Cannot understand why she wants a relationship but not intimacy

[Zeus131313]

We are both in our 50s and have been in a long distance dating situation since April. Every month she travels to see me and for the first 3 times she has been staying in a hotel and we were meeting for dates both day and night. The last time we stayed together for 1 night although nothing happened.

We get on really well. We talk and laugh and have fun continuously staying up talking till 5am sometimes. She refers to me as her boyfriend and has spoken openly about me to her friends and family. She has met and spoken to some of my friends again referring to herself as my girlfriend.

When we go for dinner or drinks we walk holding hands and she is tender and loving

This time we have vacationed for 10 days and slept on the same bed. We slept cuddling and holding each other but she rejected my initial advances of making out.

Considering how well we get on and that she considers us to be a couple I cannot understand why she does not want to be intimate.

I am good looking apparently and have a very successful professional career which gives me a comfortable lifestyle.

When we are not together and are at our separate cities we message maybe 20 times per day and we call at every opportunity,. Every night we talk on the phone until we are asleep. It is all romantic and nothing shows that i am being friend zoned

What should I do? When I voiced my questions she said that because she is a very intense person she has very intense feelings and needs to be certain.  However we are not kids and both have pasts

[DarkCh0c0]

41 minutes ago, Zeus131313 said:

What should I do? When I voiced my questions she said that because she is a very intense person she has very intense feelings and needs to be certain.  However we are not kids and both have pasts

So she asked for some time? Is that it?

If so, how long are you okay with waiting?

[Zeus131313]

15 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

So she asked for some time? Is that it?

If so, how long are you okay with waiting?

No she didn't ask for time.  It was implied that she would make it known when she was certain / ready.  Here lies the issue - I am really in love with her and I think she maybe the one.  However, I cannot understand how when we are a couple we can sleep together but not even make out?  No matter how much she wants to take it slow i cannot see why...

[Andrina]

1 hour ago, Zeus131313 said:

The last time we stayed together for 1 night although nothing happened.

Well, I guess there is some progression, anyway. Since everything else is going well, and she's making the effort to travel your way every time, in your shoes I'd have an unspoken deadline of how long I'd put up with the strange delay of kissing. Let's say you're giving it 3 more visits. (Wherein I would let her take the lead in affection and not attempt to kiss her again). If she hasn't spoken of wanting to kiss by that point, I'd say: I feel like we know all we need to know at this stage, pointing to a good chance at a successful longterm relationship with you. How do you feel?

If she agrees but doesn't mention progressing this to kissing, you can say: Kissing is necessary for me to go to a deeper level into a connection with you. If you aren't ready after more than half of a year spent together, this won't work for me.

I believe this is a reasonable expectation. If she won't engage in this normal, affectionate way, after so much time together, then her hangups are too egregious to move on from a dead end.

[Zeus131313]

12 minutes ago, Andrina said:

Well, I guess there is some progression, anyway. Since everything else is going well, and she's making the effort to travel your way every time, in your shoes I'd have an unspoken deadline of how long I'd put up with the strange delay of kissing. Let's say you're giving it 3 more visits. (Wherein I would let her take the lead in affection and not attempt to kiss her again). If she hasn't spoken of wanting to kiss by that point, I'd say: I feel like we need to know all we need to know at this stage, pointing to a good chance at a successful longterm relationship with you. How do you feel?

If she agrees but doesn't mention progressing this to kissing, you can say: Kissing is necessary for me to go to a deeper level into a connection with you. If you aren't ready after more than half of a year spent together, this won't work for me.

I believe this is a reasonable expectation. If she won't engage in this normal, affectionate way, after so much time together, then her hangups are too egregious to move on from a dead end.

Thank you for your advice.  The thing that amazes me is that she has a life, a profession, many friends, family etc and yet she always takes time to message me 20 times a day minimum, call me at every possible moment she can, call me to make sure I got up in the morning and so much more.  She talks about the future, about being old together, about our little odd habits and so much more.

However, once we go to bed we cuddle and hold and she snuggles up to me and hold me tight, she does not respond to any kind of make out move.  She does not say no but is totally unresponsive which is obviously a stop sign in itself.

