When the bad experiences heavily outweigh the good ones

[Lambert]

15 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

That's an interesting choice of activities during which to say nice things to yourself! I'll have it in mind!

You could definitely pick activities of your choice. I just used these two because most people do these things and they are quick little changes to start. 

I can tell you as a regular practitioner of yoga, it feels good.  Once I started this journey doing little positive affirmations and deep breathing exercises it blossomed into a much bigger part of my life. And has helped me.

I no longer attach myself to the outcome, opinions or actions of other people.  Have I had many disappointments in life? Of course who has not? But mine don't define me, nor does anyone else. 

Try it or not. You choose for you. 

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, Lambert said:

I can tell you as a regular practitioner of yoga, it feels good.  Once I started this journey doing little positive affirmations and deep breathing exercises it blossomed into a much bigger part of my life. And has helped me.

I do 4-7-8 breathing -Weil method -at least once a day and do prayers/what I'm grateful for -almost every night.  Daily cardio exercise too which helps so so much.  

[Lambert]

43 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I do 4-7-8 breathing -Weil method -at least once a day and do prayers/what I'm grateful for -almost every night.  Daily cardio exercise too which helps so so much.  

You bring up a great point about exercise... Exercise for the body also strengthen's the mind and emotional health.

Just taking a leisurely walk for a few minutes each day is enough to have an impact.

Another important thing to remember is to not quit.  Take a break or rest but then hold yourself accountable to yourself to keep going! 

People will often say, it's easier for others to do than it is for them. It's really not.  It's just as hard but those that keep with it get stronger!

If someone is willing to let excuses stop them then they will remain in the same place.  It's not magic. 

Life is hard, but it's worth it. At least that's my thought. 

[Batya33]

6 hours ago, Lambert said:

You bring up a great point about exercise... Exercise for the body also strengthen's the mind and emotional health.

Just taking a leisurely walk for a few minutes each day is enough to have an impact.

Another important thing to remember is to not quit.  Take a break or rest but then hold yourself accountable to yourself to keep going! 

People will often say, it's easier for others to do than it is for them. It's really not.  It's just as hard but those that keep with it get stronger!

If someone is willing to let excuses stop them then they will remain in the same place.  It's not magic. 

Life is hard, but it's worth it. At least that's my thought. 

For me I need my daily cardio -extremely intense not leisurely at all -to work out in my brain all my stuff- might be negative energy, might be stress or I might need to think about an approach to a social or work situation.Sometimes it's my time to be in my zone and just listen to my podcast or radio or look at the tv screen.  But it's very exhausting and cleansing and feels like an accomplishment.  I walk plenty all day most days otherwise - for errands, etc - and it's not the same sort of mental health impact. And of course not physical.

[Cherylyn]

Bad experiences did indeed define me.  Absolutely.  I'm not the same naive person I was years ago.  Live and learn the hard way which was the best way and harsh lessons I'll never forget for the rest of my life.  Ever since those bad experiences,  I have yet to experience bad outcomes as of late.  Those bad experiences taught me how to be smarter,  more shrewd and I know the results already 20 jumps ahead.  Bad experiences gave me wisdom which in return prevented potential disasters from allowing history to repeat itself.  Hence,  I've gained high self esteem and self confidence because of it.  It's all been a chain reaction which I've tremendously benefited from.   I know what not to do and what to do from now on and I wish I would've known back then what I know now which most people can attest.  🤗

[Scientist93]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:49 AM, Cherylyn said:

Bad experiences did indeed define me.  Absolutely.  I'm not the same naive person I was years ago.  Live and learn the hard way which was the best way and harsh lessons I'll never forget for the rest of my life.  Ever since those bad experiences,  I have yet to experience bad outcomes as of late.  Those bad experiences taught me how to be smarter,  more shrewd and I know the results already 20 jumps ahead.  Bad experiences gave me wisdom which in return prevented potential disasters from allowing history to repeat itself.  Hence,  I've gained high self esteem and self confidence because of it.  It's all been a chain reaction which I've tremendously benefited from.   I know what not to do and what to do from now on and I wish I would've known back then what I know now which most people can attest.  🤗

There is a case to be made for chasing red flags, though.

Some 5-6 years ago, at a friend's birthday, I met, and immediately took a liking to, a girl that had many of the qualities I find attractive: bubbly, smiley excitable, almost manically extroverted, one helluva singer, really approachable and touchy-feely-huggy and whatnot... but as I tried to get closer to her, I found out from her directly that she's got a very lengthy history of being severely domestically abused, which is why "shallow" attraction comes to her extremely easily but intimacy doesn't at all. I never even reached the first base with her, but I did enjoy the vitriolic friendship that we had all the same, at least between the overly long trauma dump calls and the situations in which she'd snog around in front of me and/or tell me about the other guys she likes (upon which I'd have to remind her that just because I'm a good friend doesn't mean I'm a gay friend xD).

