Before you decide to get married....

[DarkCh0c0]

10 hours ago, mylolita said:

Been to sleep absolutely furiously and outrageous seething at my husband before!!!! In separate beds!

And that wasn't bad? Sleeping in separate beds? I saw it growing up, and it left a bad taste in me. Didn't think it could be okay to do this and rekindle kindly.

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, Capricorn3 said:

I relate to this post the most. I can't ever remember us sitting down and discussing any of the "check list" but I realize for the vast majority of people it's not the norm.  It was a whole other world back then and we just worked well together and faced any "crisis" when and if it happened and still do.  We never have things like "chore lists" for me to do, or him to do - I find that incredibly weird and more something I would do with very young children etc.  

Anyway, I just wanted to say nice post Cherylyn.

Yes same - we didn't do the checklist to that extent -the big stuff -we wanted - child/children, we had to discuss geography since I'd been in our city for close to 40 years and had my career there, family and  friends, and we already knew I wanted to be home full time with a child longer than maternity leave, we already knew the religion piece, our financial values and stability goals (and the fact we both were when we met and when we met again), and no chore list - we sort of evolved that over time especially since unusually I became a SAHM 3 months after marriage and in my head that meant I did over 90% of housework too and he also had suggested we get a cleaning service weekly (I opted for twice a month). 

There were surprises.  I didn't know he'd start traveling again once our son was 2 weeks old.  Until I was in my last trimester.  He thought I knew/surmised this.  I didn't know that there would be disagreements with my in laws related to our newborn and visiting us, etc. 

There were things about infant care I assumed he knew -why did I assume that -he was an only child and never babysat lol-which he totally didn't (baby was always fine!).  I didn't know I'd be as stressed out/anxious as I was as a new mom and I didn't know of course there would be a flu epidemic shortly after he was born which made that even worse for me. 

We had to navigate his parent becoming very ill shortly after we had our son and after we moved 800 miles away. 

And - 5 years in me discovering -ok hey I feel ready to go back to working outside the home.  I mean - what if that had happened one year in or -never? How could I really predict when that would happen and/or what if he decided hey I'd like you to work outside the home again. 

But the thing is on both our parts -we knew -and we  trusted that those decisions would be made with a lot of rationality, a lot of good reasons, a lot of common sense and a lot of respect. So huge stuff that shakes up the whole family -and it does for sure - when you shift from SAHM to then working - with a young child - isn't so huge when you're -committed, love each other, respect and admire each other. 

Then even huge stuff like - my mom is in hospice and I don't know what to do next, should I say something now that my husband is away 16 days instead of 5 with no end in sight because his dad is sick but our son - needs his daddy too!! - is - more manageable because you're a unit , a team, romantic partners too.  That's the thing you can talk and  talk before but really big stuff externally and internally happens.

[mylolita]

16 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Not so much spoken but more unspoken - like I don't think either of us would leave any real disagreement hanging if he was going on a business trip - like -I know it's superstitious but oh my god what if our last convo was a disagreement and there was a plane crash.  Also for me personally I won't text/email angry stuff if I can possibly avoid it.  He doesn't either.  We talk when we can have time to do so.  

Also he defers to me as far as when we leave for the airport (if up to him he'd cut it wayyyyy too close LOL).

Edited to add as this thread reminded me and the question about rules.  43 years ago I had my first babysitting job for my upstairs neighbor.  They were a young couple with a baby.  They were a striking couple because - this was in the early 80s- she was about 5 feet tall.  He was well over 6 feet.  She was very pale skinned and he was very dark skinned! The baby slept most often so I could -look around lol. 

On their refrigerator was a paper attached with magnets and it had  - how the chores were divided up between them.  I mean -my mom worked at that point -part time like 20 hours a week and my older sister I think had moved out already - but - my mom -was a traditional housewife married in the mid 1950s. 

My dad actually did do quite a lot around the house but to see it -spelled out like this - divided up -like a contract I guess -I was in shock and also sort of assumed she'd been the one to require it.  I was in awe of her for doing that.  I always wondered if it actually worked that way in practice!

I actually really love your “don’t text or email angry” Batya!!!

 

I’m taking that one from now on! I’ve been a bugger for that in the past! Things can get misconstrued within a text and it’s simply best to either call on the phone or face to face. I’m also the same - I couldn’t let him go to work away like he does on an argument. If we argue, it makes me feel physically sick, deep down in the pit of my stomach. I hate it, but you sometimes have to have conflict (productive conflict?!) to make a start at solving anything. Better than seething and letting things fester and build resentment! 

Also I think, realistically as you get into a very long term, serious relationship, you realise in a stroke of love genius, that there are some problems you will never “solve” within your relationship. You’re both two different people, with different personalities. There is no perfect pinnacle of blissful 100% agreement smoothly on everything that magically happens once both become enlightened standing over the cake at their 60th wedding anniversary 🤣

 

I think to accept that, embrace it - is freeing and takes pressure off where pressure need not be! 
 

I liked your 80s couple story! 
 

I find it beyond fascinating to hear about couples dynamics who really work and have been together along time. I’m a bit obsessed with it! 
 

x

 

[mylolita]

8 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

And that wasn't bad? Sleeping in separate beds? I saw it growing up, and it left a bad taste in me. Didn't think it could be okay to do this and rekindle kindly.

Not for us Dark but again I imagine it depends on the couple and their personalities. 
 

In our 16 years together (we’ve lived together that long as well) this has happened about 6 times. To me, that’s quite realistic, especially since I’m a hot head! 
 

It’s how you make up that counts, in my opinion. And also, to make sure you’re not repeating the same argument and never getting anywhere with it. 
 

I’d be really interested in how other long term couples handle their conflicts? 
 