It is not the lack of sex because that is not a dealbreaker at this stage, but it is the lack of even the most basic make out that makes me wonder whether she actually does want me and I am not just a "nice guy" safe option to grow old with

[Coily]

1 hour ago, Zeus131313 said:

This time we have vacationed for 10 days and slept on the same bed. We slept cuddling and holding each other but she rejected my initial advances of making out.

If she wasn't willing to kiss by the end of 10 days in such an intimate setting, I'm not even talking about mild friskiness.While long distance has a bit of a stuttery progression, I would be put off by 10 days together. That is an intense amount of time together. If that wasn't the spark for even passionate kisses...You are 50 , not 15.  Unless she's a virgin, super super religious (nearly a nun) and waiting for marriage; there is something creepy off about her.

Personally I'd be done. I would feel that I was being used or manipulated for some questionable purpose.

What I'd recommend is having a frank and compassionate conversation with her. Bring up your concerns/disappointment about the lack of kissing; see how she reacts. See if her answers are acceptable, maybe she had some trauma or such; But leaving you in the dark like this is unfair.

 

[Andrina]

If this works out, what is the plan for closing the distance? I'm assuming the distance isn't all too far, since she can afford doing all this traveling. If she willing to move your way and sought out or accepted a long distance connection, I'm wondering why if she has a full life with a good career and a big support group where she lives. What is her relationship history? No citizenship changes would have to be made with this union if marriage is the goal, would it? Has she made excuses for you to not go her way, possibly not wanting you to see the reality of her life where she lives?

 

[Batya33]

I am in my 50s and  this situation would not work for me now or back when I was dating up to age 39 (when I started dating my future husband long distance for a lot of the time and exclusively).  In my late 20s I met a man in his late 20s.  He was serious minded and  really into me at the beginning. He wanted to stay over on the third date so he wouldn't have to drive home a long distance and I lived in a really fun neighborhood.  We both said -no sex - and he knew I had a studio apartment.  One bed.  One couch.  He indicated we should share the bed. 

However all of a sudden when I got into bed -fully dressed, him as well -he was horrified that I would even think of cuddling.  I don't think we had really kissed yet.  He was visibly nervous and anxious.  I was turned off and found this really odd.  He'd also asked a separate time if his younger sister who I'd met once could crash at my place after a date with a guy in my city.  I said -no-of course - I wasn't running a hotel and it was a studio apartment.  I add this because it was cumulative -messed up boundaries IMO and odd assumptions etc.  I think in your situation as well she has some intense hang ups that I don't think you should deal with much longer.  I actually do think she is into you -very - I do not think she is using you -just my take -using you to say she has a boyfriend - not in any real way. I think she expects you to accommodate her atypical "baggage" I guess. It's also possible -hope this is not so -she was raped or abused and hasn't opened up to you yet.

Outside of that I suppose she could be married or have some sort of secret life like a girlfriend and she wants this public persona of having a male romantic partner but I don't really think that is it. 

[Zeus131313]

1 minute ago, Andrina said:

If this works out, what is the plan for closing the distance? I'm assuming the distance isn't all too far, since she can afford doing all this traveling. If she willing to move your way and sought out or accepted a long distance connection, I'm wondering why if she has a full life with a good career and a big support group where she lives. What is her relationship history? No citizenship changes would have to be made with this union if marriage is the goal, would it? Has she made excuses for you to not go her way, possibly not wanting you to see the reality of her life where she lives?

 

Hi Andrina,  thank you again for posting,  And here is where it is also weird.  We did not meet online,  We met at my city and during her stay we saw each other every day at the hotel she was staying (i have a lot of my clients there) and there was intense flirting which progressed,  We leave a 3 hour flight apart and no citizenship issues exist.  I have seen where she lives, her house, spoke to many of her friends and even her sister will come with her for a short break on her next trip so she can also meet me in person.

Her relationship history is varied,  Married in her 20s to a man who became physically (although not sexually) abusive and whom she divorced without a second thought.  Had a few relationships since but none lasted more than 2 years maximum.

