Is it partially a partner’s responsibility to interpret correctly what is said?

[NighttimeNightmare]

27 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

To help people feel comfortable in their own skin around you.

Damn. This sentence got me.  I think this sentence is going to be crucial to my changing. I can’t say that most of my communication tactics accomplish this.  And now you’ve given me an actual GOAL. So thank you, I needed that.  

 

23 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

Good on you for trying your best, NN. She must mean a lot to you.

Thank you! She does, but I don’t think she’ll be back in the context that she was. I mean, on one hand I kind of think she would have said that in the txt she sent me… but I also haven’t heard from her again. So I kind of suspect she’s getting rid of her feelings before re-engaging with me.  It’s hard to say with her. But really I just want to do this for my future. I’m so exhausted and tired of hurting people I care about esp to the point of loss. 

[Cherylyn]

4 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

But what if you did? 

I was referring to the "you took it the wrong way" response as opposed to offering a sincere apology.  Whenever a person says,  "You took it the wrong way,"  it's defensive and bowing out of accountability.  When a person says,  "You took it the wrong way," often times the person saying that feels a sense of entitlement without apologizing for hurting a person's feelings. 

For example,  I've complained to my then fiance (now husband) regarding a humiliating public statement she had made at a social gathering.  It was a dig and there was no translation nor interpretation whatsoever required.  It was a typical narcissistic remark in front of friends and family.  When I told my fiance,  he confronted his mother and asked her what she meant.  Instead of apologizing for her faux pas,  she said,  "Cherylyn took it the wrong way." 

A narcissist doesn't care.  It's not even denying wrongdoing.  They simply do NOT care whenever a glib,  flippant reply is callously dispensed like that.  You don't matter.  Obnoxious disrespect and rudeness is considered their norm.  It's ok though because it's very telling about the true nature of a person's character.  All I do is learn to stay away because these types of people are tricky and complicated types.   Live and learn. 🤨 I've heard it all and it's nothing new.

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, catfeeder said:

and there we are, in the toxic territory of defense. We ALL have gone there, it's not a personality flaw in you.

True. I think where all of these things become a big issue for me is that in me, they’re on the extreme end of the spectrum. I guess all of these things are normal human behaviors as a baseline, but I routinely operate way outside of any normal window of tolerance and that’s where the behavior becomes problematic or defined as “disordered”

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Damn. This sentence got me.  I think this sentence is going to be crucial to my changing. I can’t say that most of my communication tactics accomplish this.  And now you’ve given me an actual GOAL. So thank you, I needed that.  

 

Why is that not your natural goal? I like to make people laugh because it's fun for all of us BUT in many situations I carefully read the room, the situation before doing so.  My sister and I can do all the digs at each other and laugh hysterically but I mean we've known each other for like 5 plus decades.  If you overheard us or saw our texts you'd cringe I bet lol.  And I don't mean biting sarcasm where we pretend to "joke" but are taking real digs - our form of sarcasm is layered with love lol -inside jokes and we know we adore each other.  But with other friends- even other close friends -I have different boundaries - I will not ever make suggestions even to certain people in my life about: weight/diet/fitness/romantic relationships/parenting/money.  Even if they ask I'm extremely hesitant.  And they do ask!

For those people who share with me goals, plans, ideas - I often just mirror what they said and/or say "that sounds good -good luck!"  Even if they judge themselves.  I made the mistake once of telling a childhood friend to take a lesser job when she was unemployed just to get her foot in the door.  She was very offended.  And defensive.  And a half hour later in our conversation shared that there was another separate reason she did not want that job and realized that otherwise it likely would be a good strategy despite being ego-deflating.  But my suggestion did not trigger her to respond initially with that information because her whole focus was on being offended/defensive.  I'm lucky she did share with me later the other reason.  She trusted me enough I guess.

Ask yourself why you don't strive to make people feel comfortable around you - if not why do you wish to be around people, why do you wish to be in a relationship.  You could-alternatively -casually and superficially date with the main focus being sexual intimacy -obviously where you both were comfortable having sex and having a nice meal or some other fun activity and you wouldn't have to put in any real effort to communicate effectively if it all stayed relatively superficial. Just some self honesty. I see totally you want to do the work/put in the effort -but where's that want coming from -do you really want close emotional intimacy? Or just as a means to an end? (which is fine if the other person also is up for casual dating and sex).

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Why is that not your natural goal?

I don’t know. And I don’t want it to be to be honest. I am who I am. I quite like myself and my brain has allowed me lots of success. I don’t want to change myself, I want to rope bad traits in so that I can care for the people who matter to me in a fulfilling way.  
 

i don’t have the mental or emotional capacity to want to give curated care to the entire world, or everyone I meet. Maybe in the future I’ll want that. But for now I’m just trying to deal with the people closest to me 

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

For those people who share with me goals, plans, ideas - I often just mirror what they said and/or say "that sounds good -good luck!"  