I don’t actually believe there are genuine relationships where no conflict arises. 
 

I do notice marriage and relationships change slightly once kids are involved. You have less time, more responsibility. Your love increases by a billion fold - but new aspects become apparent to you that I think couples without children wouldn’t understand or experience. 
 

I mean, you could probably have a 100 page thread on relationships during pregnancy, or after the birth of a baby for a start! 
 

I think if you can genuinely maintain respect, joy, romance, closeness and friendship whilst still managing conflicts that come up, and jobs and finances and children and all of the other things that happen in life - that anyone who can do that should feel no embarrassment to pat themselves on the back and acknowledge they are managing something that, as you know, near 50% of couples fail at.

 

The “never go to bed on an argument” traditional saying is a good one, but some couples need space after a big disagreement (that’s me) and trying to jump back into playing house would feel phoney, so the times we have had a big row, I’ve taken space and so has he, at least for a few hours. 
 

x

[mylolita]

4 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Yes same - we didn't do the checklist to that extent -the big stuff -we wanted - child/children, we had to discuss geography since I'd been in our city for close to 40 years and had my career there, family and  friends, and we already knew I wanted to be home full time with a child longer than maternity leave, we already knew the religion piece, our financial values and stability goals (and the fact we both were when we met and when we met again), and no chore list - we sort of evolved that over time especially since unusually I became a SAHM 3 months after marriage and in my head that meant I did over 90% of housework too and he also had suggested we get a cleaning service weekly (I opted for twice a month). 

There were surprises.  I didn't know he'd start traveling again once our son was 2 weeks old.  Until I was in my last trimester.  He thought I knew/surmised this.  I didn't know that there would be disagreements with my in laws related to our newborn and visiting us, etc. 

There were things about infant care I assumed he knew -why did I assume that -he was an only child and never babysat lol-which he totally didn't (baby was always fine!).  I didn't know I'd be as stressed out/anxious as I was as a new mom and I didn't know of course there would be a flu epidemic shortly after he was born which made that even worse for me. 

We had to navigate his parent becoming very ill shortly after we had our son and after we moved 800 miles away. 

And - 5 years in me discovering -ok hey I feel ready to go back to working outside the home.  I mean - what if that had happened one year in or -never? How could I really predict when that would happen and/or what if he decided hey I'd like you to work outside the home again. 

But the thing is on both our parts -we knew -and we  trusted that those decisions would be made with a lot of rationality, a lot of good reasons, a lot of common sense and a lot of respect. So huge stuff that shakes up the whole family -and it does for sure - when you shift from SAHM to then working - with a young child - isn't so huge when you're -committed, love each other, respect and admire each other. 

Then even huge stuff like - my mom is in hospice and I don't know what to do next, should I say something now that my husband is away 16 days instead of 5 with no end in sight because his dad is sick but our son - needs his daddy too!! - is - more manageable because you're a unit , a team, romantic partners too.  That's the thing you can talk and  talk before but really big stuff externally and internally happens.

I totally agree Batya! 
 

You’re a team - “us against the world” - and you want the best for each other. And you trust them completely, I think that is so vital as well but kind of forgotten about in long term relationships. I can feel you have zero trust issues from how you talk and it comes across.

 

One time another woman who was single said to me, “Don’t you worry about your husband cheating when he’s working away?” And, it had never even crossed my mind. Of course he’s not! Bitterly I think she was trying to stir the pot. I mean, you could say the same in reverse couldn’t you? While he’s away, doesn’t he worry I’m home alone in a big house meeting other guys? 🤣 This is the folly of the unstable, unmatched relationship, and thankfully not a problem we’ve ever dealt with. 
 

@yogacat! I just thought about your sister and you observing she looked so happy and everything seemed great! It made me think back to the divorced couples I know and you do hear, after they announce it, “But they seemed so happy?” And everyone is baffled. My sister was with her ex boyfriend 11 years and even I was slightly shocked when she said they were splitting up. She always told me how great he was with her but I do know they had disagreements about marriage and babies and him not working. I think she tried to hide that and pretend she wanted the same things he did. 
 

My only thought on the appearance of marital bliss is - people keep their relationships private, for the most part, so you’d never really know what went on behind closed doors. And secondly, people also put on a face and wear a mask in public, even to their own family sometimes. People don’t like to admit defeat or, obviously when you say you’re splitting up it is devastating news and peoples pride is hurt. Even unhappy couples sometimes make the effort to appear good and well, either for their children’s sake or to save face. Sometimes they are simply in denial as well, unfortunately. I’m just throwing stuff out here.

 

I’d love to hear how you handle conflict and other issues @Seraphim  because I know you have been married a million years (congratulations!!! 🥰) and I find it so admirable! Always curious to get any t*t bits!!! 🤣😍 La La Laaaaave! 
 

x

[mylolita]

@LootieTootie!

 

Congratulations on 8 years!!!

 

It’s so heart warming to hear this stuff!! 🥲🥲🥲🥲

 

I’m enjoying hearing all these long term relationship, marriage tips and opinions! 
 

It’s so nice to hear about something going right for a change, and all the good things people do for each other in committed relationships! It ain’t easy but kudos from me! *SALUTES* 
 

x

[woodsrose10]

23 hours ago, SherrySher said:

Before getting married, discuss bills, parenting style, debts, credit, religion, how to deal with one another's family together, what beliefs will be instilled in your children, childhood trauma, sexual expectations, partner expectations, financial expectations, family health history, mental health history, bucket list, life goals, dream home, careers and education, political views, and anything else you think is important.

