When the bad experiences heavily outweigh the good ones

[Scientist93]

Even though I (31M) would like to be in a healthy and stable romantic relationship, I feel like I lack proper motivation to pursue it, simply because I've never had a real chance to experience it as such, so it's almost like I don't even know what I'm going after, like I've never had a proper taste of the end goal in order to find it sufficiently worthwhile.

I've had two relationships, if you can even call them that, so far: one which was a very one-sided first-base affair with a woman who had a bipolar/schizoaffective disorder and kept passively leading me on (i.e. never quite rejecting me in a way in which she would distance herself from me for my own good) for my friendship while being in love with (and going after) someone else, and another in which I covered all three bases with a woman who had BPD and for whom I was ultimately only a rebound once every week for a little over a month (which I liked the tempo of but didn't get enough real intimacy from at all), despite wanting an actual relationship. Each of those women also ended up hospitalised (for hysteric and/or self-poisoning episodes) at least once during those periods, and those situations, among others, brought me several episodes of anxiety back then.

It's been almost 10 years since the former "relationship" and almost 7 years since the latter one, but I haven't really dated in the meantime. Sure, I've had - and used - various social opportunities to gauge the interests of women I found at least attractive and pleasantly captivating enough to talk to, but I've never quite felt any impulses that would break my self-control enough for me to feel compelled to make any serious moves... and the reason I feel I need my self-control broken, in a way (and no, no substances have helped so far, however psychoactive), is because, from my own standpoint, my lack of willingness to attempt any further escalations from the position of anything other than a girl escalating first or being blatantly smitten with me is entirely reasonable. It's like I'm supposed to reach out using something that doesn't quite exist in me on its own, in order to get to something that I don't even believe exists.

There is psychological research that suggests that a stable and fruitful relationship should have about five positive experiences for each negative one (and that's even considered to be the optimal ratio, because there should be a healthy minimal dose of conflict in order for the relationship to keep developing without significant stagnations), but based on my own past relationships, the score is overwhelmingly in the favour of the cons over the pros. Moreover, while imagining potential negative experiences produces negative emotions in the present, imagining potential positive experiences does NOT analogously yield positive emotions in the present as a result; therefore, I don't see how I could make dating fun. It might be that I just haven't found an adequate person approach-wise, but even that got ruined for me by the fact that my two "exes" essentially escalated first and yet they were very unstable people. I'm not inherently attracted to instability, even though it can bring a sense of adventure to dating and relationships. I've had romantic and sexual excitement tied to anxiety back then, and it was horrible. Hell, before I got together with those women, at least I could follow some youthful instincts that were still untainted; but afterwards, tallying the score, I felt like those relationships weren't rewarding at all. The kissing was mediocre, the desires were unaligned, the sex was terrible, and I never managed to keep those relationships for long enough to improve upon any of that. It all felt pointless.

In closing, I would also like to stress that I've also been in psychotherapy for 9 full years now, and that it's helped me more than I could describe. I'm also in a genuine phase of focusing on other areas of my life, like finding a job, and I'm working through my baggage by recognising it and also learning a great deal of self-love that I've missed for the great majority of my life (although that, too, seems to indirectly reduce my need for a relationship, since a part of it consisted of my projection of my parental figures onto my potential partners).

TL;DR

I think that my lack of motivation for pursuing a relationship is both fundamentally rational and fully justified by my unfortunate past relationship experiences, and I feel helpless to change that without forcing myself to date in the absence of any positive feelings and visions for my dating future at all, which would just make it even more boring and unappealing. I would like to know if there's anything that I can do to "start believing in love again" without having to rely on blind luck of someone being assertive enough to either escalate or not get turned off by my transparency about my own baggage-induced relationship apathy. I've learnt not to fixate on this, but I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, either.

[Andrina]

1 hour ago, Scientist93 said:

I'm also in a genuine phase of focusing on other areas of my life, like finding a job, and I'm working through my baggage by recognising it and also learning a great deal of self-love that I've missed for the great majority of my life

Sounds like you're busy with that right now, so don't fret about not wanting to date at the moment. It's not the right time. If you don't have a close knit group of people you hang out with, or even if you do, you might want to expand to Meetup.com groups to find more happiness in just friendships for now. And I don't mean groups for singles. I just mean people who meet for fun activities like attending festivals, hiking, kayaking, bicycling, etc.

Especially if you're lacking in conversational skills with women--not just as prospective dates but solely a pleasant and interesting person to talk to. Perhaps if you can have enriching conversations with women in a platonic situation, you will feel more comfortable and confident that there are plenty of non-toxic women in the world and you won't be so afraid of them.

