What’s next?

[Batya33]

10 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I have to wonder… If perhaps that under values, the brightness of the people who you are encountering, and how perceptive they would be to judge people on things other than how they dressed or looked… But then, again, as I just mentioned, that may be a little bit naïve of me.
 

That’s why I never entered the business world. I just don’t know I could stomach that kind of bias.

To me it's not bias -it's just work.  Part of work is superficial, part of it is who you know not just what you know.  I was painstaking about what I wore to job interviews including my last interview in 2016 when I'd just turned 50. 

Business people can be bright, perceptive, not so bright, not so perceptive.  In forward-facing roles it matters what your first impression was and that includes dressing appropriately, good posture, good presence.  Good hygiene.  Bias? I mean sure I guess so but then everything is bias too.  I think it's really really smart to care about how you present yourself in context.  To consider the environment, who you want to meet, who you will be with, etc.  

You judge people on their appearance all the time -you wrote quite a bit about your lady's appearance and whether it was up to your standards.  For example. 

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I also have this earthy Crunchy side of me that believes my hair was kind of meant to grow long, so why wouldn’t I want it to grow as long as it was meant, as long as it doesn’t get in the way? It’s all natural!

So if you're into all natural stop with the unnatural testing/needy texts -right?

[Whirling D]

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

That's a funeral.  Not a work event.  If you would do it without resentment then for sure -we all do things we don't want to do especially to please our partners -there's a point where it's not ok of course - and at your age you know what that line is, I'm sure.  

Yeah, for sure… I think my line is when I am made to feel that I could look “better” than I do, which is a judgment, and perhaps a bias, and that I would almost be expected to do it to make her feel better.

I guess it’s one thing to volunteer to do something like that for a spouse, but quite different if you are “expected” to do it. That feels qualitatively different to me.

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Part of me thinks it’s a big FU to society… “Since I don’t have anything, I’m going to wear anything I want and keep my hair long, despite your objections…” I think that’s part of it.

Sure -it's fun to rebel.  I do to an extent -I refuse to live in the burbs which is highly unusual where we relocated to, I refuse to do the typical post your life on social media and I refuse to buy into all the "if you support [insert liberal cause] you WILL share and repost".  Um - nope -I'm not buying into the trendy social media garbage and I'll support what I care about -including those causes -in the particular way I see fit and perhaps make real -not silly resharing-contribution. I refused to get all caught up in making Mom Friends and being involved in the PTA and I refused to be that feminist chick who spread her wings and legs and "I'll show them -I am woman/hear me roar/I'll sleep around just like a man!!!"

I've found I gravitate more to people who are into individuals as opposed to into causes to an extent of investing more time in causes than individuals so the whole "I'll show SOCIETY by wearing my hair long" -I mean you do you -totally cool - to me it's more interesting to interact with individuals and show my individual-ness that way.

[rainbowsandroses]

19 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I wonder if they had any of these kinds of conversations in the early days, and if he felt as annoyed by those conversations as I do… 🙂

We were pretty tight and she never once complained to me about it or even mentioned it.  

So it's doubtful she mentioned anything to him. 

She loved him, she accepted him, as is.  Even loved him for it. 

Being his own man, not conforming to societal norms like a few of the stuffy attorneys we worked with. 

She did have a few other issues, like it took him longer than she hoped to commit (a few years). 

But he eventually did and it all paid off as they got married, purchased a beautiful home in Colorado, had a baby and last I spoke with her, are extremely happy! 

 

[Batya33]

28 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

We were pretty tight and she never once complained to me about it or even mentioned it.  

So it's doubtful she mentioned anything to him. 

She loved him, she accepted him, as is.  Even loved him for it. 

Being his own man, not conforming to societal norms like a few of the stuffy attorneys we worked with. 

She did have a few other issues, like it took him longer than she hoped to commit (a few years). 

