Need FWB Advice

[Jibralta]

Actually, I'm just arguing the abstract point. If he makes adjustments for her, that is decent. Time will tell on that front. He still seems to be leaving it in her court as to whether he pulls back or not, which is putting the responsibility on her--not him taking responsibility. There are some old Looney Tunes cartoons that illustrate this concept really well. Like when they spin someone around and the character think they're facing a different direction, but really they're facing the same direction.

 

I do think Freckles is idealizing the situation, though.

[katrina1980]

Actually, I'm just arguing the abstract point. If he makes adjustments for her, that is decent. Time will tell on that front. He still seems to be leaving it in her court as to whether he pulls back or not, which is putting the responsibility on her--not him taking responsibility. There are some old Looney Tunes cartoons that illustrate this concept really well. Like when they spin someone around and the character think they're facing a different direction, but really they're facing the same direction.

 

I do think Freckles is idealizing the situation, though.

 

Agree she is idealizing; when we are really into someone, it's quite easy to do. I've done it myself.

 

I've projected, deluded myself, all of it.

 

Re him putting the responsibility on her, leaving it to her decide what SHE wants, of course he is.

 

She is an adult, capable of making her own choices, no?

 

I think it would be quite arrogant of him to decide for her.

 

He's been honest and clear about what he wants. And doesn't want.

 

So yeah it's definitely up to HER to decide what she wants, her choice to make.

[Batya33]

He's also a human being who is capable of compassion and empathy. He doesn't have to act like a human meat grinder. And of course it's not a requirement, but it's common courtesy and just plain human to extend decency and consideration towards other people. People are not always aware of their feelings or good at communicating them. A small amount of understanding goes a long way.

 

Absolutely. He needs to treat her with the respect he would treat any human being. So he has IMO. He told her what his boundaries are and that is a sexual arrangement. She agreed. I think it goes beyond what he is required to do with a consenting adult to try to monitor her feelings or whether she is aware of her feelings. If she agreed to a sexual arrangement that is basically a physical arrangement - he calls her or she calls him when she or he feels like having sex and they have sex. If they also chat or hang out or drink that's fine too but that's within the confines of him telling her from the beginning he doesn't want to be in a romantic relationship with her. He is not responsible for her lying to herself or disrespecting her wishes -that is between her and herself or possibly an outsider like a counselor. Part of the sex arrangement is that you don't have to go there - you don't have to wonder if that person is good at communicating feelings - unless it has to do with pregnancy or a potential or actual STD -then his human compassion and courtesy would require him to do what is ethical and moral and compassionate so that she was not at risk of physical harm (and same goes for her).

 

I think that people who agree to sexual arrangements like the one described here are signing up for the majority of the focus being on the intercourse and the physical body. Other sexual arrangements might have different boundaries and intentions - I'm just referring to this one. And that's fine for a consenting adult. If he/she wants something different she should not do it and should not continue doing it. I don't think people (and it's usually the woman) has to be treated like a fragile flower by their sex partner. I would think that defeats the purpose of being able to text or call and meet up to have your sexual needs satisfied. We just have a different definition of what courtesy, empathy and compassion require - not that I don't think those have any place in a sexual arrangement.

 

I don't think she's being understanding in the sense that she's going down the path of ignoring what he said at the outset and instead analyzing his tears when he was drunk. If she were to accuse him of leading her on then in my opinion that would show a lack of human understanding on her part.

 

I think if she wants someone who's going to delve into how she communicates her feelings, when, the environment in which she communicates her feelings then a sexual arrangement is not the right arrangement -not this one anyway where she can call it FWB if that makes her more comfortable but they were never true friends in the first place.

[figureitout23]

Agree she is idealizing; when we are really into someone, it's quite easy to do. I've done it myself.

 

I've projected, deluded myself, all of it.

 

Re him putting the responsibility on her, leaving it to her decide what SHE wants, of course he is.

 

She is an adult, capable of making her own choices, no?

 

I think it would be quite arrogant of him to decide for her.

 

He's been honest and clear about what he wants. And doesn't want.

 

So yeah it's definitely up to HER to decide what she wants, her choice to make.

