Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[mylolita]

And I mean, that aside, with all respect to Robert Greenes books on seduction (whether in the work place, for friendship, or romance), I could say, working as an exotic dancer for 3 years and coming across thousands of men in what is actually their strangely vulnerable moments, and talking to them, naked or not, I feel I could add some side notes myself on the topic that is, SEDUCTION! 
 

I mean, enough to fill a book. 
 

So Robert Greene… y’know, watch out there 🤣

And if you know his writing, I will just throw in that the seduction method or category I fell into according to his book was: THE DANDY! 
 

Anyway, jokes aside. I do wish everyone the best of luck with dating and however they approach it. If it works for you, it works for you! The proof is in the pudding. 

 

“The course of true love never did run smooth!!!!!!” Said someone, called Shakespeare 💘
 

x

[yogacat]

I didn't watch Orion Taraban's video. 

His views are fundamentally flawed. He has this mindset that men have numerous options and that women must resort to being promiscuous in order to ensnare them. 🤨 He also believes women must then make themselves "useful" in order to keep the man and benefit from his resources. This reductionist mindset reduces women to mere objects whose only desire is to exploit men. This is truly misogynistic.

Men are not inherently more desirable or sought-after. Women have just as many if not more options when it comes to relationships and dating. Paint women as desperate beings who must resort to promiscuity to secure a partner. Bleh.

Just thought I'd comment on that.😉

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, yogacat said:

I didn't watch Orion Taraban's video. 

His views are fundamentally flawed. He has this mindset that men have numerous options and that women must resort to being promiscuous in order to ensnare them. 🤨 He also believes women must then make themselves "useful" in order to keep the man and benefit from his resources. This reductionist mindset reduces women to mere objects whose only desire is to exploit men. This is truly misogynistic.

Men are not inherently more desirable or sought-after. Women have just as many if not more options when it comes to relationships and dating. Paint women as desperate beings who must resort to promiscuity to secure a partner. Bleh.

Just thought I'd comment on that.😉

Also  I'm not sure if seduction is a requirement -depends why the woman is interested in dating (or if she's interested in a hook up or fling). I was good at flirting -because I was an extrovert, very social, loved listening/hearing peoples' stories so flirting was a natural off shoot -but I didn't seek to "seduce." And I didn't like feeling like the man was trying to seduce me as its described.

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

I don’t think this approach is drastically wrong - I just think, it should be done with a bit of caution, as I believe your heart is not something that is casual, feelings aren’t casual, and your time isn’t casual, and dating to me, love in general, is anything but casual, so the casual easy going approach for me personally, made no sense. 

I agree with this^^ 100%!

To clarify because I suspect something may have gotten lost in translation, my heart and feelings have never been casual, including now.

Not to sound defensive but I am dating casually now until like I said, I meet a man for whom I DO have feelings and want to explore a relationship "with him."

Perhaps it will be with one of the two men I'm currently dating or another totally different man.

Other than a brief period around 7-8 years ago after my breakup with a long term boyfriend/fiancé, I have never casually dated. 

I'm trying it on now, because I'm in the process of healing from significant losses and not emotionally ready to jump back into another relationship which is what I've always done.  So this suits me, for now.

Plus I haven't met anyone special enough or that I have "feelings" for (other than a casual attraction) that would cause me to want anything more than casual. 

I'm not hurting anyone and I'm actually learning a lot about myself while doing so. So it's all good and positive! 

I think for a certain demographic of men like the men who frequent strip joints for example and certain men on the "manosphere" (not all men because such men have been evolving the last few years), YES they do prefer and value very young women (18-25 tops) and women who who are virgins.

I am not typically attracted or drawn to such men. Our values and mindsets differ too dramatically for me to ever feel an attraction to such men, beyond surface level. 

Fortunately, they are not the men I encounter or interact with in my daily life.  And when/if I do, it's a quick next. 

I do not discount your experiences Lolita however given what you described about your time and experience as a stripper/exotic dancer and that environment, and perhaps because of what YOU have observed in your own life since then, your personal views make a lot of sense and I respect them.

