Expectations for Sex and Intimacy

[Rex53]

I have been with my wife for 9 years (married for 1) and we have 2 children together (ages 4 and 2). To this point, I have been the bread-winner who has financed our lives while she finishes school to be a hygienist. I took on this role while I was still finishing school myself (psychologist). My father passed in 2020 and left enough to me to get our lives started with a house and living expenses while I got through school. I always felt guilty about benefiting from his death and using these funds that I did not earn. I was recently hired at a top school in my state that has k-12 which my children will be able to attend for their entire school careers (basically a private school education for free). I feel as though I have made significant moves that have solidified our families future and it is the most accomplished I have ever felt. However, my wifes reaction was a mild "Yay, you did it honey, I'm so happy for you.". There was no kiss, no bragging to her friends/family, no real genuine reaction one would expect in this scenario. Now on the surface, this seems minor but it speaks to an even deeper issue we've been having for some time. 

Now I understand as a man it is common that I would have stronger sexual appetite than that of my female partner, but at times hers appears to be non-existent. I have been with this woman a long time and I know how to turn her on, but lately it seems that nothing works and she is closed to the idea of it. Even seeming disgusted at times. a few days a go I rubbed her back and she kept insisting nothing was going to happen even though that had been established beforehand (as if it was the worst possible outcome that I try to be intimate). Last night I walked in with the lotion and I barely stepped in the room before she hit me with "Oh honey, I'm tired tonight." (Side note, I found that when she rejects me she commonly tries to change the subject, in this case saying "wow did you see that lightning?" after saying she was tired). Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, right? But it's always some excuse as to why we can't have sex. This leads to me becoming frustrated due to my own insecurities and internalizing my feelings. I should note that 1 rejection does not cause me to become upset, but when it is several days in a row of denial or if she leads me on and shuts me down right as we get into it. I will typically be quiet and look a bit down for a day while I mentally build myself back up. The problem is, during this time period of internal shame, she will not let me be. She will ask aggressively "Is this because I didn't have sex with you last night?" to which I always say no. I always say no because I can tell that is a problem to her, which I understand. As a man I have no right to her body or decisions. My problem is that my right shouldn't factor in. Shouldn't a woman WANT to have sex with her husband? So I constantly beat myself up and ask myself "Why am I not good enough?" "Am I bad in bed", "does she not truly love me?" or the dreaded "Is she getting her intimacy elsewhere?".

She has never given me a reason to believe she is cheating, but allow me to paint a picture. Her best friend has a house which she bought with her boyfriend who is now in prison. To help pay their bills, she moved in a buddy of his to help. When my wife hangs out with her friend, she typically goes over to the girls house. This is fine with me as I want her to get out and see her friends. The problem is, the male roommate is always there, always having a fire in the backyard, and always has a friend with him. I attended one of these fires and the vibe absolutely changed (got quieter) when I arrived among everyone except my wife. My wife wore her most risque' bathing suit to go in their pool (again, not happy, but it's her decision) which was only big enough to fit 2-3 people before you would be on top of one another. That rubbed me the wrong way. Then my man says he is going to set up some music and brings out a tripod (like the one used for films) and sat his phone on it with not benefit to auditory amplification. That along with not trusting these guys because of the nature of their conversations and general demeanor has led to my mind swirling when she goes over there. The other night I actually prompted my wife to see if her friend wanted to hang, as she had to cancel the night before. She jumped on the opportunity and seemed elated to be going. She went, drank 4 canned mix-drinks and came home very quiet. She hung out with me on the couch for about 10  minutes before saying she was tired and going upstairs. That was when I tried to go in and rub her back and she shot me down before I entered the room. As I sat downstairs alone doing what I call "loser ***", it hit me that she said it was just her, her friend, the roommate and his friend at a fire. Please tell me if I am out of line, but I do not trust that situation in the slightest. I trust my wife, but when she shows me no type of love, how am I safe to assume fidelity? 

