Before you decide to get married....

[mylolita]

8 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

I echo what mylolita said about marriage is changing. When my husband and I got married, parents kept asking when we were going to have children. We said we weren't but that didnt stop them. 8 years later, they finally stopped. It's probably because they now think I'm too old (hitting 40 soon) LOL.

I do see a lot of marry couples now without kids. I know a whole lot of them - from work and at dog parks. Definitely I think every longterm couple relationship will have issues, regardless of the married or unmarried status. I say that most people who are in a longterm committed relationship will always be inclined to work it out with their significant other, even if that means sweeping the issues under the table.

 

I got that too Lootie as our time frame for doing things was quite slow! 
 

We lived together for 4 years before we tied the knot! Then it was 3.5 years married before I had my first! People did ask, even during the wedding, when we would be having kids. I didn’t take offence because one, people are simply curious, two, people are sometimes boring with conversation and follow the “standard things to ask and say” guide book of chat! And thirdly, I feel for me, it came from a very happy expectant place! 
 

I then had three children in 4 years and they stopped asking after my second and then when I was pregnant with my third started saying “When are you going to stop?” 
 

LMAO! 
 

I still tease them now and say, “Don’t know! Might have a fourth loading soon!!!” 🥲😉

 

x

[DarkCh0c0]

7 minutes ago, mylolita said:

Would you like to be married some day if you meet the right person @DarkCh0c0 or is it maybe not for you?

Ofc I would. That's why I'm so inspired by everyone's answers.

[mylolita]

14 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Ofc I would. That's why I'm so inspired by everyone's answers.

That’s nice Dark!!

 

Don’t put pressure on yourself, you’ll be fine! 
 

This is why I lament my Grandma on my Mums side not being here anymore. She was my go to for all advice. She was straight to the point and had so much lived experience. She also didn’t mince her words or try to tell you what you wanted to hear. Her very cute catch phase was, “What’s it like to be good lookin’!?” And, “What do you expect? I’m OLD.” 🤣

 

She has fantastic marriage advice that I regret, only started asking her about a year before she died at 96. I’d been swept up busy with being pregnant and small babies and I kick myself I hardly paid her many visits in that time! 
 

My Grandma’s sister was quite a flighty romantic and married an Irish boy in the airforce that she met in an air hanger during WW2! She went to live in Ireland and had 9 children! 
 

I now go to my husbands aunt Sandra, or “Mrs Bouquet” everyone (lovingly) teasingly calls her! She has been married 65 years and is simply one of those, class acts of a woman! She really is. 
 

They have a jokey type of dynamic between each other. Her and her husband (Ron!) came to our new house for the first time and I heard her say to him, “Ron, can I have a kitchen like this?” And he quickly replied, “When you get a new husband.” LOL!!!

 

I asked her advice on what makes a happy marriage and she told me of course you will quarrel (her use of words!) but you have to make up and try to meet in the middle. She also used the phase “give and take”. She also emphasised having a sense of humour and laughing together, and appreciating each other.

 

I think most people could agree that is stellar and wise advice. The cliches are often pretty true!

 

x

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, yogacat said:

"something that you've achieved" and that "your life is something" if you're married.

For me personally marriage and staying married and raising our son was and is a big achievement -in my personal situation and circumstances.  I think people who make comments to others- and I was the brunt of so many- have achieved being tactless busy bodies.  I don't ever encourage people to marry or even date.  It's not my business and I don't see marriage in general as an achievement.  It depends on so many things.  I don't see throwing a big wedding reception that goes off smoothly as a marital achievement -it might be a party planning achievement for sure.  I also don't ever encourage people to have children.  Same reasons.

Where I live and have lived both as a single person, a person with an SO, a married mom - I think it is easier to move about in society- at least in my worlds over the years -as a married person.  And often as a parent as well.  There is that sort of assumption that if you are married you're adult, mature, responsible. 

When I was serious with my now husband and we were trying to conceive I got an email from a friend who'd been married about 12 years (now divorced) and she asked how the crazy wild single life was.  I was -flabbergasted.  I was working my behind off in a competitive stressful environment, she knew I had a serious boyfriend and -she didn't know -but we were also trying to conceive and planning to get married in the future.   And I was 40.  What the heck was that assumption that just because you are not married and don't have a child you must be having a wild crazy single life? 