But what if it doesn’t sound good. Or it’s an outright bad idea? I’m not even talking about acquaintances or friends who are not close. I guess I’m talking of close bonds or partnerships, because that changes things. 
 

I guess there’s a way to alert someone to a bad idea but it’s a situation of “not what you say but how you say it”

I started taking a class on communication last night and basically they say the goal with communication is collaboration. Your words should be good for you, and your partner.  It’s not about being right, it’s about being collaborative.  These are the “rules” I need.  This is helpful to me, along with your words I quoted earlier. It’s beginning to click in my brain 

I’m good at being collaborative in other areas. Like actions, deeds, art, volunteering, what’s for dinner, etc. But I never considered being collaborative in my speech 

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Ask yourself why you don't strive to make people feel comfortable around you

People are always just drawn to me. I dont have to think about my actions or behavior. I just exist and be myself. I’m super social. I laugh a lot. I like to have fun.  So I tend to attract that type of person and it’s naturally just a blast, easily, without me ever having to put thought into it 

but of course, now that my relationships are deeper, more emotional, I am going to have to strive to make that person comfortable when it comes to things of the heart. 

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

You could-alternatively -casually and superficially date with the main focus being sexual intimacy -obviously where you both were comfortable having sex and having a nice meal or some other fun activity and you wouldn't have to put in any real effort to communicate effectively if it all stayed relatively superficial

This sounds awful to me. I don’t even tend to feel sexual without a deep emotional connection in the first place.  The issue with me is I’ve been unable to sustain a deep emotional connection because I’ve lacked the tools to do so

ive gained a lot of tools over the last 3 years. And with this thread here and the new course I’m taking, I’m starting to gain even more.

don’t want superficial relationships. But I also don’t believe I have a right to hurt anyone so it’s my responsibility to learn these things before getting close to someone again 

hard to know what needs work though until I’m close enough for things to be triggered and brought to the surface 

[NighttimeNightmare]

You know what upsets me about this entire situation. Communication/etc issues aside. 
 

the way she handled this. I mean, I get that if you feel hurt by someone over and over you have less of a mind to tend to that person, and eventually you may just abruptly remove yourself for various reasons. I do get that. I’m not saying I’m owed anything 

but at the same time it felt sudden. We went from being so close… to nothing. All I got was a freakin email where she used the word BREAK. She wasn’t even clear, IMO, in that email. I’m personally not a fan of breaks, I think they often point to the end of something, but not always. But anyway, she used the word break “I think we need a break from one another” and mentioned how much she cares about our connection. 
 

so my usual inclination is to put up every guard and remove myself.  But this time I was like ok wait, don’t catastrophize. She’s saying she cares and values our connection, and using the word break which sounds temporary. Maybe we just need to take a breather”. But after nearly a month I still hadn’t heard back from her so I reached out asking for clarity. Again, something i would usually NEVER do. I just disappear and close the door.  But her complaint against me was thinking I’m always right blah blah so I figured ok let me ask directly instead of assuming 
 

I reached out and asked if this was a permanent thing or what because her email was sort of ambiguous. Her response was that she felt we can’t be like that because the issues seem to keep popping up but that she doesn’t dislike me or never want to see me. We just can’t get that close. Said she misses having that with me but she doesn’t see the way I speak changing. 
 

it’s like ok why didn’t you say that initially then?? Why did I have to reach out for clarity to find there was permanence in it. Why use the word BREAK. She isn’t stupid. And I get human emotions are changing and fickle.  
 

so I left it alone. Until people started asking me what’s going on with she and I and I confided in a friend who read our txts and said I’m completely missing the nuances on what she’s saying. And how my responses to her sounded cold and removed. Businesslike. 
 

that’s when I eventually wrote her an email being vulnerable and realizing my part in all of this. I wish she would have responded telling me she’s sorry but her stance is firm. No. Instead I get a response saying how much she appreciates hearing this from me and to please allow her some time to respond. 
 

but now it’s been like 2 weeks. On one hand I’m trying not to continue on in my bad habits making it about me and my feelings. Because it can’t be all about me and my needs.  But on the other hand there’s reality. No response is a response.  Or even just her dragging it out.  Why drag it out just to reject me later on. I wish she would have just rejected me when she responded. 
 

 

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I don’t know. And I don’t want it to be to be honest. I am who I am. I quite like myself and my brain has allowed me lots of success. I don’t want to change myself, I want to rope bad traits in so that I can care for the people who matter to me in a fulfilling way.  
 

i don’t have the mental or emotional capacity to want to give curated care to the entire world, or everyone I meet. Maybe in the future I’ll want that. But for now I’m just trying to deal with the people closest to me 

That's not at all what I meant by wanting people to be comfortable in their own skin when they interact with  you - it simply means acting in a thoughtful and kind way and hoping your way of interacting with them, of being with them in whatever situation is consistent with their sense of self and security -if it doesn't work out that way so be it but the intention is you want the other person to feel comfortable.  Nothing to do with giving curated care at all - nothing at all like that.

