Setting boundaries and expectations?

[Pumpkin_Kun]

I apologize in advance as there is a lot of context I need to give before I get to the meat of this post. 

 

I'm a workaholic and an enabler. This has contributed very poorly to my health to the point that I am forced to make radical life style changes. I'm currently taking few weeks off work after a recent diagnosis with a severe heart issues and pneumonia that left me with with difficulty walking around. I'm still constantly coughing up phlegm, getting dizzy, out of breath, having chest pain, high blood pressure around 170/120 and the cherry on top is I pulled my back from all the coughing. I am in genuine concern for my life and my wife shares the same sentiment. 

 

A few months ago I talked to my therapist and she told me to try to find "me time activities" to help with my ailing health. I reached out to some old friends so that we would have a standing video games night every Friday so I could let off steam and hopefully benefit my health. This was a really big step for me as I haven't given myself "me time" for nearly 10 years, and even with my poor health I can sit at home in front of a computer and talk to some friends. 

 

My wife has a history of narcissistic family abuse. This has led to her not setting boundaries with them well at all in the past. Her family and extended family can be quite racist. One of the comments we received when we were about to get married is that if my wife was going to marry me, she should change her name to Maria and become a cleaning lady. Another is that I recently found out I was called the foreigner for the last 15 years whenever I was talked about in their family. There was also this time where her father threatened to kill me several times, assumingly because I wasn't their race. My wife and I are working on us setting boundaries with them. 

Thursday night my wife came home from work to ask me in front of our young children if we could go to a local food fair, lots of walking, with her cousins who are in town. Our kids immediately went ballistic over the prospect, so in front of them I reluctantly agreed. I understand that given my health condition it was a mistake to agree to this. Her cousins were extremely rude to us in the past, and I wanted to be present if our kids were going to meet them again. My wife is not capable of setting boundaries with her family or extended family so I feel like I need to be present for our children to not be exposed to any toxicity. This not an exaggeration, and I'm sure those of you familiar with narcissistic abuse can understand that setting boundaries is very difficult for someone with narcissistic parents. 

When the kids were put to bed I asked my wife if she truly wanted to go to the food fair, or if she just wants to please her cousin and she said she did. I told her that our daughter has severe allergies and she can't even eat anything there, and my wife shrugged it off.

The following lunch, I talked to my wife again and explained to her that I can barely walk, our daughter can't even eat anything there, and I would need to cancel my therapist prescribed games night, so can we reschedule something else tomorrow, which we did. She was very upset that she had to cancel the plans and ended up having a fight about it, but I negotiated for a different meet up the  following day which went over smoothly. 

I don't want to have fights with my wife, and I clearly have the inability to say no to her. How can I practice this boundary setting to avoid further issues? To be honest, I was offended that my wife even asked me to go given my current health and standing plans every Friday. I thought it was insensitive to do so, but is that an unreasonable expectation? How do I tell her that "me time" once a week for two hours is very important to me and according to my therapist my health. 

 

[Batya33]

I'm sorry for your health struggles and I am glad you're getting help.  You said you said yes to protect your kids in front of the rude cousins -so that's not an issue you can put on your wife.  You choose not to say no and you choose instead to argue/nag her into giving in.  This weeky video game sounds like it's something you came up with and your therapist agrees with - can it ever be rescheduled for family events or is it too complicated to do so? 

How do you tell her? By using your words as you likely tell your kids.  Direct and simple no apologies.  "For my health I want to have a [fill in details and timing] so with rare exception I won't be available during that time period for other activities." And then be accommodating if your wife wants me time.  In my marriage my me time is very early morning.  It's my daily exercise followed by shower/coffee/breakfast. I love working out in the morning for several reasons and this includes my physical and mental health. 

But it also wakes my husband briefly when I leave the apartment so early to go to our fitness center or outside.  But he accommodates me because he is a night owl and sleeps in which often disrupts my household cleaning routine.

And  this way I can get a lot of household tasks/errands done early morning so that he doesn't have to be involved -do them or drive me or pick me up -I accommodate him by shopping for our family where I can walk to.  Again it's a balance -for many years when our son was young I couldn't leave the apartment alone without him awake.  He slept in.  It was hard because back then our son got up really early. He is now 15.

  So unless I put him in the jogging stroller -weather permitting- I couldn't exercise when I wished to.  Now I can.  I don't have to bring this up because in our relationship we do a lot of give and take and teamwork and recognize that we have very different body clocks/routines/schedules.  It's also about saying no -it's a simple word. I say no a lot now to friends who want to talk on the phone or meet at night -I don't do that anymore with rare exception.  Sometimes it is awkward but with practice it feels really good to do what works for me. Yes I very often suggest alternatives  if at all possible. 