Regarding the future she has said right from the start even before we started dating that she wanted to move to my part of the world as she loves it

[Zeus131313]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I am in my 50s and  this situation would not work for me now or back when I was dating up to age 39 (when I started dating my future husband long distance for a lot of the time and exclusively).  In my late 20s I met a man in his late 20s.  He was serious minded and  really into me at the beginning. He wanted to stay over on the third date so he wouldn't have to drive home a long distance and I lived in a really fun neighborhood.  We both said -no sex - and he knew I had a studio apartment.  One bed.  One couch.  He indicated we should share the bed. 

However all of a sudden when I got into bed -fully dressed, him as well -he was horrified that I would even think of cuddling.  I don't think we had really kissed yet.  He was visibly nervous and anxious.  I was turned off and found this really odd.  He'd also asked a separate time if his younger sister who I'd met once could crash at my place after a date with a guy in my city.  I said -no-of course - I wasn't running a hotel and it was a studio apartment.  I add this because it was cumulative -messed up boundaries IMO and odd assumptions etc.  I think in your situation as well she has some intense hang ups that I don't think you should deal with much longer.  I actually do think she is into you -very - I do not think she is using you -just my take -using you to say she has a boyfriend - not in any real way. I think she expects you to accommodate her atypical "baggage" I guess. It's also possible -hope this is not so -she was raped or abused and hasn't opened up to you yet.

Outside of that I suppose she could be married or have some sort of secret life like a girlfriend and she wants this public persona of having a male romantic partner but I don't really think that is it. 

Thank you for your input.  I also have my suspicions regarding some type of sexual abuse although she has been open about physical abuse she suffered for a short time by her ex husband whom she divorced almost immediately (30 years ago).  I dont think she is using me for any ulterior motive.  If she did she could do it with less effort than now.  She does not need to message me so much, she does not need to call me so much, she does not need to be on the phone every night until we sleep.

She knows I am not that type of man that could be strung along.  I am good looking as I am told, I have a great career, am dynamic and have a varied past with many relationship experiences.

It is a very confusing situation

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, Zeus131313 said:

Thank you for your input.  I also have my suspicions regarding some type of sexual abuse although she has been open about physical abuse she suffered for a short time by her ex husband whom she divorced almost immediately (30 years ago).  I dont think she is using me for any ulterior motive.  If she did she could do it with less effort than now.  She does not need to message me so much, she does not need to call me so much, she does not need to be on the phone every night until we sleep.

She knows I am not that type of man that could be strung along.  I am good looking as I am told, I have a great career, am dynamic and have a varied past with many relationship experiences.

It is a very confusing situation

This has zero to do with any of your attributes.  I assume you are an intelligent, handsome, well intentioned and caring person -that is obvious.  I would use I statements with her.  She wasn't born yesterday.  "I am really interested in continuing to be in a relationship with you.  I love how much we have in common and I love and have so much fun on our visits.  I am not comfortable being in a romantic relationship where there is no kissing and affection and where there is no openness on your end to being sexual in any way.  To me that is basically a platonic friendship. I have a lot of friends already as do you.  I am happy to stay in touch as platonic friends and see each other platonically if we happen to be in the same city at the same time. I do plan to date if the opportunity arises and obviously you can do the same if you choose.  There may be others who would be content with dating without kissing or sexual affection and that's fine. I am not."

[Zeus131313]

14 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

This has zero to do with any of your attributes.  I assume you are an intelligent, handsome, well intentioned and caring person -that is obvious.  I would use I statements with her.  She wasn't born yesterday.  "I am really interested in continuing to be in a relationship with you.  I love how much we have in common and I love and have so much fun on our visits.  I am not comfortable being in a romantic relationship where there is no kissing and affection and where there is no openness on your end to being sexual in any way.  To me that is basically a platonic friendship. I have a lot of friends already as do you.  I am happy to stay in touch as platonic friends and see each other platonically if we happen to be in the same city at the same time. I do plan to date if the opportunity arises and obviously you can do the same if you choose.  There may be others who would be content with dating without kissing or sexual affection and that's fine. I am not."

Thank You!!!!  We next meet in September when she is coming for 9 days near the end of the month.  She will stay with me at my place.  If by day 2 nothing happens again I will have that exact discussion.  You can see though why it is so confusing?  She is so affectionate and touchy feely but it stops in the bedroom

[Kwothe28]

2 hours ago, Zeus131313 said:

What should I do? When I voiced my questions she said that because she is a very intense person she has very intense feelings and needs to be certain. 

