We are a great match, but she is unsure about having kids (37m, 30f)

[catfeeder]

10 hours ago, boltnrun said:

The problem with that approach is she would still have to be pregnant, give birth and take time away from work to give birth and recover. Many of the woman I know who have chosen not to have children cite those things as the reasons why they don't want them. My one friend poetically said "I ain't shoving a kid out my vag". Not to mention the 18-20 year commitment to raising the children. And parents can't just up and go on a long business trip, vacation, sabbatical, etc. without having to either take the child along and work around their needs or find trustworthy long term child care.

I mean, I just loaded mine in the car or airplane and took them with. But I did give up on an exciting dream career opportunity because it would have meant being away two to three weeks out of every month and as a mother I couldn't do that. And I wanted kids. 

I hear, and that’s why I would have explored exactly what this woman’s concerns were about, and over more time than a single conversation.

I raise this because at this woman’s age I didn’t even fully understand all of my concerns. Fortunately, I had patient and caring people who helped me resolve one issue, then another would surface. I was able to narrow down and clarify my own position, which certainly served my partner’s best interests.

 I didn’t read OP’s decision as his issue, but rather his lack of clarity about it. And so, the one thing I can think of to address that would be to invest the work to gain the clarity. Whether this would change the outcome is an unknown, but it would address any regrets about not resolving his own uncertainty.

 

[Sam1986]

14 hours ago, Truth05 said:

I think she has her valid reasons for not wanting kids. A woman does not need to have a career to not want a child, it's a choice.

That's the thing, as catfeeder pointed out, her reasons are just ones that I extrapolated, as she hasn't been able to answer directly what her main reservations against kids are. The most concrete answer I've gotten is that "she's not sure she would be a good mother" and that "she doesn't know what she wants in the future" (this was on the topic of future in general, not just kids).

20 hours ago, catfeeder said:

I have no children so I can appreciate her ambivalence. Do you feel particularly under the gun to find your forever partner and start a family right away? If so, you chose the right thing. If not, I would have, at the very least, explored more about her concerns and how you both might feel about switching up traditional roles where you would take on the role as primary caregiver, and let these ideas raise more questions over time. Like what could happen if something happened to render you unable to do that.

No, I'm not dead set on having them right away. What my main concern is, is the ambivalence. I am perfectly willing to wait 4-5 years as long as I know that it's in the cards, if she wants to pursue a career in the meantime (which I don't blame her for). I am a little more on the fence about being the primary caregiver, though having entertained the thought for a few months, I'm starting to come more to terms with it than I was before.

8 hours ago, catfeeder said:

I hear, and that’s why I would have explored exactly what this woman’s concerns were about, and over more time than a single conversation.

I raise this because at this woman’s age I didn’t even fully understand all of my concerns. Fortunately, I had patient and caring people who helped me resolve one issue, then another would surface. I was able to narrow down and clarify my own position, which certainly served my partner’s best interests.

Thank you for the input on this. I might try to have another chat, but at the moment I'm not sure if it would cause more harm than good. I went on a date with another girl last Sunday and Tuesday, and on one hand feel that I should explore other avenues right now. That being said, while this girl I went to dates on over the last week seems rather nice, the chemistry (albeit only after two dates) is nothing close to the other one. It's a real headache for sure, but then again, I'm not as naive as I was in my twenties where I would hang onto hope without trying to move on.
 

On 11/22/2023 at 3:43 PM, Andrina said:

Hard to go cold turkey in no longer communicating when there were no negative feelings

Yes that is perhaps the hardest part here. There is no animosity on either side, and we both feel super lucky to have met each other. Except for this one (albeit big) issue.

[Sam1986]

Thanks for all replies here so far, even though I couldn't reply to everyone.
It's very much appreciated, as I wouldn't have gone to such lengths to post it unless it mattered so much (which it obviously does).

At the moment I'm a bit torn on whether I should have a final talk to explore her reasons and whether the role of primary caregiver is up for discussion, but currently I'm probably leaning more towards just exploring other options. Will have a good, hard think about this over the weekend. 🙂

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Sam1986 said:

That's the thing, as catfeeder pointed out, her reasons are just ones that I extrapolated, as she hasn't been able to answer directly what her main reservations against kids are. The most concrete answer I've gotten is that "she's not sure she would be a good mother" and that "she doesn't know what she wants in the future" (this was on the topic of future in general, not just kids).