It's just NOT my world, what I have experienced or what I have observed and continue to observe in my life, that's all.

Hope that makes sense! 

 

 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

26 minutes ago, mylolita said:

The course of true love never did run smooth!!!!!!” Said someone, called Shakespeare 💘

Yes of course, I have quoted him often.  Not so much on this forum but another years ago.

That and "we tend to value more the things we have to work for a bit."

Applies to both men and women IMHO!  

[yogacat]

11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Also  I'm not sure if seduction is a requirement -depends why the woman is interested in dating (or if she's interested in a hook up or fling). I was good at flirting -because I was an extrovert, very social, loved listening/hearing peoples' stories so flirting was a natural off shoot -but I didn't seek to "seduce." And I didn't like feeling like the man was trying to seduce me as its described.

I dunno. I recall, on a 5th date, I sat on the lap of the man I was dating (we were in public at a venue).

We looked into each other's eyes and it felt like my heart was on fire but also melting like a honey flow. It was such an erotic moment, not in a sexual sense, but in an emotional connection kind of way. And I didn't feel like I was being seductive or trying to seduce him - it was just this certain element that stirred and seeped from within.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a requirement though - just a natural progression of feelings and attraction.

[rainbowsandroses]

9 minutes ago, yogacat said:

I dunno. I recall, on a 5th date, I sat on the lap of the man I was dating (we were in public at a venue).

We looked into each other's eyes and it felt like my heart was on fire but also melting like a honey flow. It was such an erotic moment, not in a sexual sense, but in an emotional connection kind of way. And I didn't feel like I was being seductive or trying to seduce him - it was just this certain element that stirred from within.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a requirement though - just a natural progression of feelings and  attraction.

I can relate to this^ yoga, thank you for posting it. 

Seduction doesn't necessarily mean some sort of planned strategy or even a specific intent, it's something that occurs naturally when two people are romantically attracted to each other. 

My experience.

[LootieTootie]

I didnt read everyone's post here but do agree with Blue Castle and Starlight. The deficiency in testosterone in men have significantly dropped, not just in America, but all over the world. 

I'm not an astrologist or claim to know a lot about it but I recalled reading this article about how the world goes thru astrological ages and we are are at the beginning of the Age of Aquarius, which would be an age of rebirth. In the past, astrologists believe that this astrological age happened during significant ideology and technological advancements. And we are at the dawn of one, meaning civilizations or cultural norms/idealogy dies and new ones are born and shaped by technology and progressive ideology. Aquarius is associated with idealism, technology, progressive and critical thinking and humanitarianism. Age of Aquarius brings in a balance of masculine and feminine energies where feminine energies was not as prominent as its predecessor (the Age of the Pieces). 

Any way, its interesting and just shows that how dating apps/social media (screen time) have shaped the dating paradigm and even society's. You have a lot of successful women in the dating pool,  they're looking for an equal. You have men who are wanting a woman who is fiscally independent and isn't afraid of a woman who can change her own tire. There's definitely a paradigm shift in how people are starting to view the roles of a man and a woman.

But then you have technology oversaturating people's brains that they get a kick of being virtual popular but not actually real-life commit to anything. Because everyone like Coily mentioned is risk-adverse.

On 3/21/2024 at 11:30 AM, yogacat said:

How can we be more cognizant of this and cultivate more meaningful relationships?

Do you think the lack of courting has changed the way men and women approach dating?

However, I am also an optimist and say that just because its hard to date now (thank goodness I'm not single any more) doesn't mean there aren't well-meaning people out there who will meet you halfway.

I am still a true believer that if someone wants to be with you, they will make that time!

[Batya33]

23 minutes ago, yogacat said:

I dunno. I recall, on a 5th date, I sat on the lap of the man I was dating (we were in public at a venue).

We looked into each other's eyes and it felt like my heart was on fire but also melting like a honey flow. It was such an erotic moment, not in a sexual sense, but in an emotional connection kind of way. And I didn't feel like I was being seductive or trying to seduce him - it was just this certain element that stirred and seeped from within.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a requirement though - just a natural progression of feelings and attraction.