"When 2 people love each other, they don't look at each other---they look in the same direction."
*~Ginger Rogers~*

[bluecastle]

@SherrySher Nice to see you on here. I realize this thread has unspooled plenty at this point, but I admit that your post initially triggered in me a question: Anything you're wanting to discuss here? Or just airing some general thoughts? Whatever the case, sending you good vibes and letting you know ears are here to bounce specific ideas around.

In the meantime, a riff from me to add to the chorus: 

I don't think there is really anything any two people can do to ensure their marriage will always bloom brighter than not or will last till the parting brought by death—two things that are not, of course, always the same. 

Philosophical question from which I'll eventually float back down from the clouds: How much does any one person know him or herself at any given moment? Ninety percent? Or a mere nine? Truth is, there is no answer and in my opinion anyone who says "I know who I am!" with a ton of bluster is on the defensive, hiding from blind spots. All which is both beautiful and frightening, a reminder that we are all, always, learning more about ourselves, evolving and shape-shifting in ways subtle and dramatic. 

Given that?

I don't know how much potential hurt, disconnect, isolation, friction, whatever can be staved off from an intense discussion of what you outlined in your post. Sure, it's important to have some key components understood, agreed upon, or agreed to disagree upon. But, heck, even components of this can change in time. What I thought was oh so very important when I was 30, say, is not so very important today, at 44. Which lets me know that, come 54, I may come to regard my North Stars of today as mere blips. In all that shifting who can say if it will result in my growing closer to, or further from, my partner? Only time has that one up its sleeve. 

My feeling is that our relationships with people help us come into ourselves, which is lovely, if also bittersweet, since it does't always mean we end up closer to the person who turned on those lights. We may think of ourselves, for example, as "not that political," so it doesn't matter that we pair off with someone who is stridently political or completely apathetic. In time, however, we realize that their views (or lack of them) is a sore spot. They showed us this, in ourselves. Alas, the sore spot now only gets sorer. And no pre-nuptial summit could have nipped that one, among others, in the bud, since it was the nuptials that brought it out.   

All of which is to say that, yes, there are many practical things to carefully consider before taking the leap. But luck remains no small factor in where, exactly, that leap will take two people. 

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, bluecastle said:

@SherrySher Nice to see you on here. I realize this thread has unspooled plenty at this point, but I admit that your post initially triggered in me a question: Anything you're wanting to discuss here? Or just airing some general thoughts? Whatever the case, sending you good vibes and letting you know ears are here to bounce specific ideas around.

In the meantime, a riff from me to add to the chorus: 

I don't think there is really anything any two people can do to ensure their marriage will always bloom brighter than not or will last till the parting brought by death—two things that are not, of course, always the same. 

Philosophical question from which I'll eventually float back down from the clouds: How much does any one person know him or herself at any given moment? Ninety percent? Or a mere nine? Truth is, there is no answer and in my opinion anyone who says "I know who I am!" with a ton of bluster is on the defensive, hiding from blind spots. All which is both beautiful and frightening, a reminder that we are all, always, learning more about ourselves, evolving and shape-shifting in ways subtle and dramatic. 

Given that?

I don't know how much potential hurt, disconnect, isolation, friction, whatever can be staved off from an intense discussion of what you outlined in your post. Sure, it's important to have some key components understood, agreed upon, or agreed to disagree upon. But, heck, even components of this can change in time. What I thought was oh so very important when I was 30, say, is not so very important today, at 44. Which lets me know that, come 54, I may come to regard my North Stars of today as mere blips. In all that shifting who can say if it will result in my growing closer to, or further from, my partner? Only time has that one up its sleeve. 

My feeling is that our relationships with people help us come into ourselves, which is lovely, if also bittersweet, since it does't always mean we end up closer to the person who turned on those lights. We may think of ourselves, for example, as "not that political," so it doesn't matter that we pair off with someone who is stridently political or completely apathetic. In time, however, we realize that their views (or lack of them) is a sore spot. They showed us this, in ourselves. Alas, the sore spot now only gets sorer. And no pre-nuptial summit could have nipped that one, among others, in the bud, since it was the nuptials that brought it out.   

All of which is to say that, yes, there are many practical things to carefully consider before taking the leap. But luck remains no small factor in where, exactly, that leap will take two people. 

Can I pry blue castle and ask your relationship status? 
 

Ever been married or in a long term relationship? 
 

Nice ideas a lot I agree with! 
 

x

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

do notice marriage and relationships change slightly once kids are involved. You have less time, more responsibility. Your love increases by a billion fold - but new aspects become apparent to you that I think couples without children wouldn’t understand or experience. 

I've seen the same happen when one person becomes the caregiver for an aging parent or a sibling with disabilities especially if it involves sharing living space. I think with kids it does change but how -depends- depends on whether both wanted to start a family -and how it started- in the same way/same wavelength, whether one parent is home full time and whether there is family help around plus how that is experienced by the couple.  Also whether one spouse or both have kids from other marriages/relationships.

We were married under 3 months when we became parents. We were in a commuter marriage that first 3 months plus my husband had outpatient surgery lol.  It was a lot! So I can't say if it changed anything lol

[bluecastle]

Just now, mylolita said:

Can I pry blue castle and ask your relationship status? 
 

Ever been married or in a long term relationship? 
 

 

I'm coming up on six years with my partner, which is my longest relationship, so my experience in this realm is larva stage at best. But put a gun to my head and heart and I'll tell you I want only 60 more, as I love the adventure of living my life alongside her, to say nothing of the way she goes about inhabiting herself.

Never been married, no. Not against it, but it's never been a North Star for me.

[mylolita]

@Batya33

 

Just wanted to add something that stood out to me about when you spoke of your husband! 
 

That you seem to accept his traits that aren’t like yours, and you’ve both embraced and accepted and worked around this! 
 