No, I'm not dead set on having them right away. What my main concern is, is the ambivalence. I am perfectly willing to wait 4-5 years as long as I know that it's in the cards, if she wants to pursue a career in the meantime (which I don't blame her for). I am a little more on the fence about being the primary caregiver, though having entertained the thought for a few months, I'm starting to come more to terms with it than I was before.

Thank you for the input on this. I might try to have another chat, but at the moment I'm not sure if it would cause more harm than good. I went on a date with another girl last Sunday and Tuesday, and on one hand feel that I should explore other avenues right now. That being said, while this girl I went to dates on over the last week seems rather nice, the chemistry (albeit only after two dates) is nothing close to the other one. It's a real headache for sure, but then again, I'm not as naive as I was in my twenties where I would hang onto hope without trying to move on.
 

Yes that is perhaps the hardest part here. There is no animosity on either side, and we both feel super lucky to have met each other. Except for this one (albeit big) issue.

For sure if she said concretely -I want to start trying in -even 4 -years and there was a concrete reason why -I mean -ok - still a risk but with a concrete reason and a strong desire to be a mother albeit in the future -ok.  But she is ambivalent.  And to me anything less than 110% into it is a no go.  Just like you're not 100% into deciding to be a full time dad.  It's such a hard hard job.  I did it as full time mom for 7.5 years.  My husband always has been over the moon about having kids AND never wanted to be a full time dad at home.  He's an awesome parent - it's -incredible to watch. 

I didn't say awesome "dad" because who cares if it's the dad or mom. I don't know of anyone who is sure they're going to be a good parent -there is no manual and you cannot predict for example - how you'll bond with this new person, whether that person will have a disability or special needs, how you will react to the myriad of situations that parents face daily even with "easy" kids.  Fortunately I had a ton of realistic expectations by the time I gave birth at 42 also because my first career was in teaching young children - and I'd helped with my nieces and nephew.  I was ready to give up all the "freedom" and even though son is 14 I still give up a lot and sacrifice a lot of my time, my me time, my sleep, my health -to be his Annoying Mom (he says annoying is part of my job, he's cool with it). 

I cannot imagine being as happy as I am -much of the time - being a parent unless I'd 110% wanted it.  I know of parents -especially dads -who weren't totally sure then had a child and fell in love with the child, etc -but -man -what a risk! Especially for a woman who will become a mom by getting pregnant and carrying a baby full term.  And I had a relatively easy pregnancy physically just so so stressful and hard emotionally -us old ladies are high risk/geriatric after age 35 -as your GF will be if indeed she is "ready" in five years.  

There are many women in your age range who want to be moms and will be a wonderful team with you as you form a family.  We had a casual thanksgiving at home yesterday and talked about what we were thankful for  -just the 3 of us -and the first thing my son said was he was thankful for his dad, then his mom -and then I think his late grandparents and living grandmother.  He knows the feeling is mutual -if he didn't know that 99% of the time (yes he wavers after he's acted like a jerk and checks to see if we still love him lol) - how would that be fair to him?

Children deserve to feel wanted by their parents and to hear over and over again how much they were wanted - my son loves our whole story about deciding to get pregnant, have a baby, get married - how overjoyed I was during the whole journey.  For parents who have the choice to be parents (meaning of course there are accidents!) - why would you make that choice without putting the best interests of the child first -the child deserves to know he/she was and is wanted all the way. IMO.

[Andrina]

31 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

"she doesn't know what she wants in the future" (this was on the topic of future in general, not just kids).

Yeah, it's very hard to be with someone like this, even without the topic of children. I dated a man for a year and it was frustrating having conversations with him, because when I'd just try to find out more about him and ask something like, "Do you have any bucket list destinations for travel?" His answer for that and anything else pertaining to the future was, "I can't even think beyond next Friday."

Difficult to get any answers, if you want to know if the person wants to stay local forever, or would consider moving. If you envision your retirement years similarly, and those sorts of life talks.

