Is it partially a partner’s responsibility to interpret correctly what is said?

[NighttimeNightmare]

6 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Use this period to better yourself. So maybe next time you wont repeat the same with somebody who would be for you. 

That’s what I’m doing. That’s why I tried not to make this post about her.  I’m trying to learn skills. My conversations with her can be an example, but this is about me and for me. 
 

and personally, I think most people should be in therapy at least once in their life. It’s not just for “damaged” people. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

3 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Instead of asking a question like "Did we receive Xxxxx's check yet"?

He'd say in an annoyed condescending tone "Didn't we receive Xxxxx's check?  Where is it"?

Lmao. This is me!

3 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

After some time, I got to know his style so didn't take it personally but boy did it irritates me sometimes!

So why can’t I say this to a partner? Why doesn’t it work? “You should know me, you know I don’t think you’re stupid. This is just how I talk. You should be able to decode that without getting hurt”

[ShySoul]

44 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

but I’m beginning to realize that sometimes just being vulnerable/open about your feelings towards someone who has shown up for you, is needed, and that doesn’t classify it as begging someone to stay.  I’m just talking about being vulnerable and being willing to share your feelings when you’re unsure of someone else’s. So after a month of introspection, I wrote her an email apologizing. Told her what she means to me, and how I’ve lacked empathy in a lot of my responses to her.  That I take responsibility for my part in the way I communicate. Etc etc.  

Sorry you're going through this. I've been hoping things had worked out for you. 😢

Everything you just wrote is a sign of growth and maturity. It is taking responsibilty and showing her compassion and empathy, respecting her feelings. It's not easy. Owning up to mistakes can be a challenge. Be proud of yourself for taking this step and allowing yourself to be vulnerable.

Have to go but I'll check in late. Take care.

[NighttimeNightmare]

19 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

When two people who have various issues find themselves, those issues come to surface after some time. After "honeymoon period", the relationship starts to define itself. You two just maybe werent for each other.

Not sure how to edit my other response to include this. But I wanted to comment on this:

so I’ve had this thought. People come and go. That’s fine. But by this logic it’s like.. who is “right” for me?  Who is “right” for an unempathetic narcissist? 
 

I mean… I can think back in my life and remember some amazing, amazing people, that I lost due to my lack of empathy. It keeps happening. Over and over. 
 

I feel like at some point I’ve gotta stop saying “they’re the wrong person for me” and start framing it as “a lack of empathy is wrong for any successful relationship. “
 

for me, and what I’m experiencing personally, it feels as though the longer I say “eh that just wasn’t the right person” I’m convincing myself that I gotta find someone who has no backbone and let’s me walk all over them and just never feels anything. Or like I said in my OP - someone who makes it their responsibility to not get hurt by my words.  And that’s exactly what I was contemplating when I made this post: “Maybe I just have to find a woman wherein I can speak however I want, and the onus is on her to understand “what I really meant!””

but I’m just not convinced of that anymore. like damn, how many women do I have to go through to realize they alllll have the same complaint. And I’m really good at convincing onlookers that they're just hyper-dramatic or “crazy” - not on purpose, I actually believed that. But again, it’s the lack of empathy playing out IMO. 

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Looking back, I had 0 empathy (not on purpose) and just barked an order at her 

NN, I think it's great you're aware you lack empathy, that's a positive.

The negative is that I never thought empathy can be learned or taught, we either posses empathy or we don't. 

Many people pretend they have empathy, they're observant and know how to go through the motions for the sake of the relationship or to get on in the world, but it's disingenuous because they're just not feeling it. 

That said, my sense is that you DO have empathy at least on some level because you DO understand her feelings to a certain extent, but this is new to you and you haven't tapped into it all the way yet. 

However it is possible you are emotionally incompatible and here's why I think that.

12 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

my partner told me she was going to sign up for a class. I respond with “ok make sure you sign up for xyz,” she gets mad and proceeds to tell me that I make her feel stupid, like she’s doing everything wrong...

NN, what you said would NOT have bothered ME, hurt me or made me feel stupid and I mean that sincerely!

I would have taken it in a completely different way than she did!  

I don't even think it sounds condescending not like my previous boss's words and tone did..

Yes it does sound a bit demanding but just from this forum, I know you well enough to know your intention for saying it was to be helpful and because you cared.  Even if I didn't know you, I'd think that. 

And what's really interesting is that I am diagnosed HSP (highly sensitive person)! 

So don't know maybe you are choosing the wrong type of women for you.  