It reminds me of a line from a Paula Abdullah song I love:

 

”And all I want from you is what you are”

 

That really summarises true love for me. You don’t try to pick apart, change, manipulate, or control the other. You love them because of them and who they are; not some fantasy “perfect” version of themselves or this worked on, worked out; betterment future partner! 
 

I read that a lot here and it always makes me sad. You either love and accept someone as they stand, or in my opinion you have to find someone else! 
 

It ties back with what @SherrySher said - quite a lot of couples enter into a serious relationship knowing they have major, incompatible differences and they still try to change the other or think well, further down the line, we’ll alter that! 
 

True love to me is embracing even the “bad” or “not so great” bits and loving them ever as dear as the “good!” It sounds corny and silly but it’s true for me anyway. If someone said you can change anything about your husband in one magic wand swoop, I honest to God wouldn’t change a thing. And I think that’s when you know! You’re mad about them and totally besotted! Any change is almost criminal vandalism of the heart!!!
 

x

[mylolita]

12 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I've seen the same happen when one person becomes the caregiver for an aging parent or a sibling with disabilities especially if it involves sharing living space. I think with kids it does change but how -depends- depends on whether both wanted to start a family -and how it started- in the same way/same wavelength, whether one parent is home full time and whether there is family help around plus how that is experienced by the couple.  Also whether one spouse or both have kids from other marriages/relationships.

Yes, I could imagine anything that takes valuable time away from the couple to be a couple and be alone could be something that needs to be navigated around.

 

I personally found when I just had my son, it was easy to maintain the usual and not much changed. My husband still worked away and I held the fort gladly and with ease. It was only after my third that I started really relying on his help, I genuinely needed him on a practical level where I didn’t before. He filled his father role of course and is an absolutely amazing hands on Dad but the juggling for me started at the third.

 

Sometimes I look at other Mums I know who have 4, 5 or 6 children and I wonder how they work time as a couple into that and what the dynamic is like at home! Maybe it’s not much different but I wouldn’t know. 
 

I also imagine having a disabled child could drastically alter the couples time and dynamic - roles within the relationship etc. My husbands parents are both getting into their 70s now. I imagine I will have these issues of aging parents in the next decade at least. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it and I suppose like everything when you’re in a partnership - you have to work round it and get into your own routine of dealing with whatever crops up! 
 

I do think time as a couple is essential, and the more kids you have, especially if you have a few that are very young - the more challenging that gets. I remember when I just had my son as a 6 month old the baby sitting offers rolled in thick and fast. Once I had 3 under 4 years old - no more offers - LOL! 
 

x

[Batya33]

12 minutes ago, mylolita said:

do think time as a couple is essential, and the more kids you have, especially if you have a few that are very young - the more challenging that gets. I remember when I just had my son as a 6 month old the baby sitting offers rolled in thick and fast. Once I had 3 under 4 years old - no more offers - LOL! 

When I was almost 17 I was a mother's helper live in for the summer in the Hamptons.  Two kids.  2 and 5.  One night the parents went out with another couple who left their 2 small children with me as well -under 5.  4 in all lol.  2 I'd never met.  I made the bad choice of having a quick phone call with the man I was having a summer romance with while all 4 kids watched TV. Within 5 minutes:  the two new kids came over to me while on the phone.  The younger one was crying -not hurt -like some sibling issue.  I tried to keep talking.  Then the older one poured orange juice over the younger one's head which made the younger one pee on the floor.  A lovely orangey yellow puddle on the kitchen floor so I had to end my call.  So yes it certainly interferes with adult time!

I found having one all on my own, alone was very challenging particularly because of my postpartum stroke and my worries that I'd have another one, etc.  I think new motherhood is so different for so many and there are so many pressure inducing "shoulds" ranging from breastfeeding to date nights to how you should feel about your new baby.

Which circles back -it's one of those life changing events where as Bluecastle commented -you cannot totally predict how you will respond to parenthood, whether the person who chose to be at home ends up liking that lifestyle etc.  But to me marriage is also about making that commitment knowing you don't know - it's a leap of faith. 

So both of you go in with genuine and authentic and loving intentions and -for sure if there are drastic changes related to not knowing like "I did not know I was a person who took delight in finishing my partner's favorite dessert he hid in the back of the refrigerator" or "I did not know I was a person who actually wants to have sex with women and I am married to a man" then I can see where the couple might choose to part ways (you can see my bias in my examples) - but if it's something you knew going in - then you say "well I changed so I'm no longer good with his plan to pursue medicine in third world countries which he's wanted to do since he was around 13" -I'm -not as cool with that.  Personally. 

So it is something to be discussed "look (as in my case) you promised you would relocate for my career and you knew how important my career was to me and now you have realized you're a homebody who loves living in Manhattan" -I don't know if I can give up my dream career so now what" -to me the spouse doesn't get a pass for "but we never really know ourselves! I am now a homebody and I have to continue living in this high rent district!!"

I mean - maybe that's why it's called leap of faith/taking the plunge.  And what shocked me the most about getting married- me -who loves loves structure/routine/having things in control - I mean not only did I marry knowing I'd promised to relocate (by then I knew where but I'd promised before I knew where), and get pregnant without getting an amnio or CVS despite being so old, and married a man I hadn't wanted to marry 11 years earlier - and yet -that day we got married -I was joking around with my big sister minutes before the wedding in the kitchen (traditional for bride not to see groom right before) - and as I've written here it felt so magical and natural all wrapped up in one. 

And the worst part of our honeymoon was the darn starbucks where I asked at the hotel "do you have decaf -I can't have caffeine" and they gave me caffeine -which I realized right before I took a sip but -I mean -still - too much lack of control lol. 