To me that's not seduction -simply being romantic.

I casually dated temporarily at some points in my dating life. My heart/love wasn't involved -we simply went on dates - didn't have intercourse because it wasn't serious or committed - and the longest that was casual was 5 months but typically this was a couple of dates here and there.  Also had a few fun vacation flings with no future.  In all cases we were on the same page -the 5 month guy -just never got off the ground but we had fun together -and we stopped dating because we knew we weren't each other's person for forever.

When I got back together with my now husband it was serious from the get go - from when we got back together after seeing each other platonically three times- in terms of feelings, commitment, serious intentions.  

[Cherylyn]

I'll give you examples of courtship from the old time stories passed onto me from generations ago.  This is whether from my family or my husband's. 

In the old days,  it was very common to demonstrate interest in a girl,  meet her in the parlor for tea,  go through rituals of very dear,  close friendship towards the serious intention of the marriage minded.  Often times according to family lore,  bearing humble gifts such as a book of poetry (other safe topics) from someone's home with a handwritten inscription,  dating very briefly with a chaperone,  asking her father's permission for marriage,  a fairly quick engagement and marriage date were typical rituals.  This timeline was generally not long and drawn out.  Courtship was considered proper, very honorable and met society's expectations.

As I've initially mentioned earlier in this thread,  there was no contraception nor terminating pregnancy choices available back in the day.  Therefore, there were shotgun weddings,  quick marriage or in the worst case,  the woman was sent out of town to deliver the baby and possibly put the baby up for adoption in order to prevent stigma and ostracism.  It was a different world back then.

Fast forward to these modern times.  It's a real game changer now.  Women are strong.  We have our own money,  jobs and remain fiercely competitive to survive.  It's not only a level playing field nowadays but often times women have their own advantages due to strides by leaps and bounds.  This power reversal can be intimidating for some men to the point where the word "courtship" is very outdated and many women feel the same way.

There are no pressures to get married nowadays.  There's no urgency.  There are no more fears of pregnancy nor unwanted pregnancies.  Envisioning a barefoot and pregnant scenario is not as common as it was.  Women no longer feel shackled with limited choices.  Hence,  courtship is archaic and outdated. 

As for dating,  there are many definitions for that.  It's the couple's decision regarding which direction it goes and how they navigate it.  If there's serious disagreement,  then they part ways. 

Personally,  I'm relieved that courtship isn't de rigueur anymore.  Dating according to agreement is more reasonable,  realistic and fair. 

I believe in equality.  Sure,  chivalry is wonderful but it all boils down to being practical regarding relationships and long term survival no matter who you are. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, yogacat said:

I wouldn't necessarily call it a requirement though - just a natural progression of feelings and attraction.

Sounds like chemistry. It is essential if you want to continue with someone.

Unfortunately lolita seems to think anyone past 25 is past their prime, but I disagree with that. 

[yogacat]

46 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Unfortunately lolita seems to think anyone past 25 is past their prime, but I disagree with that. 

Well I think (or at least, wonder....) if the belief that a woman's value decreases after a certain age is due to working within the adult entertainment venue (strip club). I mean, I can see someone being exposed to that environment, constantly seeing women objectified and valued solely for their youth and physical appearance, and then internalizing that idea and believing it to be true.

[dias]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Unfortunately lolita seems to think anyone past 25 is past their prime, but I disagree with that. 

How dare she? We all know the prime age is 80. As they say an 80 years old is like 4 20 years old. 

[DarkCh0c0]

10 hours ago, mylolita said:

That women reach their highest sexual market value at 18 and decline from there, and men start to reach theirs from 30 onwards to 60. And that the smartest thing a woman can do is act and have the power to get the man she wants then and there, sooner the better, and the advice to the men was to actually wait, establish yourself, gain confidence, and the long term relationship with the woman you want will come.

Aiiaiaiii

I agree with you regarding the topic of oppression, but the above is cruel. So if you haven't found the love of your life by your 30s, you've got little sexual value?? 