I'm a huge planner so all that was frustrating to me and one amongst other reasons he and I didn't work out.

Life certainly comes with a lot of challenges. Good luck to you.

[Kwothe28]

26 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

At the moment I'm a bit torn on whether I should have a final talk to explore her reasons and whether the role of primary caregiver is up for discussion

You already broke up. I dont think its neccessary to explore the reasons after you already went separate ways. You are maybe hoping she will change her mind now after she lost you. But the truth is, her role as a mother doesnt have nothing to do with you. She either wants it or not. She can love you and still dont want kids. And again, its not good for one or other to expect the other perspective to change. Again, kids are non- negotiable. Its kind of a big, maybe even the biggest life choice. Along with stuff like your job or who to marry. 

[boltnrun]

One of my friends is married to a man who told her unequivocally (before they got engaged) that he would not, under any circumstances, have any more children (he already had two).  In fact, he had a vasectomy to ensure he would never impregnate anyone ever again.  This woman didn't have any children of her own, so she would have been essentially his kids' dad's wife (not necessarily stepmother).  She agreed to this in order to marry him.  Well, as the years went on she was more and more wistful about children.  I mean, I was in about the worst possible situation for a pregnant woman at one point (pregnant, abandoned by the baby's father, financially unstable and critically ill), and she told me she envied me!  Simply because I was pregnant and she never would be. She never did have kids.  I'm not sure if she thought her husband would change his mind but he never did.  Now she's too old to have children (60s).

I don't know how productive it would be to ask her to express exactly why she doesn't want kids.  She may not even know the exact reason.  Could she change her mind in the future?  Sure, but how long are you willing to wait in the hopes she changes her mind (because of "chemistry")?   And could you make peace with it if she never does change her mind?  Can you be OK with never becoming a father? And would "chemistry" be enough to make up for not having children?

[Sam1986]

So, an update here:

I took @catfeeder's advice here, and attempted to explore one final time what her main concerns were, both on Sunday and again yesterday.

She still isn't exactly sure if she can pinpoint the exact reason, but she gave me several reasons that all seem to influence her position.

1. She has never seen herself in the light of being a mother, and feels like she should have this feeling if she is ever to become one.
2. She compares herself to friends who have become pregnant, that apparently always had this feeling/desire of becoming a mother, and that this desire apparently manifested in her friends into a feeling of "I want to have kids with this person". She doesnt have that feeling even though she could see herself marrying me one day, and takes this lack of said feeling as a sign that she shouldnt become a mother.
3. She is unsure whether she would be a good mother.
4. She is afraid of making such a big commitment in her life, and her last relationship made her feel trapped while the breakup left her more happy as she felt "free" again (she is quite indecisive on a lot of things, and also very spontaneous as a person. This spontaneity is a trait that I quite like in her, but I see how this might complicate things if she doesnt like to plan ahead and feels like this is a major stepping stone).
5. She is apparently at risk of some auto-immune disease, that might trigger in a gland in her throat when/if she becomes pregnant, and which might have her on some sort of medication for the rest of her life if it triggers.

Most likely these factors all tie together, since she can't pinpoint one exact defining reason. I did however gather that she is leaning somewhat heavily in the "no" camp, and that her "maybe" is more due to "I lean no, but obviously I might change my mind" (which I guess is true of everyone).
 

 

I will admit that I made a sin here in letting her sleep over last night (with all that it encompasses), but that was voluntary from both of us. And in fact, I feel somewhat relieved now. I explored these reasons to the best of my ability, and while the outcome is not one that I desired, I feel like I can close this chapter of my life now. We said our long good byes, and while it reeeeaally sucks to lose such a fantastic person in my life, it was preferable to the "semi-breakup" we had before since we now broke up in a clean way.

And as @Batya33mentioned in regards to keeping a (time limited) door open, my final words were that she should reach out to me if she did change her mind (ideally sooner rather than later), but also knowing fully well that I will be not be waiting and instead be moving on from here. If I become pleasantly surprised in a few months or a year down the road, great. And if not, then I will not have waited in vain in the meantime.