So the cycle is attempt intimacy, face rejection, internalize, be chastised for my feelings, apologize and wait for it to blow over. This is not healthy for anyone and I am feeling it. She thinks all I want is sex, but I legitimately just want her to kiss me unexpectedly, tell me she loves other than when leaving the house, rub my back, SOMETHING! We have had the conversation and I know I am a physical touch lover and she is more of an acts of service type of gal. Knowing this, I go out of my way to make sure I take care of little things that may make her happy. But she shows no type of buy-in to my needs/desires. The lack of sex highlights the issue, but I feel as though if I felt certain I was loved it would not be such a big deal to me. 

Please reach out with any advice, comments, critiques or support.

Thank you, 

 

[Batya33]

My sense is she is acting inappropriately for someone married. And also congrats. My husband finished his part time PHD in 2022 and you can bet we were so so psyched for him. Me and our son. Was your wife resentful of having to do more of the child care during this time ? I think the sex part is more of a symptom. Also didn’t she get really drunk with her friends from 4 drinks ? Were you home with the kids? Does she drive drunk?

also why didn’t you marry earlier given your kids etc - was that a point of conflict?

[JoyfulCompany]

Who is taking care of the kids during the day and in the evenings? How are the house chores split? How was her libido before the kids? Is she in good health? Any chance she's overweight? Does she exercise/dance/do yoga/something? In the past have you initiated physical closeness only when you would like to have sex? When you do have sex, do you prepare her well, do you make sure she finishes? Are you two close emotionally? When did you two drift apart sexually?

No need to answer to me, this is the internet, all these are very personal and I really don't want to know. But I would explore those questions before assuming she's cheating. Could be she's tired, could be her hormones are off, could be sex has become just another chore, could be she's checked out emotionally. Really, no way for us to know.

But whatever the reason is, it seems to me you two have poor communication. I'm not blaming you. But I would start from there. You've been together for 9 years, you have kids, yet you're not on the same team and seem unable to discuss major issues in a constructive manner. You both need to ditch the blaming and start listening. Maybe seek professional help. Hope she'll be open to the option. Good luck.

[shouldhavelearned]

Congratulations on making advancements for yourself and your family. 

Don't feel bad about using the benefits! I'm sure your would be so proud of you for using them to help out.

 

As for the wife, if what you said is close to being true.... something is going on. Could be emotional or even physical. 

To have pulled away that much and not even coming back later to have relations is a major red flag. 

Has the topic of counseling or something similar ever come up? 

[smackie9]

You got the money, hire a PI. Check to see if she's got her phone and SM locked out. Maybe see if she has a burner phone. Gotta look and see what's going on, now is the time to take action because she's choosing not to communicate much to you...just blowing things off, down playing the seriousness of it. It sucks but hey nothing else seems to be working.

[ShySoul]

9 hours ago, Rex53 said:

it is several days in a row of denial or if she leads me on and shuts me down right as we get into it. I will typically be quiet and look a bit down for a day while I mentally build myself back up. The problem is, during this time period of internal shame, she will not let me be. She will ask aggressively "Is this because I didn't have sex with you last night?" to which I always say no. I always say no because I can tell that is a problem to her, which I understand

So her denying you sex causes you to doubt yourself. And yet, when she directly asks you if it's about not having sex, you lie and say it's not? Yes, I know the sex is only part of the issue and that the larger issues are emotional. But why deny to her your feelings? All that does is bury the issue and prolong it. You continue to feel bad. She continues to not see how her actions are hurting you. Maybe she asking because she wants to deal with the issue and actually solve something? But instead it becomes a back and forth point of contention that goes nowhere and just makes all parties upset. If you ever want to actually get anywhere, you have to deal with things. You both need to be honest with each other.

9 hours ago, Rex53 said:

Shouldn't a woman WANT to have sex with her husband? So I constantly beat myself up and ask myself "Why am I not good enough?" "Am I bad in bed", "does she not truly love me?" or the dreaded "Is she getting her intimacy elsewhere?".

Why are these the first things you jump to? Why does it have to be either your lack of skill or that she doesn't love you and is getting it elsewhere? There are many reasons a person might not want to have sex. There are reasons why it could be happening frequently. Rather then find something wrong with either of you and assigning blame or responsibility, why not take a look at the bigger picture and see if there is something else going on that's affecting her.