We might be more fertile when we're in our early 20s, but we live in modern times where finding the love of our life and making children is not as straightforward as it used to be due to career, finances, personal baggage, ect. We can't lump sum and value women just by their fertility. It's non-sense.

[Kwothe28]

3 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

So if you haven't found the love of your life by your 30s, you've got little sexual value?? 

I dont think she said that, but she sure did ruffle some of your feathers with it lol

”Value” is a little hard to discuss. As it depends on a lot of factors such as societal norms or just individual ones. What has value in California doesnt have in other parts of US. Regarding anything, including values in dating. I talked about example of a woman in my town that complained to me how she needs to get married. As she lives in village and she is already “too old” there. She was 26 at the time. 26! In Capital that age is not so severe. So you could theoretically be 35+ and nobody would bath an eye. As everyone else around you is also 35+ unmarried. 
 

Also, I am sorry but generally speaking she has a point. Men don’t generally value your career choices. They usually dont care you are CEO. I am sorry, but that is a woman thing. But men would value you by beauty and yes even age of fertility. That both diminishes through time in general. I think waffle said it best on one other thread and how “Its man who value looks and women who value stuff like career. And how both genders make a mistake as they think what they value will get them success instead of pursuing what other gender values”. Its a bit rough, sure. But it does holds some truth in it. Ever seen a man say how he wants a “GirlBoss”? Ever seen a woman saying how she wants an “unsuccessful man”? We have a whole thread where woman said to a man how she wont date him if he isnt more successful. We dont have the same thread for men. We do have a bunch of ones where they pursue pretty unavailable women though.

Also, also, welcome back Choco, glad you are back. 😁

[DarkCh0c0]

9 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Ever seen a man say how he wants a “GirlBoss”? Ever seen a woman saying how she wants an “unsuccessful man”?

What?! Are saying men don't fall head over heels when I tell them how full my calendar is? 😄

There's some truth of course to what Lolita says, but not everyone is able to get married early AND to the right partner. Lots of people are divorced or busy with life. That's doesn't make them loose all their value by 30.

12 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Also, also, welcome back Choco, glad you are back. 😁

Thank you Kwothe 🥰 it's good to be briefly back.

Are you married or single?

[yogacat]

15 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Also, I am sorry but generally speaking she has a point. Men don’t generally value your career choices. They usually dont care you are CEO. I am sorry, but that is a woman thing. But men would value you by beauty and yes even age of fertility. That both diminishes through time in general. I think waffle said it best on one other thread and how “Its man who value looks and women who value stuff like career. And how both genders make a mistake as they think what they value will get them success instead of pursuing what other gender values”. Its a bit rough, sure. But it does holds some truth in it. Ever seen a man say how he wants a “GirlBoss”? Ever seen a woman saying how she wants an “unsuccessful man”? We have a whole thread where woman said to a man how she wont date him if he isnt more successful. We dont have the same thread for men. We do have a bunch of ones where they pursue pretty unavailable women though.

I agree, to a degree.

Albeit.

Men are often at a disadvantage when it comes to negotiating sex because men tend to have higher sexual motivation than women. Studies have shown that men in general have a stronger drive for sex. This means that in most situations where someone wants sex but doesn't get it, that person is likely to be male. Because of this, men are put at a disadvantage because of the "principle of least interest," which states that the less invested or motivated person has more control in a relationship. 

[DarkCh0c0]

On that topic, here's some humour on dating strong independent women from 0:44 to 1:25:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=79UUL2DYlms&pp=ygUmcmFjaG1hbiBibGFrZSBjb21lZHkgaW5kZXBlbmRlbnQgd29tZW4%3D

[Kwothe28]

30 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

There's some truth of course to what Lolita says, but not everyone is able to get married early AND to the right partner. Lots of people are divorced or busy with life. That's doesn't make them loose all their value by 30.

And that is OK. Not everyone even wants to get married or have kids. Lots of people wants to pursue career by choice so they postpone the other part. Its often even incentivized to do that by companies. “You want to work here? Well you better not want to start a family soon”. Its not by law here, but they often ask on job interviews whether you have a family or plan to start one soon. Especially to women for a certain reason. Sadly, it’s still like that sometimes. 
 

