be right instead of deciding not to argue the point and or reaching a compromise in order to maintain closeness.  I've read and heard about being right instead of being close in articles by mental health professionals doing relationship and marriage counseling.

Yes,  I was this way in the past but lately,  it's important to be right.  However,  I agree,  for me,  many times less is more especially when I know what the outcome will be should I speak up about being right regarding principles of the matter.  I can already foresee that I will be gaslit as usual. 😒 Therefore,  I don't have to be verbally right and same with in written form.  In my heart,  I don't feel close to a person if I know we're not on the same page nor would I have the desire to maintain closeness.  My desire is dead and gone.  My mind got up and left. 

A good example is the other day when there were too many blips and red flags during a recent in person conversation.  I knew I was right but I didn't bother defending nor engaging in a confrontation with this person because the conversation ends up in dizzying vicious circles with no resolution in sight.  It's as if you're dealing with the town idiot.  🥴  I simply drop my own bomb and decide upon enforcing a new set of strict borders and boundaries.  Works every time.  No need to complain and explain.