I surprised -myself - that I went with the crazy flow.  Why because I was head over heels -I mean - no not really -we'd then been together for years -no whirlwind and for sure I was in love but I used head and heart -this wasn't all of the "on the wings of love" decision - and yet - it made sense to me, it felt right, to make all these drastic changes and promise forever to my sweetie who met me at the door that morning in an undershirt and pants cause he's always late even though our son was 9 days early.   

[mylolita]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

When I was almost 17 I was a mother's helper live in for the summer in the Hamptons.  Two kids.  2 and 5.  One night the parents went out with another couple who left their 2 small children with me as well -under 5.  4 in all lol.  2 I'd never met.  I made the bad choice of having a quick phone call with the man I was having a summer romance with while all 4 kids watched TV. Within 5 minutes:  the two new kids came over to me while on the phone.  The younger one was crying -not hurt -like some sibling issue.  I tried to keep talking.  Then the older one poured orange juice over the younger one's head which made the younger one pee on the floor.  A lovely orangey yellow puddle on the kitchen floor so I had to end my call.  So yes it certainly interferes with adult time!

I found having one all on my own, alone was very challenging particularly because of my postpartum stroke and my worries that I'd have another one, etc.  I think new motherhood is so different for so many and there are so many pressure inducing "shoulds" ranging from breastfeeding to date nights to how you should feel about your new baby.

Which circles back -it's one of those life changing events where as Bluecastle commented -you cannot totally predict how you will respond to parenthood, whether the person who chose to be at home ends up liking that lifestyle etc.  But to me marriage is also about making that commitment knowing you don't know - it's a leap of faith. 

So both of you go in with genuine and authentic and loving intentions and -for sure if there are drastic changes related to not knowing like "I did not know I was a person who took delight in finishing my partner's favorite dessert he hid in the back of the refrigerator" or "I did not know I was a person who actually wants to have sex with women and I am married to a man" then I can see where the couple might choose to part ways (you can see my bias in my examples) - but if it's something you knew going in - then you say "well I changed so I'm no longer good with his plan to pursue medicine in third world countries which he's wanted to do since he was around 13" -I'm -not as cool with that.  Personally. 

So it is something to be discussed "look (as in my case) you promised you would relocate for my career and you knew how important my career was to me and now you have realized you're a homebody who loves living in Manhattan" -I don't know if I can give up my dream career so now what" -to me the spouse doesn't get a pass for "but we never really know ourselves! I am now a homebody and I have to continue living in this high rent district!!"

I mean - maybe that's why it's called leap of faith/taking the plunge.  And what shocked me the most about getting married- me -who loves loves structure/routine/having things in control - I mean not only did I marry knowing I'd promised to relocate (by then I knew where but I'd promised before I knew where), and get pregnant without getting an amnio or CVS despite being so old, and married a man I hadn't wanted to marry 11 years earlier - and yet -that day we got married -I was joking around with my big sister minutes before the wedding in the kitchen (traditional for bride not to see groom right before) - and as I've written here it felt so magical and natural all wrapped up in one. 

And the worst part of our honeymoon was the darn starbucks where I asked at the hotel "do you have decaf -I can't have caffeine" and they gave me caffeine -which I realized right before I took a sip but -I mean -still - too much lack of control lol. 

I surprised -myself - that I went with the crazy flow.  Why because I was head over heels -I mean - no not really -we'd then been together for years -no whirlwind and for sure I was in love but I used head and heart -this wasn't all of the "on the wings of love" decision - and yet - it made sense to me, it felt right, to make all these drastic changes and promise forever to my sweetie who met me at the door that morning in an undershirt and pants cause he's always late even though our son was 9 days early.   

I love this Batya!!!

 

I laughed out loud - honestly! At your recollection of the baby sitting all those young kids! Oh man! You are recalling every half hour of my life nearly 🤣 I was seasoning some chicken breast in the kitchen yesterday, left all three of ‘em alone for ten minutes and both my eldest came through in tears and then my 2 year old followed looking wide eyed. Oldest had a big physical fight and my daughter had lashed out and scratched my son right down his cheek! I didn’t know exactly what had happened but you just have to laugh it up sometimes after the fact! 
 

That’s a funny story!!

 

Anyway I digress! 🤪

 

I totally agree. It is, of course, something you can never technically know. But I don’t think many people get married because they know for certain everything will work out. I think successful marriages happen because the couple really want to make that formal and legal commitment to each other and believe in each other as a couple! There is trust there of course.

I look forward so much to another 16 years, plus 50 🥲🤣 

 

I agree with Sherry as a married woman about her premise - it makes sense, but there is also more to it and well, making a marriage work takes work! You’re saying, “I won’t leave, no matter how bad it gets (within reason, obviously)” and that is a very good, solid foundation to build something very special on.

 

I’m not ashamed to be openly proud of my marriage and I want to shout from the hills like a teenager that I’m in LOVE! All the time! Other people often comment that I always talk about my husband. It’s true! But, he’s as much a part of me as I am, and he’s my favourite guy ever!! And he blows me away! Course I’m gonna not be able to shut up about him! 
 

I admire and want to learn from any married couples - as a traditional romantic, I think it’s a totally awesome thing. But a serious thing. Not to be taken lightly.

 

I think even single people and people in long term but not married relationships understand the gravitas of marriage, hence why many don’t just throw themselves into it on a whim! 

 

It’s an achievement Batya and I hope you are proud and everyone else is who are in successful, long and happy lasting relationships up here in ENA! 
 

It can often be so negative here that I’m relieved to read this subject on marriage and what can give a marriage good foundations! It’s a great topic and ever so important in todays modern, changing times! 
 

x
 

 

[mylolita]

Also, just to add. 
 

