Standing Alone: When Your Partner Disagrees

[yogacat]

17 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

OP -if you want to find reasons to criticize or even bash "men" and how "they" behave in romantic relationships or in dating there's tons out there for you to dig into. Certainly be selective in who you date, befriend, etc but if you come at it with this bias I mean -why bother.  And yes I have seen a bias in this thread that makes me concerned.

How am I bashing men? I said that I disliked that I didn't feel empathy for a woman that engaged in an affair, and he disagreed, and said that I can still show empathy for the woman, and I said- no, actually I can't. 

If anything, I was challenging my own behaviour and biases. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

My post was not about men in general or a bias towards them, but about my personal experience and reflections and how I've learned and grown to appreciate different opinions and viewpoints. So, I do think you're making a bit of a stretch here.

[Batya33]

17 minutes ago, yogacat said:

How am I bashing men? I said that I disliked that I didn't feel empathy for a woman that engaged in an affair, and he disagreed, and said that I can still show empathy for the woman, and I said- no, actually I can't. 

I didn't say anything about the behaviour of men. If anything, I was challenging my own behaviour and biases. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I didn't say you were bashing men.  I said your comments were generalizing. And that if you are looking for ways to bash men just peruse social media. If you're not I'm glad to hear it!

 I think as I wrote above that you are looking for reasons to be negative about romantic relationships and about how men interact in them and that you are voicing expectations like in your title that actually have little to do with your example. To me the example is not about whether a man should have your back in a romantic relationship but whether a person should try to judge and dictate how you're supposed to react to what you see as a person who made very bad and harmful and hurtful choices (meaning the woman who engaged in an affiar who you understandably didn't feel sympathy for ).

Should a partner have your back in the way you describe-separately? No I don't think to that extent or extreme.  Do I think there are people out there who play games in dating by acting all dominant in the hopes of it being a turn on -for sure. Do I think there are people who are dishonest with themselves when they act like yes people -for sure (read the lyrics to the I Made A Fist -I think from the show The Most Happy Fella) 

Do I think these extremes, this game playing crap has anything to do with whether in a serious romantic relationship a partner should have your back? No.  Not at all.  Game playing is game playing.  Sure we're human and all of us have acted in manipulative ways I bet to get what we want at some point -with rare exception - but in a mature adult romantic relationship whether you have each other's back, whether you have differences in opinion and how you respond -should be based on your very personal very individual bond, connection, MO - not some notion of gender stereotypes or some notion of how "men" act.

I never wrote and I do not think you are bashing men.  I think you've written quite a bit here and elsewhere that comes across to me as looking for excuses not to get close to a man including pondering whether "men" act a certain way. As I wrote I think the extent to which you generalize won't help you find a satisfying long term relationship -should you want one.

I am referring to your interaction and responses to comments and your broad brush descriptions of "men" - I commented on the specific situation -read what Seraphim wrote which I wholeheartedly agreed with -I don't think this particular man is an example that is related at all to dating, to Men or to gender -I agree with Seraphim that he was rude and acted like a jerk in that interaction.

[yogacat]

9 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I didn't say you were bashing men.  I said your comments were generalizing. I think as I wrote above that you are looking for reasons to be negative about romantic relationships and about how men interact in them and that you are voicing expectations like in your title that actually have little to do with your example. To me the example is not about whether a man should have your back in a romantic relationship but whether a person should try to judge and dictate how you're supposed to react to what you see as a person who made very bad and harmful and hurtful choices (meaning the woman who engaged in an affiar who you understandably didn't feel sympathy for ).

Should a partner have your back in the way you describe-separately? No I don't think to that extent or extreme.  Do I think there are people out there who play games in dating by acting all dominant in the hopes of it being a turn on -for sure. Do I think there are people who are dishonest with themselves when they act like yes people -for sure (read the lyrics to the I Made A Fist -I think from the show The Most Happy Fella) 

Do I think these extremes, this game playing crap has anything to do with whether in a serious romantic relationship a partner should have your back? No.  Not at all.  Game playing is game playing.  Sure we're human and all of us have acted in manipulative ways I bet to get what we want at some point -with rare exception - but in a mature adult romantic relationship whether you have each other's back, whether you have differences in opinion and how you respond -should be based on your very personal very individual bond, connection, MO - not some notion of gender stereotypes or some notion of how "men" act.

I never wrote and I do not think you are bashing men.  I think you've written quite a bit here and elsewhere that comes across to me as looking for excuses not to get close to a man including pondering whether "men" act a certain way. As I wrote I think the extent to which you generalize won't help you find a satisfying long term relationship -should you want one.

I am referring to your interaction and responses to comments and your broad brush descriptions of "men" - I commented on the specific situation -read what Seraphim wrote which I wholeheartedly agreed with -I don't think this particular man is an example that is related at all to dating, to Men or to gender -I agree with Seraphim that he was rude and acted like a jerk in that interaction.

You wrote:

"OP -if you want to find reasons to criticize or even bash "men" and how "they" behave in romantic relationships or in dating there's tons out there for you to dig into."