I dont even understand what that means? Does she means kissing would lead to sex? Kissing is intimate but not really some monumental boundary she cant pass. What does she mean by "being intense person"? 

Anyway, aside of that, it is progressing quite good. She already calls you her boyfriend even. So its dubious why she wont even kiss you. Its weird. Maybe my culture is different but never had that kind of troubles. I heard for withholding sex but withholding kisses is something I never experience or heard from anyone here. Where do you find people like that? There is different thread with man with same issue. Though his is maybe that she doesnt like him enough. Yours shows that she does but wont even kiss you. Again, weird. My only thought is that she is maybe trying to withhold because she doesnt want you to think she is "easy" and maybe thinks you will dump her right after you do the deed. So she is trying to create some kind of "yearning" from you by withholding it. Which would be manipulation. 

[Batya33]

26 minutes ago, Zeus131313 said:

Thank You!!!!  We next meet in September when she is coming for 9 days near the end of the month.  She will stay with me at my place.  If by day 2 nothing happens again I will have that exact discussion.  You can see though why it is so confusing?  She is so affectionate and touchy feely but it stops in the bedroom

I see it as you confusing yourself though. You know you are uncomfortable. You know her responses do not clear up anything.  You know you are actually questioning whether it has to do with your looks or what you have to offer.  I think between adults it's great to express that the person wants to sleep in the same bed but not yet have intercourse -before the couple is in bed- therefore there is time for any shift in mindset or other "set" needed.  I waited to have intercourse for months.  I communicated that to those where there was serious potential and prior to any sleepovers.  I was sexual and affectionate and all the rest prior to having intercourse.  

I would stop being dishonest with yourself and rationalizing to this extent.  It's the same when someone violates a boundary - pursues sex after the other person says "no" - then the victim questions themselves "did she hear me? did I really say no? maybe he was drunk?".  Be solid and clear about your own values and boundaries. Communicate that simply because assume -again-that some people would love or feel fine with this arrangement.  You do not.  And that is ok.

[Andrina]

1 hour ago, Zeus131313 said:

Married in her 20s to a man who became physically (although not sexually) abusive and whom she divorced without a second thought.  Had a few relationships since but none lasted more than 2 years maximum.

Okay, well 2 years maximum for romantic relationships in a 30 year period is really abnormal. There's a possibility other guys tried to be patient as well but they got tired of kissing what felt like a cold, dead fish.

It's good you now have a plan of action. If things progress and end up going well, knowing her history, I wouldn't plan on marrying if that's your goal until well past a two year mark. People often repeat a pattern so if she's normally the dumper in a relationship, you might expect the same around the 2 year mark. 

44 minutes ago, Zeus131313 said:

We next meet in September when she is coming for 9 days near the end of the month.

If she has such a good job, how is she getting all of this time off? Has she paid all the air faire's and hotel visits herself in past visits, or do you contribute? Was she vacationing alone during that first visit when you met? How have you seen her house? On video calls? Did she approach you at the hotel bar or something? Or did you approach her?

[Zeus131313]

11 minutes ago, Andrina said:

Okay, well 2 years maximum for romantic relationships in a 30 year period is really abnormal. There's a possibility other guys tried to be patient as well but they got tired of kissing what felt like a cold, dead fish.

It's good you now have a plan of action. If things progress and end up going well, knowing her history, I wouldn't plan on marrying if that's your goal until well past a two year mark. People often repeat a pattern so if she's normally the dumper in a relationship, you might expect the same around the 2 year mark. 

If she has such a good job, how is she getting all of this time off? Has she paid all the air faire's and hotel visits herself in past visits, or do you contribute? Was she vacationing alone during that first visit when you met? How have you seen her house? On video calls? Did she approach you at the hotel bar or something? Or did you approach her?

She is independantly well off financially,  She is not rich but definitely is doing very well and she is an advisor to the pharmaceutical industry working for herself.  She has paid all her airfares and accommodation and so far i have not contributed anything to her travel arrangements.  Of course while she is here visiting me I have been paying for our dinners although she has picked up some of our bar bills without me knowing.  I have seen her house through video calls at various different times of the day and it is very obvious it is where she lives as she often has me on video chat as she is getting ready to do things or when she is getting ready for bed etc.