I know it is difficult when you are feeling personally rejected. The feelings of hurt and anger get it the way, You want to find a reason so jump to the quick and easy answers. And they may even turn out to be right. But try not to jump to conclusions without looking objectively and seeing if you can find other alternatives.

9 hours ago, Rex53 said:

I feel as though I have made significant moves that have solidified our families future and it is the most accomplished I have ever felt.

First, congratulations on your achievements.

What has she been doing while you have accomplished all this? She went to school. Did she finish? How are her career aspirations going? How is her personal life? Does she have friends? Hobbies? Volunteering? Does she stay with the children? 

In other words, could she be going through something herself? Could she be down or depressed about something? I could see her questioning what she is doing with her life and needing some sort of fulfillment. She sees you doing well, providing everything including a free eduation. What does that leave for her? That kind of thinking could easily derail your sex drive.

How much time do you really spend together, just the two of you? No friends, no work, no children. How do you go out of your way to do the little things? Are these little things the things she's asked for? Or are they they things you think will make her happy? Not saying you aren't doing these things. But sometimes it can be easy to confuse what we think they want, with what they actually are wanting.

Likewise, are you showing appreciation for the things she does do? If she shows love through acts of service, do you make her feel valued and loved when she does those acts? You talked a lot about her lack of being physical. Does she show you love in any way?

[Rex53]

19 hours ago, Batya33 said:

My sense is she is acting inappropriately for someone married. And also congrats. My husband finished his part time PHD in 2022 and you can bet we were so so psyched for him. Me and our son. Was your wife resentful of having to do more of the child care during this time ? I think the sex part is more of a symptom. Also didn’t she get really drunk with her friends from 4 drinks ? Were you home with the kids? Does she drive drunk?

also why didn’t you marry earlier given your kids etc - was that a point of conflict?

My wife was not resentful when our second child came, but more-so bored to the point that we put the kids in daycare and she began working part-time. 

She did not get REALLY drunk, but she usually comes back from over there in a bit of a romantic mood. It was odd that this time she came back quietly I thought and was so dismissive when I entered the bedroom. She seemed fine to drive, she is always cautious about that. I was home with the kids, but they were asleep. 

I planned on proposing during our 5th year together when we discovered we were having a child. She told me at that time when I already had it planned not to propose because she didn't want people to think we were only getting married because of the baby. That year after our first son (during covid) was defiantly the roughest patch we endured as we were living with her parents and I felt like I was being overruled on parenting matters. We considered separation at that time. Then when my father passed and I was a mess, she helped me pick up the pieces and got help for her post-partum depression. Then after a year of stability I proposed. Then she got pregnant again with our 2nd so we pushed the wedding back a bit. 

 

[Rex53]

19 hours ago, JoyfulCompany said:

Who is taking care of the kids during the day and in the evenings? How are the house chores split? How was her libido before the kids? Is she in good health? Any chance she's overweight? Does she exercise/dance/do yoga/something? In the past have you initiated physical closeness only when you would like to have sex? When you do have sex, do you prepare her well, do you make sure she finishes? Are you two close emotionally? When did you two drift apart sexually?
 

Kids go to daycare and in the evenings we tag team it swapping who puts which kid to bed each night. She takes care of a few more household chores than me, but it's not clearly defined who does what. She has complained about wanting me to do more around the house, to which I have made a lot of effort to rectify. 

Her libido was defiantly stronger before our first child and pretty consistently intermittent since. At times it seems to be non-existent and I feel like when I bring it up it makes the situation worse to the point that she consciously withholds it. She is in good health, eats properly, exercises, runs, yoga, etc. She had a tough time losing baby weight but has made a ton of progress in recent months. She has done 5ks and 10ks and I bring our children to all of them to see her at the finish line and celebrate her. Conversely, I played college lacrosse (met my wife playing men's league with her cousin) and have coached for 10 years and she has not brought our sons to any of my games. Just thought I'd add that. 