[Kwothe28]

Technically speaking, anybody who isnt in long term relationship or marriage, has bad experience dating. As they arent in a happy relationship. That isnt exclusive to you. It doesnt even have to be due to lack of relationship. Friend broke 8 year relationship in April. They have gone to vacation in Portugal and broke up after that due to him wanting kids and her not being ready. Anyway, few days ago he tolds me that she messaged her college buddy for years and that they even saw each other when they were in Portugal(kicker is, she wanted to go alone to see her best friend there but wanted to see the guy too, my friend wanted to see Portugal too so he took vacation and came along). Anyhow, he tells me the other day, that she is in a relationship now with that college buddy of hers. And that he always wondered how she didnt have too much love for him in all that time and that she probably just didnt love him but was in love with that buddy of hers. Imagine spending 8 years with somebody to find out that. Friend also bounced back, found some single mom on some concert. He is one of those who cant be alone. But still, you can see how even people who had big relationships, can have very negative experiences. 

Anyway, messy people have a magnet for other messy people. So no wonder you, who dont have your life in order, made an affair with 2 women who had BPD. You did some work on yourself, but you still have a long way to go. For example, finding a job and taking care of yourself financially would not just make you way less messy, but also make it easier for you to maybe court some woman in the future. It opens up many more possibilities you didnt had before. 

[Cherylyn]

I agree that bad memories heavily outweigh good ones.  Case in point:  My MIL (mother-in-law)'s mother taught her this:  "Find the good in everyone."  MIL has passed down her so-called 'saintly' pearls of wisdom to several generations and for awhile I actually believed it and tried very hard to practice thinking this mantra.  In theory and on paper,  it's noble but for reality?  I don't think so try as I may.  Why?  It's those bad memories which remind you not to trust certain people because there's no telling when they'll pull yet another fast one on you again sometime in the future,  if not now,  when?  It's only a matter of time.  🙄

Bad memories forewarn you not to attempt to resume relationships with perpetrators because they're dangerous.  They will give you angst,  stress and major headaches if you were to engage or associate with them.  They're very high maintenance,  very costly,  an imposition and burden.  They spell nothing but trouble and their weight is very heavy.  I've since lightened my load by dumping undesirables from my life and it's been a tremendous relief.  🙂  My only regret was I didn't dump them sooner.  Better late than never.  The moral of the story is this:  No second chances for those who don't deserve it and for those who've proven that they'll never change for the better.  They're absolutely hopeless.  ☹️ 

MIL also told me:  "Everyone has foibles including you!"  Talk about condescending and gaslight-y.  😒  It's ok because the more she spews her mealy mouthed narcissism my way,  the less access she has to her son and grandsons because what goes around comes around.  Some people pound the final nail into their own coffin and it's less work for me.  Be my guest.  Dig a deeper hole for yourself.
😐 OP @Scientist93 This applies to you, too.  Whenever people act a certain way or say something snide to you,  you lose your desire to be with them and if you're a package deal,  the perpetrator better be careful otherwise it will bite them in the _______ later. 

If anyone balks at harsh consequences,  they should've thought about that before they decided to open their big fat mouth.  😕 There is always a steep price to pay for disrespectful actions haphazardly dumped upon another person.  Think before you speak and write because it will count.  People never forget how you made them feel.  And none of this _______  "I'm sorry you took it the wrong way" ________ or "You're too sensitive!" _______  😠  I'm sure it wouldn't be received well when it's my turn to dispense the same ________ comments should the opportunity present itself.  🙄

Don't let your bad experiences tarnish your thoughts regarding relationships though.  Not all people are bad.  All you can do is learn from negative experience,  become more shrewd and a better judge of character.  Determine who suits you and who doesn't qualify due to their lack of pure integrity.  Beware of shady tricksters who relish in gaslighting,  condescending remarks,  mind games,  sneaky deflections,  head trips and drama.  Steer clear of those types.   Learn to be very picky and choosy because it will pay off later.  Haste makes waste.  Scrutinize character thoroughly.  If anyone is off,  they're off.  Avoid weird,  strange and odd people.   Heed those red flags and warning signals in your brain.  Most of all,  avoid complicated people like the plague!  😲

[Scientist93]

5 hours ago, Andrina said:

Perhaps if you can have enriching conversations with women in a platonic situation, you will feel more comfortable and confident that there are plenty of non-toxic women in the world and you won't be so afraid of them.

It's not that I'm afraid of women because they might be toxic, it's more that my toxic relationships with unstable women made it hard for me to imagine what an overall healthy and relatively stable relationship might feel like, hence my lack of serious romantic interest toward other women unless it's clear to me that they like me. At least I had the benefit of naivete and being in (unrequited) love before my unfortunate affairs, but now there's just nothing new to combat those negative experiences.

It's less about the fear and more about not even feeling sufficient attraction unless she invests something extra that at least peeks beyond the desirable but all-too-normal "I enjoy your company and proximity and the conversation we're having". Why would I even want this 'good relationship' thing if I've never even gotten the taste of it? Reason operating on hearsay is a feeble force compared to imagination, and I need a sample in order to get properly inspired.