Thank you all for the input here, especially @catfeederon your suggestion that I explore it a bit more before formally calling it quits. It certainly has helped me lay a foundation to close these doors for good now, and not worry about any potential "what ifs" down the line due to us just "fading out" like has happened over the last month. This person was definitely one worth putting in the extra effort for, even if that effort means closing doors for good. She means the world to me, and if we're not to meant be, I am happy that we said our proper good byes and went our separate ways on a good note. 😀

[LotusBlack]

Hard as it was, I strongly feel you made the right decision. I think she pinpointed very well why she doesn’t want kids and it was a combination of factors that, separately, are all significant to her. Together, it was enough to be a dealbreaker. She has done her would-have-been future children a very important service by not having them because she likely would have resented motherhood.

I suggest you hold off dating for a while so you can heal from the loss of the relationship. You’ll know when you’re ready again to date.

Sorry this happened to you. You showed a lot of strength and maturity here, and honoured your feelings. Good luck moving forward in your life.

[Sam1986]

21 hours ago, LotusBlack said:

Hard as it was, I strongly feel you made the right decision. I think she pinpointed very well why she doesn’t want kids and it was a combination of factors that, separately, are all significant to her. Together, it was enough to be a dealbreaker. She has done her would-have-been future children a very important service by not having them because she likely would have resented motherhood.

I suggest you hold off dating for a while so you can heal from the loss of the relationship. You’ll know when you’re ready again to date.

Sorry this happened to you. You showed a lot of strength and maturity here, and honoured your feelings. Good luck moving forward in your life.

Thank you for the kind words.

Regarding dating others, I feel like I am ready for that already.
The reason for that is that we have talked about this issue since this summer, and I've been vocal that if I can't get a more concise answer, that I'd have to start dating other people again.
We did of course postpone any breakup because neither of us wanted to leave an otherwise fantastic match (except for the issue about children), but I guess it made me able to mentally prepare for this in advance.
Unlike other losses I've had in the past, this came as no shocking surprise, and both of us have had nothing but good experiences while it lasted. So I guess that this makes it easier in a way to move on. I feel like the hardest part here is the feeling of being incredibly unlucky in that there appeared one very unfortunate dealbreaker in an otherwise very good relationship.

[boltnrun]

I think you said before you tried dating others but none of them could compare to the "chemistry" you felt with your ex. Do you feel now that you know it's over for good you'll be in a better headspace to date and to stop comparing every woman to her?

[LotusBlack]

1 hour ago, Sam1986 said:

Regarding dating others, I feel like I am ready for that already.

I think perhaps in theory you feel ready, but emotionally you are still unavailable. The fact you are still emotionally invested enough to go so far as to seek advice (which is often generally a wise thing to do when consultation with one’s self does not offer the complete clarity one needs) indicates that although you may be resigned to things being over with your ex and you genuinely harbour the desire to want to move on with someone else, that does not mean you’re ready to. 

In your shoes, I would give myself some space for my feelings to settle into the new reality/situation for a couple of months and then reassess. Whilst you still feel the relationship was perfect bar for the dealbreaker, subconsciously, you’re not going to afford much space emotionally for other potential relationships/partners.

But, as with all things, staying true to yourself and following your instincts is always the best course of action. I have a feeling that when the truly right woman for you comes along, you’re going to feel how wrong current ex is in comparison and not just regarding the dealbreaker issue, but everything important in a relationship, too. Nothing quite like the right person to make all the wrong people feel extremely wrong. You’ll miss her, though, if you steamroll over your feelings and force yourself to move on when you’re not quite ready to.

[Sam1986]

So, an update here:

We parted goodbye some weeks ago, and honestly I was kind of ok with that (it sucks, but on the other hand it is what it is). Then she called me on Saturday, saying that she had thought a lot over the last weeks and that she didn't want to lose me. Initially she said something along the lines of "I've been thinking about kids and moving in together, and I'm getting warmed up to having kids and want us to move in together to see how compatible we are", before specifying (I pushed her on this) that she wanted to move in together and see if things went well, but that she hadn't made up a clear mind yet about kids (as it sounded initially). She did however mention that she was giving the issue some thought every day, because she knows that I am currently dating around again, and she said she feels like it would be the biggest mistake of her life to lose me over this one issue.