I initiate physical closeness 99% of the time. our go-to intimacy is when the kids are in bed I rub her legs for an hour or so while she reads and I watch TV. I also lightly touch her, which has always driven her crazy (in a good way). I do this daily, and it is what typically leads to sex for us when we have it, but it is definitely not something that is done to insight a sexual situation at this point. Again though, in the past I have been "bummed" when she rejects me and when I voice my concern she downplays it, says things like "you're disgusting" and thinks me having an emotional response is immature. Then when I internalize after being rejected she still reads my demeanor and thinks "He is just mad we didn't have sex". I have said every time we had this argument that is is not the sex in and of itself, it is the lack of showing me love in any other way and then blatantly rejecting me that it gets me to a boiling point. Or like this when situation when I encouraged her to go hang with her friend and it was essentially a double date at an intimate/private setting THEN comes home and not only rejects me, but does in such a way that makes me feel like an annoyance and patronizes me about it.

When we do have sex, I feel it is great. She also seems to enjoy it as well. My main focus when I have sex is to get my partner to finish and (unless she is faking) she does just that a majority of the time. I am heavy on foreplay, which I feel she enjoys the most. Emotionally we are close, but she doesn't seem to understand the source of my frustration no matter how often and clearly I state it. I would say we drifted apart a bit around the holidays when our whole family got sick and it felt like it took 2 months to get everyone healthy at the same time again. Since then we have had sex, it is just not frequent. When she is on, she is on. A few weeks ago we both had a weekday off work but sent our kids to daycare and spent the day together. We had sex like 4x that day, but we haven't had it since. Again, it's not that she says no, it's how she says no and the timing that get under my skin. 

[DarkCh0c0]

29 minutes ago, Rex53 said:

I planned on proposing during our 5th year together when we discovered we were having a child. She told me at that time when I already had it planned not to propose because she didn't want people to think we were only getting married because of the baby. That year after our first son (during covid) was defiantly the roughest patch we endured as we were living with her parents and I felt like I was being overruled on parenting matters. We considered separation at that time. Then when my father passed and I was a mess, she helped me pick up the pieces and got help for her post-partum depression. Then after a year of stability I proposed. Then she got pregnant again with our 2nd so we pushed the wedding back a bit

I'm going to be blunt.

Have you considered that she just doesn't want to be married to you?

All this postponing excuses are BS. People who want to get married do it even when they are pregnant or under tight conditions.

[Rex53]

20 hours ago, shouldhavelearned said:

Congratulations on making advancements for yourself and your family. 

Don't feel bad about using the benefits! I'm sure your would be so proud of you for using them to help out.

 

As for the wife, if what you said is close to being true.... something is going on. Could be emotional or even physical. 

To have pulled away that much and not even coming back later to have relations is a major red flag. 

Has the topic of counseling or something similar ever come up? 

 

3 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

I'm going to be blunt.

Have you considered that she just doesn't want to be married to you?

All this postponing excuses are BS. People who want to get married do it even when they are pregnant or under tight conditions.

I have, and it perplexes me as to why she would marry me if the sex is bad or she doesn't appreciate me as a person. I've literally asked and she seemed hurt that I even proposed that. To the point of crying and saying of course she loves me. I said "I know you love who I am as a father and everything, but it feels like you like the idea of being with me and more than actually being with me." which really broke her down. That situation ended with me apologizing to her and trying to re-explain why I was upset. But here we are again.

[DarkCh0c0]

9 minutes ago, Rex53 said:

I have, and it perplexes me as to why she would marry me if the sex is bad or she doesn't appreciate me as a person. I've literally asked and she seemed hurt that I even proposed that. To the point of crying and saying of course she loves me. I said "I know you love who I am as a father and everything, but it feels like you like the idea of being with me and more than actually being with me." which really broke her down. That situation ended with me apologizing to her and trying to re-explain why I was upset. But here we are again.

So she just wants to coast along? No sex, no romance, no dates, and so forth? You got needs, but meh, they are not that important for her.

No raw conversations about the elephant in the room?

If she is just content with the way things are now, what would you do?

And, has she ever brought up any concerns in the relationship? How did you end up proposing and getting married?

[Rex53]

1 minute ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

So she just wants to coast along? No sex, no romance, no dates, and so forth? You got needs, but meh, they are not that important for her.

No raw conversations about the elephant in the room?

If she is just content with the way things are now, what would you do?

And, has she ever brought up any concerns in the relationship?