Regarding how we met she was staying at a hotel that I use frequently to host business clients of mine (I am in advertising) and she was in my city as a guest advisor of one of my clients.  This is how we met - a business meeting.  Next day we saw each other at the bar and got talking and it progressed from there,.  First emails, then phone calls and then she said she would come for a weekend so we could go out.  The rest you already know.

 

I fully agree that it is not normal for someone to be dating but not be in a long term relationship for decades. 

[lostandhurt]

You are only 50 and there is a lot of life to live ahead of both of you so please do not settle.

 Intimacy and passion are important and at this stage passionate kissing should be going on.  People are different and have different needs and perhaps she doesn't have the same desires and needs as you do.

How terrible would it be to be so madly in love and physically crazy about your gf only to be shut down all the time by her.

 Sometimes you can be a 95% match on everything else and a 20% match on physical intimacy which ruins the whole thing.  Being with someone that cannot show their desire or have desire for you will tear you down.

  I think the discussion you plan on having is a good idea.  Make sure you do not have it right after she  shuts you down again, have it during the day where you have time and everything is calm.

  I will be straight with you I have a bad feeling about this. 

Lost

[Zeus131313]

1 minute ago, lostandhurt said:

You are only 50 and there is a lot of life to live ahead of both of you so please do not settle.

 Intimacy and passion are important and at this stage passionate kissing should be going on.  People are different and have different needs and perhaps she doesn't have the same desires and needs as you do.

How terrible would it be to be so madly in love and physically crazy about your gf only to be shut down all the time by her.

 Sometimes you can be a 95% match on everything else and a 20% match on physical intimacy which ruins the whole thing.  Being with someone that cannot show their desire or have desire for you will tear you down.

  I think the discussion you plan on having is a good idea.  Make sure you do not have it right after she  shuts you down again, have it during the day where you have time and everything is calm.

  I will be straight with you I have a bad feeling about this. 

Lost

Every time it happens i try to look at it realistically and I do think that it is too important to ignore,.  And then it starts again.  So loving, so giving, so tender and i think that it is only a matter of time.  I know she is not faking it.  We were dancing a song I like which she also does and she told me how happy and safe I make her feel and I could feel her tears on my shoulder.  I didnt say anything because there was no need,  You cannot fake certain things.  And you certainly cannot fake the money she spent in travelling to come and see me or the presents she has been buying for me.

Inspite of all this and although I am 56 I am very highly sexed and cannot see myself in a sexless relationship.  I really like her and I think about her all the time but I have to tell her that I cannot do this indefinitely

 

[ShySoul]

3 hours ago, Zeus131313 said:

However, I cannot understand how when we are a couple we can sleep together but not even make out?

I once loved a woman and she loved me back. The furthest we ever got was spending the night in the same bed, cuddling, and one kiss. Didn't detract from our love or make it mean any less.

I was with aother woman. We loved each other. But it took time to get physical. It started just lying together. We kissed. But we never had sex. And it didn't matter. We still loved each other. We still enjoyed being together and shared a deep and passionate connection. 

Intimacy is not about the physical. It's not about the kissing or sexual aspects, no matter how enjoyable they might be. Intimacy is about being with a person. It's about being in the moment with them and letting the world slip away as it is just the two of you.

She is being physically intimate. The cuddling and holding each other is intimate. She is trusting you with her personal space. She likes you enough to want to be next to you. She feels safe in your arms. 

If she has seen you once a month since April, that's still only five times she has been around you in person. It takes time to feel comfortable with someone. Each person's level of comfort and the time it takes will be different. Love her enough to respect her boundaries and give her the time she needs to be ready. Believe me, it will be more then worth it.

[smackie9]

This may not be an emotional issue but a medical issue like thinning of the vaginal walls which causes extreme pain during sex. Some menopausal women develop this. Yes it can be treated, but sometimes treatment isn't enough. So ya this could be a difficult thing to talk about to a new partner.

Communication is key. Have to have a serious conversation about what's not happening here.