That's inferring that I am bashing men.

But to address your other points, yes, I think there is a kernel of truth when you say that I may be looking for reasons not to get close to a man. My upbringing has caused me to have a fear of intimacy and vulnerability, and I am aware that this has led me to have an emotional wall up. So perhaps my comments reflect that struggle, and I appreciate you pointing it out. And you're right, my examples may not have much to do with dating in general but they do play into my personal fears and struggles with intimacy.

That's why I slotted this under "Emotions and Feelings."...

But I do want to make it clear that I do not generalize all men in my experiences, and I recognize that each person is unique and not representative of a whole gender. I am simply reflecting on my past experiences and how they affect my thoughts and mindset in my current relationships. I apologize if my words came across as bashing men or implying that they all behave a certain way. That was not my intention.

Also, can I just say, I appreciate you pointing out these things and challenging my thoughts. It's important to have these discussions and continue to grow and learn. Thank you for that. X

When I shared my thoughts on the matter with this person, they responded by saying,

"I agree with you that cheating is wrong, but I couldn't help but feel sorry for her. Despite her being responsible for her own actions, I am only human and I have a tendency to sympathize with the underdog."

He didn't specifically say I was being inconsiderate, he said it is essential to provide individuals in pain with dignity and respect, regardless of their past mistakes. Offering both support and helpful insights is crucial in effectively assisting them.

That's all.

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, yogacat said:

You wrote:

"OP -if you want to find reasons to criticize or even bash "men" and how "they" behave in romantic relationships or in dating there's tons out there for you to dig into."

That's inferring that I am bashing men.

But to address your other points, yes, I think there is a kernel of truth when you say that I may be looking for reasons not to get close to a man. My upbringing has caused me to have a fear of intimacy and vulnerability, and I am aware that this has led me to have an emotional wall up. So perhaps my comments reflect that struggle, and I appreciate you pointing it out. And you're right, my examples may not have much to do with dating in general but they do play into my personal fears and struggles with intimacy.

That's why I slotted this under "Emotions and Feelings."...

But I do want to make it clear that I do not generalize all men in my experiences, and I recognize that each person is unique and not representative of a whole gender. I am simply reflecting on my past experiences and how they affect my thoughts and mindset in my current relationships. I apologize if my words came across as bashing men or implying that they all behave a certain way. That was not my intention.

Also, can I just say, I appreciate you pointing out these things and challenging my thoughts. It's important to have these discussions and continue to grow and learn. Thank you for that. X

Thanks. I did not mean to infer that - typed words are hard to discern particularly with what they may infer. I'm sorry I offended you. 

You are so unfailingly diplomatic in your responses, and I also appreciate your interest in learning and at least listening to other perspectives. 

I'm a person who came from an extremely dysfunctional family and I'm really not into -for myself -blaming my childhood on how I chose to interact as an adult in romantic relationships.  I for myself strive to make my own choices, own my own choices, and minimize blame of my parents.  They made mistakes.  Partly based on my father's mental illness diagnosed when he was a teenager. Had he not agreed to treatment -both therapeutic, medicinal, hospitalizations - it would have been an even more stressful and dysfunctional upbrining.

But my drive to be a wife and mother in a healthy relationship with the right match for me and my drive to overcome my fears of failing and reach for the stars in my career meant I had to do tough love and not succumb to the dysfunctional family reasoning. I totally get that doesn't work for you and perhaps you don't want long term romantic commitments badly enough.  I'm just a bit allergic to "how I was brought up caused me to do X" - for myself only.  For no one else.  Certainly not for you. If your mindset works for you -and I think it does because you are totally fine not being married and not working towards being married or long term committed then we all make choices on what we're going to work on.  Limited time, limited resources and motivation plays a role. 

[yogacat]

13 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Thanks. I did not mean to infer that - typed words are hard to discern particularly with what they may infer. I'm sorry I offended you. 

You are so unfailingly diplomatic in your responses, and I also appreciate your interest in learning and at least listening to other perspectives. 

I'm a person who came from an extremely dysfunctional family and I'm really not into -for myself -blaming my childhood on how I chose to interact as an adult in romantic relationships.  I for myself strive to make my own choices, own my own choices, and minimize blame of my parents.  They made mistakes.  Partly based on my father's mental illness diagnosed when he was a teenager. Had he not agreed to treatment -both therapeutic, medicinal, hospitalizations - it would have been an even more stressful and dysfunctional upbrining.

But my drive to be a wife and mother in a healthy relationship with the right match for me and my drive to overcome my fears of failing and reach for the stars in my career meant I had to do tough love and not succumb to the dysfunctional family reasoning. I totally get that doesn't work for you and perhaps you don't want long term romantic commitments badly enough.  I'm just a bit allergic to "how I was brought up caused me to do X" - for myself only.  For no one else.  Certainly not for you. If your mindset works for you -and I think it does because you are totally fine not being married and not working towards being married or long term committed then we all make choices on what we're going to work on.  Limited time, limited resources and motivation plays a role. 