For example I've seen many people interact with young kids as if the kid is there to entertain them and look cute like a puppet and they don't care at all if the child is comfortable.  They don't care if the child's body language is "leave me alone" or "approach but in a low key way" or if the child feels like talking or sharing.  It's disrespectful and selfish.  Same thing with people who already are thinking about the next thing they're going to say as opposed to listening - they don't care at all if they're actually listening to the person - they only care how they sound so the person who is speaking is likely going to be uncomfortable speaking -but not really being listened to or heard.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

You know what upsets me about this entire situation. Communication/etc issues aside. 
 

the way she handled this. I mean, I get that if you feel hurt by someone over and over you have less of a mind to tend to that person, and eventually you may just abruptly remove yourself for various reasons. I do get that. I’m not saying I’m owed anything 

but at the same time it felt sudden. We went from being so close… to nothing. All I got was a freakin email where she used the word BREAK. She wasn’t even clear, IMO, in that email. I’m personally not a fan of breaks, I think they often point to the end of something, but not always. But anyway, she used the word break “I think we need a break from one another” and mentioned how much she cares about our connection. 
 

so my usual inclination is to put up every guard and remove myself.  But this time I was like ok wait, don’t catastrophize. She’s saying she cares and values our connection, and using the word break which sounds temporary. Maybe we just need to take a breather”. But after nearly a month I still hadn’t heard back from her so I reached out asking for clarity. Again, something i would usually NEVER do. I just disappear and close the door.  But her complaint against me was thinking I’m always right blah blah so I figured ok let me ask directly instead of assuming 
 

I reached out and asked if this was a permanent thing or what because her email was sort of ambiguous. Her response was that she felt we can’t be like that because the issues seem to keep popping up but that she doesn’t dislike me or never want to see me. We just can’t get that close. Said she misses having that with me but she doesn’t see the way I speak changing. 
 

it’s like ok why didn’t you say that initially then?? Why did I have to reach out for clarity to find there was permanence in it. Why use the word BREAK. She isn’t stupid. And I get human emotions are changing and fickle.  
 

so I left it alone. Until people started asking me what’s going on with she and I and I confided in a friend who read our txts and said I’m completely missing the nuances on what she’s saying. And how my responses to her sounded cold and removed. Businesslike. 
 

that’s when I eventually wrote her an email being vulnerable and realizing my part in all of this. I wish she would have responded telling me she’s sorry but her stance is firm. No. Instead I get a response saying how much she appreciates hearing this from me and to please allow her some time to respond. 
 

but now it’s been like 2 weeks. On one hand I’m trying not to continue on in my bad habits making it about me and my feelings. Because it can’t be all about me and my needs.  But on the other hand there’s reality. No response is a response.  Or even just her dragging it out.  Why drag it out just to reject me later on. I wish she would have just rejected me when she responded. 
 

 

I think she wasn't sure if it was a break or break up at the time and was hoping space would be sufficient.  She values the connection and also needs to take care of herself.  When it comes to communicating about what two people mean to each other to clarify who you are to each other I find that vague sort of woo woo words like "connection" are an excuse not to provide clarity. 

Not to define anything so you have an easy out.  When I need space from my husband -a loved one -someone I am committed to for better or for worse - I am direct and specific: "I just need to sit quietly now in front of my computer and eat some lunch".

But my friend who routinely ignores that I'm not going to be available at certain times of day because of family responsibiities, meal prep/meal time - I simply don't respond to her texts or calls at those times and show her with my actions only -hopefully she'll get the hint. I don't feel I owe her more and I'm not in the mood to be clear (I was once or twice-didn't work).

With your person - it sounds like in general you two danced around the whole defining who you were to each other for a very very long time, and even now it sounds like maybe you did determine you should date -maybe date exclusively -but to me it still sounds vague and nebulous which means she can be vague about exiting.  I think both of you did this to play it safer -because if you define something as a relationship in the mostly traditional sense you have a lot more responsibility to each other and the relationship than if you leave it loosey goosey.  

Early-ish in our marriage I got really mad at my husband - and I left him and the baby and left the house but I told him -clearly - I am going out for a walk and I will be back (gave him an estimate).  I owed him that - not to just go MIA -both for emotional and practical reasons.  I came back about an hour later after visiting a now closed gay bookstore lol because it was close by and I love bookstores.  He was worried -for my safety after dark - but no I never would have left him hanging even though I was really mad at him.  If he wasn't my husband or my long term partner and just someone I had an arrangement with I'd feel less responsible for being clear if I needed space.  I'd have felt freer to just -leave/throw in the towel after an argument.  So it depends.  Maybe I missed where you two actually decided to be partners or bf/gf - but it didn't come across that way.  