We had a long talk in person some hours later, and after pushing her on the issue it got clear that the latter interpretation I got from out phone call was the correct one. She is still undecided, and while she wants kids on one hand in some situations (seeing how friends get happy, and seeing the nice things about having a family together), she occasionally gets reluctant (when she for instance sees a kid behaving badly and throwing tantrums in public). Otherwise she still can't pinpoint why she is hesitant, but has admitted that she is afraid of big commitments like these, but equally worried about the big commitment that it means to pass on the opportunity to be with me. We did explore those worries a bit, and it does sound like some fear of committing is at the core of it here. She has one hand a wish for what her possible child will be named one day (most people who are in the clear "no" camp don't even entertain that thought), and likes the idea of bringing the family for hiking etc. in the forest (she is very into hiking trips). Then again, she mentioned being afraid of the commitment and that she was worried that "her life would be over", even though she said she realizes that it obviously won't be and that it sounded ridiculous when she said it out loud. She also mentioned being worried that I might leave her at some point, which I did my best to reassure that I have no current intentions of doing, as she is truly the best match I could ever hope to have with someone.

I stood my ground on the issue quite fiercely here, and told her in no unclear terms that if she wants to be with me she will have to accept the "the whole package", that is both being with me, but also moving in together and that kids are a non-negotiable part of my future if we are to pursue anything further (like moving in together). Hence, I told her that while I would be thrilled to move in with her, this depends on her accepting that we kids are in the cards some years down the road (obviously assuming we are otherwise compatible, as I don't want to have children with anyone just for the sake of having children).

We agreed that she would think it over during Christmas, and we'd have one last talk after New Year's Eve after she gave my "ultimatum" some thought.

Maybe I'm making a mistake here (or maybe I'm not), but I thought I'd post it just in case. On one hand I feel that I am very strict about this part being non-negotiable, but on the other hand I also feel that it really is and that I can't accept to settle for a "maybe I'll change my mind in the future" kind of deal (which is why I stood my ground here). Then there's also the question of whether or not I should take the leap myself and go for her if she does land on the "yes" side of things. She won't be nearly as thrilled as I am over it since it took an ultimatum to land on that decision, but on the other hand, are both parties ever truly equally into all things? I am willing to compromise on this and take up more than my lion's share of parenting if that's what it takes. Even though she has mentioned worrying about not being a great mother before, I honestly have no doubts that she would make both a great mother and a great wife in the future, as she is an extremely likeable person with nowhere near the level of baggage that my former exes have had (even if she herself believes otherwise). To me she sounds more worried than truly against the idea itself, and if she does land on the "yes" side of things.

These are of course all things that I will have to think further about once I get my answer after New Year's Eve, but meanwhile do feel free to share your thoughts on the issue if you have any. 🙂

[boltnrun]

Being "likeable" and free of "baggage" doesn't mean someone would be a great parent, particularly when they're hesitant or unsure. I have close friends and family members who are VERY likeable and they do not want children. Period. I also know "likeable" people who are parents but are not dedicated or enthusiastic. One former friend is attractive and fun to be around but when her child annoyed her she would tell him "you're a little sh*t just like your dad." Not cool. 

I do think your approach is a good one as far as telling her that kids are non-negotiable. However, if you choose to remain in the relationship even if she says "no kids" do NOT do it in the hopes she'll change her mind. Accept her decision as final. Also you'll need to genuinely accept you will never be a father. 

[Sam1986]

18 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Being "likeable" and free of "baggage" doesn't mean someone would be a great parent, particularly when they're hesitant or unsure. I have close friends and family members who are VERY likeable and they do not want children. Period. I also know "likeable" people who are parents but are not dedicated or enthusiastic. One former friend is attractive and fun to be around but when her child annoyed her she would tell him "you're a little sh*t just like your dad." Not cool. 

I do think your approach is a good one as far as telling her that kids are non-negotiable. However, if you choose to remain in the relationship even if she says "no kids" do NOT do it in the hopes she'll change her mind. Accept her decision as final. Also you'll need to genuinely accept you will never be a father. 

Thank you for your reply.