Thank you. 

I strive to be diplomatic -being diplomatic was a survival strategy honed since I was forced to attempt to keep my parents from offing each other starting when I was somewhere between 7-8.  I probably started trying to diplomacy them into being nice to one another.  Ugh... so much noise.

I do want to also say that I don't fall back 100% on my upbringing as an excuse for my actions or choices. I am aware that ultimately, I am responsible for my decisions and behaviors. But I would be lying if I said that it doesn't still affect me and have an impact on my choices and mindset. I'm not going to do x, y, and z and if it's wrong say, "oh it's because of how I was raised." I have been working on it for many years, it's just something that I am consciously aware of.

The whole marriage thing, never for me, really, I never had that biological urge to procreate before my life was halfway over. I never had a NEED to have a husband. I don't conform well, pretty much never have.

There was one point in my life, where I was dating someone, and I envisioned us being married but that is the only time in my life that it ever popped into my mind. 

However, I respect and admire your drive to create a healthy relationship and family. It takes a strong person to overcome their upbringing and strive to create something better for themselves. Everyone has their own journey and what works for one person may not work for another.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and understanding mine. It's a pleasure to have these discussions with someone who can respectfully challenge each other's thoughts. 

[Batya33]

15 minutes ago, yogacat said:

The whole marriage thing, never for me, really, I never had that biological urge to procreate before my life was halfway over. I never had a NEED to have a husband. I don't conform well, pretty much never have.

Same exact for me.  I never had an urge to procreate, I never had a need for a husband -with exceptions -there were times I felt extremely needy for romantic attention from a man, extremely needy to be able to say I have a boyfriend.  I think many of us have needy times.

I absolutely preferred to have a biological child.  And I knew early on I'd adopt if needed because my urge was to be a mother, to raise a child.  Not to procreate.  I didn't need a husband.  I wanted a husband who was the right match for me.  I needed to feel reasonably sure and excited. I absoluately needed not to settle after almost settling a number of times and seeing friends settle.

I am not a person who conformed or wanted to.  I took the long way around and I am judged regularly for not conforming .I don't drive.  I don't live in the suburbs.   I had "only one" child. When I was single in my 30s I was judged for not conforming by being Still Single. I didn't marry to conform.  I didn't have a child to conform.  I also am not averse to conformity.

There are upsides to following traditional paths but I do so because that is what I choose to do.  It is much easier to be married in the world I live in.  It is presumptively admirable to be a married mom.  On the downside as a mom I've been regularly targeted if my child acts or omits to act in a certain way. If I parent too helicopter or if I am too hands off in the eyes of the people around me who often believe it;s their right to judge a parent. During covid we were judged galore - too much screen time/too risky as far as not enough social distancing/too protective saying no to a playdate/a traitor to the public school system when we opted for private post-covid.  

It's not limited to single people.  There will always be people who judge. It circles back to your concern about a partner having your back. When my husband's uncle laughed uproariously on a telephone call when he asked me how I was doing with my newborn son and I said "it's great but so much work/I'm exhausted" - apparently I must be joking -I didn't expect my husband to call his uncle and tell him how we both decided to have me home and how yes it was darn exhausting. 

But I did expect him to have my back when his father insisted I wake up our son from a nap so he could see him even though he'd see him the next day.  My husband didn't.  He made me get the baby.  The screaming baby.  Was I mad? Yes he should have told his father I agree with my wife that we shouldn't wake the baby you will see him tomorrow. 

But guess what my husband is human and his dad at that time was in his 80s and this was his only grandson.  He in my view made a mistake not being on my side.  He let me put the screaming baby back in his crib two minutes later and he saw how I hung my head in sadness and dismay.  He prioritized his father.  We're still married. 

I love him very much and I think he was wrong.  He loves me very much and there was at least one time he felt I didn't have my back.  Relationships are messy that way. From the outside looking in I can see starting a thread "OMG go to counseling how dare he throw you under the bus, who wakes a sleeping baby??" 6 years later his father died.  So maybe its one memory where he can tell himself - I prioritized my father spending as much time as possible with the only grandson he loved to the moon and back.  My wife, his mother, had to take a back seat in my view because I knew my father wouldn't live to see his grandson grow up. 

That's why I didn't post about it back then.  Because sometimes what is seen as right, as just as fair as how married people are supposed to support each other -is -true -but in the mishmash messiness of romantic relationships what is seen as run to the therapist or an outright dealbreaker -what he lied about what he did with the box of pasta from the mac and cheese? (yes, actually he did I caught him in that lie) - is in the individual couple's perspective not about "did he have my back then" (nope) was he honest with me (nope) - but this larger picture based on love, history, future goals, why you married, why you procreated so singling out one or two examples isn't going to bear helpful fruit. 

As we dug deeper into your broad title and your specific example what I think is that it's in a vacuum mostly and what's more true is what you wrote above. 