But he eventually did and it all paid off as they got married, purchased a beautiful home in Colorado, had a baby and last I spoke with her, are extremely happy! 

 

I accept my husband as he is and I would still be accepting him as he is if I asked him to wear X instead of Y to one of my events with a dress code -with him it's actually never come up because he's not biased against corporate type events as some of these posts are or labeling those types as "stuffy" etc but I would know I accept him as he is at the same time that I'd feel well within reason to object if he wanted to wear something not appropriate to a work event.  Different if I told him that generally he had to cut his hair in a certain way to please me generally.

When we first starting dating in the mid 90s he went to a barber shop with his dad for a $6 haircut.  It showed -his hair is -incredible -"wasted on a boy " [lol] but the cut was -ridiculous - kind of a silly bowl cut.  I did say something -not at all demanding -but I believe I commented on the cut because it was unflattering.  And not judging "who he is" because believe me he didn't see his hairstyle/hair cut as "who he is" -but he did have fun going with his dad and I liked that!

So after I mentioned something he asked his best friend at work where he went - on his own.  For the next 20 years he went there - first at a fancy hotel then when that barber got his own place and charged much less -he went there until the guy retired.  He's very particular about his hair.  I believe he still accompanied his dad to the other barber but didn't himself get a cut that day.

I think there's a huge difference between asking your partner to conform to a dress code if he wants to attend a work event or formal event vs. asking your partner to change something fundamental about their appearance -like breast implants, or obtaining six pack abs or shaving off a beard (unless it gives the lady a face rash LOL) to please them generally.  Apples and oranges -and plain apples and oranges -not conformist/stuffy/ fruit cut up in artful shapes by caterers at corporate events.

I am my own person.  And I conform to certain societal norms.  Both things are true.  No need to be either or and the latter doesn't make me stuffy.  My 15 year career moving up in the corporate world and working my tail off and conforming to a grueling schedule means I no longer have to work unless I want to (and I do -but part time), meant I could be a SAHM for 7 years without worrying about finances like if heaven forbid something happened to my husband or his work, meant I got to meet really interesting people all over the country, meant I met my future husband and I helped many people including volunteer -my company sponsored us to do that.  I was able to use my brain, my education, and pay off my grad school loans in 3 years.  

OTOH I know of more than one person who screams from the rooftops how she/he is nonconformist/eschews "society"/bemoans stuffy corporate types - but -when it suits them.  Like on social media, like when it's convenient for them, like because they have a trust fund or financial support from mom and dad. 

I also know of people who choose not to conform for genuine reasons and values and know of people who give and give and give of their time and money to all sorts of liberal and philanthropic causes because they have prestigious corporate careers and use their position and $ to promote good causes, to start or co-start charitable organizations and causes, to open their large homes for fundraising events.  And on and on. Can't we all just get along?

[rainbowsandroses]

10 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I accept my husband as he is and I would still be accepting him as he is if I asked him to wear X instead of Y to one of my events with a dress code 

Good for you, you do you Batya. 

For me and my attorney friend, we would never ask for reasons already explained. 

And again as explained, here in SoCal we don't have dress codes except for formal events and in that case he would already KNOW he needs to wear a tux without me having to tell him.

To each his own.

 

 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Good for you, you do you Batya. 

For me and my attorney friend, we would never ask for reasons already explained. 

To each his own.

 

 

To each his or her own I think you meant lest it sound stuffy and patriarchal ;-).  Of course that person should never ask if he or she doesn't care about the impression it makes -many have the privilege of being able to walk away rather than deign to dress a certain way to please their employer.  I did not (I mean to me it was no biggie -but I didn't have the privilege of simply walking away based on refusal to adhere to a dress code or refusing to ask an SO who wanted to attend to do so).  

[rainbowsandroses]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

To each his or her own I think you meant lest it sound stuffy and patriarchal ;-).  Of course that person should never ask if he or she doesn't care about the impression it makes -many have the privilege of being able to walk away rather than deign to dress a certain way to please their employer.  I did not (I mean to me it was no biggie -but I didn't have the privilege of simply walking away based on refusal to adhere to a dress code or refusing to ask an SO who wanted to attend to do so).  

