feminism not a variable? check splitting

[Seraphim]

7 minutes ago, mylolita said:

At the end of the day - you don't like your job, you can walk away, get a new one.

I don't want to be a Mum one day? No chance. I can never walk away. Unless of course, you are okay with being a neglectful and terrible parent. 

At the end of the day, a job is a job, most people work for money, and that's the long and short of it. Many people take holidays or swap and change jobs and careers throughout their lives when things get tough or don't fit or they need a change. 

Parenting is a completely different thing, and it's not really even technically "work" - it's almost our animalistic instinct in life, and something bigger and with more purpose than a job. It takes more, because you are emotionally involved in a level like no other - in love with your babies, and would die for them. Who would die for their work, or their boss?! It takes a bigger part of you, and once you become a parent, you can't un-parent yourself, even if you leave, you had that life responsibility and if you bail, well, biggest shame on you!

If a surgeon kills someone on the operating table, and I actually know a surgeon (rectal surgery, actually, if we get into it!) and plenty of doctors, if you have followed protocol and dotted the i's and ticked the t's, nothing will happen. It's just "one of those things". If I'm not observing and my baby drowns in the bath tub, it is not "one of those unfortunate things". Not only will I probably go to jail, but it will destroy my life and haunt me for the rest of my time. People commit suicide over accidents like that.

I just don't think you can compare parenting, the responsibility and all consuming emotional and physical and mental nature of it, and your work life, or career.

My husband runs his business and answers phone calls and e-mails at 2am. He deals with people who live in New York, we're here in the UK. It's all consuming. But he can switch off to some extent, but he can never stop being a father!

I think it's just a different league really and not comparable! But I will agree to disagree with you Stan! 

👏👏👏 yup, even though my son is 25 now I can’t just decide I am done being a parent now. I also almost drowned once trying to save his life. I didn’t even second guess jumping into that lake to retrieve my child. I am more invested in him than anything in life . I almost died giving birth to him and almost died saving him . Very very few people I would die for. 

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, Big Stan said:

 That’s an unfair comparison. If you do everything right as a mother and your kid dies nothing happens to you either. The difference is it’s EASIER to do everything right as a parent than as a surgeon, at least as far as avoiding severe consequences. 
 

You don’t beat the crap out of your kid, make sure they learn something and make sure they have food and they will most likely turn out okay. It’s easy to say that as a surgeon if you do everything right you aren’t punished but it’s the exact same for a parent. 
 

 

In fact the bar for being a parent is much lower overall than being a surgeon. If you’re a surgeon that isn’t very skilled you find yourself unemployed because you get sued for malpractice. 
 

If you’re a lackluster parent or even a drug using parent usually little to nothing happens to you. Hell even mothers who have rolled over their kid and killed them in their sleep After a night of drinking get the legal equivalent of oopsie don’t do that again. 
 

Try operating drunk and screwing up and see what happens to you. 

[Seraphim]

2 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

 That’s an unfair comparison. If you do everything right as a mother and your kid dies nothing happens to you either. The difference is it’s EASIER to do everything right as a parent than as a surgeon, at least as far as avoiding severe consequences. 
 

You don’t beat the crap out of your kid, make sure they learn something and make sure they have food and they will most likely turn out okay. It’s easy to say that as a surgeon if you do everything right you aren’t punished but it’s the exact same for a parent. 
 

 

Very uninvested view of parenting . Bare minimum is not parenting . Believe me I had a father who invested as little as humanly possible into being a parent and hate him for it . 

[boltnrun]

My "dad" had that bare minimum, hands off, let them float and presume they'll be OK method of parenting. No one put him in jail for his neglect but he also has zero relationship with three out of his four children. 

I know if I had the same thing happen I would be devastated. However I've been fired from a job and I just dusted myself off and found a new, better job. 

[Seraphim]

3 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

My "dad" had that bare minimum, hands off, let them float and presume they'll be OK method of parenting. No one put him in jail for his neglect but he also has zero relationship with three out of his four children. 

I know if I had the same thing happen I would be devastated. However I've been fired from a job and I just dusted myself off and found a new, better job. 

Yep, my dad didn’t give a rat’s arse I crushed 3 fingers on my right hand and got me no medical care and said tough crap learn to write left handed at school and thought food was optional. But hey at least I didn’t die or “ nothin” 🙄

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, Big Stan said:

There are jobs out there significantly harder than raising kids.