You have posted about her previously and I always had the sense you were both extremely strong willed and your personalities clashed. 

The attraction is there but you don't complement each other or bring out the best in each other. 

And her criticisms are bringing you down and causing you to question yourself now.

Anyway I think it's great you're introspecting about all this but maybe give yourself a bit of a break? 

I actually think you're fine, you're become aware and learning as we all are on this amazing journey called life. 

JMO.

😀

 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

4 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

NN, what you said would NOT have bothered ME, hurt me or made me feel stupid and I mean that sincerely!

Maybe. Maybe not. You can’t hear my tone, or the events that led up to that ya know? I didn’t say it was a suggestion. I don’t even think what I typed out here is what I actually said. I remember being super annoyed and it was sort of like “just do xyz and get it over with!!” type of a vibe.  Even my own sister tells me the way I speak to her is ***ed up and she doesn’t know why she talks to me. It was only a matter of time 

6 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

So don't know maybe you are choosing the wrong type of women for you.  

Maybe. But I’m not convinced.  Even platonic friends try to get me to see “how I am” because they’re concerned for me. Lol 

7 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

The attraction is there but you don't complement each other, bring out the best in each other

This one I’ll disagree with. Though onlookers are free to form their own opinions, this includes you. It is what it is 

I think I’ve always had strong internalized responses to things. Even small things.  I hold it in but I’ve found forum boards help me to try to express those feelings. Little things feel very big for me. Even the most chill person eventually gets broken down by me 

example: my sister is suuuper passive and recently she’s been admitting to me that my way of being, speaking, etc has ***ed her up in some ways. And she’s had to retrain herself that it’s not “normal”

10 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

And her criticisms are bringing you down and causing you to question yourself now

I wouldn’t call them criticisms. She’s never like went in on me. She just gets sad and tries to tell me how I’m hurting her. I just don’t “see” it and I get overly logical about it. 
 

this really has very little to do with her because I have this issue historically. With EVERYONE. 

I’ve had this issue well before her, and if I don’t treat it, I’ll have it well after her. That’s the truth. 
 

im so tired of blaming the women in my life and then I eventually meet someone else and the same thing happens. Then I have an intervention where all my friends tell me I treat them the same

So who is the issue here??

one of my closest friends had a heart to heart and actually told me that I’ve grown so much since meeting this person and that she’s super worried about the way I interact  And this isn’t an internet friend it’s someone who has watched both of us interact on numerous occasions  

im not kicking myself or feeling sorry for myself lol. I’m just tired of dodging my part in things and telling myself “that person was crazy/hyper dramatic” etc etc when therapists, friends, family, all have or note, these patterned issues that I have. 
 

14 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

That said, my sense is that you DO have empathy on some level because you DO understand her feelings to a certain extent, but this is new to you and you haven't tapped into it all the way yet.

Ya from the studies I’ve read, narcissists do have empathy but it’s weak. They can learn and those areas of the brain become stronger.  That’s what I’m trying to do 

[NighttimeNightmare]

45 minutes ago, ShySoul said:

Everything you just wrote is a sign of growth and maturity. It is taking responsibilty and showing her compassion and empathy, respecting her feelings. It's not easy. Owning up to mistakes can be a challenge. Be proud of yourself for taking this step and allowing yourself to be vulnerable

Thank you! I actually feel pretty good about myself for being able to write that letter and form those thoughts. It shows that it’s in me, I just need to practice bringing it to the surface in daily conversation 

[rainbowsandroses]

12 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

You can’t hear my tone, or the events that led up to that ya know? I didn’t say it was a suggestion. I don’t even think what I typed out here is what I actually said

That's very true. I just took your words at face value without knowing tone or events that led up to it. 

12 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I don’t even think what I typed out here is what I actually said. I remember being super annoyed and it was sort of like “just do xyz and get it over with!!” type of a vibe.

Okay well hell yeah, this^ is completely different from what you first posted.  And yes that would have bothered me!

12 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I'm so tired of blaming the women in my life...

Again it's good you're looking within and owning your role however sometimes it's not about blame or who's wrong or right. 

Sometimes two people are simply not the right fit however since this apparently happens with everyone, it's good you're exploring this within yourself and again owning your role.

Good luck NN and I'm sorry this relationship doesn't seem to be working out. 😞

 

[Kwothe28]

38 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

so I’ve had this thought. People come and go. That’s fine. But by this logic it’s like.. who is “right” for me?  Who is “right” for an unempathetic narcissist? 

