We are a great match, but she is unsure about having kids (37m, 30f)

[boltnrun]

2 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

Thank you for the input, reading about perspective of other people with first hand experience is always helpful. ❤️

I hope so too, and it is a thing I will have to think carefully about if she does land in the "yes" camp. But currently I'm boxing that up for discussion later if she lands on "yes", because it doesnt serve me much good to imagine a future scenario that hasnt happened yet and might never happen either.

Yep, my mother always advised me not to "borrow trouble". It's unhelpful.

[Sam1986]

3 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Yep, my mother always advised me not to "borrow trouble". It's unhelpful.

Definitely some good advice.
I guess I've been fortunate to have a calm and (very) rational persona, though I admit that it's gotten me in trouble before with certain exes that took my calm demeanour as "evidence that I have no feelings". 😅

I just don't see the point in worrying about things that aren't a reality right now, especially when I've got more than enough other things to worry about in my life at the moment (work mostly, got a huge deadline this week before Christmas).

[Batya33]

Please don’t audition by living together. Especially if you want kids. Compatibility while living together with kids is a whole other thing. Also no don’t test her with kids who are not hers. So often apples and oranges. I don’t like all kids. I don’t connect with all kids or adults. And I love being a mom in general even not on specific days (like last night ). It’s extremely individual. What is not individual IMO is if you don’t want to be a parent with all your heart and soul 100% and for the best interests of a child not just because “I wanna be a mom” DON’T have a kid. The end. 
she doesn’t want you back that badly. She only wants to commit if you pass her living together audition. You’d love to live with her even though she’s undecided ?About you and kids ? 
 

she misses you and is feeling a bit desperate. It’s not coming from the right place. 

[catfeeder]

29 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

...she is [wishing] herself to want the same thing as I do, and sometimes she does and sometimes she doesn't. We have a very healthy and open communication style in general (which is part of the reason I think we are otherwise a near perfect match) where we never accuse or get angry and just speak our minds, and I quite enjoy speaking to a person that can handle serious topics in a completely transparent way with none of the toxic miscommunication that often tends to happen.

Yes, she doesn't sound afraid to give you the gritty reality of her doubts and fears, which is exactly where healthy communication needs to go. Exploring reality without imposing barriers of offenses taken or defenses presumed allows couples to walk 'through' real pros and cons and fears and desires. Think of it as brainstorming without constraints.

Being 'real' also takes t.i.me. That's what I'd hoped to convey in my earlier posts, because it struck me as far too premature to shut down a potential 'right' relationship based on one initial reaction to something that not everyone has clarity about at her age.

This is a big commitment that requires enough exploration to determine--and maybe she just never did that before. At her age I had no idea where I stood on children. I'd never felt challenged to decide. I'd been the most talented and sought after babysitter in my whole county throughout my teens for large families and 'troubled' children. This encouragement made me feel 'gifted' in terms of motherhood potential, even while these were all short sprints that never required marathon investments.

I'm not marathon material. This means that one doesn't need to be a child 'hater' in order to not be parent material. This is an important distinction.

Wishing you both all the best. No matter how long all of this takes to hash through, I believe that it's the most important investment you can make. Otherwise, you'll always carry doubts about your attention to THIS process with THIS person. Such doubts can impact your future relationships, so isn't it worth the investment NOW?

Head high.

[LotusBlack]

7 hours ago, Sam1986 said:

So, an update here:

We parted goodbye some weeks ago, and honestly I was kind of ok with that (it sucks, but on the other hand it is what it is). Then she called me on Saturday, saying that she had thought a lot over the last weeks and that she didn't want to lose me. Initially she said something along the lines of "I've been thinking about kids and moving in together, and I'm getting warmed up to having kids and want us to move in together to see how compatible we are", before specifying (I pushed her on this) that she wanted to move in together and see if things went well, but that she hadn't made up a clear mind yet about kids (as it sounded initially). She did however mention that she was giving the issue some thought every day, because she knows that I am currently dating around again, and she said she feels like it would be the biggest mistake of her life to lose me over this one issue.

We had a long talk in person some hours later, and after pushing her on the issue it got clear that the latter interpretation I got from out phone call was the correct one. She is still undecided, and while she wants kids on one hand in some situations (seeing how friends get happy, and seeing the nice things about having a family together), she occasionally gets reluctant (when she for instance sees a kid behaving badly and throwing tantrums in public). Otherwise she still can't pinpoint why she is hesitant, but has admitted that she is afraid of big commitments like these, but equally worried about the big commitment that it means to pass on the opportunity to be with me. We did explore those worries a bit, and it does sound like some fear of committing is at the core of it here. She has one hand a wish for what her possible child will be named one day (most people who are in the clear "no" camp don't even entertain that thought), and likes the idea of bringing the family for hiking etc. in the forest (she is very into hiking trips). Then again, she mentioned being afraid of the commitment and that she was worried that "her life would be over", even though she said she realizes that it obviously won't be and that it sounded ridiculous when she said it out loud. She also mentioned being worried that I might leave her at some point, which I did my best to reassure that I have no current intentions of doing, as she is truly the best match I could ever hope to have with someone.