I asked my husband this once - why he wanted to get married, why he valued marriage. He said something unexpected. 
 

He told me; when he made me his wife, he sent a universal signal to everyone that he meant business, and was serious. He used this example:

 

”When I introduce you to someone, and I say, this is my girlfriend - no one really knows what that means. When I introduce you and I say, this is my wife - everyone knows what that means. It means I’m serious.” 
 

I know people could disagree with this and bring up examples of terrible husbands and married cheaters and the rest; but to my husband, personally, it was the ultimate thing he could offer me in assured commitment. It was important to him and it was also important to me.

 

If, when we met, he hadn’t been traditionally minded, I don’t know if we would have worked. He wouldn’t have been “him” anyway - so I guess it wouldn’t have got off the ground. 
 

I actually advocate marriage in a big way, despite being a libertarian type and non-religious and a millennial 🥲 I still genuinely believe it’s the best structure we have to carry out a serious relationship in and raise kids. I’m not going to lie - when I hear about people getting engaged, I’m delighted! 
 

But of course, to echo Sherry’s original point - the basics need to be there. 
 

x

[yogacat]

3 hours ago, mylolita said:

I just thought about your sister and you observing she looked so happy and everything seemed great! It made me think back to the divorced couples I know and you do hear, after they announce it, “But they seemed so happy?” And everyone is baffled. My sister was with her ex boyfriend 11 years and even I was slightly shocked when she said they were splitting up. She always told me how great he was with her but I do know they had disagreements about marriage and babies and him not working. I think she tried to hide that and pretend she wanted the same things he did. 
 

My only thought on the appearance of marital bliss is - people keep their relationships private, for the most part, so you’d never really know what went on behind closed doors. And secondly, people also put on a face and wear a mask in public, even to their own family sometimes. People don’t like to admit defeat or, obviously when you say you’re splitting up it is devastating news and peoples pride is hurt. Even unhappy couples sometimes make the effort to appear good and well, either for their children’s sake or to save face. Sometimes they are simply in denial as well, unfortunately. I’m just throwing stuff out here.

True. But I also think some parts of society looks as marriage as some sort of trophy.

A married couple/family is seen as "something that you've achieved" and that "your life is something" if you're married.

I see this with friends and coworkers who are constantly asking about "when will you find a man to marry".

Once a couple commits to marriage, they end up trying to mould themselves into the "perfect family" and can sweep issues under the table. Once the kids start piling up, it is easy to focus on the kids and they think that backs them up and glue them together.

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, yogacat said:

True. But I also think some parts of society looks as marriage as some sort of trophy.

A married couple/family is seen as "something that you've achieved" and that "your life is something" if you're married.

I see this with friends and coworkers who are constantly asking about "when will you find a man to marry".

Once a couple commits to marriage, they end up trying to mould themselves into the "perfect family" and can sweep issues under the table. Once the kids start piling up, itis easy to focus on the kids and they think that backs them up and glue them together.

I definitely think it’s an achievement! 
 

I say to anyone who hasn’t tried it - try raising a family well and keeping a loving relationship for over a decade; and if you do that, trust me, it’s something to be darn proud of because it’s so hard and such a test! 
 

I think it is exceptionally admirable and yes, something that gets my respect for sure. Raising children well and having a loving marriage is no small feat. 
 

I think anyone sensible knows there is no “perfect family” and if they are mature and grown up enough, and secure enough, will joke and openly admit to anyone that they aren’t perfect, their spouse isn’t and definitely, no kid is! Oh my God! Anyone who’s around kids knows even the best and sweetest children have their off days, bad moments, and tantrums (just like adults!) 

 

If the married couples you know are plastering a false sense of perfection and projecting that out, I would argue from my point of view people do that from all walks of life, to do with their careers, or even single people - and I think social media exacerbates this pressure, and amplifies peoples need to do this. 
 

I’m not on social media and haven’t been for about 8 years, but I will say to many people who ask - that I am happily married and love being married, adore being a mother and take huge pride in doing both those things to my best. 
 

If people think that’s stuck up or showing off I don’t care! My sister says the same thing. She once said in an argument to me, “You think you know more because you’re a married mother” and frankly; it’s a huge life experience and compared to her? I do know more, in that area, of course. 
 

I don’t ask single women for marriage advice but I also wouldn’t ask a stay at home mum like me for advice on careers or work place things.

 

I uphold marriage and traditional values and am not ashamed to say it! 
 

But on the other hand - I don’t care if women and men choose to stay single. It’s everyone’s lives. As long as it’s legal, it doesn’t matter to me what they do on a personal level. I think it’s better for society and better for couples to be married, and better for children to be raised within a loving, stable marriage - but that’s just my personal view. Liberally minded people and modern women and men don’t share that view but trust me, I know that 🤣

 

I’m one of those weird traditional last housewives standing types! 
 

I think it’s fantastic you are happy being single and not in a rush. Better to be single than in a relationship that’s not working just for the sake of it, or because you think that’s “what you should do”. No one should make you feel bad for not being married. People may say that in jest with a wink wink and mean nothing serious by it as well.

 

x

[yogacat]

5 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I definitely think it’s an achievement! 
 

I say to anyone who hasn’t tried it - try raising a family well and keeping a loving relationship for over a decade; and if you do that, trust me, it’s something to be darn proud of because it’s so hard and such a test! 
 

I think it is exceptionally admirable and yes, something that gets my respect for sure. Raising children well and having a loving marriage is no small feat. 
 