I agree about the rest, though.

2 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Technically speaking, anybody who isnt in long term relationship or marriage, has bad experience dating. As they arent in a happy relationship. That isnt exclusive to you. It doesnt even have to be due to lack of relationship.

Let's not pretend that all bad relationships are equally bad. I wish I had at least something good from my previous relationships to hold onto, in order to guide myself toward something better that would also include that positive aspect.

I'm sure that many people tend to seek out new relationships because they've at least had the semi-basic human fortune of having pretty good sex at least once, but despite the hypersexual BPD stereotype that also kinda applied to my ex, I needed more time to get acquainted with intimacy and become comfortable with the game of it... and alas, I didn't get it, because she decided to quit way too soon. I'm open to suggestions, though: if there's anything as potent as sexual satisfaction that I can somehow learn and use as motivation to pursuit a relationship, I'm all for it.

And again, I do agree with the rest.

[Cherylyn]

I agree not all relationships are bad and not all people are bad.  You need to weed out the bad apples though.  Don't settle for mediocrity.  You'd better shop around .  .  . 

[ShySoul]

With all respect, you are overthinking it. You sound like someone who has been in psycotherapy for nine years and now feels the need to analze and approach everything from a psychological standpoint. While I'm glad it has helped you, in some areas you don't need to go into that much thought and analysis.

If you don't want to pursuse a relationship right now, for whatever reason, then don't. If you aren't attracted to someone, then you aren't attracted to someone. If you don't see the possibility of a healthy relationship right now, it's just a sign you shouldn't be in a relationship at this time. If you need "something extra" from the woman before you could even consider a relationship, then that's just how you feel and what you need. I would imagine most people feel the need for there to be something extra before they would be willing to really invest in something. None of this is wrong. None of this is bad. Nothing needs to be changed or addressed. This is simply where you are at.

And as they say, once bitten, twice shy. If you've had the bad experiences you've had, why wouldn't you be more cautious?

Contrary to popular belief, no one needs to be in a relationship. No one needs to date. Sometimes it is perfectly okay to not be motivated to do something about finding romance. If you are happy pursuing other areas of your life, then be happy with that. It doesn't mean you don't want something eventually. It doesn't mean you won't have something eventually. It just means that time is not right now.

It's been my experience and observation that when good relationships happen, it isn't because people are searching for it or trying to make something happen. It isn't because people analyze and figure out what is the right way to approach things. Things happen because the people involved feel it and are compelled to act. They simply know and follow what they feel is right for them. If you aren't feeling it, then it's not the right time for you.

 

[ShySoul]

3 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

if there's anything as potent as sexual satisfaction that I can somehow learn and use as motivation to pursuit a relationship, I'm all for it

There is something a thousand times more potent then sexual satisfication. It's called love. 

I'm not denying that sex can't be a good part of a relationship. But if sex is the foundation, then the relationship is bound for eventual failure. Sex is not and should not be the drive or motivation for a relationship. The whole thing that makes sex special in the first place is the feelings and emotions behind it, the connection and bond between two people. That is what I believe we all really crave. The physical act is just the expression of our inner being and emotions.

You understand this. You said you needed more to be intimate. You've had it right all along. So don't doubt yourself or think there needs to be anything else.

3 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

I'm sure that many people tend to seek out new relationships because they've at least had the semi-basic human fortune of having pretty good sex at least once,

Yes many people do. Doesn't mean you have to. I don't. I want a relationship because I connect with person, because we understand each other and our lives our better for having each other in it. Sex isn't a consideration.

[Scientist93]

12 hours ago, ShySoul said:

With all respect, you are overthinking it. ... If you don't want to pursuse a relationship right now, for whatever reason, then don't. If you aren't attracted to someone, then you aren't attracted to someone. If you don't see the possibility of a healthy relationship right now, it's just a sign you shouldn't be in a relationship at this time. If you need "something extra" from the woman before you could even consider a relationship, then that's just how you feel and what you need. I would imagine most people feel the need for there to be something extra before they would be willing to really invest in something. None of this is wrong. None of this is bad. Nothing needs to be changed or addressed. This is simply where you are at.

I appreciate this attitude very much! A question, though: what if I'm attracted to someone, but not enough for my own standards? Should I really treat being unsure as sufficient disinterest?

I'm asking this because presently, there's this woman who I like, but who doesn't seem to be returning my interests in ways and amounts I would understand as signs of definite reciprocation... but here's the kicker: one time while we were hanging out within an improvised friend group, she started gravitating toward a friend of mine so much that I kept thinking about it for days afterwards. It was a phase of jealousy the size of which I haven't felt in close to a decade, and now that it's gone again, I don't know what to make of it. I'm stuck between liking her enough to be writing about it and not liking her enough to do anything more.

12 hours ago, ShySoul said:

There is something a thousand times more potent then sexual satisfication. It's called love. 