I will not go for a relationship with her unless she gets into the "yes" camp, that's a non-negotiable for me and it's for the exact reason you mention - I do not want to get into a relationship and hope that she changes her mind. Maybe my younger self would accept something like that, but one of the nice things about being in my late 30s is that I won't accept things that I would earlier in life and which aren't good for me. 🙂

I do sort of accept that I might never be a father (can anyone truly guarantee such an outcome for themselves? I think not), but I do want to have given it my best effort on the way. Which is why I was not yielding to her and said that I needed a clear "yes" if we were to progress. Otherwise I will have to look elsewhere, and she knows that I will do so (I have been dating other people after all, even if unsuccessfully, as I've told her that I am not waiting around for her to make up her mind).

Your first point is interesting. If she does land in the "yes" camp, I'll try to see how she behaves around other children that discomfort her (the ones throwing tantrums) to see how she handles that. That being said, I've never heard or seen her be mean to anyone, so it would sort of surprise me to hear such words coming from her.

[boltnrun]

I don't necessarily think she would speak cruelly to her own children. The example I gave was just to illustrate that "likeable" and "nice" doesn't necessarily translate to "good parent". My one friend is very kind, likeable and nice but she cannot stand children. Other friends are equally likeable and nice but just have no interest in being parents. 

I'm a parent and I don't enjoy seeing unruly, out of control children and parents who allow that behavior or worse, excuse it by shrugging and saying "Well, that's how kids are". No, they aren't unless they're allowed to be.

I also hope she doesn't fall into the trap of reluctantly giving birth just to "keep" you and then regretting it afterward. There are no return policies for children.

Either way, I feel you'll find the right woman for you whether it's her or someone else.

[Sam1986]

6 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I also hope she doesn't fall into the trap of reluctantly giving birth just to "keep" you and then regretting it afterward. There are no return policies for children.

Either way, I feel you'll find the right woman for you whether it's her or someone else.

Thank you for the feedback and kind words. This is the part that might bother me if she does land in the "yes" camp. But since I have no answer yet anyway, I'll handle that one later after I get my final answer. Maybe she lands on a "no" for all I know. 

And yes, I agree with your observation on kids throwing tantrums in public. You can usually tell that the parents are at fault, and the worst behaving kids are usually those whose parent stand there and act indifferent. I remember when I went to Japan (twice) and never once did I see a kid act out in public. In fact, they stood still in line like everyone else, despite it being the hot summer season and where I can imagine it must have been hard for those children to stand still. However, it didn't take many weeks until I saw some unruly children at the airport flying home, and those were not Japanese so to speak. Really says a lot about the role of parenting and the importance of setting clear boundaries early.

[MissCanuck]

So, nothing has actually changed. 

She doesn't need to rattle off a laundry list of reasons why she is unsure on kids. It's enough for her to say she is not sure without having to justify it 10 different ways. Nobody ever really asks those who want kids to pinpoint why, and the same should be true of those who aren't keen on the idea. Sure, a general notion is fine but it's rather silly that she is presenting all these reasons as though she is arguing her case to a judge and jury. I am not suggesting you are asking that of her, but she shouldn't feel the need to make her case for not being that into the idea of babies. Some of us just aren't into it. 

I maintain my earlier stance that this is unlikely to work, in the end. And yes, I am speaking as a woman who was also quite unsure earlier in life (in my late 20s into my mid-30s) about kids, and slowly realized that I geuinely had no interest in being a mother. I am glad today that I didn't go that route, and listened to what the hesitation in my gut was trying to tell me. I know now I would not have been that happy with that life, because it's just not what I wanted for myself.  This particular woman might truly have a change of heart, but if I were placing odds on this, I would say you will be in exactly the same place a couple years from now with her still not excited about being a mom. 

Tread cautiously here if your heart is set on becoming a father. I don't see that happening with her. 

 

[Sam1986]

9 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

So, nothing has actually changed. 

Tread cautiously here if your heart is set on becoming a father. I don't see that happening with her. 