I think anyone sensible knows there is no “perfect family” and if they are mature and grown up enough, and secure enough, will joke and openly admit to anyone that they aren’t perfect, their spouse isn’t and definitely, no kid is! Oh my God! Anyone who’s around kids knows even the best and sweetest children have their off days, bad moments, and tantrums (just like adults!) 

 

If the married couples you know are plastering a false sense of perfection and projecting that out, I would argue from my point of view people do that from all walks of life, to do with their careers, or even single people - and I think social media exacerbates this pressure, and amplifies peoples need to do this. 
 

I’m not on social media and haven’t been for about 8 years, but I will say to many people who ask - that I am happily married and love being married, adore being a mother and take huge pride in doing both those things to my best. 
 

If people think that’s stuck up or showing off I don’t care! My sister says the same thing. She once said in an argument to me, “You think you know more because you’re a married mother” and frankly; it’s a huge life experience and compared to her? I do know more, in that area, of course. 
 

I don’t ask single women for marriage advice but I also wouldn’t ask a stay at home mum like me for advice on careers or work place things.

 

I uphold marriage and traditional values and am not ashamed to say it! 
 

But on the other hand - I don’t care if women and men choose to stay single. It’s everyone’s lives. As long as it’s legal, it doesn’t matter to me what they do on a personal level. I think it’s better for society and better for couples to be married, and better for children to be raised within a loving, stable marriage - but that’s just my personal view. Liberally minded people and modern women and men don’t share that view but trust me, I know that 🤣

 

I’m one of those weird traditional last housewives standing types! 
 

I think it’s fantastic you are happy being single and not in a rush. Better to be single than in a relationship that’s not working just for the sake of it, or because you think that’s “what you should do”. No one should make you feel bad for not being married. People may say that in jest with a wink wink and mean nothing serious by it as well.

Umm, achievement in whose eyes? Society has so much pressure to marry, as a women- find a man, get married and have kids is how we’ve approached life for centuries and centuries. People in the past got married for things like financial security or because they were with someone suitable to start a business with or because it’s “what you do” and it was expected.

Marriage was not supposed to bring love and happiness and was more of a practical agreement - still is in some cultures or people will say, “Well I’m not leaving, I’ve been here 25 years, it’s just a piece of paper, it’s fine for the house and the kids”. 

Marriage can have legal benefits if you have children or if one person plans to stay at home, but outside of those situations, it may not be necessary and was not originally intended to be seen as "4th base" like a lot of people treat it in modern days.

It's an achievement if you WANT that and that is what YOU WANT, but I don't think it should be an achievement if you want it because society implants that finding the right spouse is a worthy accomplishment in life, which it's not. But it's the principles and love that's the achievement, not the piece of paper.

One doesn't need to be married to raise children well.

[LootieTootie]

12 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Have you done it without?

Awww weekly date night! That's cute. Are you able to sustain it?

To your first question, yes when I was really young, I feel in love with a guy, my first love. I really thought I would marry him so I waited for him to get back from Iraq, that was the plan- to get marry after the war. Little did I know, he was coping by smoking and drinking. He also become this person I never seen before - angry, insecure and frat-boyish. Any way, thankfully, he knew he wasn't who he used to be and he had changed a lot and broke up with me. I was still in denial and wanted to marry him. I really do think if I had lived with him, I would have experienced all his vices first hand and said nah. Sometimes you have to experience reality to stop falling in love with the past/fantasy.

Second question, I think for the most part my husband and I do a good job of being consistent with the weekly date nights. It's not a big deal if we don't keep it due to schedule conflict - sometimes he travels for work or sometimes we have functions all weekend. 

18 hours ago, Capricorn3 said:

We never have things like "chore lists" for me to do, or him to do - I find that incredibly weird and more something I would do with very young children etc.  

 

Right... I remembered reading a post on ENA about someone giving their husband or lived in boyfriend a chore list every day. That had to be the most strangest thing I read on here.

[mylolita]

25 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Umm, achievement in whose eyes? Society has so much pressure to marry, as a women- find a man, get married and have kids is how we’ve approached life for centuries and centuries. People in the past got married for things like financial security or because they were with someone suitable to start a business with or because it’s “what you do” and it was expected.

Marriage was not supposed to bring love and happiness and was more of a practical agreement - still is in some cultures or people will say, “Well I’m not leaving, I’ve been here 25 years, it’s just a piece of paper, it’s fine for the house and the kids”. 

Marriage can have legal benefits if you have children or if one person plans to stay at home, but outside of those situations, it may not be necessary and was not originally intended to be seen as "4th base" like a lot of people treat it in modern days.

It's an achievement if you WANT that and that is what YOU WANT, but I don't think it should be an achievement if you want it because society implants that finding the right spouse is a worthy accomplishment in life, which it's not. But it's the principles and love that's the achievement, not the piece of paper.

One doesn't need to be married to raise children well.

I mean, of course it’s an achievement to have a lasting, happy marriage! It’s hard work! 
 

I mean, imagine if, when I was at my Grandma’s 60th wedding anniversary, I was like, “So what! To hell with all this cr*p! It’s the patriarchy! He just wanted to control you!” 
 

No! They were in love and he died a year after her he couldn’t take not living without her. What they had was beautiful, hard work - deserved to be upheld by society and celebrated! I congratulated them and wished one day I could be so lucky! 
 

Nowadays - marriage is changing. Women have many options. You could argue women who choose to marry now are doing it even more for love and the principle of it, because we don’t need men for security, protection, etc etc like 1000 years ago.

 

And also, just because something is old, doesn’t make it automatically wrong, or in need of constant reform. 
 

There are huge benefits and pleasures to being married. If it’s not for you - which it is not Yoga - then it makes no difference to you whether people feel proud of their long marriages, or choose to celebrate martial mile stones like 10 years, 20 years and on and on. 
 