 

[DarkCh0c0]

11 hours ago, mylolita said:

asked her advice on what makes a happy marriage and she told me of course you will quarrel (her use of words!) but you have to make up and try to meet in the middle. She also used the phase “give and take”. She also emphasised having a sense of humour and laughing together, and appreciating each other.

That's some golden advice.

I am now curious to meet Mrs Bouquet! She sounds fun.

@Batya33 well said!

[mylolita]

@Batya33,

 

I think your friends were tactless too! 
 

Literally a union via Elvis fly by is obviously not something to lord over anyone else. The literal act of marriage, the legality of it, which takes all of 10 minutes, also takes no effort. 
 

Where the achievement lies is - having the courage to take a leap of faith, take a risk, and commit seriously to someone forever. That’s big! And secondly, the other achievement lies in the rest of the work, and making it happen for the decades to come. 
 

I do think the majority of people, when given real responsibilities, mature out of necessity. You can’t get many bigger, life long responsibilities than children, and having children does cause, in my opinion; many people to “grow up”. You simply have to turn up no matter what (if you want to do it well). Jobs, you can quit. Friends you can let fade away. Husbands, you can even divorce. But your children? Unless you want to be subhuman, you cannot abandon them and say, that’s it - I’ve had enough! I’m quitting! 
 

I personally don’t think I’ve changed until I catch up with very old friends who have remained doing the things they have always done since college. Still partying, still renting, still single, still going on shopping spree’s and scrolling TikTok and they are 34 like me. I think they are the same as me until we chat, and I can’t help but feel like their Aunty. I realise suddenly, we don’t have much in common anymore.

 

I do think society upholds and respects marriage and takes you more seriously once you are. It is, after all, a very serious commitment if done right. I think it deserves the gravitas and respect given and equally I think good parents deserve the praise and respect in society too. We are raising the next generation! The generation that will be paying tax to keep society going when everyone else is aging. The people who will hopefully keep things chugging! And hopefully again; they will be happy and stable because of the hard work, love and sacrifices we as good parents put in. And that to me, is no small feat! 
 

Do anything well and consistently over decades and you’ll get a pat on the back from me! 
 

x

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

I personally don’t think I’ve changed until I catch up with very old friends who have remained doing the things they have always done since college. Still partying, still renting, still single, still going on shopping spree’s and scrolling TikTok and they are 34 like me. I think they are the same as me until we chat, and I can’t help but feel like their Aunty. I realise suddenly, we don’t have much in common anymore.

I know of many married people who don't have children or marry after their children are grown so they're not raising kids together. I think it's courageous to give a child up for adoption.  For me the adulting really happened in stages -because of grad school (and applying to it -my first post-secondary very competitive school/undertaking), because of moving out on my own (and bouncing my first real rent check -poor bookkeeping on my account!) and my first post-college job and more-so my first post-grad school/second and current career job.  Because of the nature of the job, the responsibilities, commitment, intensity.

My future husband was marriage minded early on in general -meaning in his 20s at the latest and part of his decision making in even dating me was whether I was passionate about my career. Interestingly yes he wanted me to be home full time -if I desired so - and he had no interest in being the full time caregiver (and I love his honesty about that!) but -separately he wanted to make sure I had a passion for a career -whether it was our current job/career or what my future goals were. Not about money (I mean maybe nominally -had I said I was passionate about being a starving artist and traveling the world then -what about kids lol).  

I have friends who are home full time and don't seem very mature to me - they are absolutely awesome parents- responsible, reliable- but in other areas they're not stepping up to the plate. I mean whining on and on about being out of shape "Oh I should exercise but [insert tons of lame excuses]" or whining on and on about needing at least a part time job either for $ issues and/or boredom/meh feelings etc but never doing more than "Oh right I should call that person who might need a part time receptionist/I should prepare a resume -and  then doing the There is Always Tomorrow Scarlett O'Hara thing. I say nothing.  I listen.  To me that's not being mature when the whining is to that extent (like I am not mature enough about getting behind the wheel again but -at least I own my excuses lol and it doesn't affect my or family's daily life nor do I whine about it).  

I know parents who outsource so much of the child care and substitute trends for common sense, who spend hours finding the perfect color shirt for an activity, focus mostly on keeping up with the Joneses- yes the child is healthy, well fed, cared for and loved -these are mature things they do but I just don't paint with a broad brush that all parents behave enough like adults and responsible ones. 