[NighttimeNightmare]

48 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I find that vague sort of woo woo words like "connection" are an excuse not to provide clarity. 

Tbh that’s me who is using that word. But I’m not saying her phrasing is any more clear

50 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

With your person - it sounds like in general you two danced around the whole defining who you were to each other for a very very long time, and even now it sounds like maybe you did determine you should date -maybe date exclusively -but to me it still sounds vague and nebulous which means she can be vague about exiting

Yes, that’s the gist of it. That’s just where I’m at and it is what it is   Ive always been like this, I never sat down with any partner and figured out “what we were” etc   I am not suggesting there aren’t times where this is helpful or necessary, nor am I suggesting this isn’t a good go-to method for many, maybe most, people   but I’ve never done it and I’ve been in several long term relationships 

similar happened here, without going into a lot of detail, we progressed our “connection” … I don’t want to debate this because there’s no way I can explain everything over txt or with words.  Sometimes words are just so limiting and sometimes two people just know when they’re together without having to say it; in my experience it’s been because I didn’t need to; In this situation it was for other reasons.  I don’t expect anyone to understand that, but that was our reality 
 

I’m well aware that not sitting and defining it gave an easy exit strategy, which I see was utilized.  That’s ok.  That’s where both of us were able to operate from. I don’t think it makes either of us bad people … people get hurt in relationships that were defined all of the time.  So for me, I did what I was capable of - an ambiguous relationship with her 
 

theres a reason she’s single at her age.  Not saying people need to be partnered, no, but many of her fears were very obvious to me  .. another reason I just let this whole thing form on its own, NSA 

 

[yogacat]

On 8/25/2024 at 1:19 AM, NighttimeNightmare said:

Here’s an example:

say my partner told me she was going to sign up for a class. I respond with “ok make sure you sign up for xyz,” she gets mad and proceeds to tell me that I make her feel stupid, like she’s doing everything wrong in terms of her choices.  I say, confused, “what? No I was just saying that because I care and I didn’t want you sign up for the wrong thing, I don’t think you’re stupid.” But it’s too late, that person already felt the pain of believing I was calling them stupid. 
 

then damage control can be applied. Where the Speaker tells in greater detail what they meant, why they said it, and the partner then goes “why didn’t you just say that in the first place?”
 

but why would someone feel stupid, if they know you don’t really think they’re stupid? Isn’t that partially on them to go “ok there’s no way he meant it that way” instead of jumping to getting offended and hurt? 
 

 

Haven't read all the comments so just responding to your above example, unless you do in fact think your girlfriend is "dumb" or "stupid" and have a history of dismissing her opinions or choices, she is feeling in competition with her self-constructed "mental construct" of what she believes you think of her in her mind.

Does she normally feel in general that she is making wrong choices or feels that she is "dumb" or subpar in comparison to others? Or is it just when you say things that she feels this way?

Because I am wondering if she does have feelings of inadequacy that she maybe needs some positive reinforcement and genuine love shown to her, i.e., that she is valued and loved, and to be grounded in the belief that her partner values her and supports her.

I know this was just one example but if your girlfriend shows a tendency to misinterpret a lot of what you say as being "dumb, stupid, or inferior," then she could really benefit from communication skills and learning to decipher feelings, etc., and getting to the root of why she feels this way. It's not to blame her but to help her understand why she is feeling this way. 

If you're always making comments here and there then what you can learn from this is to listen empathetically to your girlfriend as you already do. And when she doesn't feel heard or respected by you at the moment, say, "I can see that I didn't communicate properly/didn't come across the way I intended. Will you hear/listen to me fully so I can tell you what was really on my mind was?"  

It's not only a way to truly clarify what you meant without minimizing her feelings or "team up" with her against her "mental construct" of herself but also deepens your relationship in that you both hear each other fully.

When she doesn't feel heard, it's your job as her equal partner to own the miscommunication and clarify per above. Not just say "I didn't mean to come off that way" and leave it at that. If either of you feel uneasy or misunderstood, it's up to you to them communicate where you come from if that's what you need.

Now if she has a tendency to misinterpret or gets hurt over little things, communicate your needs. Like, "can you please not be so anxious that I had to explain additionally to you why I said that. I didn't mean anything negative by that and I feel that you don't believe me."