And I state it as a fact "I am signing off now/shutting down my phone" (at or before 9PM) or "no I can't meet up with you early morning when I work out because I have a really tight schedule for it". Some friends were judgey but if you state it simply and directly very often it is respected.  No approval seeking.

I told my husband after a disastrous lunch with a cousin's estranged husband I would never be at a meal with him again.  I do not do this sort of thing regularly at all -in fact it's very very rare.  I pick my battles.  But that was my boundary, I stated it, and it was respected. Practice simple and direct communication.  It gets easier.  Good luck and feel better.

[Pumpkin_Kun]

I think I get where you’re coming from. I need to be the one that takes care of my own needs and boundaries. 
 

Unfortunately Friday can’t really be rescheduled as it’s guys with their own families and carving that time out was darn near impossible to begin with. 

[ShySoul]

You tell her by just being honest and telling her. She has been there with you and seen the health issues you have struggled with. She knows how bad things have been for you and should want to help you feel well. Gently remind her that having these nights are good for your physical and mental health. Stay firm that this is your time that you need for you. Just as I'm sure you would be willing to give her me time or set aside time for just the two of you.

You handled things as well as could be expected. You were in a position of declining your wife or putting your children in an unhealthy situation. So you went with the action that was least likely to cause damage. You then tried to reason with your wife and explain the problems with the arrangement. You didn't ask to cancel entirely, just rearrange to a time when one of you didn't already have a prior commitment. Everything you did was fair and respectful to all people involved.

How she chose to respond is just that, her choice. You can't control it. All you can do is approach things fair, calm, and with a sense of love and compassion. 

[Cherylyn]

Speak up,  learn to be assertive and don't acquiesce. 

Instead of just you attending therapy appointments,  go to couples counseling so your wife will be on board with bettering your health and marriage.  Also,  the goal is to improve how to handle her racist relatives.  In addition,  teach your children how to navigate racism and boundaries because these are invaluable life lessons for their future when you're not always with them.  Family counseling including children is also helpful as well. 

Under a doctor's care,  incorporate exercise and diet into your regimen to improve your hypertension which leads to a myriad of serious ailments. 

[Pumpkin_Kun]

We have tried couple’s counseling, but it ranged from a therapist stating that racism by her family wasn’t a big deal to a counselor wasting 40 minutes of a 90 minute session telling us she was every bit as qualified as a psychotherapist. We finally have two of our own good psychotherapists and have decided to deal with our own personal issues before trying couples counseling again.

[Kwothe28]

I think "setting boundaries" works with reasonable people. With people who probably think you are sub-human and want to kill you? There is no setting boundaries there. It would be like "turning the other cheek" to a bully. It doesnt really stop bullying because they wont stop. Which brings me to a second point.

You have a difficult time saying "No". Hence why even setting boundaries wont work because there are not any boundaries to set. Your main boundary that you should set is your wife. And you still allowed her and her side of the family to walk all over you. You are not obligated to meet people who think bad of you based on your race or nationality and hang around them. Your wife can see them because they are her family, but you shouldnt see that people in any capacity whatsoever. You dont need to make excuses to your wife for it since she knows the issues at hand(although she seem to not respect you and your reasons) and you could just say "No". But instead you barely found excuse, let your wife pout out because of that, and still go next day. Where is the line in the sand there? They can think of you as bad as possible but you still see them unless its "game night"?

I suspect all your problems, from work to family to health, come from there. Its good that you go to therapist. It maybe helps with that. But you need to know that you would need to act in stuff like this. And not be a passive "enabler" who cant say "No".

[Pumpkin_Kun]

I agree, when it comes to my wife I need to learn to say no, and not care how that makes her feel, because I’m not responsible for her feelings.

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, Pumpkin_Kun said:

I agree, when it comes to my wife I need to learn to say no, and not care how that makes her feel, because I’m not responsible for her feelings.

Of course you should care how she feels.  You're married.  There's nothing to learn -there is just actual practice.  You say no in a polite and firm way. If she gets upset you can say "you wish I'd said yes and I see you're upset and in this situation I have to take care of me/my health."  It's all well and good to be right about not being "responsible for her feelings" but in practice in a marriage that generalized mantra really doesn't fly. Instead tell yourself you are taking care of you and you will say no when in your opinion it's potentially harmful or would require you to cancel your weekly plan, etc. Pick your battles.