Please see the edit to my post Bat. 🙂

 

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Please see the edit to my post Bat. 🙂

 

Yes so for sure if someone is going to stay in an area with no dress codes for professional events or any formal events or cocktail parties etc then that part is a nonissue! I have friends in So Cal and for sure they have dress codes but I don't have specific regions of So Cal in mind.  And obviously those people wouldn't ever be traveling to attend professional events elswhere (I did lots of business travel and sometimes the dress codes differed somewhat baed on location). 

For the OP he already has agreed he would unhappily conform because on the other hand -he wants to show up for her, he wants to be supportive, he wants to get to know her in her professional environment which is all so good.  I'm baffled as to why anyone would fault her for wanting her plus one to dress appropriately or tie his hair back because to me that's just plain ole common sense.  I wasn't thrilled to fly all over the country all the time to attend my husband's professional events but -whatever -I did it -for the same reasons the OP would.  

[rainbowsandroses]

@Whirling D I am wondering if this hair situation for her is more of a personal preference at company events OR is wearing your hair down against company policy or something? 

It sounds like a personal preference that you wear your hair differently (more to HER liking) which is different from her requiring you to adhere to some arbitrary company policy or dress code.

Can you clarify? 

 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

. Part of me thinks it’s a big FU to society… “Since I don’t have anything, I’m going to wear anything I want and keep my hair long, despite your objections…” I think that’s part of it. 

Do you think it's a little bit of FU to her too since you know she is more staid?  Is being a rebel (even a rebel without a cause) no fun if there's no one to rebel against?

As far as your budget, do you think she should be buying you cars while you buy yourself guitars? The yours mine and ours theory doesn't really apply to your situation since you have no joint financial responsibilities.

[Batya33]

16 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

@Whirling D I am wondering if this hair situation for her is more of a personal preference at company events OR is wearing your hair down against company policy or something? 

It sounds like a personal preference that you wear your hair differently (more to HER liking) which is different from her requiring you to adhere to some arbitrary company policy or dress code.

Can you clarify? 

 

For me I think both would be fine because often it's an unwritten policy or understanding based on the person's professional experience and it's what the OP said -he wants her to be comfortable. I knew of many practices related to appearance and clothing that weren't written down or spoken directly -but they may as well have been.  Learning all of that was part of my job.

When I worked in corporate america it wasnt arbitrary -it was based on the impression the company wanted to make. Kind of like requiring uniforms at certain companies is not arbitrary but promotes a professional attitude/consistency etc.

Certainly some work related policies are arbitrary -I just wouldn't paint that with a broad brush just like nonconformist types eschew labels. 

I'm editing for this reason -this is why I had many many friends who were nonconformist -really close friends -I am a huge patron of the arts, I love hanging out with artists of all types and on and on. And I never ever got seriously involved with someone who would have ever labeled me or my colleagues generally as stuffy or conformist in a bad way (individual stuffy types yes for sure) - I only dated men who were proud of what I did, didn't begrudgingly just accept what I did or thought less of me for being passionate about my career which involved private industry, and who wouldn't have wanted to move to rural America and live off the land for longer than a camping trip. 

Friends- for sure - close friends -for sure - partners -no never. I'd never ever want to be judged that way.  My friends and I did sometimes disagree of course but it's not the same as being romantic partners much less starting a family.

Having said that -no judgment of all of OP trying to make this work but it's cringey when this is painted as OP being the superior of the two with his nonconformity/I accept everyone/my hair is meant to be long so put up or shut up [LOL] as opposed to the wow she sold out to be this educated professional physician who is highly regarded apparently and gets invited to professional events. 