It's not a paradigm shift as a couple but a just a little tweak in assertive communication. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

4 hours ago, yogacat said:

Does she normally feel in general that she is making wrong choices or feels that she is "dumb" or subpar in comparison to others? Or is it just when you say things that she feels this way?

yes and no.  I don’t think other people’s opinions really bother her; they don’t seem to anyway. It’s me who seems to be able to really harm her when it comes to that 

I’ve understood two things are occurring here (1) she carries a wound from childhood from when her mother would call her stupid constantly. She isn’t, she’s actually really intelligent, but it was a situation of her mother being jealous of the relationship she had with her own father. So her mother would belittle her and insult her choices.  I know as an adult that’s a wound that can get triggered in her (2) the way I’m speaking doesn’t jive well with that. I mean, it doesn’t jive well with anyone if I’m being honest, but I think with her it’s an even more fragile situation but I’ve broken down even the most secure of women

4 hours ago, yogacat said:

Because I am wondering if she does have feelings of inadequacy that she maybe needs some positive reinforcement and genuine love shown to her, i.e., that she is valued and loved, and to be grounded in the belief that her partner values her and supports her.

I agree. And my way of speaking to and handling her was not this.  My communication was based on protecting my own turf and defending my intent.  I thought that was the correct way to do things.  So whenever I made her feel bad about herself and she’d tell me, I just argued instead of reassuring her 

Trying not to beat myself up too much over it. I feel horrible for her. I know it was a lot for her to let me close and that’s what I did to her 

4 hours ago, yogacat said:

she could really benefit from communication skills and learning to decipher feelings, etc., and getting to the root of why she feels this way. It's not to blame her but to help her understand why she is feeling this way. 

 

Initially she admitted part of this was her because of her mom. But over time I think I became more and more brazen in the way I was treating her and handling these issues. And that shined a light on a deeper issue that lies with me.  I mean looking back I’m genuinely shocked at some of my responses.  I have my own wound that I carry and any time that ever got triggered in me due to something she did, she treated me with care and compassion  

but with that said, she was going to start therapy to sort through some of this stuff.  But I know that even if she didn’t have that wound my way of communicating is just awfully hurtful to those who get close to me 

4 hours ago, yogacat said:

And when she doesn't feel heard or respected by you at the moment, say, "I can see that I didn't communicate properly/didn't come across the way I intended. Will you hear/listen to me fully so I can tell you what was really on my mind was?"  

 

4 hours ago, yogacat said:

When she doesn't feel heard, it's your job as her equal partner to own the miscommunication and clarify per above. Not just say "I didn't mean to come off that way" and leave it at that. If either of you feel uneasy or misunderstood, it's up to you to them communicate where you come from if that's what you need

How did you learn these tactics to communicate properly? Something very similar to this was in a course I’m taking on communicating.  And they say nearly this exact thing.  That if your partner is hurt it’s your job to disarm them and remove the threat you caused (through caring reassurance etc) , and then your job to jump in and communicate clearly and properly in a way your partner can understand.  This is the complete opposite of what I was doing 

Tbh last time we talked I went on a spiel about how I’m right and that’s why I said this or that and I know I’m right cos I have proof 

I don’t know if she’ll ever speak to me again in the capacity we were tbh  

Thank you for your thoughts and your insight to this dynamic 

[TeeDee]

On 8/25/2024 at 2:30 AM, NighttimeNightmare said:

So back to the main question: if a partner is hurt by my words, is it at least in part their responsibility to understand that I “didn’t mean it that way?”  

Perception is reality.  

So if you said X but your partner understood Y, they only perceive Y.  If Y hurts them they will be upset.  For you to say I didn't mean Y & put the blame on them for misunderstanding your failure to be empathetic toward their pain only hurts them worse.  It's like pouring salt in the wound. 

My husband is very casual & imprecise with language.  He often says things off the cuff that hurt my feelings.  Early on in our relationship I would get very hurt.  Now I can step back & say you said "these words" and I understood them to mean "hateful thing".  In that moment I need him to acknowledge that "hateful thing" is indeed hurtful & that he's sorry he caused me pain even inadvertently.   Then we can move to what you are calling the collaborative phase so he can explain what he was really trying to say; sometimes that does require him to revisit the issue because even what he meant wasn't good.  However, if he stuck to his guns, reiterated the literal words & didn't acknowledge my pain, that would cause more hurt & upset. 

Since you want tools & since this has happened in all of your relationships, next time it occurs you need to take a deep breath & say something along the lines of 

"I think I may have misspoken.  You are upset & for that I'm sorry.  I fear you may have heard or understood something other than what I was trying to communicate. Can we talk about it?"

In short you have to say something to diffuse the situation & be empathetic.  

[rainbowsandroses]

11 minutes ago, TeeDee said:

In short you have to say something to diffuse the situation & be empathetic.  

^^This is precisely the problem NN is facing though.  Admittedly as a recovering NPD, he lacks empathy or struggles with it.