I mean, my father was married 2 times and has 3 kids. Both my mom and my stepmom left him. My Grandpa(his dad) even told him once during argument "If you arent like you are, your two wives wouldnt walk away from you". Grandpa wasnt a Saint either, but he was one of those characters who didnt really beat around the bush and was right for a lot of stuff.

Woman I came to this Forum for advice, I think she is a narcissist too. She is also a psychologist. But I think she also accepted she is not for relationships. She lives a nice life otherwise. Good job, bought apartment, travels. I have no contact but she is a friend of a friend so I get updates sometimes whether I want them or not.

Anyway, there is no "cure" for what you have. It is difficult to have a genuine and loving connection with somebody who has NPD. But there is hope. Provided that you are aware and learn some stuff. So you might find somebody who you can share your life with.

Quote

Relationships that survive will rely on the partner having good self-esteem, strong boundaries, resources that are valued by the narcissist, patience, an even-tempered personality, and a reason to stay. Over time, your self-esteem will need good reinforcement from other parts of your life, like work or friends, to be maintained.

The success of the relationship will also depend on your partner being able to learn to respond well to your feedback. They may not respond with empathy and understanding at first, but if they can eventually acknowledge your requests in some way, then that signals some hope for the relationship.

I think with some help, you can get there. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

6 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I mean, my father was married 2 times and has 3 kids. Both my mom and my stepmom left him. My Grandpa(his dad) even told him once during argument "If you arent like you are, your two wives wouldnt walk away from you".

Ya 😕 this is the thing.. it sounds harsh but it’s true. Like eventually one has gotta look back at their relationship patterns and be honest about them. 
 

sad thing is, it’s easy to not care. It’s easy to convince oneself it’s “everyone else.” 
 

and for me, it’s almost like I don’t “get it” until I feel a loss. A really strong boundary has to be put up for it to “click” in my brain 
 

like in my case, she tried to sit with me and express her concerns several times.  I don’t think I took them seriously enough. Now here we are. 
 

id like to get to the point where someone sitting down and talking “nicely” to me about things is enough. But it appears as of now, I need big movements to ‘wake up’ and do something about it. That’s not rly fair to the person on the receiving end 

 

16 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I think with some help, you can get there

Thanks. I think I can too 

[rainbowsandroses]

19 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I would like to get to the point where someone sitting down and talking “nicely” to me about things is enough. But it appears as of now, I need big movements to ‘wake up’ and do something about it. That’s not rly fair to the person on the receiving end.

^^^ This is quite insightful imo and true for many men (and women), not just unempathetic narcissists.

Personally I've never been one for sitting down and discussing "nicely, I mean on the surface it sounds like a lovely idea, however in my experience it doesn't inspire change or movement.

I've posted about this recently but like you said many people need big movement or action like their partner distancing or a break up to actually inspire them into looking within and making changes.

As you said "wake them up."

Not sure why that is but it's been true in every single relationship I've ever had and not all my relationships were with narcissists.

[NighttimeNightmare]

18 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Personally I've never been one for sitting down and discussing "nicely, I mean on the surface it sounds like a lovely idea, however in my experience it doesn't inspire change or movement.

I've posted about this recently but like you said many people need big movement or action like distancing or a break up to actually inspire them into looking within and making changes.

As you said "wake them up."

Not sure why that is but it's been true in every single relationship I've ever had and not all my relationships were with narcissists

That’s true. Come to think of it I’ve had to basically “yell” at people to get them to listen or change. And they definitely weren’t disordered. 
 

kind of scary, I don’t rly want to be one of those people. It also sucks that I’ve hurt people to come to these realizations 

[Jaunty]

I don't think there is much value in thinking about how it's the other person's "responsibility" to understand my intent or meaning. 

To your example of "be sure to sign up for xy & z":  This reminds me of the common phenomenon knows as "mansplaining."  It happens a lot.  Not only men do it, but I can confidently say that most practitioners of "mansplaining" are men.   And mostly the people on the receiving end are women.

It seems like "talking down" to the person who's getting the mansplaining.   

Maybe it hurts her feelings or maybe it does not, but it is not an effective or positive way to communicate - that's almost for certain.   

So the "mansplainer" would be responsible for learning how to communicate without doing that, regardless of how his partner feels about it.   

The onus would be on him.

[rainbowsandroses]

12 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Come to think of it I’ve had to basically “yell” at people to get them to listen or change. 