Depends on the kid.  A family friend had 4 kids.  One was born with a rare brain defect and needed 24/7 care and a feeding tube at home. He lived till he was 21 - years longer than he was supposed to according to the doctors (very sweet demeanor although in a wheelchair/nonverbal).  I can't imagine a harder job and yes they had medical help/nursing help but still.

[Big Stan]

2 hours ago, reinventmyself said:

I have to step away from this one.   

Look, I'm glad you have your life all figured out, but no one here is agreeing with you.  You have strong opinions, but they are only opinions. Not fact. Just because this is your experience, respect that it's not the same as others. You also come off a tad misogynistic.

That and the pointed dating advice from a man who appears to have been married for quite some time.

The really important people I know personally don't feel the need to beat a drum about how important they are. 

And someone with such a demanding job with scores of people relying on them shouldn't have time to post on an advice forum all day.

When you have to level charges of mysoggyknee you have lost the argument. All of what I’ve said applies equally if the stay at home parent is a man. Miss me with that bull***. 
 

Also I have plenty of time in my day because I know how to use my time. Too bad you can’t say the same thing because you’re over here struggling with rudimentary tasks. 

[Big Stan]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

Depends on the kid.  A family friend had 4 kids.  One was born with a rare brain defect and needed 24/7 care and a feeding tube at home. He lived till he was 21 - years longer than he was supposed to according to the doctors (very sweet demeanor although in a wheelchair/nonverbal).  I can't imagine a harder job and yes they had medical help/nursing help but still.

I already said above that I accepted that raising disabled children is probably the hardest job and I wouldn’t fight against that. Most people don’t have severely disabled kids though. 

[Big Stan]

7 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

When you have to level charges of mysoggyknee you have lost the argument. All of what I’ve said applies equally if the stay at home parent is a man. Miss me with that bull***. 
 

Also I have plenty of time in my day because I know how to use my time. Too bad you can’t say the same thing because you’re over here struggling with rudimentary tasks. 

Since I’ve woken up I’ve went for a run, planned the weekly meals, answered a few work emails, went grocery shopping, went to the dump, got showered and am now cooking dinner in addition to responding to you. 
 

The difference between you and I is I don’t feel these domestic responsibilities are very difficult and I have plenty of time to accomplish other things while I’m doing them. Maybe it’s you who shouldn’t be on here posting since motherhood alone seems to be taking so much out of you. 
 

Oh and all of this before I go into the office this evening for 5-6 hours to get some work done. 

[Big Stan]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

My "dad" had that bare minimum, hands off, let them float and presume they'll be OK method of parenting. No one put him in jail for his neglect but he also has zero relationship with three out of his four children. 

I know if I had the same thing happen I would be devastated. However I've been fired from a job and I just dusted myself off and found a new, better job. 

I’ve never been fired from a job but the stress of a particular position and toxic company gave me severe panic attacks that lasted for years. 
 

You may not have put much stock into your employment and position but that doesn’t apply to everyone. Of course I would be devastated if my son grew up to hate me, just as I would if a bunch of people lost their jobs and their financial security because I was trash at my job. 

[Batya33]

15 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Since I’ve woken up I’ve went for a run, planned the weekly meals, answered a few work emails, went grocery shopping, went to the dump, got showered and am now cooking dinner in addition to responding to you. 
 

The difference between you and I is I don’t feel these domestic responsibilities are very difficult and I have plenty of time to accomplish other things while I’m doing them. Maybe it’s you who shouldn’t be on here posting since motherhood alone seems to be taking so much out of you. 
 

Oh and all of this before I go into the office this evening for 5-6 hours to get some work done. 

I knew I’d won the lottery. I’m so blessed to have gotten pregnant without intervention at 41.  It sure did and does take a lot out of me. Never saw them as simply “domestic responsibilities “.  Far far deeper and more meaningful.  Sure it takes a lot out of me and I’m not complaining in the least. I signed up for it. My prior career also took a lot out of me. And I signed up for that too. 