So it's not enough to say "be empathetic."  How can someone be empathetic when they're not?  

Can it be learned?  Taught?  I honestly don't know. 

In any event, your advice was good @TeeDee, hopefully NN can put it into practice. 

[Batya33]

I too like TeeDees advice and indeed I said something off the cuff/hurtful to my husband last night when I was exhausted (that's for context not justification).  

NN- how do you "learn" these skills? My sense always has been -and I am not the best communicator or anything - that if you start with your heart in the right place and want others to be comfortable around you and focus on being close rather than "right" that's half the battle and the rest is basically tweaking/trial and error.  Also I think shut up and listen and silence is wayy underrated as a way of effective communication.  As is body language and eye contact. I think texting as a form of substantive communication is far too risky in your situation. 

A month or so ago there was a miscommunication between me and a coworker on email.  It would have been much much easier for me to respond via email to "fix" it.  I realized that emailing more risked making it worse even if I tried to make it better.  But I made myself pick up the darn phone and talk it out .  It was awkward, uncomfortable but the act of calling showed my coworker I cared enough and wanted to resolve any miscommunication,  During our conversation I learned she had misread emails -not the words of the emails but who was on the email and who was not.   What a mess. 

That was basically resolved by a less than 10 minute phone call.  I highly suggest given your specific issues and concerns you dial way back, pun intended on typing important stuff.  Or joking unless you are sure your fellow texter will  get it.

[TeeDee]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

So it's not enough to say "be empathetic."  How can someone be empathetic when they're not?  

Can it be learned?  Taught?  I honestly don't know. 

The person doesn't necessarily have to feel the empathy.  They have to say words -- words that can be learned -- acknowledging that the other person somehow got hurt.  They can learn to make it less black & white / right & wrong. 

As @Batya33 pointed out sometimes voice helps because tone & non-verbal cues can often do more to smooth a rough spot than words.  Over 90% of communication is non-verbal.  

When my husband & I first got together if I was upset, he'd  try to talk me through the problem logically.  I didn't want that.  I wanted a hug & a shoulder to cry on.  I had to purge the emotions before I could be open to a logical resolution but not at 1st.  To this day he doesn't understand why a hug helps but he learned to give me the hug.  

[Kwothe28]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

So it's not enough to say "be empathetic."  How can someone be empathetic when they're not?  

Can it be learned?  Taught?  I honestly don't know. 

Yes, it can be learned. But sadly, in OPs case, he cant learn that. As NPD are unable to do such thing. However, he can learn to "fake it". For example, its not hard to say to somebody "Sorry for your loss" after they lose somebody. Maybe he cant learn empathy. But he can learn reactions, even if they are not genuine.

Anyway, wanted to reflect on this

20 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

that’s when I eventually wrote her an email being vulnerable and realizing my part in all of this. I wish she would have responded telling me she’s sorry but her stance is firm. No. Instead I get a response saying how much she appreciates hearing this from me and to please allow her some time to respond. 
 

but now it’s been like 2 weeks. On one hand I’m trying not to continue on in my bad habits making it about me and my feelings. Because it can’t be all about me and my needs.  But on the other hand there’s reality. No response is a response.  Or even just her dragging it out.  Why drag it out just to reject me later on. I wish she would have just rejected me when she responded. 

I dont think email was necessary. You maybe did it because your friend told you that your answers sounded cold, but dont think you would get better response. She was clear with "break". Maybe you want more clarifications or some "closure". But sadly, not just in your case but in a lot of them, closure is something we have to give to ourselves sometimes. Because the other side wont. Take her lack of response as a response. I dont think you would get better clarification of things. Sometimes we just dont.

Also, again, things are rarely black and white. This is not just on you. She maybe wont own her part. And just give you how you are this and that. Some people lack accountability for their actions. Its best to accept that you were not good for each other. And that you did try, but failed. And to move on. Again, maybe in time after you better yourself, some better opportunity comes along. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

2 hours ago, TeeDee said:

Perception is reality.  

So if you said X but your partner understood Y, they only perceive Y.  If Y hurts them they will be upset.  For you to say I didn't mean Y & put the blame on them for misunderstanding your failure to be empathetic toward their pain only hurts them worse.  It's like pouring salt in the wound. 

Very true. I had to really sit with myself and put myself on the other side of the equation and remember times I’ve felt hurt when I was trying to be vulnerable and say “I’m hurt” and someone dismissed that. But here I am doing it to someone else so casually.  Like I keep saying, I’m not throwing a pity party for myself but the more I write about this experience the more I applaud her for removing herself. 
 

2 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

So it's not enough to say "be empathetic."  How can someone be empathetic when they're not?  

Can it be learned?  Taught?  I honestly don't know. 