I'm not denying that sex can't be a good part of a relationship. But if sex is the foundation, then the relationship is bound for eventual failure. Sex is not and should not be the drive or motivation for a relationship. The whole thing that makes sex special in the first place is the feelings and emotions behind it, the connection and bond between two people. That is what I believe we all really crave. The physical act is just the expression of our inner being and emotions.

You understand this. You said you needed more to be intimate. You've had it right all along. So don't doubt yourself or think there needs to be anything else.

Fully agreed. The sexual satisfaction was just an example I decided to provide because I think that it's both a) something that does keep many people motivated for seeking out new relationships past previous horrible experiences, and b) something that I myself have never truly experienced with any of my exes. It could be whatever other force, including love, but, well... I don't think I remember love, either.

[Batya33]

I agree you are way overthinking this.  Is it possible that you're telling yourself all of this abstract, generalized stuff and musing and ruminating -because it's safer than being out there meeting people, interacting, being proactive -and risking being hurt?

Also being jealous doesn't presumably mean you are into the person or into the person for the right reasons.

[Scientist93]

54 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I agree you are way overthinking this.  Is it possible that you're telling yourself all of this abstract, generalized stuff and musing and ruminating -because it's safer than being out there meeting people, interacting, being proactive -and risking being hurt?

Also being jealous doesn't presumably mean you are into the person or into the person for the right reasons.

I agree on both points, although I wanna add this regarding the former: it really seems to me that there might be at least some ways of reducing the risk of getting hurt, and I mean in the pre-dating phase.

Let's assume that my relative "frigidity" (i.e. never seeming to really be highly interested in any woman before getting any signs of clear reciprocation of romantic interest, at least after a while) is a complex defence mechanism I've adopted in order to protect myself from the various pains of rejection (which today mostly assume the form of "if she rejects me, I'm going to feel incredibly awkward whenever I socialise with my main group of friends because she comes to hang out with them often as well, and I don't want to disallow any of them from hanging out with each other OR to be shunned from any hangouts because I'm the only one feeling uncomfortable"). Even if it were so, which I wouldn't exactly find unlikely at all - what then?

I've had some cases in which the romantic interest coming from the other side was clear without being aggressive (not that I mind receiving some boldness in the mix), and they're way different from what I'm experiencing now, so I don't think my doubts are unreasonable... and honestly, I don't want to be desperate, either, yet it seems to me that I already am, in a way.

[Batya33]

5 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

agree on both points, although I wanna add this regarding the former: it really seems to me that there might be at least some ways of reducing the risk of getting hurt, and I mean in the pre-dating phase.

One way is not looking at it as some kind of phase.  What happens before someone agrees to go on a date or asks you on a date varies  widely.  Depends how you met/when/how often you see each other and on and on.

Reducing risk of getting hurt. How I did it - I never expected someone to want to date me.  Even if they flirted or showed "signs" -the only relevant sign was he asked me out on a proper date (or accepted my invitation enthusiastically but back then asking men out was mostly ineffective for someone like me who wanted marriage and family).

I never expected a second date unless one was planned during the first date -after thanks and goodbye -he was off my radar ASAP.

I didn't date men who weren't available to date, who wanted casual sex, who had dealbreaker stuff like didn't want kids/or didn't know, didn't want marriage in general, were not from the area -so I didn't get emotionally attached to anyone where there was a dealbreaker/high risk of it never working out as far as marriage potential.

I didn't have casual sex.  I knew myself and knew I'd likely get emotionally attached through sex.

I accepted that all of it has risk -and I'd never have dated in the first place as much as I did if I didn't want marriage and family.  

I'd say it depends how badly you want it.  I took immense risks in conceiving and giving birth to my first and only child at age 42.  I had medical consequences from that choice.  I've made many sacrifices to be a parent and a good parent to our son.  I've risked heartbreak so many times in raising a child like most parents who love their kids with all their heart -do.  I reduced the risk by waiting to have a child until I was in a happy committed relationship, and while I can't reduce the risk of heartbreak since I love him to the moon and back I can reduce the risks of having my heart broken and I do. It's not a science. A work in progress.  But worth it given how much I wanted to be a married mom -married to the right person.

 

[SooSad33]

On 7/25/2024 at 10:20 AM, Scientist93 said:

Even though I (31M) would like to be in a healthy and stable romantic relationship, I feel like I lack proper motivation to pursue it, simply because I've never had a real chance to experience it as such, so it's almost like I don't even know what I'm going after, like I've never had a proper taste of the end goal in order to find it sufficiently worthwhile.

Mr Scientist, I think this is your first challenge.

Getting OUT of your head. ( example 1, below).....

 

On 7/25/2024 at 10:20 AM, Scientist93 said:

from my own standpoint, my lack of willingness to attempt any further escalations from the position of anything other than a girl escalating first or being blatantly smitten with me is entirely reasonable. It's like I'm supposed to reach out using something that doesn't quite exist in me on its own, in order to get to something that I don't even believe exists.