But anyway, my point is that I dont think they lose all their value since it’s highly debatable. But that it is perceived differently. Take 2 women of roughly the same physical look where one is 25-30 and other is 35+. And see who would fair better in dating market regardless if the one of 35+ is better career-wise since she did had more years invested into it. Other thing is that 25-30 probably has better “dating network”. As she probably has all her friends still not married and has more opportunities to go out with them and meet men. Though that is also debatable now with dating apps and all. Which is an own problem by itself. Even worst is if you add kids into mix. It’s generally rough out there for single moms. I dont think men fair better after certain time also. I have acquaintance who is often depressed as he is fairly pretty, plays in the band but is also divorced with a kid with and a dead end minimal wage job. So he pulled a lot of women while he was younger but now he just doesnt. Its just that men can benefit with age and career choice in a dating market a lot. Women rarely do. I am not saying that having a career is bad since its clearly not. Especially for people who want one. Just that it often doesnt help or at all for dating. 
 

Also “Yo Mike, she has a full schedule “ is funny. 😂

1 hour ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Are you married or single?

Single. I did OK for a while. But did have a family emergency. So only now getting back out there.

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, yogacat said:

duplicate, sorry!

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, yogacat said:

Well I think (or at least, wonder....) if the belief that a woman's value decreases after a certain age is due to working within the adult entertainment venue (strip club). I mean, I can see someone being exposed to that environment, constantly seeing women objectified and valued solely for their youth and physical appearance, and then internalizing that idea and believing it to be true.

As someone looking for marriage and family I attracted many more potentially good matches after my late 20s.  But that's because we're all individuals - I had more confidence, I was successful and dedicated in my second career (which yes mattered a lot to my potentially good matches, still does to my husband as his work ethic/ambition matters to me) and I'd never have been a  good match for a man who valued youth and looks to the extent implied - youth and looks matter -especially looks -but in my life -not to that degree. I was more of an ivory girl - cute, reasonably attractive - not at all glamorous looking in that sort of um exotic dancer way.

The hot looking men went for me at times for sure -I went for them at times for sure - and it depended how much that mattered to them.  And yes I went through times where I valued looks as arm candy and I know I was seen as arm candy/trophy in certain situations (not by my husband -I wouldn't have liked that at all).  

[Also the hair products were so much better in the early 2000s so yes straightening my hair with a ceramic iron was a good thing (which I stopped doing years ago thank goodness). I'm serious -it helped!]

Edited I wrote this before I read Kwok's -most of the men I dated with serious potential cared a lot about my work ethic/career/ambition plus my desire to have a family and be "home" full time for longer than maternity leave. 

When I had my first date with my husband in my late 20s -he was same age - one of the first questions he asked me was why I chose my career and he told me later he wanted a woman who wanted more in life than marriage/family (although he also loved that I wanted to be home full time and I relocated for his career).  He likes having varied discussions, likes that I'm smart and on a practical level if he didn't care I doubt he'd have been supportive of me working most of this past weekend when he just returned from a business trip.  He knows it's not just a job to me and he gets why.

What would have been the point of my "seducing" a man who didn't care about my professional dreams and goals and hard work if in day to day life I'd have had to struggle to explain why I was holed up with my laptop working on a deadline on a weekend -and I only work part time right now!

[MrMan1983]

On 3/21/2024 at 6:30 PM, yogacat said:

So I have a question. I was thinking about this the other day and that nowadays some men no longer feel the need to court women. Instead, the norm is to hang out and "chill" at someone's house or go to a bar for drinks. 

Let me preface this by saying that men that I have dated in the past, have been traditional in the sense that they were more traditional with their approach to dating. Though it may not be the case for everyone, this has been my experience.  

However, I have noticed that with some men in today's dating scene, the expectation is to just "hang out" and see where things go.

This is NOT a dig towards men, not in the least, I feel that some men have chosen not to put in the effort to court say due to bad past experiences like he got his heart broken or something terrible like that, thus explaining the change in behavior.