It can be taught. And I’m way more empathetic now than I’ve ever been in the past. How I got there? Allowing myself to hurt and feel pain. That connected me to other people’s pain.  It took years and years for me to actually deconstruct myself enough to feel… but I can feel now. And I do have a decent sized capacity to feel bad for others, case in point. I feel horrible for how I treated her

 

the issue is… people who have NPD or the like tend to play by rules. We learned our own set of rules which are always geared towards protecting self. This doesn’t work in interpersonal relationships. But then no one is around to teach us those tools as adults.
 

Phrases like “be empathetic,” or “think before speaking” are intended to be helpful, ya, but they don’t mean much when someone isn’t sure exactly what “being empathetic” in a particular situation may look like. And thinking before I speak? Again… I’d need some other catchphrases to pool from… because all I have is what I have. So of course the things I say I do THINK they are ok. But they’re obviously not. Me personally, as I seek these answers and obtain them, being more kind and empathetic becomes more natural. Because I’m now able to understand a new piece of the puzzle. 
 

The studies show that in a narcissist they do have the “empathy” area of the brain lit up on scans. It’s just dull. With practice and dismantling core wounds it can be built up. It takes time and work. I’ve changed a lot and I’m going to continue to put work into this 

[NighttimeNightmare]

26 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

But sadly, in OPs case, he cant learn that.

This isn’t true. I’ve already learned and been able to apply empathy in many areas of my life. I struggle with the communication aspects, as I’ve never learned those things before. 
 

26 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

However, he can learn to "fake it".

Well for one, in therapy they actually give you the verbal tools initially. You can call this “faking it” because sure, at first you’re just learning going through the motions. But it’s a gateway into empathy because you’re roleplaying it and putting yourself in movement. Movements you’ve never had before 

But me, now? Im not faking it. Lol. There are people who I truly care for, and truly feel pain for on their behalf, I am able to put myself aside and help people out of compassion.  
 

I don’t have any desire to “fake” being kind or nice. I don’t care about most people enough to bother with that esp when I don’t think I’m doing anything wrong 

but do I have empathy? Yes. it flourishes most in connections that feel very safe for me 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, TeeDee said:

The person doesn't necessarily have to feel the empathy.  They have to say words -- words that can be learned -- acknowledging that the other person somehow got hurt. 

So if I'm reading this^^ correctly, they don't have to actually feel empathy but simply act like feel they it?

IOW pretend they're empathetic?  Go through the motions of being empathetic to make the other person feel heard and validated? 

I don't know, I'm just asking.

But if so, it's what I posted earlier and I believe it's what many narcissists and sociopaths do in order to have successful relationships, to get along with people and get on in the world. 

Necessary but a bit disingenuous too imo. 

I honestly don't have the answer to this.  

But yes "acting" and "pretending" to feel something they don't innately feel can certainly be learned by observing others, reading books about human behavior and interpersonal relationships, among others ways. 

 

 

 

[Jaunty]

11 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

 My communication was based on protecting my own turf and defending my intent.  I thought that was the correct way to do things.  So whenever I made her feel bad about herself and she’d tell me, I just argued instead of reassuring her 

 

I'm very sorry you've had to learn the very hard way, but I do think you understand.    

Since the other party is not here, we can't get their side - but I suspect that both of you were on the defensive to some extent.  This is not a good place to start for effective communication.

A couple of your word choices here give me this impression, especially with you using the word "defending."  

On the other hand, maybe she has said that YOU "made" her feel bad about something because of how you spoke to her when she had a concern she wanted to bring to the table.

This is probably old news to you, but the best way for this to be done is by the person with the grievance to bring it up with "I" statements rather than "YOU" statements.

So it would possibly be less likely to trigger your defensiveness if she were to say "I feel like blah blah blah when you speak to me like blah blah blah" instead of "you made me feel ..." and so on.  

But, she is not here.  And bottom line, to be very frank, if she was feeling pretty bad a lot of the time because of the way you spoke to her, it was probably really not a good situation for her to remain in.  

Another choice of words I noticed of yours that gave me pause was when you wrote that you would tend to speak a certain way when you wanted to get someone to "listen" or "change."  

Please really understand that being forceful in any way is not going to promote "listening."  Also, that "listening" and "agreeing" with you or doing what you'd like them to do are not the same thing.

As far as getting someone to change ... good luck.   I do not believe that it can be done.  Yes indeed.   People can and do change all the time and often because they want to improve or even save a relationship.  But they will have done this for their own benefit after all is said and done - because they want the desired and hoped for outcome.  

A person speaking forcefully, demanding, entreating, or anything like that will not make another person change.  

Change is very hard.  Most of us here, including you and I, have probably already learned this for ourselves ... the hard way.

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, TeeDee said:

For you to say I didn't mean Y & put the blame on them for misunderstanding your failure to be empathetic toward their pain only hurts them worse.  It's like pouring salt in the wound. 