She does put in efforts to get us to do date nights and such, but even on those nights when the kids are at the in-laws and we go out to dinner and all she still will refuse sex. I feel that my needs which she thinks are valid and align with hers she prioritizes over my other feelings. I am a mental health professional, so I know the value of feeling validated and the impact it has on people. I just don't feel validated or appreciated. 

She brought up concerns related to my effort around the house (a few years ago when we first moved in together), my quickness to become frustrated and short with her and the kids (earlier this year which I sought counseling for even though I knew it was related to stress at work and lack of feeling appreciated at home) and that I place too much importance on sex and don't handle being turned down well. 

[Batya33]

56 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

I'm going to be blunt.

Have you considered that she just doesn't want to be married to you?

All this postponing excuses are BS. People who want to get married do it even when they are pregnant or under tight conditions.

I agree.  We tried to conceive before marriage cause I was almost 41! When we got married I was 8 months pregnant.  I didn't care at all what people thought (I told those we cared about we married for all the right reasons which is 100% true and still is 15 years later) and he's a conservative reserved guy and also didn't care.  

And if she comes home in that romantic mood -i.e. tipsy there is no way in heck she should be driving IMO.

[DarkCh0c0]

17 minutes ago, Rex53 said:

She brought up concerns related to my effort around the house (a few years ago when we first moved in together), my quickness to become frustrated and short with her and the kids (earlier this year which I sought counseling for even though I knew it was related to stress at work and lack of feeling appreciated at home) and that I place too much importance on sex and don't handle being turned down well.

Well, it could be resentment from the short temper period, pressure to have sex, or otherwise.

It's hard to tell when we can't hear her pov. I do know that sexual closeness comes from emotional closeness. 

Have you had a proper serious sit down about both of your feelings? Not just sex, but for intimacy and romance?

If she plans the date nights, do you two not enjoy them?

[tattoobunnie]

Watch this!  This literally sums up why.

[shouldhavelearned]

The more you talk about it, the more it doesn't make sense.

[Rex53]

1 hour ago, tattoobunnie said:

Watch this!  This literally sums up why.

Im actually a psychologist so I understood all of those words and have done all of those things. This isn’t just a dude crying for sex, this is a husband wondering why his wife shows him no love, sexual or non-sexual. I’m not a caveman trying to club her over the means and get it however I can. I want her to want me again. 

[Rex53]

*not a caveman trying to get it however I can.

[Vesna]

Why do you allow (and one time you encouraged)her to “go hang with her friend and it was essentially a double date at an intimate/private setting”? I don’t know any man (my husband or male friends included), that would allow his wife or girlfriend to do something like this. You need to put a stop to this. Why are you putting up with this? Would she allow you to do the same thing? This is inappropriate behavior on  her part especially for a married woman. You seem to be playing a very passive role in all of this…Vesna

[JoyfulCompany]

Okay, so I don't see any major rifts then, you seem to do most things right and the problem is rather recent.

Intuitively I would say - as much as I see the situation with the friend-roommate-second guy majorly annoying, I don't think there's high chance for infidelity there. I hope your wife is smart enough to appreciate she has a good husband, nice family and financial stability - things that are most probably lacking in someone renting a room (perhaps I sound super judgmental but let's be honest). Is she enjoying the attention - quite possible.

As to her changing the subject or sounding patronizing when she declines sex - I would not view it as a direct lack of respect for you or your needs but rather some internal guilt she has on the topic that makes her want to minimize the importance of sex overall.

Any chance that:
A. the issues with your heightened temper from this year or
B. garden parties with the friend-roommate-second guy trio
coincide with the beginning of the dry spell?

I think you could both still benefit from some counselling. You not feeling any appreciation, warmth and love from her side is quite bad and the lack of sex is a consequence of something else. Unfortunately the more you try to push her (asking or being grumpy or jealous), the more she'll avoid the topic pretending all is alright. But things need to get addressed in a calm and constructive way, not ignored.

Who knows, maybe it's a case of "the devil makes work for idle hands to do". Is she working or does she plan to work? Maybe it's her boosting her confidence after being mostly a mom for the last 4 years... only in morally grey ways. Maybe it's something worse, no way to know. Good luck and hope you're able to connect again.