[catfeeder]

15 hours ago, Seraphim said:

Just remember a yes man is also someone that will be deeply resentful in time . 

I’ve always been the one who reaches that finish line first. Yes men disappoint me by putting me out there on the limb all by myself to manage all decisions. Who wants that after managing all day at work? In fact, I tend to trust the people at work more because the ones who push back and assert their opinions teach me about their capabilities. A yes man makes me question his judgment, and that makes me nervous. I can assert my own judgment alone. I’d rather have a collaborator who is in my corner and can hold his own.

Yoga, did this disagreement take place in front of the woman, or in private?

[Cherylyn]

Whenever I've disagreed with my husband,  I discussed my disagreement with him.  He's a good listener and I've always valued his insights,  wise counsel,  coaching and invaluable advice. 

He told me that people actually respect you more if you defend yourself as opposed to relying on someone else speaking up for you.  While I agreed with him,  I've also told him that I needed his support and he should be on the same page with me especially if there was blatant injustice thrust upon me.  I can't and won't always soldier alone.  He eventually realized that he should be my staunchest ally if there was an intolerable transgression committed.  I'm referring to serious offenses and not trivial matters.  He has stepped up on my behalf and I'm extremely grateful for my husband being my buffer and shield against this cruel world if the opportunity were to present itself whether it's some mean in-laws or relatives in particular. 

The advantage of having my husband to lean on is that I've noticed perpetrators don't attack me anymore because they have to go through my husband to get to me. 🤗 They've realized he's an obstacle and in alignment with me so they're less apt to attack me.  They're no longer a threat to me which is a great comfort and builds my self confidence.  I don't have to go it alone because he is there to catch me if I fall.  He's always been my right hand man;  my rock,  my steady.  I can lean on him.  I consider myself incredibly fortunate and blessed to have him at my side.  He has my back and I his.  

In times of crisis,  I've defended my husband, too.  When we were at a discount store last year,  we were at the check out and the cashier asked my husband to inform the customer standing behind us that we were the last customers to be served because she's closing her lane.  The customer behind us was to be directed to another lane and another available cashier.  Therefore,  my husband conveyed the cashier's message, nicely and very politely informed the customer behind us that this lane is closed and we're the last customer for this lane (line).  The customer stared at candy,  didn't bother to look up at my husband and completely dismissed him.  Hence,  my husband gently reminded this customer again that this lane is closed.   Then all hell broke loose and she really lit into him!  👿 The customer shouted this to my husband at the top of her lungs:  "Shut the ________ up! 🤬 I've heard you!  You don't have to tell me that this lane is closed!"  We were stunned and couldn't believe this nut job going off like this!  My husband wasn't quite prepared for this nasty woman,  well actually this ________ acting like the Tasmanian Devil.  👿  Everyone at the store stopped in their tracks and were witnesses to this volatile scene.  Even the customers at the back of the store were staring at us.  I told the customer:  "You're obnoxiously rude and shameful!  Don't you talk to my husband that way!"  I noticed she was wearing an 'Uber Eats' courier t-shirt.  Uber Eats woman amazingly didn't talk back to me much to my astonishment.  😲 Then as we paid for our merchandise and walked away,  she yells this to us:  "Your husband doesn't have to repeat himself!"  I told her loudly:  "You ignored him!"  She yelled,  "I can say whatever I want and I've got my bank account to prove it!"  As we left,  I said loudly:  "Yes and you sound like it!" 😉 I caught her off guard.  She didn't know what to say. 😵 🥴  I guess I look meek but she was shocked that I wasn't meek.  She couldn't think of any retorts.  Good.  I was able to shut her up.  I was surprised at myself because I was shy for the greater part of my life.  My husband wasn't about to engage in a shouting match with this 'Uber Eats' bleep but I had no qualms nor hesitation saying exactly how I felt.  We weren't about to battle it out with a bunch of foul 4-letter words with her but I silenced her and I'm proud of it!  I've teased my husband that this 'Uber Eats' courier will deliver his meals to him.  (We cook at home,  rarely dine out nor do take out.)  This public outburst and spectacle laced with foul language has never happened to us in our lives.  There's a first to everything,  I guess. 

Yes,  I always want my husband to have my back.  Yes indeed.  I would do the same for him as mentioned previously. 

We have differences of opinion but generally we share the same beliefs,  values,  morals and principles.  We don't have situations where we're on complete opposite ends of the spectrum.  We're pretty much in lockstep overall and it's a true partnership.  We know we can depend on each other which goes without saying.

If I disagree with my husband,  I simply tell him in private.  We're discreet and resolve issues calmly and maturely.  Whenever I explain anything thoroughly,  he comprehends and he's on board the majority of time.  If there's a disagreement,  we respect each others opinions and leave it at that.  Generally, it's relatively minor.  We often banter and make light of it.  It's not that serious. 

(Btw,  I've done the same for our sons as well and same with my husband for our sons when called for.) 