Suffice to say that she wasn't exactly good for my mental health, and me being aware of it was what kept me restrained from trying to pursue a relationship with her, even though the attraction I felt was undeniable (unlike with the woman I've previously talked about in this thread). Still, at one point, I did consider trying to seriously romantically pursue her, and as my insecurities about the consequences of her mental states held me back, one person actually gave me the advice to try it anyway, because even though I knew what was good for me, I didn't feel attraction towards such women, so the only way for me to progress past that (according to that person) was to go for those women which are bad for me anyway and let the direct experience of that teach me.

Ultimately, I ended up never taking that person's advice, but hadn't it actually been for the fact that the girl I was interested in only hung out with me and another dude who she friendzoned as well (because anyone being sexual towards her works on the surface but grinds to a complete halt underneath, as I've already said), I'd've probably made a serious reconsideration. I think that her being intimacy-impotent in itself was a greater obstacle for me than the friends vs. lovers compartmentalisation and other red flags.

TL;DR

Maybe I did dodge a bullet once, but it's unclear as to whether or not such a tradeoff would be good if I at least had a real chance at having sexual intimacy with that person. Either way, I haven't met any similar women after that, so any points about me doing something different the next time might be moot.

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

was to go for those women which are bad for me anyway and let the direct experience of that teach me.

For me in my life I didn't have to touch the hot stove to learn and grow.  I always knew I would get emotionally attached through sex -and potentially pregnant -so I never had casual sex.  I didn't have to try illegal drugs and experience being high from an illegal drug to know that that wouldn't be a good path to go down, not even one time. So I didn't.  I did go for some bad boys and -as I suspected -sometimes I got hurt, a few times I was assaulted.  One bad boy was in part like that and drank too much because he was in denial that he was gay.  So even though -ironically- the chemistry between us was insane, and the sex was amazing - he kept me at arms length so he was always a challenge to me -arms length emotionally  - but luckily I declined his marriage proposal.  We both married the loves of our lives -men -in the same year, 15 years after we broke up (he had to wait to marry till it was legal).

But sure if you think you need to go there and experience being with a person who has red flags  - just you know stay safe and you're also not hurting anyone. Just giving my humble opinion.

[Cherylyn]

21 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

There is a case to be made for chasing red flags, though.

Some 5-6 years ago, at a friend's birthday, I met, and immediately took a liking to, a girl that had many of the qualities I find attractive: bubbly, smiley excitable, almost manically extroverted, one helluva singer, really approachable and touchy-feely-huggy and whatnot... but as I tried to get closer to her, I found out from her directly that she's got a very lengthy history of being severely domestically abused, which is why "shallow" attraction comes to her extremely easily but intimacy doesn't at all. I never even reached the first base with her, but I did enjoy the vitriolic friendship that we had all the same, at least between the overly long trauma dump calls and the situations in which she'd snog around in front of me and/or tell me about the other guys she likes (upon which I'd have to remind her that just because I'm a good friend doesn't mean I'm a gay friend xD).

Suffice to say that she wasn't exactly good for my mental health, and me being aware of it was what kept me restrained from trying to pursue a relationship with her, even though the attraction I felt was undeniable (unlike with the woman I've previously talked about in this thread). Still, at one point, I did consider trying to seriously romantically pursue her, and as my insecurities about the consequences of her mental states held me back, one person actually gave me the advice to try it anyway, because even though I knew what was good for me, I didn't feel attraction towards such women, so the only way for me to progress past that (according to that person) was to go for those women which are bad for me anyway and let the direct experience of that teach me.

Ultimately, I ended up never taking that person's advice, but hadn't it actually been for the fact that the girl I was interested in only hung out with me and another dude who she friendzoned as well (because anyone being sexual towards her works on the surface but grinds to a complete halt underneath, as I've already said), I'd've probably made a serious reconsideration. I think that her being intimacy-impotent in itself was a greater obstacle for me than the friends vs. lovers compartmentalisation and other red flags.

TL;DR

Maybe I did dodge a bullet once, but it's unclear as to whether or not such a tradeoff would be good if I at least had a real chance at having sexual intimacy with that person. Either way, I haven't met any similar women after that, so any points about me doing something different the next time might be moot.

Dealing with different people teaches you whom to avoid and which ones possess high quality character because at the end of the day nothing is more enduring than character.  Live and learn. 

[Scientist93]

2 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

Dealing with different people teaches you whom to avoid and which ones possess high quality character because at the end of the day nothing is more enduring than character.  Live and learn. 

I'm certainly gonna do the former. Dunno about the latter, though. 😆

[Scientist93]

Hey everyone, I haven't written here in a while so I'd just like to say - thank you once again for joining me for some constructive discussion!