I’m a huge romantic and think it’s absolutely fantastic! I congratulate anyone who is in a happy marriage. It is part luck (to find the right person) but the luck ends there soon after. 
 

If you feel pressure from society that is your feeling you are giving permission too. It’s expected I had a career and went to university but I didn’t. People pass comment and judgement about it but I don’t care. I congratulate anyone with a degree and say well done - I imagine it’s hard work and deserves celebration. So so many things, including marriage, in my opinion.

 

If you don’t believe in the concept of marriage that’s absolutely fine - not many people (especially in my generation) do! So you’re definitely not alone in being happy independent and living your own life, your way! I went the traditional route and personally think that’s a fine way to go, but it’s not the only way. 
 

Other people have very different views and perspectives on what success or achievement is, and it will vary from person to person. My sister puts no stock in marriage and tells me she’ll never marry and have children and it’s not her scene and honestly, I think that’s absolutely fine if she means it. Some women say that and don’t mean it - some women feel shame admitting they would like to be married and have kids, as if it is selling their gender short, or “aiming low” as my sister says! 
 

As I said, I’m only 16 years into a marriage. On the grand scheme of things, it’s small change. But I do think it makes me slightly qualified to give marriage advice! I know a little, not everything. 
 

x

[mylolita]

And of course, you can raise kids in a crack den if you care too - but reasonably and realistically what is best for children is a mum and a dad who love each other, in a committed, stable relationship. Ideally they have siblings or lots of friends too. Kids need to socialise and play with other kids.

 

That’s not an extremist view, it’s common sense to me. Being married gives a strong message to your children that you both made a promise in public, legally, to stay together. 
 

My son asked me about my wedding ring once when he was 4 and I told him “it’s a symbol that me and Daddy love each other forever, and it reminds me of him when I look at it” he liked that. 
 

Our kids also love getting out our wedding album and looking through them. I don’t talk about marriage because, why would I, they are tiny and have no concept of it, but they like those pictures because they see their Mum and Dad hugging and kissing and in love and yes, making a promise to each other. And it was a cool party! And a bit glam! 
 

Couples who don’t want to get married but still want children will I imagine discuss this. It happens all the time now - couples live together for years, have children, never marry. It’s quite normal now. Two couples on our road are in this exact same position. One had a baby by mistake and the other already had a boy of 7 and recently had another baby girl. I don’t look down on them. I do personally think it would be nice if they got married, but again, it’s their choice. 
 

I grew up in a household where my Mum and Dad were married and so were my Grandparents and there has been a string example of long lasting marriages in my family and my husbands. It’s been a great example and something I personally aspired towards. 
 

My Mum and Dad recently celebrated 36 years married and I think that’s fantastic! 
 

x

[DarkCh0c0]

11 minutes ago, mylolita said:

grew up in a household where my Mum and Dad were married and so were my Grandparents and there has been a string example of long lasting marriages in my family and my husbands. It’s been a great example and something I personally aspired towards. 

Is it the same for your husband? You seem both confident in the marriage 🩷

[LootieTootie]

1 hour ago, yogacat said:

Once a couple commits to marriage, they end up trying to mould themselves into the "perfect family" and can sweep issues under the table. Once the kids start piling up, it is easy to focus on the kids and they think that backs them up and glue them together.

I echo what mylolita said about marriage is changing. When my husband and I got married, parents kept asking when we were going to have children. We said we weren't but that didnt stop them. 8 years later, they finally stopped. It's probably because they now think I'm too old (hitting 40 soon) LOL.

I do see a lot of marry couples now without kids. I know a whole lot of them - from work and at dog parks. Definitely I think every longterm couple relationship will have issues, regardless of the married or unmarried status. I say that most people who are in a longterm committed relationship will always be inclined to work it out with their significant other, even if that means sweeping the issues under the table.

 

[mylolita]

13 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Is it the same for your husband? You seem both confident in the marriage 🩷

Hey Dark! 
 

Yes he also has a good track record of long term marriages but I will say his Mum and Dad, although still married, probably shouldn’t be married. They have had major rough patches and I think it is a living convenience at the moment, so that is a negative thing. 
 

By the way, I am not advocating marriage for marriage sake! Or just staying married because you feel shame in being divorced. Some couples shouldn’t be together. People make mistakes, it happens. 
 

But to me, I also see people checking out easily and too early, over things that (in my opinion) aren’t divorce worthy and look like they could be fixed! This is where the work part comes in! Prepare, for example, if you’re married 10 years - to have a “not so great year”. This may be the year someone falls sick. Someone struggles with their mental health. Finances crash. Your children get sick or maybe you have to move house lots. You have to be realistic in knowing if you’re going to share your life with someone as a partnership, things are gonna get rocky sometimes. Those months or years are gonna be very tough. You’re gonna argue more, potentially. It’s how you argue and how you make up and both your willingness to fix things and know your love is worth it no matter what that will keep you both through! 
 

I am a realist. I know life will test me. I’m 34 and the odds of me suffering a tragedy at some point in my life are quite high. Hopefully I will have my husband by my side and he is my rock! This is the point of it all. We’ll face these things together! 
 

And Dark, you have to be confident in your marriage or it won’t work in my opinion. You have to weirdly “know” it’s going to work. That self belief and trust pulls you through. I speak for myself when I say I couldn’t be without him. I know he feels the same way, not because he says it, even though he has - but through his actions, and how his actions prove to me after all these years that I’m still his gal! Y’know! And he’s MY GUY! 
 

We’ve never done lists though 🤣 as mentioned here! 
 

Each to their own 😂

 

Would you like to be married some day if you meet the right person @DarkCh0c0 or is it maybe not for you? 
 

x