Seriously OP just because I could never stomach partnering with someone with your perspective about money/finances/professional work doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a go with this lady.  You should as long as it makes you happy and I love that you want her to be comfortable were you to attend a professional event.  That is very thoughtful and kind and caring of you.

[rainbowsandroses]

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

For me I think both would be fine because often it's an unwritten policy or understanding based on the person's professional experience and it's what the OP said -he wants her to be comfortable. I knew of many practices related to appearance and clothing that weren't written down or spoken directly -but they may as well have been.  Learning all of that was part of my job.

 

Thanks Bat, but my question was for @Whirling D since this is his thread and we are trying to help him navigate through this.  🙂

 

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Thanks Bat, but my question was for @Whirling D since this is his thread and we are trying to help him navigate through this.  🙂

 

It is ???? Sorry I didn't know LOL.  I was letting you know he already answered your inquiry previously.  Sorry if that was too intrusive.  I wouldn't want him to tear his hair out from the frustration caused by my interjection - his hair sounds like his crowning glory and I mean that in a very genuine and kind way not sarcastic.

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

I want to hear that and internalize it, but I’ve been judged by how I look, whether it be my hair, or my “tender” physical appearance, almost my entire life. If that’s almost never been positive, believe me.
 

So when I hear someone who claims to care about me, making comments about perhaps making her feel uncomfortable, at one of her professional environment, that makes me feel a bit triggered and uneasy… Almost a little bit offended. I’m trying hard not to feel that way, but I kind of do.

Part of the way I try to live my life is to try to let go of stuff that is detrimental in that way… I don’t always get it right, but I’m trying. I try to cut back on my thinking that whoever I’m dating is going to be any sort of reflection of me, one way or the other… And that person should be able to present and carry-on in which ever way they feel they want to live their life… And if I don’t like it, I have to either live with it, or find somebody else. I am just hoping in this case, she is not thinking I am rigid enough in my thinking that she would need to go find somebody else… I did try to tell her I would do whatever I can to make her feel comfortable in those settings, whatever that meant to her.

I hear. Whenever I’m forced to dress conservatively or formally I refer to it as “…putting on my costume…” 

I think of it as dressing up for a Halloween party, and that makes it impersonal and even fun. Especially when it’s for someone I love.

I was far from thrilled with some of the wedding party getups I wore a for entire days and nights, including sitting for professionals to do my hair and makeup. Any idea how physically painful high heels can be—for hours and hours? Tripping through grassy landscapes in tight gowns to pose for pictures by lakes and waterfalls?

It’s the stuff some of us are willing to do for love, but it only counts when it’s performed in Academy Award worthy cheerfulness sans the attitude about ME on that day or any day leading up to it.

For clarity, I ask, which is more important, my relationships or my sense of indignation over pretending that I’m a circus actor every now and then?

I nominate for the most important piece of adornment we can possibly ever wear, and that’s a sense of humor. Fueled by generosity and a few Mimosas.

 

[Whirling D]

7 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Thanks Bat, but my question was for @Whirling D since this is his thread and we are trying to help him navigate through this.  🙂

 

Yeah, rainbow, I can only go by the context in which she presented it, which is… The professional environment is quite predictable, and she might feel awkward, arriving at an event with someone who presented in a way that might reflect badly on her and her choices.

That’s my interpretation of it, in my words.

[Batya33]

Just now, catfeeder said:

I hear. Whenever I’m forced to dress conservatively or formally I refer to it as “…putting on my costume…” 

I think of it as dressing up for a Halloween party, and that makes it impersonal and even fun. Especially when it’s for someone I love.

I was far from thrilled with some of the wedding party getups I wore a for entire day and night, including sitting for professionals to do my hair and makeup. Any idea how physically painful high heels can be—for hours and hours? Tripping through grassy landscapes in tight gowns to pose for pictures by lakes and waterfalls?

It’s the stuff some of us are willing to do for love, but it only counts when it’s performed in Academy Award worthy cheerfulness sans the attitude about ME on that day or any day leading up to it.