[LootieTootie]

I'm with JoyfulCompany... I think you both have poor communication. Don't be dishonest even if you feel like you'll come out as the bad guy. This is your forever partner so you both should be open and honest with each other without feeling persecuted. It sounds like you both have been ho-hum'in away and not really addressing issues because you guys don't want to rock the boat.

Things you should ask your wife is if she actually enjoys sex with you. If she says no, ask her if theres anything you can do to help. If she says yes, ask her what can you do to make her want more of it. It could just be that she doesn't want it as much as you do. Hormonal changes do really affect women and they affect every woman differently.

Good luck and I hope she's open to hearing you out and actually putting some work to meeting you in the middle instead of shaming you. 

[Rex53]

18 hours ago, Vesna said:

Why do you allow (and one time you encouraged)her to “go hang with her friend and it was essentially a double date at an intimate/private setting”? I don’t know any man (my husband or male friends included), that would allow his wife or girlfriend to do something like this. You need to put a stop to this. Why are you putting up with this? Would she allow you to do the same thing? This is inappropriate behavior on  her part especially for a married woman. You seem to be playing a very passive role in all of this…Vesna

I encouraged her to hang out with her friend (knowing the roommate would be there) but not the other guy. We actually discussed this last night and she understands where I'm coming from but feels as though I make up situations in my head as if I am fantasizing about her cheating (which I most certainly am not). She thinks I should trust her more and said "Besides the fact that I love you and our family and wouldn't throw that away for to have sex with some guy, how stupid would I be to cheat on you with one of them? They are immature like children and don't have anything going for them. I'm there to see (her friend), not them. But they live there so its not like I can kick them out to just hang with (her friend)." I said I would prefer you meet her out or have her come to our place then. I said "As a man, I will NEVER be comfortable with that situation/set-up. It has nothing to do with not trusting you, it's just the door being left open with a lot of unknown and worry on my side." 

She has been very blunt and honest throughout our 9 years together so I do believe her when she says if she had a problem with the sex or me or anything she would voice it. She also has zero time during the day when she would be able to accomplish some type of meet-up with someone and only goes to this friends hour once or twice a month. Based on this I don't think it is likely that she is cheating, but I know men therefore I do not trust those dudes over there and never will. She tried to lighten the situation by joking "Even if I was ever gonna cheat on you, you think it would be with guys like THAT? Give me a little more credit." The thing is I know cheating is often spontaneous during a moment of impairment. So no matter her attractions, morals, vales and resolve at a neutral moment, the risk is always there and this type of situation amplifies that risk to the point where even if everything is fine between us it could happen. I don't want to vocalize this concern too frequently and put it in her head as something that is prophetic and in turn makes her more likely to cheat. The conversation was left alone after that, but it will be interesting to see how she navigates this going forward. 

The bottom line is I need to work on controlling my anxious thoughts related to potentially losing what I've worked to create in this life (my family), and she needs to respect my needs, feelings and boundaries. 

[LootieTootie]

Rex, have you told her how important sex is to you? I know you think that is selfish but wanting sex on a regular basis from your significant other is not uncommon. You guys could do it like most long term couples do, schedule sex. Not a bad idea since life does get in the way.

Have another sit down with her and have a heart to heart about sex. How frequent do you both want it, what turns you on, what doesn't turn you on, what time of the day you want it (I know couple with kids like to do the deed without the kids in the house), etc.

 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, Rex53 said:

The bottom line is I need to work on controlling my anxious thoughts related to potentially losing what I've worked to create in this life (my family), and she needs to respect my needs, feelings and boundaries. 

I'd get much more specific/basic with myself about these abstract concepts and goals.  I do specific things to reduce stress in my life that work for me individually.  I get specific with others on what I need as far as "respecting" my "boundaries"- "I feel disrespected when you watch the game when I am speaking to you"  for example.  It's too easy especially these days with all the social media catch phrases and memes to tell yourself you're going to "work" on "anxious thoughts" - take on the harder work and challenges of seeing what that means to you on a daily basis or even hourly.  

I'm glad you two spoke.