Indeed, I even brought that up with her and mentioned that nothing had really changed since last time. I think she just really missed me and wanted to be with me again, which I can fully understand as that feeling is mutual. I am a bit fortunate though in that I've developed some strong boundaries over the years, so it's clearly easier for me to transition away from this situation than it is for her (as I didnt reach out and have been dating others, as recently as last week even). Also it being a non-negotiable for me, there is no reason for me to linger when there is only one outcome that is acceptable to me. One of the advantages of age I guess, being less confused and more purposeful than my younger self. 🤷‍♂️

I will tread cautiously. I have no intentions of creating some long soap opera here, as I've been quite adamant all the way here on where I stand. That being said, I cannot be so rigid as not to give her the opportunity to change her mind if she does want to give it a long and hard thought, albeit with a set date so as to avoid dragging it out. But I told her that it will be final if she doesn't change her stance, and she knows this (last time I held the door open for her to change her mind if she ever did, but with no clear end date).

[boltnrun]

I hope she does really think carefully about this as it is a lifelong commitment if she does decide to have a child (or children).

My husband also gave me an ultimatum ("agree to marry me or lose me") and gave me a hard deadline (like, SOON). I didn't want to lose him, but I also didn't understand why I had to decide so quickly (a matter of weeks). I was only 20 years old and didn't feel at all ready to make that kind of decision when I'd been a teenager mere months earlier. I did ultimately agree to marry him (obviously) and we are divorced (shockingly, I know!) Sometimes I think if he'd just given me a few more years it may have worked (say, when I was 23 or 24), but I also understood marriage was vitally important to him so it wasn't really unfair of him to want an answer. But I made the decision under duress, which (I believe) is not a great place to make decisions from. 

[catfeeder]

2 hours ago, MissCanuck said:

She doesn't need to rattle off a laundry list of reasons why she is unsure on kids. It's enough for her to say she is not sure without having to justify it 10 different ways. Nobody ever really asks those who want kids to pinpoint why, and the same should be true of those who aren't keen on the idea. Sure, a general notion is fine but it's rather silly that she is presenting all these reasons as though she is arguing her case to a judge and jury. I am not suggesting you are asking that of her, but she shouldn't feel the need to make her case for not being that into the idea of babies. Some of us just aren't into it.

I always respect your opinions, MC, and I, too, opted not to become a parent. I can only say that discussions with loved ones that included these kinds of laundry lists were exactly what helped me to work through my internal conflicts and gain clarity (finally!) about where I stood on children for myself. So I don't regard this as suspect in the least--it's important stuff, especially given that it's come down to this one single issue that will make-or-break a relationship that's crucially important to both partners.

Sam, I think you're giving yourself and this woman the best possible opportunity for hashing through this issue and learning where you both will land. By voluntarily reaching out to you, your ex acknowledges that she was as invested in you as you were in her, even while she had never felt so pressed before to clarify exactly where she will stand on motherhood prior to this. I went through the same thing. It wasn't until I was forced against a calendar and a choice between surgical teams that I actually invested in working through all my desires, ambitions, thoughts, fears and doubts in order to find my final position.

While I tend to think of 'ultimatum' as a strong word, you are in a much gentler situation because the loss of your relationship was already experienced by you both. This woman has come back to revisit because she has been doing some real work. Encouraging her to find her true position is not exploitive or detrimental, because you're not taking her motherhood choice away from her. You're giving her the opportunity to either decide now OR later, but if she can't do it in the affirmative now, she'll need to make that choice without you later.

Reasonable and valid.

 

 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, Sam1986 said:

 she called me on Saturday, saying  "I've been thinking about kids and moving in together, and I'm getting warmed up to having kids and want us to move in together to see how compatible we are", before specifying (I pushed her on this) that she wanted to move in together and see if things went well, but that she hadn't made up a clear mind yet about kids. 

It's interesting that she contacted you. However she is still undecided about kids. It seems silly to move in together as an experiment especially with a major deal breaker in the way. It seems like she's lonely. 

[Sam1986]

41 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's interesting that she contacted you. However she is still undecided about kids. It seems silly to move in together as an experiment especially with a major deal breaker in the way. It seems like she's lonely. 

Definitely. I have no doubt that she loves me and she knows that I love her (if you can call it "love" after one year, but that's another discussion). But yes, I was kind of perplexed because the first thing she told me (which I cant exactly recite from memory) sounded like she was on board with it, but further exploration showed that she still wanted to "find out" first (by moving in together). That is a no-go for me, because I don't want to get more emotionally attached in case she doesn't change her mind, and because I don't want to waste my own time (I'm 37 after all, not 27).