For clarity, I ask, which is more important, my relationships or my sense of indignation over pretending that I’m a circus actor every now and then?

I nominate for the most important piece of adornment we can possibly ever wear, and that’s a sense of humor. Fueled by generosity and a few Mimosas.

 

I really like this attitude -it's more balanced than mine and I'm happy to rebalance mine as far as sure it's fine to treat it as a costume. Same for me with bridesmaid get ups.  And hair and heels and matchy matchy.  Dontcha love those old strapless bras that cut in??

OP -just don't do what I did at a corporate event - don't indulge in the delectable looking mini lamb chop on the passed houeres douerves unless there are many extra napkins and you're not in the middle of chatting up Doctor Lady's boss.  

Actually that could be a good question for the OP to ask his lady - how does she feel about it -is it the ok time to don the costume or does she like the high heels/dressup thing??

[catfeeder]

5 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I really like this attitude -it's more balanced than mine and I'm happy to rebalance mine as far as sure it's fine to treat it as a costume. Same for me with bridesmaid get ups.  And hair and heels and matchy matchy.  Dontcha love those old strapless bras that cut in??

Yep, it’s like we’ve been telling Alex, either agree to the part and lean in to play it with gusto, or just say NO.

There’s nothing more stupid than accepting the part and complaining about it the whole time.

Pick your side of the fence then get off the thing, because riding down the middle serves NObody.

Martyrdom is sick. It says, “Here, are ya happy now that you’ve made me so miserable? I’m taking you down with me, you $&@!…”

That’s not making anyone happy, man!

[rainbowsandroses]

22 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

The professional environment is quite predictable, and she might feel awkward, arriving at an event with someone who presented in a way that might reflect badly on her and her choices.

IOW, she would be embarrassed by you, to be seen with you at her company events.

And her concern would NOT be for you, and how being required to conform to HER standards to avoid being embarrassed might make YOU feel (emasculated and unworthy as you feel now) but rather her concern is how it would reflect on HER (at least in her mind).

Her company may not and probably would not even care.  I mean you have long hair, so what?  As long as it's clean, I do not get the issue other than it would embarrass HER.

Bottom line, SHE doesn't like it.  It embarrasses her. Has little if anything to do with some company dress code.

Well, suffice it to say I cannot relate and frankly I believe you deserve better than this stuck up elitist b**** who cares  more about "appearances" than she cares about you as a man. 

$02.

 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

IOW, she would be embarrassed by you, to be seen with you at her company events.

And her concern would NOT be for you, and how being required to conform to HER standards to avoid being embarrassed might make YOU feel (emasculated and unworthy as you feel now) but rather her concern is how it would reflect on HER (at least in her mind).

Her company may not and probably would not even care.  I mean you have long hair, so what?  As long as it's clean, I do not get the issue other than it would embarrass HER.

Bottom line, SHE doesn't like it.  It embarrasses her. Has little if anything to do with some company dress code.

Well, suffice it to say I cannot relate and frankly I believe you deserve better than this stuck up elitist b**** who cares  more about "appearances" than she cares about you as a man. 

$02.

 

For sure if it's all about her personally then it becomes a general thing because then she'd want him to change his hair for all sorts of casual family and friend gatherings.  So far she has not - I think he met her mom and brother if I'm not mistaken and nothing at all was said about how he should dress or wear his hair.  He even posted a really nice photo of the two of them and presumably she'd have been fine if he showed it around/posted it on social media and he wore his hair down, he was all chill and casual -no issue at all.

But -hmmm -if she wasn't a professional -which he says he likes -then .... no beach house, no house, no ability to buy a new car -at least not easily -no way for her to contribute financially were this to get serious.  I see often this sort of knee jerk reaction based on appearances- especially women - a woman who appears/is an educated professional is labeled "elitist" or worse at the drop of a hat.  Just like the OP hates being labeled as whatever based on how he dresses/wears his hair.  