It depends on what the standard is as far as the child's best interests -the individual child and I know many married couples who have equally challenging adult responsibilities or more so whether career or family related or both.  I think circling back the couple should talk about -ongoing talk about -their perspectives on their role as spouses, as potential parents, caregivers for their parents -and recognize life throws curveballs and can give even core beliefs are run for their money.

[jul-els]

My two cents, marriage is not a lifetime commitment. If you want out, you can get divorced. If you want to ensure you never get divorced, then don’t get married. But if you want marriage, go into it with your eyes open, knowing that you will have to put in a lot of work and there are no guarantees. 

[Seraphim]

1 hour ago, jul-els said:

My two cents, marriage is not a lifetime commitment. If you want out, you can get divorced. If you want to ensure you never get divorced, then don’t get married. But if you want marriage, go into it with your eyes open, knowing that you will have to put in a lot of work and there are no guarantees. 

For many it is a lifetime commitment. My in-laws were married 63 years when my FIL died. Same amount of years for my grandparents when my grandmother died. My other grandparents were also married until death parted them. My husband and I won’t divorce as we don’t believe divorce is for us . 
 

Nothing is guaranteed but you can definitely affect the odds of success. 

[mylolita]

2 hours ago, jul-els said:

My two cents, marriage is not a lifetime commitment. If you want out, you can get divorced. If you want to ensure you never get divorced, then don’t get married. But if you want marriage, go into it with your eyes open, knowing that you will have to put in a lot of work and there are no guarantees. 

I would advise if it isn’t going to be a lifelong commitment for you (potentially) - to omit in your vows the traditional “till death do us part”.

 

I have witnessed couples write their own vows and noticed many modern couples do leave this line out! 
 

x

[mylolita]

2 hours ago, jul-els said:

My two cents, marriage is not a lifetime commitment. If you want out, you can get divorced. If you want to ensure you never get divorced, then don’t get married. But if you want marriage, go into it with your eyes open, knowing that you will have to put in a lot of work and there are no guarantees. 

Curious as well jul-els,

 

Can I please ask are you married yourself? 
 

I find in my experience single people, or unmarried people, tend to have a different view of marriage than married people 🤣

 

Maybe why they don’t get married! 
 

x

[yogacat]

Of course. They don't ANSWER to anyone.😜

Seriously though, marriage is out of fashion for many.

...Even if society says that is the way it should be. Personally, I am not against it, I think it can be a beautiful thing shared between two people. Some also like to have confirmation of their commitment. Being Married does not define a relationship but is an evolving commitment of a bond. People still want to connect both emotionally, physically and psychologically. That is what two people should strive for, right?

And whether a couple decides to get married or not, what truly matters is their commitment and dedication to each other. As long as both partners are happy and fulfilled in their relationship, that is what truly matters. Not a piece of paper nor a ceremony.

What's important is that two people have each other's backs...in my humble opinion.

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, yogacat said:

Of course. They don't ANSWER to anyone.😜

Seriously though, marriage is out of fashion for many.

...Even if society says that is the way it should be. Personally, I am not against it, I think it can be a beautiful thing shared between two people. Some also like to have confirmation of their commitment. Being Married does not define a relationship but is an evolving commitment of a bond. People still want to connect both emotionally, physically and psychologically. That is what two people should strive for, right?

And whether a couple decides to get married or not, what truly matters is their commitment and dedication to each other. As long as both partners are happy and fulfilled in their relationship, that is what truly matters. Not a piece of paper nor a ceremony.

What's important is that two people have each other's backs...in my humble opinion.

It’s interesting that you feel pressure from others to tie the knot Yoga!

 

I have experienced the opposite! There are hardly any traditional values where I am from; and the majority of women I know are not married and don’t have children! It’s cool to not be married. People have a dog now or do other things. My sister says one of her main reasons she doesn’t want children is that she will lose her freedom and won’t my have as much money - and she wants to focus on her career. She is 32 and this seems to be a common trend where I am from.

 

In England, not many people are religious anymore, which as you know, religion was highly intertwined with marriage ceremonies. Weddings were often very religious too. Without religion, and with progressive values, it’s not frowned upon for couples to live together, have children outside of being married - so anything goes there for the majority. No one is going to attack your choice here because where I live it is very progressive. We have two couples in my sons school who are same sex parents as well. 
 

I’m actually the odd one out as a traditionalist! I was the first by far to get married (I was 24) and have kids in my female friend group and was the first also to buy a house (I was 25). 
 