[Big Stan]

1 hour ago, Seraphim said:

Yep, my dad didn’t give a rat’s arse I crushed 3 fingers on my right hand and got me no medical care and said tough crap learn to write left handed at school and thought food was optional. But hey at least I didn’t die or “ nothin” 🙄

That proves my point about parenthood having a low bar. If he was a manger working for me and gave that attitude to an associate with a broken finger that occurred on company time he would be fired. 

[Big Stan]

Just now, Batya33 said:

I knew I’d won the lottery. I’m so blessed to have gotten pregnant without intervention at 41.  It sure did and does take a lot out of me. Never saw them as simply “domestic responsibilities “.  Far far deeper and more meaningful.  Sure it takes a lot out of me and I’m not complaining in the least. I signed up for it. My prior career also took a lot out of me. And I signed up for that too. 

I’m glad that you enjoy it. I’m not ***ting on being a parent, I like being a parent too. I just don’t buy all the “parenting is the hardest job in the world” comments. It isn’t, barring a few special circumstances. It’s important for sure but it’s not that hard. 
 

In fact we need to be holding parents to higher standards in general. The bar for parenthood is on the floor and it’s way lower than it is in the corporate world. 

[boltnrun]

5 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

You may not have put much stock into your employment and position

Sigh... there's another assumption about me. Just because I was easily able to find another, better job doesn't mean I "didn't put much stock" into my employment. 

Maybe the reason I found another, better job was because I am eminently employable.

[Seraphim]

2 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

That proves my point about parenthood having a low bar. If he was a manger working for me and gave that attitude to an associate with a broken finger that occurred on company time he would be fired. 

No, parenting ISNT a low bar, it is a low bar for arseholes. And I didn’t just have a broken finger I had 3 crushed fingers and I was 13 and he didn’t give a rat’s arse. He also didn’t feed us and mocked us that he got to eat and his brother was raping me so please don’t think my dad was a “ typical low bar parent.” I am NOT a low bar parent and have invested my entire life and existence into my child. 

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

Sigh... there's another assumption about me. Just because I was easily able to find another, better job doesn't mean I "didn't put much stock" into my employment. 

Maybe the reason I found another, better job was because I am eminently employable.

No the fact that you didn’t care about losing your job. If you did you would have cared that you got fired. I would hate to be fired, which is why it’s never happened to me. 

[boltnrun]

Just now, Big Stan said:

No the fact that you didn’t care about losing your job. If you did you would have cared that you got fired. I would hate to be fired, which is why it’s never happened to me. 

More assumptions.

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, Seraphim said:

No, parenting ISNT a low bar, it is a low bar for arseholes. And I didn’t just have a broken finger I had 3 crushed fingers and I was 13 and he didn’t give a rat’s arse. He also didn’t feed us and mocked us that he got to eat and his brother was raping me so please don’t think my dad was a “ typical low bar parent.” I am NOT a low bar parent and have invested my entire life and existence into my child. 

It’s a low bar because people like that belong in prison and they rarely wind up there. 

[Seraphim]

Just now, Big Stan said:

It’s a low bar because people like that belong in prison and they rarely wind up there. 

Well he is dead now so won’t ever happen. 

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, Seraphim said:

Well he is dead now so won’t ever happen. 

Which kind of proves my point. There’s very little social accountability for doing a poor or even criminal job as a parent. Bad parents are almost never punished. Only sometimes if you actually murder someone do you get punished. Not even always though. 
 

That was a terrible thing that happened to you obviously, there are plenty of people doing an absolutely horrible job at parenting and little to nothing is done about it. 

[Cherylyn]

4 hours ago, Big Stan said:

Then you don't have the sort of job I'm talking about.  I'm never "off" of work.  If there is a problem, I get a call.  If even a low level employee doesn't show up for work and we don't have anyone in that position to cover guess who has to go in to work regardless of what I'm doing?  If work doesn't get done it falls on me.  If bills don't get paid it's my fault ultimately.  There are many jobs that are never done, jobs that require you to have the level of accountability that you do for your kids.  

I have adults that work for me sure, and I'm not literally wiping their ass but I am responsible for everything they do.  One of them makes a mistake and it loses money, they don't lose money I do.  One of them burns an account and now I lose a huge customer they are fine.  Not only my mistakes but the mistakes of everyone below me fall on me to correct or prevent.  As I said I find it more rewarding because not knowing the right answers is harder than knowing them and doing the work.  