The real, true and exact definition of 'emotional intelligence' is placing yourself in other people's shoes or also known as (aka) empathy.   Emotional intelligence is treating others the way you would want to be treated aka respect.  There is no fancy spin on emotional intelligence because it's down to basic human decency and treating each other with dignity. 

As for your situation @yogacat,  I thought it was right of the man to tell you that you weren't sensitive or considerate of a person.  Perhaps he was trying to teach you to be more careful and considerate in the future.  He was being respectful and sensitive to you because if he did not care,  he would let you continue not being sensitive and considerate of this person you speak of or it can be anyone in your future.  It's called constructive criticism and I agree,  at first it does sound insensitive and inconsiderate to express one's opinion about your unacceptable behavior but it's actually helpful so you'll be more mindful in the future.  I'm actually grateful to hear it if it's done privately and not meant to publicly humiliate me.  I would consider this advice as a learning experience.  I'd readjust and I wouldn't have felt offended at all because it's not about me being sensitive or perceiving this man's comment as inconsiderate.  It's about a lesson regarding my improved manners for the future and treating people better. 

Without knowing the context,  it's hard for me to say who was right in your case but from your information,  I gave you my opinion.  It depends on specifics and what the topic was about before I can assess.

[rainbowsandroses]

I got to thinking about this more and I think it's difficult to assess because we have very little context, which is important at least imo.

Like, what is your relationship with this man?  Is he a man you're dating?  Talking with on line?  A discussion on a message forum like ENA?

How badly is this woman hurting?  Is she suicidal?  What were her reasons for the affair?  Is it something she regrets and feels remorseful for?

These are rhetorical answers, there's no need to answer. 

I'm only bringing it up because the situation is so ambiguous, there are many different factors that determine how empathetic and compassionate one should be in any given situation.

It's not enough to say she had an affair and therefore I feel no empathy because affairs are wrong. 

Context is everything or a big part of it.

JMO

 

[yogacat]

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Same exact for me.  I never had an urge to procreate, I never had a need for a husband -with exceptions -there were times I felt extremely needy for romantic attention from a man, extremely needy to be able to say I have a boyfriend.  I think many of us have needy times.

I absolutely preferred to have a biological child.  And I knew early on I'd adopt if needed because my urge was to be a mother, to raise a child.  Not to procreate.  I didn't need a husband.  I wanted a husband who was the right match for me.  I needed to feel reasonably sure and excited. I absoluately needed not to settle after almost settling a number of times and seeing friends settle.

I am not a person who conformed or wanted to.  I took the long way around and I am judged regularly for not conforming .I don't drive.  I don't live in the suburbs.   I had "only one" child. When I was single in my 30s I was judged for not conforming by being Still Single. I didn't marry to conform.  I didn't have a child to conform.  I also am not averse to conformity.

There are upsides to following traditional paths but I do so because that is what I choose to do.  It is much easier to be married in the world I live in.  It is presumptively admirable to be a married mom.  On the downside as a mom I've been regularly targeted if my child acts or omits to act in a certain way. If I parent too helicopter or if I am too hands off in the eyes of the people around me who often believe it;s their right to judge a parent. During covid we were judged galore - too much screen time/too risky as far as not enough social distancing/too protective saying no to a playdate/a traitor to the public school system when we opted for private post-covid.  

It's not limited to single people.  There will always be people who judge. It circles back to your concern about a partner having your back. When my husband's uncle laughed uproariously on a telephone call when he asked me how I was doing with my newborn son and I said "it's great but so much work/I'm exhausted" - apparently I must be joking -I didn't expect my husband to call his uncle and tell him how we both decided to have me home and how yes it was darn exhausting. 

But I did expect him to have my back when his father insisted I wake up our son from a nap so he could see him even though he'd see him the next day.  My husband didn't.  He made me get the baby.  The screaming baby.  Was I mad? Yes he should have told his father I agree with my wife that we shouldn't wake the baby you will see him tomorrow. 

But guess what my husband is human and his dad at that time was in his 80s and this was his only grandson.  He in my view made a mistake not being on my side.  He let me put the screaming baby back in his crib two minutes later and he saw how I hung my head in sadness and dismay.  He prioritized his father.  We're still married. 

I love him very much and I think he was wrong.  He loves me very much and there was at least one time he felt I didn't have my back.  Relationships are messy that way. From the outside looking in I can see starting a thread "OMG go to counseling how dare he throw you under the bus, who wakes a sleeping baby??" 6 years later his father died.  So maybe its one memory where he can tell himself - I prioritized my father spending as much time as possible with the only grandson he loved to the moon and back.  My wife, his mother, had to take a back seat in my view because I knew my father wouldn't live to see his grandson grow up. 

That's why I didn't post about it back then.  Because sometimes what is seen as right, as just as fair as how married people are supposed to support each other -is -true -but in the mishmash messiness of romantic relationships what is seen as run to the therapist or an outright dealbreaker -what he lied about what he did with the box of pasta from the mac and cheese? (yes, actually he did I caught him in that lie) - is in the individual couple's perspective not about "did he have my back then" (nope) was he honest with me (nope) - but this larger picture based on love, history, future goals, why you married, why you procreated so singling out one or two examples isn't going to bear helpful fruit. 