I was also fully prepared to be single until I met the right guy. It just worked out that I happened to meet my husband when I was young, and the rest is history! I was very traditional in that respect because I was a virgin when I met him and had never been kissed, and I realise these days holding those principles, saving yourself for marriage - are probably very strange and unusual. I was waiting for The One, as they say! 
 

To me, it really depends how seriously you take those vows. If in the back of your mind you’re thinking “Oh well if this goes Pete Tong I can always file for divorce in 4 years” I think that is a bad way to start. 
 

Some couples don’t take it as seriously, some don’t try very hard or give up when the going gets tough. Like anything in life, it depends how much you want it.

 

I think it’s awesome you’re single and happy and going with the flow! I always uphold marriage, I think it’s a fantastic tradition, but it’s not for everyone, and neither are children and the like. My sister isn’t maternal at all and I actually think she is making the right decision by not having a baby, or getting married. Some women are the wife type, others don’t want that for themselves and that’s absolutely fine! 
 

The beauty of modern day is that women have a choice now, and being single and just hooking up or having a serious boyfriend for many years won’t make people think any less of you - unlike previous generations! 
 

x

 

[yogacat]

😆

[yogacat]

21 minutes ago, mylolita said:

The beauty of modern day is that women have a choice now, and being single and just hooking up or having a serious boyfriend for many years won’t make people think any less of you - unlike previous generations! 

Fundamentally marriage does not indicate proof of love or long-term commitment in any reliable way. Many married individuals treat their partners horribly, and some of the most committed and loving relationships in existence involve people who aren’t married, so why do we as a society keep pretending that marriage is the ultimate signifier of commitment and adoration?

Then you have those marriages that open their hands and hearts to others in the world..Open marriages. If you need to open your marriage to others to feel fulfilled, well... 

 

[Seraphim]

Depending on the place or country you may have no legal protection if you are not married . You may have no benefits or rights say if your partner is in a hospital. Their family of origin may be able to claim those rights and their property/ items if they die. Being married provides much greater rights in cases. 

[Seraphim]

https://www.epsteinlawyers.co

[redswim30]

I agree that it's important to have all these important conversations and I do think talking about this all prior to marriage is beneficial. 

However, I think a big lie we (society) tells us is that neither person in the marriage will ever change.  You both will over time.  Also, you never know what may befall you as a couple and how each person will handle that.  Sometimes in expected ways and sometimes in unexpected ways.  Hopefully with those changes, you will still be compatible and sometimes you may not. 

There's no way to completely ensure you will not end up divorced- other than not getting married. There's no guarantees, because no one can ever say how they or their partner may change over the long term or how you will each react to life's challenges.  

But I DO think one of the best things to do and have the best chance for success is to make sure the core of who you are is the same.  Because who a person is deep down rarely changes.  How do they handle conflict?  What are their priorities in life? Who is the person when they are at their worst?  How do they respond to not getting their way?  How do they deal with hardship or unexpected challenges?  How do they approach change?  Are they willing to work on their shortcomings?  Can you be honest about everything or do you conceal things to keep the peace?  Do they have a growth mindset or a fixed mindset about things. 

These are crucial. 

 

 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, yogacat said:

Of course. They don't ANSWER to anyone.😜

Seriously though, marriage is out of fashion for many.

...Even if society says that is the way it should be. Personally, I am not against it, I think it can be a beautiful thing shared between two people. Some also like to have confirmation of their commitment. Being Married does not define a relationship but is an evolving commitment of a bond. People still want to connect both emotionally, physically and psychologically. That is what two people should strive for, right?

And whether a couple decides to get married or not, what truly matters is their commitment and dedication to each other. As long as both partners are happy and fulfilled in their relationship, that is what truly matters. Not a piece of paper nor a ceremony.

What's important is that two people have each other's backs...in my humble opinion.

It does define our relationship because we wouldn't be together at all if we weren't married and we wouldn't be parents. To me it's not just a piece of paper -neither are my academic degrees or his - and the ceremony reflected our deep commitment.  I didn't get married for societal or fashionable reasons or otherwise -to me that's an incredibly silly reason to get married or not get married.  Just like traditional dating, defining your commitment and relationship fosters the connection and the bond - with rare exceptions -people who like to "live in the moment" in a purist way -with no future goals no structure- feel connected in the moment.  I typically don't click with people with that perspective including for a close friendship.  