^^Personally I do not believe in yelling or even getting angry.  In my experience that accomplishes nothing. 

For some people it may work to inspire movement, it's never worked well for me plus it's not in my nature to yell anyway.

I just quietly distance. Gives people an opportunity to reflect on their actions, and if they care, make changes. 

It's also worked when I have been the one who behaved poorly and my boyfriends distanced themselves from me.

Typically after taking distance and reflecting, when we reconnect, that is when we talk. 

 

 

[Andrina]

Perhaps stop giving advice unless asked. Many a time, when women are speaking of a complaint, they don't want to hear the solution from you. They want a supportive ear. You can just ask questions to get more details about the story to show your interest, and then just say empathetic things like, "I can see why you feel horrible after that person spoke to you like that."

If a partner makes a mistake by signing up for the wrong thing, then let them be mad at themselves instead of being mad at you.

I know I have gotten mad at my husband because he always thinks his way is the better way, like loading the dishwasher and he will move things around, changing the way I did it. There've been times I've not said anything at the time until a build up of too many suggestions to me about how I should do things makes me blow and then I speak up more harshly than intended. But I wouldn't end a relationship over what to me is an occasional irritation of being around another imperfect person, as I've got my own issues like having a short temper over particular things.

So maybe you come across as a know-it-all and the repetition is too regular. I'm sorry you were disappointed at how this played out with your lady love. Good luck in improving your communication skills.

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I don’t know if I can learn to communicate better. That’s the thing. I mean… I’m not sure it’s a communication issue anymore as I sit and think. And I’ve been thinking about this for nearly 2 months now. 

With this particular woman do these issues come up mostly in person? Text? Phone?

[Batya33]

The late Dr. Joy Browne used to say "be curious not furious." My brilliant husband sometimes will make a suggestion about a situation that to me lacks common sense or is impractical.  Sometimes it is about a parenting thing or sometimes about a work situation he has or whatever.  I take the curious not furious tack and I will say in a very diplomatic tone "why do you think that is the good way to go about it" or something like that- Then I shut up and listen to how he arrived at that suggestion.  He is willing to share because I've approached him with an open ended question that doesn't imply that I think his suggestion isn't a good one - it's simply neutrally information seeking in an open friendly way.  But if I said instead "what? no that would never work - you know that right - what made you think it would" (or even something less -confrontational) -obviously he'd get defensive or shut down. 

I tend to be impatient especially when I'm rushed and when I remind myself to phrase it that way and with that tone I very often realize why he thought that could work and/or realize I didn't understand his suggestion completely.

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, Jaunty said:

So the "mansplainer" would be responsible for learning how to communicate without doing that, regardless of how his partner feels about it.   

Yes, exactly. Back to my earlier point. Phrases like, "You should..." or "Make sure you..." convey doubt about a person's ability to navigate, and it drives some people bonkers.

Is bonkers okay? No. But is the language okay? Maybe for a parent to a child or a boss to a subordinate, but even then it's questionable if you want to encourage the agency and autonomy of the person with whom you're dealing. But between equals? It's condescending.

So whether you own actual empathy or not, you're still able to learn that condescending phrases and tones don't bring out the best in people, and they can harm your relationships. 

Head high, we all learn through living.

[catfeeder]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

The late Dr. Joy Browne used to say "be curious not furious."

Yes! This isn't about making someone else 'wrong' OR yourself 'wrong,' it's about learning how to converse without offending even while your intent isn't to pit someone as your adversary. So don't behave like one!

We all mess up. That's a law of humanity, kind of. So when we offend someone we care about, what's so hard about saying, "I'm really sorry that I said that badly. Can you help me figure out a better way to say it?"

It's not a personality flaw, it's communication.

[NighttimeNightmare]

11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

With this particular woman do these issues come up mostly in person? Text? Phone?

All 3. But different categories of things. I’d say moreso over txt and way less likely in person. 
 

id say the misunderstandings where she feels I’m not empathetic are usually over txt because I can’t see or hear her. So I don’t know what’s going on 

example: one of the last times we txtd she sent me a random txt. With no context. I thought it was kind of funny and did the “haha” iMessage response to it. She got hurt by that and told me why am I laughing when she’s scared/worried 

here is where I messed up. I should have picked up the phone and called and tended to her. 

but what I did was very different. I snapped and was sort of like “how was I supposed to know you were scared?!” because I felt like she was  acting like I can’t do anything right, like I’m just supposed to know she was asking for comfort.  Partly, that’s true. But I think it’s in how I’m responding that’s the issue for her. She’s never seemed to be upset I didn’t realize or understand something, it seems to be in how I resolve a lot of it. In this case, I shouldn’t have turned it into a defense. I should have called her and checked if she was ok. 
 