As we dug deeper into your broad title and your specific example what I think is that it's in a vacuum mostly and what's more true is what you wrote above. 

Your incident reminds me of when I was dating my now most recent ex. His mother made a comment about my hair saying it was too youngish and he told her not to say that. I loved that he defended me and didn’t let her get away with saying that to me.

But then, he had sort of no tact when I’d open up to him about my feelings over a vehicle purchase I wanted to make, he made a comment "my parents and I think you should save your money" and save it for the future if we were to get married. Marriage initially, neither of us wanted, but he changed his view point mid-way through our relationship. I was a bit taken back that he approached me saying "me and my parents think, x, y, and z."

To your other points, yes, when it comes to “he had my back or not” there’s many variables before it’s dealbreaker territory. 

[Cherylyn]

@yogacat.  It was kind of your ex to tell his mother not to talk to you like that (about the unkind hair comment). 

As for the 'my parents and I think you should save your money' comment,  that comment was none of their business.  It's your business,  your choice and your decision regarding how and when to spend your hard money on a vehicle or anything.  It was awfully presumptuous of them to advise you to save your money in the event of marriage to your ex.  Also,  I would be taken aback that he confided too much to his parents when he should've kept your info to himself.  He didn't exercise discretion and shared too much. 

I support having each others backs but it really depends on the context before determining what qualifies as having each others backs.

[yogacat]

24 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

It was kind of your ex to tell his mother not to talk to you like that (about the unkind hair comment). 

As for the 'my parents and I think you should save your money' comment,  that comment was none of their business.  It's your business,  your choice and your decision regarding how and when to spend your hard money on a vehicle or anything.  It was awfully presumptuous of them to advise you to save your money in the event of marriage to your ex.  Also,  I would be taken aback that he confided too much to his parents when he should've kept your info to himself.  He didn't exercise discretion and shared too much. 

I support having each others backs but it really depends on the context before determining what qualifies as having each others backs.

I concur.

He was oddly close with his family, which, I wanted to respect, and eventually, things ironed out with them. Initially though they reminded me of "Everybody Loves Raymond" and mom had a whole different expectation for them and she wasn't shy about telling them either. 

With regard to this recent incident. The woman having the affair. I am not going to focus on it anymore (haha), I think it's premature to focus on one comment and I could have opted not to say anything and while I can't feign empathizing with her pain considering the pain she inflicted on others, I didn't really need to state anything either and I could have chosen something neutral.   

[catfeeder]

3 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Yoga, did this disagreement take place in front of the woman, or in private?

I may have missed the answer to this. Asking again.

[Cherylyn]

1 hour ago, yogacat said:

I concur.

He was oddly close with his family, which, I wanted to respect, and eventually, things ironed out with them. Initially though they reminded me of "Everybody Loves Raymond" and mom had a whole different expectation for them and she wasn't shy about telling them either. 

With regard to this recent incident. The woman having the affair. I am not going to focus on it anymore (haha), I think it's premature to focus on one comment and I could have opted not to say anything and while I can't feign empathizing with her pain considering the pain she inflicted on others, I didn't really need to state anything either and I could have chosen something neutral.   

My MIL (mother-in-law) is the same as the Marie Barone character on "Everybody Loves Raymond."  They  look alike,  dress alike,  everything alike!  🥴  MIL is a clone of Marie Barone!  Similarities are uncanny.  Those types of people are impossible to be compatible with.  😒

Your original option of not saying anything would've been best and most wise.  Hindsight is always 20 / 20.  You don't have to empathize her pain or the pain she inflicted upon others.  There are times when it's best to say nothing.  It requires less effort on your part and the less said,  the better.  I agree with you.  Remaining neutral is best and much safer.  Better to err on the side of caution by remaining silent.   Don't get involved.  Stay out of it.

[mylolita]

Evening Yoga! 
 

I think generally you are with a lot of like minded people not being impressed by anyone who has an affair. I don’t have much time or sympathy for it at all, but these are all opinions and this sounds like, a gossip type, discussion about someone else, situation? It doesn’t involve you or the man you’re talking to directly I am guessing? 
 

I will just say this.

 

In a relationship, everyone operates differently, there is no strict rule book. You have to work things out and get into your own unique groove.

 

Personally, people need trust, and freedom. You can’t control someone you love, it stifles them. I’m not saying you do this - but subconsciously by needing them to stick up for you, agree, or say the right thing at the right time, is not letting them fly their own crew. You may be together, but you’re both still individuals.

 

I’ll give you an example, if I can! 
 

Recently, as you know, me and my sister had a huge, heated argument on holiday together. I knew my husband was sat on the landing above where neither of us could see. He never interfered or came to defend me, he just listened. The next day, I asked him to drive her home and he did, even though he probably didn’t want to, and didn’t agree with our argument or how I handled things. 
 

I’m sure he probably apologised to my sister on that two hour drive home. They may have even spoken about me.