 

On 7/25/2024 at 10:20 AM, Scientist93 said:

There is psychological research that suggests that a stable and fruitful relationship should have about five positive experiences for each negative one (and that's even considered to be the optimal ratio, because there should be a healthy minimal dose of conflict in order for the relationship to keep developing without significant stagnations), but based on my own past relationships, the score is overwhelmingly in the favour of the cons over the pros. Moreover, while imagining potential negative experiences produces negative emotions in the present, imagining potential positive experiences does NOT analogously yield positive emotions in the present as a result; therefore, I don't see how I could make dating fun.

I see it as a general fear, and you truly never have experience an actual 'relationship', more like hook ups.

You don't know how you could make dating 'fun'?  You haven't gone there yet, or tried to 😉 .  

Is like the 'anxiety' issue.  Mine was so bad I sat outside a grocery store once and just fell apart 😞 .  I went back home.  But, today with much 'mind sense' - mentally prepping for it, I say 'Enough'. Now get yourself going.

- I plan a day to go out

- I plan a time to go out - and I have my cards & shopping list/ bags ready etc.

Then I just go! I do it! I literally 'make myself'.  Sometimes we have to!  We need to get past that barrier and do it.

And I have to admit, I DO feel so much better when it is actually done 🙂 .  - Because the anxiety was doing me in, instead of acting on it.  😉 

 

 

On 7/25/2024 at 10:20 AM, Scientist93 said:

n closing, I would also like to stress that I've also been in psychotherapy for 9 full years now, and that it's helped me more than I could describe. I'm also in a genuine phase of focusing on other areas of my life, like finding a job, and I'm working through my baggage by recognising it and also learning a great deal of self-love that I've missed for the great majority of my life (although that, too, seems to indirectly reduce my need for a relationship, since a part of it consisted of my projection of my parental figures onto my potential partners).

Wow, 😕 , so sounds like some deep rooted damages there as well?

Is good though, that you've seeked some prof help over the last while. I did as well a couple of times over the years. Longest was a 4 yr time span. Group therapy and One on one.

I was also dealing with extreme anxiety and moods. I am now self weaned off the anxiety meds and mood stablizers, as I felt I was done with them, though at different times.

My anxiety is still present, in ways, it always will be, which is challenging at times - but I know I do function better nowadays, than I used to 🙂 .

 

Sorry your first cpl of experiences were rough on you 😕 . But, no, not everyone is like this!

IMO, you just need to ease into things.  Do you go out much with friends?  Have a hobby or sport?

If you avoid all of this, that's a negative.  Get out there on occasion, get a taste of the world around you.

As for dating, same thing.  Maybe take a walk into town, around a coffee shop or park.  Think of a public place you'd like to meet up, first...

Are you on a dating site? I've been forever on Pof, but not active on years. I just go 'tour' it on occasion, lol.  So, first things first.  Go take a tour, take a look, like a cpl of them.  Work on getting comfortable there.

As I said, they're not all psycho's, lol.  And we generally get that vibe/ red flags within the first 4-6 wks.

Just keep moving ahead, I believe you will come to meet a nice girl out there who likes you & your company. And I believe you won't give up on this but will gain momentum in it all, because you want to!  you're not done yet, are you. 😉 

One day at a time.  

 

[shouldhavelearned]

Didn't read it all, yet can fully sympathize with the beginnings.

 

So much drama out there. Sorting through it all is something else.

[ShySoul]

15 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

what if I'm attracted to someone, but not enough for my own standards? Should I really treat being unsure as sufficient disinterest?

Hard to say, could depend on the variables. For starters, are your standards reasonable? If it is a matter of someone picking out the tiniest of things and using it to throw potential matches aside, then it's being ridiculous and shouldn't be trusted. 

I would say that when you are interested, really interested, you know. It's always hit me suddenly. I may start to think of them more and be unsure at first. But at some point I'll just realize that I can't stop thinking about them and that I've crossed a threshold I can't go back from. Until you hit that point, don't worry about it. Once you do, be prepared to act upon it.

15 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

The sexual satisfaction was just an example I decided to provide because I think that it's both a) something that does keep many people motivated for seeking out new relationships past previous horrible experiences, and b) something that I myself have never truly experienced with any of my exes. It could be whatever other force, including love, but, well... I don't think I remember love, either

You're right, it is motivation for a lot of people. I'm sure you will experience it someday. And when you do it will be truly satisfying on all levels, almost certainly made even better for the wait. I have a feeling you'll really cherish it and make it special for you and her.

You're making me sad here. Part of you remembers love. Why else would you long for it like you do? Though I get the feeling. When it's been so long you start to doubt it was ever really there or will ever come again. Have faith buddy. Faith manages and the most deserving of love (that would be you) will see the universe provide it. 