[Seraphim]

6 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

It does define our relationship because we wouldn't be together at all if we weren't married and we wouldn't be parents. To me it's not just a piece of paper -neither are my academic degrees or his - and the ceremony reflected our deep commitment.  I didn't get married for societal or fashionable reasons or otherwise -to me that's an incredibly silly reason to get married or not get married.  Just like traditional dating, defining your commitment and relationship fosters the connection and the bond - with rare exceptions -people who like to "live in the moment" in a purist way -with no future goals no structure- feel connected in the moment.  I typically don't click with people with that perspective including for a close friendship.  

The same . Our religious ceremonies were absolutely crucial and the vows treated as absolutes. This marriage is forever period so we had better co operate and make everything work because there is no leaving. We also didn’t want children without marriage . Personally I don’t care what society or fashion says I know my own wants and needs . 

[Batya33]

This might be just me -I know many people.  Of all ages.  I've rarely met or know of a couple who are not married because both do not wish to be married. Exceptions are I know of elderly people who meet after they've been widowed and become a long term couple but choose not to marry.  Now sometimes the person who wants to marry accepts that it's not going to be -I know of two couples like this including one who are heterosexual and domestic partners not spouses -she didn't want to marry again and they have a teenager. Sometimes the imbalance is what leads to the inevitable break up.

 

[itsallgrand]

6 hours ago, yogacat said:

Fundamentally marriage does not indicate proof of love or long-term commitment in any reliable way. Many married individuals treat their partners horribly, and some of the most committed and loving relationships in existence involve people who aren’t married, so why do we as a society keep pretending that marriage is the ultimate signifier of commitment and adoration?

Then you have those marriages that open their hands and hearts to others in the world..Open marriages. If you need to open your marriage to others to feel fulfilled, well... 

 

I've felt this way too. Anyone basically of legal age where they live can marry. I've seen a lot of marriages where, I'm sorry, but it's hard to take them seriously as far as the marriage having any real meaning.

That's not to say I have anything really against marriage. And I'm happy for people who do find meaning in marriage and have relationships that fit THEM. 

I just don't think for me it is necessary for what I've always wanted in a relationship. Maybe maybe one day we will for "icing on the cake" and we wanted to if raising a child together for legal reasons and for that concreteness for a child. 

I just think the generalized institution of marriage is more about society being able to hold people to certain accounts and less about any real indicators of love, commitment to each other, etc. Individuals may very much treat their marriages that way, and that's great, but it's not a requirement really to tying the knot or staying married. 

It may be a cynical take according to some people's view, but I don't see it that way at all. I can't idealize something that serves so many different purposes for different people is all. 

If you are going to get married, it's important to view marriage similarly I think. 

 

 

[Batya33]

22 minutes ago, itsallgrand said:

If you are going to get married, it's important to view marriage similarly I think. 

Definitely.  A couple of my friends settled because they were focused on being mothers and didn't want to do that outside of marriage, one or two married basically head over heels but no real substance, etc.  I'm not the smug married type who thinks others should be married or that the status of being married means you are a good person or a good partner. 

I would not have married anyone who saw marriage as just a piece of paper.

[itsallgrand]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Definitely.  A couple of my friends settled because they were focused on being mothers and didn't want to do that outside of marriage, one or two married basically head over heels but no real substance, etc.  I'm not the smug married type who thinks others should be married or that the status of being married means you are a good person or a good partner. 

I would not have married anyone who saw marriage as just a piece of paper.

Exactly. 

And for me, there were a lot of men who I met along the way who I could have married and that be that. They had a deep desire to be married, be dads, build a certain kind of life. They were wife hunting! And that's fine but I never would have been happy in that sort of arrangement because for me getting married and getting pregnant wasn't a must have life goal thing ever. Those men are better matched with those woman who really, really wanted that too!

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, itsallgrand said:

Exactly. 

And for me, there were a lot of men who I met along the way who I could have married and that be that. They had a deep desire to be married, be dads, build a certain kind of life. They were wife hunting! And that's fine but I never would have been happy in that sort of arrangement because for me getting married and getting pregnant wasn't a must have life goal thing ever. Those men are better matched with those woman who really, really wanted that too!

I think it's fine to wife hunt and husband hunt (as I did) as long as the person also is not settling and is focused on finding the right person for them - not just someone who fits the bill.  So I think the discussions Sherry mentioned helps prevent that - because it makes the individuals share their specific expectations, etc.