 

Did I ask? No. Do I need him to tell me “you were right darling”. No! Did I want him to come down those stairs and tell my sister off? Definitely not! 
 

Freedom is the key, in my opinion. You have to set the other one free, let them do their own things, think their own thoughts and say what they want - or stay quiet.

 

The only time I would say your partner should step up is if there is a threat to you, or if someone is being blatantly disrespectful or aggressive. My husband has done that before, once I off handedly told him a story about a time in school where a guy pinned me by my throat to a wall. I found out through someone else, without me knowing, he’d gone to his house and threatened him, told him to never even look me in the eye again. This had happened 7 years ago and he shot out there for me, unknown to me at the time!

 

If this agreement in unison for the majority, or in public, is something you need in a potential relationship Yoga, I would suggest maybe you should look for someone who is very similar minded to yourself! Maybe even with a similar temperament and personality? You may be more likely to agree on things - big and small - that are important to you! 
 

x
 

 

[Capricorn3]

12 hours ago, yogacat said:

I don't expect someone to agree with me 100% of the time, we can have healthy disagreement and discussions on other topics, BUT.... when it comes to what I deem as non-negotiables, I need someone who is on the same page as me.

I don't expect a partner to like my taste in music or agree with my political views, but I do expect them to share my beliefs on things like honesty, respect, and equality. So, I guess, I am more speaking from that perspective with this particular incident.

I wouldn't want someone that agreed with me just to please me, but I would want them to at least understand and respect my values and beliefs.

I understand.  Yes, it should be about matching morals and values and respect etc.  When you have that, everything else falls into place.

[LootieTootie]

11 hours ago, yogacat said:

When I shared my thoughts on the matter with this person, they responded by saying,

"I agree with you that cheating is wrong, but I couldn't help but feel sorry for her. Despite her being responsible for her own actions, I am only human and I have a tendency to sympathize with the underdog."

 

Okay now that I see this, I take my response post back. It looks like he didnt make you feel bad or even disapproved of how you felt. He handled it quite well. Told you what he thought and felt, and you did the same. If you are feeling somewhat unpleased, then maybe Batya might be on to something 😁

5 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I got to thinking about this more and I think it's difficult to assess because we have very little context, which is important at least imo.

 

Yes. agree.

5 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

The advantage of having my husband to lean on is that I've noticed perpetrators don't attack me anymore because they have to go through my husband to get to me. 🤗 They've realized he's an obstacle and in alignment with me so they're less apt to attack me.  They're no longer a threat to me which is a great comfort and builds my self confidence.  I don't have to go it alone because he is there to catch me if I fall.  He's always been my right hand man;  my rock,  my steady.  I can lean on him.  I consider myself incredibly fortunate and blessed to have him at my side.  He has my back and I his.  

In times of crisis,  I've defended my husband, too. 

Yes echo everything you said, Cherylyn, because it aligns with how I am with my husband. I also can't stand my FIL and I don't say or do anything - which is doing nothing in order to keep the peace.

Talking about standing up for your spouse, my husband and I have publicly defended each other. It's not a common thing but those are the moments you know your partner really has your back. There's been times where we said "ops my bad" in public, yet the rude piece of crap person kept on berating and one of us would stand up for the other. I've done it when someone yelled at my husband thinking he "stole" an open-seating table at an outdoor restaurant. And he's actually defended me before against a mob attack! Not kidding, I almost backed into a group of teenage kids that were running around and being straight hooligans at a shopping center parking lot. I didnt see them because they were running around. I said sorry when I stopped right in time, but NOOOO these kids were so mad that I almost hit one of their friends. So they're hitting the trunk of the car, calling me all kinds of names, telling me I can't drive. Husband gets out and yells at them to not hit the car and we both said sorry again. One of the kids had a real attitude and his friends were just egging him to fight my husband because as my husband was trying to talk to them and apologize that we didnt see them because they were running, they kept calling me a b word who can't drive. Of course it goes on and on, my husband is now just furious and he starts raging at them. My husband has a booming voice so the kids are all getting drowned out and all I remember seeing is the kids are backing away since the kid with the biggest attitude is the first one walking away. I guess since the kid with the biggest attitude didnt want to fight, none of the other kids wanted to fight. But any way, I think once they saw that my husband wasn't backing down and he was angry, they got scared and left.

Ugh teenagers ! I wished all teenagers were like your kid, Batya 💜

 

[yogacat]

16 minutes ago, Capricorn3 said:

I understand.  Yes, it should be about matching morals and values and respect etc.  When you have that, everything else falls into place.

Cappy, thanks!

Maybe on some level, initially I felt since he was seemingly supportive of said woman having affair (not her actually having the affair, but saying she should still be treated with dignity and respect) that that meant he didn't value the institution of marriage.

I know I say I am not for marriage, but I still view it as a very serious monumental step. Something very sacred. Even with liberal divorce laws - it is expensive and financially, emotionally and spiritually damaging to all involved - including kids.