[Scientist93]

14 hours ago, SooSad33 said:

Just keep moving ahead, I believe you will come to meet a nice girl out there who likes you & your company. And I believe you won't give up on this but will gain momentum in it all, because you want to!  you're not done yet, are you. 😉 

One day at a time.

Tagging this part for clarity regarding who I'm responding to.

Most of the behavioural stuff you've mentioned, I've already got sorted out. It's just that I'd rather not destabilise my extended circle of close friends by having to deal with the discomfort of meeting the woman who rejected me there. All I need is a hint of being liked back to get me going forward, because even in the case it was misleading and I get rejected, at least I can call the woman out on the cues she provided, instead of muttering "just like the simulations" to myself because "I *knew* she didn't like me enough and I tried anyway, I didn't trust my own judgement because I'm a desperate idiot".

10 hours ago, ShySoul said:

Hard to say, could depend on the variables. For starters, are your standards reasonable? If it is a matter of someone picking out the tiniest of things and using it to throw potential matches aside, then it's being ridiculous and shouldn't be trusted.

You're making me sad here. Part of you remembers love. Why else would you long for it like you do? Though I get the feeling. When it's been so long you start to doubt it was ever really there or will ever come again. Have faith buddy. Faith manages and the most deserving of love (that would be you) will see the universe provide it. 

Well, I mean, my standard for making the first move is to feel sufficient attraction, but that virtually never comes to me based on the 'visuals' alone, even though it is a big part of what makes a man attracted. (There's a whole 'nother can o' worms we could open there, called "desensitisation due to the Internet", but I'd advise against it, because I'm already aware of it and working to mitigate the damage that might be caused.) I usually need some sort of an emotional connection (through the troubles we both experience, through the things we like, through the music we listen to) with a dash of extroverted physicality and vibrantly excited personality, perhaps already on the verge of flirtiness. I've already had the pleasure of meeting such women, but they're really few and far between (the single ones even more so).

For example, the woman whose interest in me I'm currently trying to gauge just lacks that bit of extra attention and touchy-feeliness in order to win me over; and even though she, for example, overall dislikes most cats, I don't consider that to be a dealbreaker. 😃 So there.

And as for remembering love, I don't think I've had actual romantic love in my past relationships. Sure, I wanted to make it work; sure, I got some companionship and a taste of all three bases; but love requires persistence and commitment (which I was giving), and I didn't get it at all in return.

[Batya33]

Totally not to offend by the title but I've heard the book Dating for Dummies by the late and great Dr. Joy Browne is really user friendly and I also love the oldie but goodie A Fine Romance by Judith Sills.  I did suffer the consequences of dating within  friends- my friend's older brother for example but thankfully after he ended things after 5 months it didn't really affect my close friendship with my friend.  But also keep in mind if you have an LTR then if you break up there's often a loss of certain mutual friends, etc or at least it's strained.  Comes with the territory unfortunately and depends if it's worth it to you.

Also certain people won't be touchy feely at all if you're not dating.

[SooSad33]

6 hours ago, Scientist93 said:

Most of the behavioural stuff you've mentioned, I've already got sorted out. It's just that I'd rather not destabilise my extended circle of close friends by having to deal with the discomfort of meeting the woman who rejected me there. All I need is a hint of being liked back to get me going forward, because even in the case it was misleading and I get rejected, at least I can call the woman out on the cues she provided, instead of muttering "just like the simulations" to myself because "I *knew* she didn't like me enough and I tried anyway, I didn't trust my own judgement because I'm a desperate idiot".

 

Nah, try not to call yourself an idiot.  You're human 😉 with needs etc.

I have 2 kids in relationships, so far successful and 2 single.  One is a lot more 'emotional' and seems to lean more this way.  Not interested in the physical aspect like many ( as fact is, many do feel 'used', since being physical does not mean any form of 'love'.. that takes a bit of time to develop).  So, I can totally understand that aspect.

But, sure, feeling the emotional aspect be present first, good idea.  Some prefer to give things time and see IF they feel a good connection other ways.

I do also agree with what Batya mentioned above.  Something to consider.  But, also aim at getting out more.  Get some air, take a nature walk. Feel life 🙂 .  Give yourself time to 'feel okay' again and see if some day you will come across a decent gal that gets you. And I also learned to NOT get involved with friends or co workers.  It really makes things awkward or ruins the 'friendship'.

I have a small circle of friends & the family and thats good enuff for me.  And my pets 😉 . I'm good.

[Scientist93]

On 7/27/2024 at 11:52 PM, SooSad33 said:

Nah, try not to call yourself an idiot.  You're human 😉 with needs etc.

I just wanna say that I'm also aware of the negative effects of self-namecalling, so I'm careful not to do that, either. The negative self-talk example I gave is something that's happened to me before, so whenever I have to deal with my own bad decisions, I have to be wary of that and strive to be kind and understanding toward myself. I don't even find it to be an especially tough battle to fight, but it must be fought nevertheless.