[ShySoul]

22 minutes ago, Zeus131313 said:

We were dancing a song I like which she also does and she told me how happy and safe I make her feel and I could feel her tears on my shoulder

Isn't that intimacy? What's more intimate then being able to cry happy tears with somone who makes you happy.

24 minutes ago, Zeus131313 said:

I am very highly sexed and cannot see myself in a sexless relationship

Who says it will be sexless forever just because you haven't had sex so far? Some people just need more time to be ready. For all you know this women could have a very high sex drive once she feels comfortable enough to trust a person in that way. 

2 hours ago, Zeus131313 said:

Her relationship history is varied,  Married in her 20s to a man who became physically (although not sexually) abusive and whom she divorced without a second thought.  Had a few relationships since but none lasted more than 2 years maximum.

She was pysically abused? You don't think the trauma stays with you? You don't think she fears letting someone get that close to her?

She's letting you in slowly but surely. Trust that. Let her go at her speed. Don't be the sterotypical male that needs to have sex or they can't be with a woman. Show her real love and focus on the things that actually matter - sharing your hearts and lives with each other, not your bodies.

[ShySoul]

4 hours ago, Zeus131313 said:

When I voiced my questions she said that because she is a very intense person she has very intense feelings and needs to be certain.  

She means when she falls, she falls deeply. She feels things more intensly. She doesn't want to get emotionally invested only for it to go bad and hurt her. For some people being physical is an act of opening yourself and exposing all your vulnerabilities. It's breaking down all your emotional barriers. Even something like a kiss means the world to sensitive soul like that. Given that and her bad past, she is understandable hesitant to do more. 

Someone like her doesn't need to be rushed. She doesn't need to be confronted. There is nothing abnormal about her.

This is all part of who she is. This is a person you have fallen in love with without sex or even a kiss. You've already proven you can love someone without having those things. So why not trust the love and give it time? Is the urge to have sex right away really more powerful then the love and bond you have built?

[catfeeder]

I'd stop keeping my confusion to myself and share it with her. Right away, not after she shows up in September. I'd want to open this door of discussion long before I position myself for a month of anticipation and pressure to keep my mouth shut about the most important things that bother me NOW.

If the relationship is worth its salt, the two of you can be open, honest and caring about every aspect of your connection. Speaking of future plans and goals makes no sense when you're not even certain that this can ever even become an intimate relationship.

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, catfeeder said:

I'd stop keeping my confusion to myself and share it with her. Right away, not after she shows up in September. I'd want to open this door of discussion long before I position myself for a month of anticipation and pressure to keep my mouth shut about the most important things that bother me NOW.

If the relationship is worth its salt, the two of you can be open, honest and caring about every aspect of your connection. Speaking of future plans and goals makes no sense when you're not even certain that this can ever even become an intimate relationship.

Totally agree.  Please don't use word salad on yourself about what intimacy is in a romantic relationship.  Decide what it is -for you- what makes you feel comfortable in a romantic relationship.  With rare exception most people I know in romantic exclusive serious relationships are physically and sexually intimate perhaps waiting the first couple of months to have sex.  Exceptions I know are certain very religious people ,arranged marriages where you don't really date before marriage or have any real physical contact, and where one person is disabled and cannot be sexually intimate or sexually intimate anymore.

[lostandhurt]

2 hours ago, Zeus131313 said:

I really like her and I think about her all the time but I have to tell her that I cannot do this indefinitely

When to have that discussion is the question.  Some people for what ever reason do not feel passion, do not lust after their partner but they can feel deep love and affection.  For those of us that feel it all and want it all it can be very confusing and yes make you feel rejected. 

 We have all seen this plenty of times where someone holds something back (doesn't matter what) until their partner has fallen head over heels for them and then the truth comes out and they hope the love will keep them around. 

I agree it might be better to have this conversation before she visits so you don't fall any deeper for her and she will not waste a trip to see you.  It might also be easier to have this over the phone (no texting) as it may be awkward.  I can see this isn't just about penetration for you, this is about all the parts and pieces of being intimate.  Her level of physical intimacy may be extremely low but it is best to find out sooner than later.

It sucks when you meet someone and then one important thing kills it.

I have my fingers crossed for you

Lost