I think that this topic has served its purpose, at least for me. I would like to share with you my main takeaway from our conversation, as surprising as it might be:

1) Simply putting conscious effort into knowing others better, without having any expectations of what your relationships with those people should be, is a good, safe and desirable thing to do, and there are no real downsides to it in the bigger picture.

2) Chemistry cannot be forced. Self-hyping can barely get a person less than halfway far, and hardly in a good way. The so-called unconscious markers either do or don't get hit, but trying to consciously engineer them in any way is a shallow task. Even if one can trick the other person (which is what pickup artistry is about), one can only fool oneself so much.

Again, I don't consider these conclusions to be absolute or inerrant in any way, but they ring true to me based on my own experiences, some of which are (admittedly) very very recent.

And as for the "overwhelmingly bad experiences", I'm ready to accept that they make us what we are, for better or for worse. It's up to ourselves to carry them however we must... and if we're hurt or (worse yet) broken, I just hope we're there for each other in the healing process. Lord knows we need it.

[ShySoul]

Good lessons to take Scientist. 

If you ever need help in the healing process, we're here. As one who is hurt and broken, I know how much that can mean.

Hope your future experiences will be of the overwhelmingly postitve variety.

[SophiaG]

On 7/25/2024 at 4:54 PM, Scientist93 said:

not even feeling sufficient attraction

Nothing wrong with not wanting to date or be in a relationship. If you don't feel like approaching any women, just don't. Why force yourself to be horny or attracted when you are not?

On 7/25/2024 at 4:54 PM, Scientist93 said:

hard for me to imagine what an overall healthy and relatively stable relationship might feel like

Do you have friends who are in happy relationships that you feel somewhat envious toward? Other people in your life or from TV/movies/books that you think are in healthy relationships you can use as role models?

On 7/25/2024 at 4:54 PM, Scientist93 said:

many people tend to seek out new relationships because they've at least had the semi-basic human fortune of having pretty good sex at least once

Hmm, but no one enters puberty with good sex experience already so you gotta start somewhere! Plenty of horny teens/adults looking for relationships who'd never had good sex before. 😂

On 7/25/2024 at 8:41 PM, ShySoul said:

You sound like someone who has been in psycotherapy for nine years and now feels the need to analze and approach everything from a psychological standpoint.

Yes. I applaud people taking care of themselves and addressing mental health issues, while there are definitely way too much amateur diagnosis and psychological analysis in the dating world these days!

On 7/26/2024 at 9:35 AM, Scientist93 said:

I'm stuck between liking her enough to be writing about it and not liking her enough to do anything more.

If you don't like her enough to do anything with/for her, it's probably not good enough for her to consider dating you anyways.

On 7/26/2024 at 1:52 PM, Scientist93 said:

there might be at least some ways of reducing the risk of getting hurt, and I mean in the pre-dating phase.

There are! Polish your screener before you approach women and learn the signs of identifying toxic personalities/dynamics early on. Walk away from unstable and unavailable people before getting attached. 

[SophiaG]

On 7/27/2024 at 11:29 AM, Scientist93 said:

Well, I mean, my standard for making the first move is to feel sufficient attraction, but that virtually never comes to me based on the 'visuals' alone, even though it is a big part of what makes a man attracted.

I can relate to that. As much as I'm shallow and like pretty boys 🤭 I don't necessarily get attracted and want to date them because they are good looking. There's so much more to it! But it doesn't stop me from "making moves" if by that you mean starting a conversation, showing interest, or even asking them out. Perhaps you are taking the "first move" part too seriously? You don't have to come on strong and be all romantic nor are you committing to anything by "making a first move." You are simply showing you are interested in spending time with them and learning more, that's all. A relationship is built by numerous moves from both sides, not just triggered by the first move. It's a mutual selection process. By that point who remembers or cares about who made the first move? And if, after making a move or two, you find that you are not that attracted or they are not the right person for you, you can back away anytime with no hard feelings. I've been asked out and after a date or two we just don't click and we leave it at that. It wasn't embarrassing or rude or anything.

 

On 7/27/2024 at 11:29 AM, Scientist93 said:

For example, the woman whose interest in me I'm currently trying to gauge just lacks that bit of extra attention and touchy-feeliness in order to win me over;

You might be like me who develop feelings slowly and rarely feel the strong attraction when I just meet someone. And being a women, more often than not the guys make moves sooner and show more interests to "win me over", but it's clearly not a given. My good friend used to talk my ear off about how I'd driven away many good guys this way, but I still found my guy regardless! There might be fewer women who like to pursue men, but they sure exist. One thing I would suggest is try not to evaluate a girl by what she's doing/not doing to "win you over." While I take my time to decide on a guy, I use the time to get to know them better, check for any deal breakers or incompatibilities, and see if given time I can feel the attraction. I don't use the time to see how eager they are to date me and what they are willing to do to get me off the fence. Their interest is necessary of course but not a sufficient reason to get in a relationship!