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, Scientist93 said:

I just wanna say that I'm also aware of the negative effects of self-namecalling, so I'm careful not to do that, either. The negative self-talk example I gave is something that's happened to me before, so whenever I have to deal with my own bad decisions, I have to be wary of that and strive to be kind and understanding toward myself. I don't even find it to be an especially tough battle to fight, but it must be fought nevertheless.

One thing that motivates me is my son as I firmly believe if I allow myself to do the negative self-talk it may come across to him in some way and he as a teen with raging hormones and the rest does sometimes call himself names and we work on that!!

[Cherylyn]

Bad experiences give you very bad memories which makes it  easier  for you to automatically say "NO" to repeating past mistakes. 

Bad experiences are harsh lessons which you'll never forget.  It's those harsh lessons which teach you  not  to be tempted into giving people multiple chances otherwise the perpetrator abuses you mentally all over again. 

Bad experiences will give you high self esteem and self confidence. 

Bad experiences strengthen your resolve. 

Bad experiences leave a bad taste in your mouth.  😒 Bad experiences forces you to vow that you'll never get hurt again because you'll become more shrewd and calculating which benefits you today and in the future.  Bad experiences teaches you to be wise. 

[ShySoul]

On 7/27/2024 at 8:29 AM, Scientist93 said:

based on the 'visuals' alone, even though it is a big part of what makes a man attracted.

So, I'll disagree with you on this part. I think the emotional aspects you mentioned are actually what counts most for more men then you would think. Looks will be what attracts some men first. But plenty aren't as interested in the visuals as you would believe. Last time I was interested in someone based on visuals I was five. Every other time as been something internal. I've known a few guys like that. And I don't think it has to do with the internet or being desensitized. Think it's about our internal values and what we value most. 

But that's a side topic I'm sure we could spend an eternity on. 

On 7/27/2024 at 8:29 AM, Scientist93 said:

I usually need some sort of an emotional connection (through the troubles we both experience, through the things we like, through the music we listen to) with a dash of extroverted physicality and vibrantly excited personality, perhaps already on the verge of flirtiness. I've already had the pleasure of meeting such women, but they're really few and far between (the single ones even more so).

Whatever floats your boat, that's what you are into. That's what you need. I think whatever we need to light the spark tends to be uncommon, and for them to be single is even more rare. There are an infinity of personalities out there and a vast array of people. It will always be difficult to find someone that matches us. That difficulty is what makes it so special when it finally does happen. 

I've got the rarest of personality types and think very differently then everyone else around me. I know how hard is is to find someone I click with. And for them to be single? I'll let you know next time it happens, but don't hold your breath.

On 7/27/2024 at 8:29 AM, Scientist93 said:

For example, the woman whose interest in me I'm currently trying to gauge just lacks that bit of extra attention and touchy-feeliness in order to win me over; and even though she, for example, overall dislikes most cats, I don't consider that to be a dealbreaker

She dislikes cats? Forget her. 😉 j/k

I wouldn't think it over too much. Just go with what you feel. If you aren't saying anything, it's probably a no. If it was a yes for you, then you would feel the need to say something. Just go with what your feeling. It generally turns out to be right.

On 7/27/2024 at 8:29 AM, Scientist93 said:

And as for remembering love, I don't think I've had actual romantic love in my past relationships. Sure, I wanted to make it work; sure, I got some companionship and a taste of all three bases; but love requires persistence and commitment (which I was giving), and I didn't get it at all in return.

Don't think you have to have experience romantic love to know what it is, to want it, or even to miss it. I certainly had no real feeling of it prior to one specific person. Even my observation of it from other couples was few and far between (a lot of unhealthy examples but few good ones). But I knew what I wanted it to be. A lack of love actually made me long for it more, gave me a better appreciation for it when it did happen. 

Something is coming your way. It will be great. Just hold on until it gets there. Yes, it's a crazy wait and the road is filled with good and bad. But someone will show it to you. I hope it's soon.

On 7/29/2024 at 4:47 AM, Scientist93 said:

I just wanna say that I'm also aware of the negative effects of self-namecalling, so I'm careful not to do that, either.

Sometimes it just happens. Sometimes a little negativity will creep it before you're even aware. That's fine. Just don't beat yourself up over things or dwell to much on the negative. 

[Lambert]

Hi

my advice is very cliche but clichés are cliche! lol

You have to keep going.  Nothing changes until you change it. 

I suggest you try this- use the time you use to brush your teeth to only say nice things to yourself. And when you wash your hands.  Take a deep breath and hold it for a second. do it a few times. 

Little acts of self care and love are good practices to do all your life. ❤️

 

[Scientist93]

23 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

Bad experiences will give you high self esteem and self confidence. 

Bad experiences strengthen your resolve.