I can't rule out that she's lonely though, but I'm pretty sure that's not the whole picture. When we've met she confesses that she thinks about me every day and is sad about her loss, almost to the point where I feel like she's having more troubles dealing with this than I do. I'm certainly not "over it", but I feel that I can manage daily without the big hiccups.

 

1 hour ago, catfeeder said:

I always respect your opinions, MC, and I, too, opted not to become a parent. I can only say that discussions with loved ones that included these kinds of laundry lists were exactly what helped me to work through my internal conflicts and gain clarity (finally!) about where I stood on children for myself. So I don't regard this as suspect in the least--it's important stuff, especially given that it's come down to this one single issue that will make-or-break a relationship that's crucially important to both partners.

Sam, I think you're giving yourself and this woman the best possible opportunity for hashing through this issue and learning where you both will land. By voluntarily reaching out to you, your ex acknowledges that she was as invested in you as you were in her, even while she had never felt so pressed before to clarify exactly where she will stand on motherhood prior to this. I went through the same thing. It wasn't until I was forced against a calendar and a choice between surgical teams that I actually invested in working through all my desires, ambitions, thoughts, fears and doubts in order to find my final position.

While I tend to think of 'ultimatum' as a strong word, you are in a much gentler situation because the loss of your relationship was already experienced by you both. This woman has come back to revisit because she has been doing some real work. Encouraging her to find her true position is not exploitive or detrimental, because you're not taking her motherhood choice away from her. You're giving her the opportunity to either decide now OR later, but if she can't do it in the affirmative now, she'll need to make that choice without you later.

Reasonable and valid.

Thank you for the kind words.

Indeed, when we met over the weekend, our conversation and my questions where in no way accusatory, and she didn't perceive them as such either. Since she had contacted me and brought up the issue, my questions were just exploratory to see what her inhibitions were stemming from, and whether or not it would be able for me to facilitate an environment which could reassure her (if applicable).

I very much appreciate that she contacted me though, because she's showing that she's taking this as serious as I am and wants it to work. As she said herself, she is whishing herself to want the same thing as I do, and sometimes she does and sometimes she doesn't. We have a very healthy and open communication style in general (which is part of the reason I think we are otherwise a near perfect match) where we never accuse or get angry and just speak our minds, and I quite enjoy speaking to a person that can handle serious topics in a completely transparent way with none of the toxic miscommunication that often tends to happen.

[boltnrun]

I may have mentioned before, but some friends of mine went through something similar except the man was adamant about NOT having any more kids (he already had two from his first marriage). His girlfriend either had to agree to have no children (she didn't have any) or he would have not proposed and would have ended the relationship. So she agreed to "no children". And although their marriage is a good, solid one she does deeply regret never having children. She was a school teacher so maybe that helped a bit. But she's sad about never being a mother. She may likely feel that marrying him was worth the sacrifice. 

I just hope she doesn't attempt to "punt" by saying you two could live together and she could continue to "think" about whether or not she wants kids and hold off on making a final decision for a few years. 

[Sam1986]

2 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I may have mentioned before, but some friends of mine went through something similar except the man was adamant about NOT having any more kids (he already had two from his first marriage). His girlfriend either had to agree to have no children (she didn't have any) or he would have not proposed and would have ended the relationship. So she agreed to "no children". And although their marriage is a good, solid one she does deeply regret never having children. She was a school teacher so maybe that helped a bit. But she's sad about never being a mother. She may likely feel that marrying him was worth the sacrifice. 

I just hope she doesn't attempt to "punt" by saying you two could live together and she could continue to "think" about whether or not she wants kids and hold off on making a final decision for a few years. 

Thank you for the input, reading about perspective of other people with first hand experience is always helpful. ❤️

I hope so too, and it is a thing I will have to think carefully about if she does land in the "yes" camp. But currently I'm boxing that up for discussion later if she lands on "yes", because it doesnt serve me much good to imagine a future scenario that hasnt happened yet and might never happen either.