How can we be more cognizant of this and cultivate more meaningful relationships?

Do you think the lack of courting has changed the way men and women approach dating?

Haven't read all the other replies yet but to be honest when women or people on the apps have so many options and it's only a certain amount that lead to a second/third date it would get expensive to court women on a first date so it's better to do something cheap and cheerful. If it's a second or third date or you have established you clicked that's when the 'courting' and extra effort will begin.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, yogacat said:

I agree, to a degree.

Albeit.

Men are often at a disadvantage when it comes to negotiating sex because men tend to have higher sexual motivation than women. Studies have shown that men in general have a stronger drive for sex. This means that in most situations where someone wants sex but doesn't get it, that person is likely to be male. Because of this, men are put at a disadvantage because of the "principle of least interest," which states that the less invested or motivated person has more control in a relationship. 

We both had very strong desires. We both had the same values though so the priority wasn't giving in to desire but waiting till we were serious, exclusive, committed and in love.  I can't stand the generalization of men not being able to balance that -to be led by their private parts.  Some people are including in dating -I wasn't and I got involved with men who felt similarly.

[DarkCh0c0]

58 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Lots of people wants to pursue career by choice so they postpone the other part. Its often even incentivized to do that by companies. “You want to work here? Well you better not want to start a family soon”. Its not by law here, but they often ask on job interviews whether you have a family or plan to start one soon. Especially to women for a certain reason. Sadly, it’s still like that sometimes. 

It's indeed sadly like this in many countries :( My manager in the UK was demoted while she was on maternity leave. Instead of coming back to a higher position (almost director level, from being a C-team member), they gave her a lower position and she was harassed by her new male manager for using the breast pump privately during office hours!. Separately, I had an employee in my home country who was thankful to get a job at a place where the general director literally told her he'd only hire her if she agrees to not be an employee during her maternity leave so that he doesn't have to pay all the extra insurance and tax fees. She got hired as a contractor, and then switched to FT employee after she came back from maternity.

This stuff sucks. It's a steep price to pay. And men rarely get paternity leave.

Sigh... Topic for another thread I suppose.

[MrMan1983]

On 3/22/2024 at 7:06 PM, mylolita said:

Apologies @yogacat! 
 

🤣🥂 

 

I am so wind bagging here it’s shameful but just another thought! 
 

I feel like, people these days are after “perfection!” They want it all. Where is it? That’s why they’re perpetually single. It doesn’t exist! 
 

They want someone with a great career. With a healthy lifestyle. Educated. Family orientated. But still has a life with friends! Has their own unique interesting hobbies, but also will spend plenty of time with them. Has the same goals, morals and opinions as them. Is in the same social circles or social class for here in England. They want someone masculine, but not too masculine. Feminine, but woah! Not too feminine! They want talents and intellectual conversation. A 6 pack maybe. Over 6 foot tall. No kids from a previous marriage. No talking of ex girlfriends but also no bad mouthing of ex girlfriends.

 

The lists go on.

 

And then when these people do finally settle down, they expect this perfect marriage as well, that doesn’t exist, and the towel is thrown in very fast. 
 

People don’t know what they want, basically, what really compliments them or what is truly good for them. We have a pandemic of not knowing ourselves, we’re kind of brainwashed into thinking there is this polite; good, lovely and wholesome thing we should all want and think. We’re all individuals who need very individual partners and we should be allowed to embrace that. 
 

No one is perfect. 
 

I think my generation need to get better with their time, the time of others, know thyself as they say, and go out and get what you want with purpose and laser focus. We are being told we have endless time to date and dine and career and all of this. Most of us only have about 85 years. My generation needs to put this into perspective that life is short, and this dallying for perfection is getting them the exact opposite! 
 

The grass isn’t always greener!

 

x

Can really resonate with this post, and that's from both sides. I've been guilty of being too picky to a point where I annoy myself for not being interested in certain people who have been keen on me, then boots often been on the other foot too so you end up in this situation where too many people are after some fairytale match made in heaven which results in a lot of people stuck single.