[Pumpkin_Kun]

I have to disagree. Her feelings should have no say on my boundaries. This is what all my research as an enabler and what therapy has led me to. I need to stand my ground regardless if she disagrees with my boundaries for myself or my kids. 

[Batya33]

16 minutes ago, Pumpkin_Kun said:

I have to disagree. Her feelings should have no say on my boundaries. This is what all my research as an enabler and what therapy has led me to. I need to stand my ground regardless if she disagrees with my boundaries for myself or my kids. 

I agree with you. I didn’t write that. I said you can express that you care about her feelings AND express that you’re not going to react by doing what she wants in that particular situation. You don’t need to aggressively “stand your ground “. Setting boundaries and saying a polite snd firm no need not escalate to “I’m standing my ground!”  I never wrote that you should give in because of how she feels. It’s odd you’d read it that way given all my posts thus far. 
Also yes she absolutely gets a say in boundaries for your children. She is their co parent. She gets a say unless she is abusive to them. 
I often have to tell my son what the rules are. AND I say “I see you feel frustrated and disappointed and I’m sorry you’re feeling that way and you cannot skip (extracurricular activity ) today because you need to keep your commitments “

Obviously as his mama I get veto power over certain decisions. With my husband if it involves our son we have to reach an agreement.  The only times he defers to me is if I’m solo parenting and I’m making a choice in discipline while he’s away or setting a boundary having to do with whether he can stay up late or go to school late or not do a homework assignment. I defer to him if he is solo parenting.  Otherwise it’s teamwork. I don’t feel it’s appropriate for me to tell my husband “you can’t take him for ice cream after school because he had ice cream yesterday. “. I can say “he had ice cream yesterday so please don’t take him again. It’s too much “. See the difference?
 

[ShySoul]

20 minutes ago, Pumpkin_Kun said:

I have to disagree. Her feelings should have no say on my boundaries. This is what all my research as an enabler and what therapy has led me to. I need to stand my ground regardless if she disagrees with my boundaries for myself or my kids. 

There needs to be a balance. I've found that people who swing to far in one direction can often overcompensate and swing to far in the opposite direction, which can be just as damaging. Someone who allows themselves to be walked on and can't say no may feel like they have to say no and not compromise, no matter what. But that can backfire and just make the other person feel hurt and resentful.

I can understand standing your ground even when someone disagrees. I can even respect it depending on the circumstances. But it should be done in a respectful way that still shows compassion for the other person. No matter what the issue is, this is still your wife who you love. Her feelings should matter do you. And your feelings should matter to her.

It's not about standing your ground or having strict, unmoving boundaries. It's about creating compromise that is fair and reasonable for both parties. It's about each person respecting what the other person needs to feel happy and secure with themselves and ultimately build a better, stronger marriage.

[ShySoul]

4 hours ago, Pumpkin_Kun said:

We have tried couple’s counseling, but it ranged from a therapist stating that racism by her family wasn’t a big deal to a counselor wasting 40 minutes of a 90 minute session telling us she was every bit as qualified as a psychotherapist. We finally have two of our own good psychotherapists and have decided to deal with our own personal issues before trying couples counseling again.

There are a lot of therapists out there who really shouldn't be doing the job and should consider seeing someone themselves. 😄

If you think it is best to work on yourselves first, then do so. If you do try to go as a couple again, take the time to find somebody that is the right fit for both of you. Even if it takes several tries, it's better then going to the wrong person whose help will just be more damaging.

[Pumpkin_Kun]

1 hour ago, ShySoul said:

There needs to be a balance. I've found that people who swing to far in one direction can often overcompensate and swing to far in the opposite direction, which can be just as damaging. Someone who allows themselves to be walked on and can't say no may feel like they have to say no and not compromise, no matter what. But that can backfire and just make the other person feel hurt and resentful.

I can understand standing your ground even when someone disagrees. I can even respect it depending on the circumstances. But it should be done in a respectful way that still shows compassion for the other person. No matter what the issue is, this is still your wife who you love. Her feelings should matter do you. And your feelings should matter to her.

It's not about standing your ground or having strict, unmoving boundaries. It's about creating compromise that is fair and reasonable for both parties. It's about each person respecting what the other person needs to feel happy and secure with themselves and ultimately build a better, stronger marriage.

I guess I need to feel that my wife will not put me last if she wants input in my boundaries. I guess I feel I’ve been burnt a lot in the past to the point of it triggering me. 