But I’ve done it on the phone, too. And in person.  Like the therapy convo, I look back and realize she didn’t want a lecture. She wanted support. And then when she tried to explain that to me I just got annoyed.. feeling defensive. Once again thinking I’m right and she’s wrong. Which is a big complaint she has against me 
 

Why couldn’t I have just given her support? She’s not being elusive. She tells me clearly if she’s hurt or scared or wants my support.  So I don’t understand myself there. I mean… I’m realizing it all NOW. I’m starting to see it 

what’s even more odd to me is that in my txt example where I said to her “how was I supposed to know you were hurt?!” It’s hypocritical right. Because in that scenario I expect HER to relay that to me, to feed me that info on a spoon. But yet when tables are turned I feel she needs to spoon feed herself and just “understand me” without me having to explain.   So I’ve found a double standard here. I want her to decode what I’m saying, but I don’t want to decode what she’s saying. I also don’t want her to get hurt by anything she decodes wrong, yet I get hurt and agitated by things I’ve decoded wrong. So on top of everything, I’ve added “hypocrite” to the arsenal. 
 

I don’t blame her for no longer entrusting me to be able to handle her emotions with care 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

All 3. But different categories of things. I’d say moreso over txt and way less likely in person. 
 

Given your particular communication issues I'd avoid texting like the plague -I know you two did this a lot before you started being involved but with how you described your issues text is going to make it worse.  

[NighttimeNightmare]

16 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

Yes, exactly. Back to my earlier point. Phrases like, "Your should..." or "Make sure you..." convey doubt about a person's ability to navigate, and it drives some people bonkers.

I get it. I mean, I would have nothing to do with someone who was talking to me like that. I can make my own decisions 

I guess I can learn to replace those phrases with things like “have you considered xyz?”

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I get it. I mean, I would have nothing to do with someone who was talking to me like that. I can make my own decisions 

I guess I can learn to replace those phrases with things like “have you considered xyz?”

It's also about learning why this is a more effective way to deal with people.  To help people feel comfortable in their own skin around you.  Some of it is word choice and some is tone choice but if you really care about the person and care about being close more than being right then it really does come naturally. In the example I gave I've learned humility -sure I might be internally like "what? how could that ever work, what he suggested" and then reminding myself he might feel the same about some of my suggestions and that I may have misheard or lacked context which I will then get if I treat him with respect and in an open minded way.

[catfeeder]

1 minute ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I get it. I mean, I would have nothing to do with someone who was talking to me like that. I can make my own decisions 

I guess I can learn to replace those phrases with things like “have you considered xyz?”

Yeah...maybe, but that still sounds like a question of judgment, like, "I DOUBT you've considered this..." or "You probably missed THIS..."

How about, "Are you willing to consider whether...?" or, "You may want to consider..."? or even, "May I suggest something?"

Also, I caught what you've said above about texts... maybe just say, "Can you please tell me whether you're being serious or making a joke?"

Good on you for trying your best, NN. She must mean a lot to you.

[catfeeder]

33 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

[Regarding, "You should..." or "Make sure you..."] I get it. I mean, I would have nothing to do with someone who was talking to me like that. I can make my own decisions 

Of course you can, even as we've all encountered these phrases over the course of our lives without offense. So it's like a giant record scratch if someone bristles, and I get that. It's just about learning something important to them rather than making ourselves 'wrong'.

Don't you, as with most of us, usually deal with people without an intent to offend? So it's reasonable and even automatic to assume that most people are dealing with us with the same intent--to make a point that has nothing to do with trying to offend us, personally.

But then, boom! We land in territory where someone reacts as though we've launched a personal attack, and guess what? Their 'shame' speaks directly to our 'shame,' and there we are, in the toxic territory of defense. We ALL have gone there, it's not a personality flaw in you.

So your openness to picking up a few ways to tweak your speech that might be helpful in this relationship is admirable. But it's not going to make-or-break your relationship. Sometimes the closest people to us are just in the mood to take us for granted or to vent or to cast us as horrible. We don't need to find a villain in that. It's not an all-or-nothing field of blame. We can pull back and check in whether we can resume some normalcy later, or we can just leave the whole this alone to learn whether it will self-correct.