They both are package deals -he looked down on her for not knowing some medical term or maybe mispronouncing it? He gets judgey about her preference for nice cars and judges how much $$ she puts into the beach house.  She has judged his hair aside from the professional event situation - so yes it might be connected to her discomfort with how he would look on her arm at an event.

 

[Whirling D]

Thank you, rainbow… That was almost the exact feeling I had when we were talking about it… Like she was making judgments based on appearance, and how it would reflect on her… I felt disrespected and devalued. Not what I expected from her or any potential partner.
 

Everyone has their biases, and their comfort levels, I guess, so I’m trying not to be overly harsh or judgmental about it all… But I can’t shake it. I think it’s a bad reflection on her. But what does it really mean in the greater scheme of things? I can’t yet say. Will I be able to look at her with the same innocent gaze, that I once did, and with trust that I wasn’t going to be judged by superficial means, which has triggered me almost my entire life?

Mind you, I kind of get it. She is in a very proper and conservative profession, and she said she has certain standards She has to uphold and a reputation to look out for. I interpreted that exactly as you did. She doesn’t want to be embarrassed in front of her colleagues. 

We both talked about how it’s not easy for us to trust others, because we have been hurt so many times, and we are super sensitive… Yet she went ahead and said something to me, that was kind of thoughtless… That she should have known better not to say.  I don’t know how much I can trust her moving forward.

does this sound too harsh?

[Sindy_0311]

I won’t comment on the hair issue, as I already gave my opinion, if really she can’t deal with it, maybe she should date someone else… 

Now after reading all the posts about should I reach out or not, she is busy with her friend, let’s give her some time, maybe she will reach out, but maybe not because she is turning a bit cold lately… and so on… my suggestion is stop torturing yourself and do whatever you want. Text her when you want, call her if you feel like to, just do what YOU want, at your own peace… you are past 60, you are a grown up, if you need to ask her questions, if you wonder about anything just TALK to her. Be authentic, be yourself. Is been almost three month now… you better show her who you are and stop calculating and evaluating every and each move. She might not like it, or think you are too needy or insecure, but hey, she might also appreciate it… who knows. But trying to act cold, letting he fade away won’t help you in anyway… my advice at this point is : be yourself. (At least, if she fades away while being your authentic self, you won’t have any doubt about the (lack of) potential of this relationship) 

[Sindy_0311]

5 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

She doesn’t want to be embarrassed in front of her colleagues. 

We are in 2023!! Frankly, who cares about looks?? I would even say that some of her colleagues might consider it refreshing to meet someone a bit different… I think it’s more about her and her lack of open mindedness. 

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

IOW, she would be embarrassed by you, to be seen with you at her company events.

And her concern would NOT be for you, and how being required to conform to HER standards to avoid being embarrassed might make YOU feel (emasculated and unworthy as you feel now) but rather her concern is how it would reflect on HER (at least in her mind).

Her company may not and probably would not even care.  I mean you have long hair, so what?  As long as it's clean, I do not get the issue other than it would embarrass HER.

Bottom line, SHE doesn't like it.  It embarrasses her. Has little if anything to do with some company dress code.

Well, suffice it to say I cannot relate and frankly I believe you deserve better than this stuck up elitist b**** who cares  more about "appearances" than she cares about you as a man. 

$02.

 

Hmmm. Maybe I should have been offended when my sister had my hair and makeup done and zipped me up in this Ghaaad awful gown with Princess Dianna sleeves (I $—- you not!) because she would have been ashamed of my hippie-flower-child appearance in her wedding?

 I can appreciate that we each can hold some extreme views, but to me, supporting someone’s desired outcome with a loved one doesn’t include trashing their loved one and turning minor differences of opinion into toxic abuses and character assaults.

 I just don’t view that as helpful. It sounds like a lot of projection to me.

Sometimes an elastic band is just an elastic band.