[catfeeder]

Rather than attempting to resolve all future issues through one discussion, I would limit my scope to establishing one specific and reasonable approach to decision making—we do it in private, not in front of the kids.

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, Pumpkin_Kun said:

I guess I need to feel that my wife will not put me last if she wants input in my boundaries. I guess I feel I’ve been burnt a lot in the past to the point of it triggering me. 

To me that is the wrong perspective -by default she gets "input" if it has to do with your kids or if it affects your life as a couple -financial, jobs, etc - you don't get to control whether she gets that input by deciding if she "put you last" but you can use I statements and say "I feel disrespected when you make plans without checking with me first."  If it only affects you then you can acknowledge her feelings and also tell her "no this is my decision, I'm keeping my plan for the gaming night, told you about it in advance so you will have to make other arrangements if [you want to go out too]."  

 

[smackie9]

First off she's a grown a$$ woman...she can go herself...she doesn't need you to be there. That's call compromise. Just like your daughter shouldn't be restricted because she can't eat the food there...pack a lunch and snacks for her. As for toxic cousins/family...you can't protect the kids all the time. It's best to just communicate with your kids about it to help them understand their dynamics. Can't shield them from everyone and everything...they have to learn to navigate through this world so a little exposure of dysfunction won't kill them. Work with it, not against it. 

[Pumpkin_Kun]

15 hours ago, smackie9 said:

First off she's a grown a$$ woman...she can go herself...she doesn't need you to be there. That's call compromise. Just like your daughter shouldn't be restricted because she can't eat the food there...pack a lunch and snacks for her. As for toxic cousins/family...you can't protect the kids all the time. It's best to just communicate with your kids about it to help them understand their dynamics. Can't shield them from everyone and everything...they have to learn to navigate through this world so a little exposure of dysfunction won't kill them. Work with it, not against it. 

I think you misread the op. I never said she couldn’t go herself without the kids. I can appreciate that you think a little dysfunction won’t kill them, but I sure as hell ain’t exposing a 6 year old to that.

[Pumpkin_Kun]

15 hours ago, smackie9 said:

First off she's a grown a$$ woman...she can go herself...she doesn't need you to be there. That's call compromise. Just like your daughter shouldn't be restricted because she can't eat the food there...pack a lunch and snacks for her. As for toxic cousins/family...you can't protect the kids all the time. It's best to just communicate with your kids about it to help them understand their dynamics. Can't shield them from everyone and everything...they have to learn to navigate through this world so a little exposure of dysfunction won't kill them. Work with it, not against it. 

IMO compromise only works if both parties are operating in good faith. 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, Pumpkin_Kun said:

IMO compromise only works if both parties are operating in good faith. 

And if she is not you have a much bigger problem than being assertive - if a married couple with rare exception isn't operating "in good faith" and  there's no trust the other person is -what's the point without getting to the core of this huge breach of trust.  

Minor example.  Husband and I are trying to choose a shatterproof mirror for the bathroom.  I explained to him yesterday that in looking online it might say shatterproof in title but  you have to scroll down and see if it's really just "shatter resistant."  I don't always believe my husband listens well especially if the game is on/he is multitasking etc.  It can be annoying.  I'm sure I've done the same. 

This morning I see he emailed me some links last night for mirrors - suggestions. I see that they are only shatter resistant. I "feel" annoyed because part of me feels he simply didn't listen and didn't bother to read the descriptions although he sure focused on the ball game. 

But I believe by default he means well.  He had a busy day and did a lot work-wise and with our son.  So my response was gentle not accusatory or taking him to task assuming he did not mean well and simply didn't listen to his wife explaining something.  I do this very often and yes I do the self talk when I am annoyed and my response is consistent with "good faith" and "he means well."  If I didn't truly believe he acts in good faith 99% of the time and he means well 99% of the time I mean why bother being his wife and the mother of our son??

[smackie9]

On 7/22/2024 at 11:28 PM, Pumpkin_Kun said:

I think you misread the op. I never said she couldn’t go herself without the kids. I can appreciate that you think a little dysfunction won’t kill them, but I sure as hell ain’t exposing a 6 year old to that.

well you both obviously have different perspectives about it. 

You two need to properly work this out. You can't just keep stomping your foot every time she want's to see her family with her children. You can't trust your own partner to handle things?...then that's a problem in your marriage that's going to exasperate itself into a divorce. Got to find compromise, and have good honest communication to work this out.