[Scientist93]

Hoo boy, @SophiaG, y0ou've really given me something new to work with! 😅 I'mma address your points for clarity. Here goes:

17 hours ago, SophiaG said:

Why force yourself to be horny or attracted when you are not?

Because otherwise I might never be, or at least I might not be on time, and that doesn't fit in with my self-fulfillment roadmap? 😆 That's the way I used to think up until very recently, at least. Turned out to be too much bother and very little, if anything, else.

17 hours ago, SophiaG said:

Do you have friends who are in happy relationships that you feel somewhat envious toward? Other people in your life or from TV/movies/books that you think are in healthy relationships you can use as role models?

A secondhand emotional experience doesn't even come near living up to a firsthand one - in fact, it's likely to be misleading! And that's not just due to lack of information about a given relationship others have (by which I mean that you judge it only by the (seemingly) functioning parts of it which are observable from the outside), but also due to the fact that you are not those people and are thus different from them in any number of significant ways in which the relationship they happen to have just wouldn't work for you. Beyond the basic needs, so much can differ from one person to another, including how their minds operate, how their moods and emotions change/persist and are overall regulated, what their more complex needs and desires are etc. Not to mention that envy is about comparison, and comparison is a major robber of the inner peace. I don't see how envy could be a healthy source of motivation for seeking companionship, as it's a sort of a competitive emotion, so it's got no place in matters that are about inner alignment rather than one-upping.

Bottom line, there's no amount of romanticising other people's relationships alone that would fool me into seeking a relationship of my own (even though consumerism does weave a web of passive societal pressures along those lines more often than not ). Considering how much my psyche's been ingrained in fear and distrust on the subject, juxtaposing a positive relationship model from the outside rather than on the inside would do me more harm than good... and just like that's my lived experience, I likewise need a lived experience of an overall significantly positive and beneficial relationship in order to desire it and chase it actively. Imagining how good others might have it simply doesn't cut it in that respect.

17 hours ago, SophiaG said:

Hmm, but no one enters puberty with good sex experience already so you gotta start somewhere! Plenty of horny teens/adults looking for relationships who'd never had good sex before. 😂

As I've already written earlier in this topic, the innocence of the early-adolescent sexual impulsiveness is not something I can access through hormonal means alone. It's buried by so many bad experiences I have had since that relatively brief (and absolutely unsuccessful xD) period, so to dig it up would require my fears to give way to trust... and trust is one of the rare things which absolutely CANNOT be built all by one's lonesome, which means I need to find a partner first and liberate myself with their help afterwards. You can see how that's a big practical problem. 😆

17 hours ago, SophiaG said:

If you don't like her enough to do anything with/for her, it's probably not good enough for her to consider dating you anyways.

I clearly wrote "anything more" [than what I've already done, which is gauge her interest through both hanging out with her and texting her], which leads me into...

16 hours ago, SophiaG said:

You don't have to come on strong and be all romantic nor are you committing to anything by "making a first move." You are simply showing you are interested in spending time with them and learning more, that's all. A relationship is built by numerous moves from both sides, not just triggered by the first move. It's a mutual selection process. By that point who remembers or cares about who made the first move? And if, after making a move or two, you find that you are not that attracted or they are not the right person for you, you can back away anytime with no hard feelings.

I completely agree with you, except that I've already made my first move a while ago, and as far as I can tell, she just never reciprocated in a way that would so much as hint at an active interest on her behalf. That story ended with me asking her to accompany me on a bike ride (well, she'd rollerskate along) during the upcoming weekend back in July (or at least early August, I don't remember), to which she replied that she has too many birthdays and other celebrations to attend all the way until the end of September, so she's way too booked to make it... and if there's one universal marker of interest, it's that people who like you - make time for you. At that point, if it had ever been ambiguous in any way, it was clear to me that she didn't like me nearly enough. Either way, the next time I saw her, I didn't even like her! I guess the veil of my self-hype had finally been lifted. xD

And with these words, I hope to finally put this topic to its well-deserved rest. Thanks for chiming in either way. 🙂

[ShySoul]

3 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

I likewise need a lived experience of an overall significantly positive and beneficial relationship in order to desire it and chase it actively

Hey. I pretty much agreed with everything you wrote and think you have a pretty good view on things. At some point the right circumstances will come along and things will be great for you. Though, I know you would rather things happen now (as would I).

Did want to say I think you can desire and chase a positive relationship without the lived experience. I had barely seen any truly postitve examples of a good relationship (only one), and I certainly hadn't experienced any myself. Yet I still desired it more then anything. If anything, not having it increased my desire. I wanted to be the opposite of everything around me, to fully appreciate how special it is when no one else seemed to.

Anyway, hope good things come your way. Best of luck and I'll let you put this to rest (for now at least 😉).