Yes, exactly. I had to learn this the hard way. When I was younger, 'defense mode' was an always-ON button for me, and proving that I was 'right' was the only way I knew how to resolve a problem. This might work well in academia to argue a theory, but in life, we can either learn to value relationships, or not.

18 minutes ago, TeeDee said:

The person doesn't necessarily have to feel the empathy.  They have to say words -- words that can be learned -- acknowledging that the other person somehow got hurt.  They can learn to make it less black & white / right & wrong. 

Yes. Learning can be based on completely rational decisions if you plug in the right desired outcomes. AI and machine learning can prove this. If the goal is merely to appear righteous and 'win' an argument, then there we are--small goal, small win. But if cultivating relationships becomes the desired goal, then rational--even binary--steps can produce THAT goal.

The good news about being human is that our emotional rewards for learning the most advantageous steps in nurturing relationships can become our driver. Whether that can lead to authentic empathy is open to question, but rewarding outcomes are what they are. We each get to decide how we'll benefit from those.

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, TeeDee said:

The person doesn't necessarily have to feel the empathy.  They have to say words -- words that can be learned -- acknowledging that the other person somehow got hurt.  They can learn to make it less black & white / right & wrong. 

I’ve seen this with sociopaths. They say they have no empathy at all and play strictly by a set of rules wherein they aren’t harming anyone. Personally, I respect it. If someone’s empathy slate is completely blank, this is a great workaround. A great way of life for them

and I said in another comment, in therapy for myself, I also was taught .. or shown… better ways to behave or approach situations. Yes at first it feels robotic. And that could be what some mean by “faking it,” because you’re reverse engineering what may come naturally to those with a solid stack of empathy. But once you move through those motions, it’s like you gain new vision. And then you do begin to feel empathy through those new lenses; you start to discard your old ones. 
 

example, when I started to play out the motions of being collaborative in my behaviors… mutuality…. It was ROUGH. Things like compromise. It was so difficult. I didn’t naturally want to do that. But over time I saw the other persons behavior change. They were happier. Easier to get along with. And it made me feel good. For myself, and for them. Over time it became natural, I can’t imagine not operating in mutuality anymore. It feels nice, it works, and it hurts to harm someone. That’s having empathy. 
 

so yes empathy can be grown via the right approach and tools. 

[rainbowsandroses]

25 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Yes it can be taught. And I’m way more empathetic now than I’ve ever been in the past. How I got there? Allowing myself to hurt and feel pain. That connected me to other people’s pain.  It took years and years for me to actually deconstruct myself enough to feel… but I can feel now. And I do have a decent sized capacity to feel bad for others, case in point. I feel horrible for how I treated her

^^ Awesome, NN!   

Thank you for posting that, I honestly didn't know if empathy could be taught.

Acting empathetic, yes but not actually feeling it from your heart.

It's nice to hear it can!  😂

 

 

 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

12 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

Another choice of words I noticed of yours that gave me pause was when you wrote that you would tend to speak a certain way when you wanted to get someone to "listen" or "change."  

Out of curiosity, do you remember off hand what you read that gave the impression I wanted someone to change? 
 

Not being snarky, as you can’t hear my tone. I’m just curious because I’m wondering what I’m doing or saying that could be perceived like that. As for me, I feel I’m naturally strongly against asking for someone to change. 
 

anyway, always enjoyed your posts on here and I appreciate your comment and am taking it and learning from all of this. 

[catfeeder]

7 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Yes at first it feels robotic. And that could be what some mean by “faking it,” because you’re reverse engineering what may come naturally to those with a solid stack of empathy. But once you move through those motions, it’s like you gain new vision. And then you do begin to feel empathy through those new lenses; you start to discard your old ones. 

Exactly! Remember, defenses are also emotionally driven.

We tend to believe that those who don't 'feel' a certain way can't learn the subtleties of cooperative and encouraging behaviors, but if we were to break the goal down into an (unemotional) AI feed, say, "...an outcome that benefits both parties and preserves the relationship..." as opposed to "...an intellectual win at all costs..." then the steps change, and there will likely be more of them, but they can still be successfully learned.

So when a human does this, we also experience the equivalent of machine learning PLUS the benefits of emotion--to whatever degree we are capable of being tapped there. So the reward might generate, say, a +8 on a 10 point scale for an empathetic learner, while the same reward might register only a +5 or +6 for someone who lacks empathy--but it's still a reward, it's still a desired outcome, AND the new steps themselves can create the synapses that produce desired emotions.

Keep going, NN! Allow this likely temporary setback to teach you what it can, and also allow for the fact that GF is learning from this, too. She may be able to overcome her initial upset to consider the longer range and the bigger picture. Head high.