I came up in the type of jobs you would think of as extremely physically demanding before I made a career shift and went to white collar.  I got my start in an apprenticeship and chasing after kids is nothing compared to spending a day jackhammering concrete or digging holes.  The thing is, as you moved up and started running large commercial construction projects you longed for those days where your only responsibility was sitting on that jackhammer so you could take a rest mentally from the accountability and financial pressure of all your projects.  

Then you move up too far and that option is no longer there.  Many guys wash out of this type of job.  They can't handle it.  These are guys who were excellent at handling the responsibility they had before, but they were 9-5 guys who wanted to be able to put their work down at the end of the day.  At a high enough level that's no longer possible.  

@Big Stan Oh yes I have.  I've had outdoor jobs in sweltering,  blistering heat,  wind,  rain,  inclement weather,  had to walk 10 miles daily round trip to and from my outdoor job when I didn't have a car and a pressure cooker office job as well.  I was never a low level employee either. 

I've worn many hats and even more hats at the home front while expecting babies for 18 months,  experienced horrible 24 / 7 nausea,  had rough pregnancies,  nursed my babies for almost a year and my body took a long time to heal and recover.  I did all this while doing everything to support (including financially) a husband enrolled in grad school not once but twice,  chased after him if he forgot his home cooked meals-on-the-go in the cooler,  supported him during his numerous business travels,  thoroughly tended to the children,  did a ton of chores,  tasks,  errands,  minded the home front simultaneously and I didn't have the "luxury" to shower nor eat until I could sneak it in.  And, sleep?  😵  What's that?  I'd toil long after everyone else in the family went to bed for the night.  I ran on fumes. 

Send me off to work and when I come home,  all chores and errands were done and completed,  my laundry is fresh and clean,  my clothes ironed,  house is clean,  delicious home cooked meals are piping hot and ready to eat,  children are well tended as usual and I get to have everything magically taken care of for me.  Give me that any day! 

[Big Stan]

5 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

More assumptions.

Did you or did you not say that you got fired and just dusted yourself off and moved on?  You compared it to how devastated you’d be if your kids disliked you, which means by comparison you don’t care. 
 

I didn’t have to assume anything, I can read and comprehend what I’ve read, which isn’t a universal skill.  So if for you it was less serious it’s fair to say you don’t put much, or at least as much stock in your employment as you do your parenting. 
 

That isn’t the case for everyone. I am responsible for a lot of people. They rely on me making the right decisions to pay their bills and earn an honest living. I feel that in a very real way and I would be absolutely devastated if I failed at it. That’s why I’ve never been fired, I’ve never been able to just say screw it and stop putting in the above and beyond effort. 
 

I care in a way that, by your own admission, you do not. 

[boltnrun]

Not going to bother.

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, Cherylyn said:

@Big Stan Oh yes I have.  I've had outdoor jobs in sweltering,  blistering heat,  wind,  rain,  inclement weather,  had to walk 10 miles daily round trip to and from my outdoor job when I didn't have a car and a pressure cooker office job as well.  I was never a low level employee either. 

I've worn many hats and even more hats at the home front while expecting babies for 18 months,  experienced horrible 24 / 7 nausea,  had rough pregnancies,  nursed my babies for almost a year and my body took a long time to heal and recover.  I did all this while doing everything to support (including financially) a husband enrolled in grad school not once but twice,  chased after him if he forgot his home cooked meals-on-the-go in the cooler,  supported him during his numerous business travels,  thoroughly tended to the children,  did a ton of chores,  tasks,  errands,  minded the home front simultaneously and I didn't have the "luxury" to shower nor eat until I could sneak it in.  And, sleep?  😵  What's that?  I'd toil long after everyone else in the family went to bed for the night.  I ran on fumes. 

Send me off to work and when I come home,  all chores and errands were done and completed,  my laundry is fresh and clean,  my clothes ironed,  house is clean,  delicious home cooked meals are piping hot and ready to eat,  children are well tended as usual and I get to have everything magically taken care of for me.  Give me that any day! 

That’s not a fair comparison if you worked full time while doing the housework. If anything that really proves MY point. 

[Big Stan]

Just now, boltnrun said:

Not going to bother.

That’s probably a wise decision.