So I believe it is not something to be treated lightly. 

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

Ugh teenagers ! I wished all teenagers were like your kid, Batya 💜

LOL so sorry to derail -will also respond -when he was 9 or 10 the bus monitor -who was one year older  -accused him of calling someone that word referring to your behind plus hole.  The word that begins with the letter b (not the one that begins with a - like the tiny bit of cigarette).  My son was soooo upset because he'd been defending himself and he said he did NOT use that word! The driver was going to write him up! So I email the principal -yup Momma Bear had his back to explain that the student unfaiirly accused my son of using foul language.

Two hours later.  He tells me "I didn't use that word -I called him an - behind plus hole but with the A in front not the B.  OMG.  So I email the principal AGAIN -"Im so sorry -he did use a bad word and it wasn't that one it was [fill in blank with A]

Upshot was the principal thought it was hilarious that my son was so insistent -and innocently so (he didn't know the a version was "worse" than the b version lol). 

About having back -yes - we want to stand up for our spouses in those times for sure - it's like the Mama Bear thing except you do it in an adult fashion. Last year I saw this rude woman deliberately shove my husband aside in a subway station in Europe.  It was not an accident at all -she was just an entitled type.  I was furious and yes I know I know people are crazy, be careful. So I found a way to get in her path where she was standing and "accidentally" bump into her in quite a disruptive way -not violent at all just -annoying to her.  I couldn't let it go.  I had that same feeling of wanting to have his back.

Also I am a fan of keeping the peace -I also wrote how I said nothing and will say nothing now about my FIL -particularly since he has passed.  My husband loves to tell our son the good memories -and there are many -and I will also never tell my son my other not so great memories/opinions.  Even if my husband shared an opinion my late FIL had that I didn't agree with I'd be quiet.  Not even as a joke and he and I joke around all the time.

I also am not sure we can pick people who align with us in other than the big ways-the core values.  Like someone else wrote people change -hopefully not the core but life situations change us -a parent who needs caregiving, having a child, moving to a new neighborhood, buying a home, losing a job/changing careers.  People can temporarily or longer be less positive or perhaps moreso. 

Or someone can get involved in Crossfit (like that other thread) or a similar tight knit group and priorities shift and tensions can arise.  but if at core you respect and admire each other and are open to fine tuining and tweaking how you communicate as needed -those changes simply -is what it is and you can weather the "storm".  but you can't expect the person in front of you to have alllll the same opinions and perspectives forever.  Or even the same temperament/attitude. 

[mylolita]

These posts have been so true! ✨
 

Very insightful from you long time relationship folks! Golden nuggets of advice here I will also be taking home! 
 

x

[Lambert]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:34 PM, yogacat said:

But I never wanted him to do it JUST because he was my partner, I wanted him to defend my stance because we shared mutual beliefs or values, and he believed in what I had to say.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.  Because this statement seems to conflict with the rest of what you're saying. 

My take is, if you share mutual beliefs and values and believed in your words than you don't disagree. And not standing up for you, they are also betraying themselves.

 

[yogacat]

10 minutes ago, Lambert said:

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.  Because this statement seems to conflict with the rest of what you're saying. 

My take is, if you share mutual beliefs and values and believed in your words than you don't disagree. And not standing up for you, they are also betraying themselves.

I am saying in this particular incident, I did not want him to defend my stance just because. I wanted him to genuinely believe in what I had to say, and stand up for it because they shared those same beliefs and values. 

I have a male friend since I was eight years old and another for over 20 years and it's interesting to see the variances in platonic friendships vs romantic relationships in terms of disagreeing. 

Anyway, I have gotten great feedback here, and I appreciate those that took the time to respond.

I'm moving on from it.

[Lambert]

Hi @Cherylyn!

I know what you mean... I've always tried to follow the praise in public, criticize in private. lol.

Separate from romance, it can be hurtful if a conversation turns into something that requires defending in general, but it can also be the point of growth. 

I try to consider what I say as a reflection of me, not others. So it seems like a lot to expect another to be able to speak for me. After all, no one agrees all the time. 

 

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, yogacat said:

I wanted him to genuinely believe in what I had to say, and stand up for it because they shared those same beliefs and values. 

He may have and in this particular situation saw a reason to make an exception despite stating it broadly -after all he's not  your partner and you don't know him well enough to know how he's processing something despite stating it as a broad belief that one should feel sympathy for someone who caused their own pain -and others' pain.

.  For example some FB friends are accusing those who watched a certain debate and criticized the performance as discriminating against people with disabilities/medical or mental health conditions.  I absolutely do not discriminate against people with disabilities.  It is a core value.  AND if I had a discussion with that person (which I won't, ever -not worth it) that person might believe my analysis of the performance was discriminatory and believe I didn't share her core values.  She would be wrong in her analysis of my opinion and also short sighted IMO. 

[Lambert]

2 minutes ago, yogacat said:

I'm moving on from it.

Thanks for clarifying. I get you now. That is a a disappointment... good to chat about it!