I stood my ground on the issue quite fiercely here, and told her in no unclear terms that if she wants to be with me she will have to accept the "the whole package", that is both being with me, but also moving in together and that kids are a non-negotiable part of my future if we are to pursue anything further (like moving in together). Hence, I told her that while I would be thrilled to move in with her, this depends on her accepting that we kids are in the cards some years down the road (obviously assuming we are otherwise compatible, as I don't want to have children with anyone just for the sake of having children).

We agreed that she would think it over during Christmas, and we'd have one last talk after New Year's Eve after she gave my "ultimatum" some thought.

Maybe I'm making a mistake here (or maybe I'm not), but I thought I'd post it just in case. On one hand I feel that I am very strict about this part being non-negotiable, but on the other hand I also feel that it really is and that I can't accept to settle for a "maybe I'll change my mind in the future" kind of deal (which is why I stood my ground here). Then there's also the question of whether or not I should take the leap myself and go for her if she does land on the "yes" side of things. She won't be nearly as thrilled as I am over it since it took an ultimatum to land on that decision, but on the other hand, are both parties ever truly equally into all things? I am willing to compromise on this and take up more than my lion's share of parenting if that's what it takes. Even though she has mentioned worrying about not being a great mother before, I honestly have no doubts that she would make both a great mother and a great wife in the future, as she is an extremely likeable person with nowhere near the level of baggage that my former exes have had (even if she herself believes otherwise). To me she sounds more worried than truly against the idea itself, and if she does land on the "yes" side of things.

These are of course all things that I will have to think further about once I get my answer after New Year's Eve, but meanwhile do feel free to share your thoughts on the issue if you have any. 🙂

Sounds to me like her motivation for considering kids is solely based on not losing you. In my opinion, that is not a good enough reason to have kids. I wanted kids desperately and worked with kids as an au pair and pre-school teacher. I am significantly younger than my sister who had children young, so I spent my entire teenage years and young adulthood babysitting and, at times, helping raise kids, so I am well aware of what is involved. But, even with all that experience behind me, and all that desire for a child, I find it significantly challenging to raise my toddler. I had him at 33 and am now 37. I struggle with DMS (depleted mothers syndrome), which is an incredibly serious condition where the ‘demands on the mother (or primary carer) increase, and her resources decrease. As a result of this imbalance, the mother’s emotional sensitivity to both internal, and external triggers becomes heightened.’ (https://therapybeyondthecouch.com/depleted-mother-syndrome-dms-what-it-is-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/)

This can lead to a number of serious results, such as the carer becoming uncharacteristically aggressive towards the child, depressed, thoughts of self-harm, feelings of helplessness and hopelessness, etc. A parent has to really really be committed to a child and have the desire to have that child to be able to overcome (and to want to overcome) the challenge that is raising children and the fact that, for a significant period of time, a parent (usually the mother or primary carer) has pretty much zero autonomy and does not belong to themselves. It is not a sacrifice but a choice. Like if you love both vanilla and chocolate ice cream and have to choose one flavour or the other - say you choose chocolate, you don’t sit there thinking how you had to sacrifice the vanilla in order to eat the chocolate. No, you think that you simply chose the chocolate because that is what you wanted more. Having children is the same. You might give some things up to have them but it is not a sacrifice it is a choice between two things and you chose the one you wanted more. When you have a child out of fear of sacrificing something else that you want more, then that is not a good enough foundation upon which one should build their family and choose parenthood. All the challenges become too challenging and resentment builds up and the child suffers the consequences.

I very much do not agree with the notion that she cannot pin point why she doesn’t want children. She has, several times. It doesn’t have to be because of some trauma and fear that is holding her back; it can simply be because one lacks the desire to dedicate their life to and prioritise a child over their own life. There is nothing wrong with wanting to prioritise ones self over a child when that person then chooses not to have a child. The problem is when one has a child when they still wish to prioritise their own life first. 

Nothing but the fiercest desire to be a parent should drive a person to be a parent. I’d think many times over about what you’re potentially considering here.

[Batya33]

Yes. And mine is 14 and loss of autonomy still very much there.  And hard! Totally agree with desire thing. And yes it’s not a sacrifice when you truly want it. It’s good she’s being real with you. It’s fine if she doesn’t know the root cause. Someday if she does she may then resolve it and want to parent a child for the right reasons. At your age and stage and perspective I think that’s way too big a risk. Unless you we’re to wake up and realize you want her much more than you want kids. That’s not gonna happen is it?