Excuse me, what? 🤨 Self-esteem? Self-confidence? From bad experiences? Maybe only if you do it right. I certainly don't know how. While I have drawn important lessons from my bad experiences in the past, I'm not sure that my self-esteem and self-confidence, which were damaged by those bad experiences, got repaired in the process of learning those lessons; in fact, I'd argue on the contrary.

2 hours ago, ShySoul said:

1) So, I'll disagree with you on this part. I think the emotional aspects you mentioned are actually what counts most for more men then you would think. Looks will be what attracts some men first. ... Think it's about our internal values and what we value most.

2) Whatever floats your boat, that's what you are into. That's what you need. I think whatever we need to light the spark tends to be uncommon, and for them to be single is even more rare. There are an infinity of personalities out there and a vast array of people. It will always be difficult to find someone that matches us. That difficulty is what makes it so special when it finally does happen.

3) I wouldn't think it over too much. Just go with what you feel. If you aren't saying anything, it's probably a no. If it was a yes for you, then you would feel the need to say something. Just go with what your feeling. It generally turns out to be right.

4) Something is coming your way. It will be great. Just hold on until it gets there. Yes, it's a crazy wait and the road is filled with good and bad. But someone will show it to you. I hope it's soon.

1) I agree, I was just making that point based on the fact that most men I know are more taken in by appearances than I am... but it's by no means absolute. It could be down to a difference in the ways we handle excesses of such impulses, but I'm not sure.

2) As someone who's been in therapy for a long time now, I must admit that I do tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to following what I'm into, as what I need can, among other things, be determined by the projections of parental figures (which I've mentioned in my original post here). However, I've been told many a time that I should follow love through my own pathology nevertheless, and now that I agree about that - I hardly have the inspiration to follow anyone. xD I'm not dealing in whens, only ifs.

3) I mean, I've had many times when I wanted to say stuff so much but ended up swallowing it due to a horrible fear of rejection. In the case of the most recent woman I've been into, I think the situations in which I got jealous (because she kept paying significantly more attention, with some hints of physical affection, toward one of my friends who she knows is very much taken) definitely made me wanna say stuff, but saying them would blow my cover of non-jealousy and apparent moderation of interest in an instant, leaving me in a messy, irrational position from which I'd have to claw my way back to a normal, neutral friendship with her. I think I'm not ready for the social consequences of my feelings, so I leave them unexpressed and then have series of several days in which I have troubling dreams, like my teeth falling out and stuff.

4) Thank you for your faith and your kind words! I'm searching for something better than faith right now, if I can find it.

1 hour ago, Lambert said:

I suggest you try this- use the time you use to brush your teeth to only say nice things to yourself. And when you wash your hands.  Take a deep breath and hold it for a second. do it a few times. 

Little acts of self care and love are good practices to do all your life. ❤️

That's an interesting choice of activities during which to say nice things to yourself! I'll have it in mind!

[Cherylyn]

1 hour ago, Scientist93 said:

Excuse me, what? 🤨 Self-esteem? Self-confidence? From bad experiences? Maybe only if you do it right. I certainly don't know how. While I have drawn important lessons from my bad experiences in the past, I'm not sure that my self-esteem and self-confidence, which were damaged by those bad experiences, got repaired in the process of learning those lessons; in fact, I'd argue on the contrary.

 

Bad experiences teach you not to make the same mistake twice or if not twice,  not to make the same mistakes repetitively.  When you figure it out and learn how to be more shrewd and calculating in a good way to your benefit and to be fair, it builds high self esteem and boosts one's self confidence. 

Initially,  bad experiences are a very bad stab to the brain and heart.  It takes time to recover and heal.  After thinking long and hard regarding how to navigate one's life wisely by making smart choices,  it does indeed elevate one's self confidence and promotes high self esteem. 

I can't speak for everyone but based upon my own history,  after bad experiences,  it was painful.  Then as time marched on,  I grew wiser and taught myself how not to get hurt again.  Bad experiences teach you better interpersonal skills so you won't fall into the same avoidable and preventable situations with people.  I would even go so far as to say "traps" with some people.  I don't go there anymore.  I'm very cautious by nature nowadays and had it not been for those bad experiences,  I wouldn't have learned how to interact with people in order to gain the best outcome. 

Bad experiences were not all in vain.  Wisdom was gained.   👍 🙂

I've had recent interactions with some complicated,  difficult people and it was those bad experiences which taught me how to handle challenging dynamics in my favor and at the same time it's fair for everyone.  Bad experiences taught me how to enforce healthy and strict boundaries.  I don't get hurt anymore because I don't allow it.  I don't grant permission to be hurt again and again and again.  Those days are no more and I can thank my bad experiences for my newfound wisdom.  It's very empowering which gives me high self esteem and self confidence.  I'm a lot tougher and stronger 💪 than I thought I was.  No pain,  no gain.  😉