 

Excellent points made by you and Jilbralta

 

Re arrogance to decide for her. I think it's arrogant and selfish to know someone has feelings for you and you know you don't feel the same but you continue to enjoy their company and the benefits given cause 'you didn't say no'

 

That to me is arrogant and self centered that you aren't taking the other persons feelings into consideration, especially someone you're having a sexual relationship with. This whole idea that casual sex means you can just treat the other person any kinda way, like the threshold for common decency with a sexual partner is that of a stranger on the street does not sit well with me. It's not a mindset I share. He's acting as if they're dating when it's convieneint for him, that again is arrogance, walking away because he sees she has feelings and he doesn't indicates him being an adult. Just like her walking away would indicate the same.

 

At the end of the day though batya and others are right that it is her responsibility to remove herself from the situation and be honest with herself. I just disagree that he's just this innocent bystander allowing her to do what she pleases. Personal responsibility goes both ways.

 

I'm not a fan of one being absolved from guilt because she 'allowed' it, I think people should be held accountable for their actions. Obviously he's not doing anything illegal but to me it's morally wrong.

[Batya33]

To me he is showing personal responsibility. He communicated his boundaries from the beginning. And she apparently liked the benefits of sex enough to make it worth the risk of choosing to react to personal feelings for him. Apparently she doesn't do sexual arrangements well in the sense that she develops feelings and reacts by wanting a romantic relationship with someone who doesn't want it with her and goes down the path of telling herself stories.

[katrina1980]

@figureitout, I get what you're saying, but in this particular situation, OP "wants" to continue seeing him, as is. Knowing he does not want a "relationship" with her.

 

Why should he deny her what SHE herself wants by walking away?

 

He has offered to pull back, she said no, she wants this to continue, just as it is..

 

Do you think he should take it upon himself and assume to know what is best for her, more so than *she* should know what's best for *herself*?

 

She's not a child for heaven's sake. Right now, even knowing he doesn't want a relationship, she is choosing what *she* still feels is best for herself.

 

Yes he is allowing her that choice, which benefits him, but it also benefits her, because it's also what "she" wants.

 

Whether or not we agree with her choice is irrelevant, bottom line it's still her choice to make.

 

So while again, I get your point (generally) just not quite understanding your rationale in this particular situation.

[ThatwasThen]

Last night we drank (a lot), and things got kind of weird. With newfound drunken confidence I told him that if we wanted this to continue, we needed to separate a bit more because it's getting hard for me to just keep this as sex when we seem to be getting close.

If YOU want more with him why did you frame your conversation with him this way? The way you chose to word this, you have made it sound like it is YOU that doesn't want more.

 

What DO YOU WANT to end up happening with him? If it's a relationship of the full-on committed, monogamous kind then why didn't you tell him that and then let the chips fall where they may? It's unlikely but for all you know he may have wanted more but kept that to himself because you made it obvious you didn't want more then what you have with him.

[figureitout23]

@figureitout, I get what you're saying, but in this particular situation, OP "wants" to continue seeing him, as is. Knowing he does not want a "relationship" with her.

 

Why should he deny her what SHE herself wants by walking away?

 

He has offered to pull back, she said no, she wants this to continue, just as it is..

 

Do you think he should take it upon himself and assume to know what is best for her, more so than *she* should know what's best for *herself*?

 

She's not a child for heaven's sake. Right now, even knowing he doesn't want a relationship, she is choosing what *she* still feels is best for herself.

 

Yes he is allowing her that choice, which benefits him, but it also benefits her, because it's also what "she" wants.

 

Whether or not we agree with her choice is irrelevant, bottom line it's still her choice to make.

 

So while again, I get your point (generally) just not quite understanding your rationale in this particular situation.

 

To me he's deliberately being indirect

 

When we woke up in the morning I asked him why he got upset. He kept trying to ignore the question, but eventually said he felt bad about me having feelings for him and getting upset, and that if I need him to pull away he will. We agreed to forget about the whole thing for now, and even joked about it when he drove me home.

 

He avoided the question then put it on her to decide. A mature adult would say,' I feel guilty about this whole situations and I think it's best for the both of us to pull away, I don't feel for you what you feel for me.' But he doesn't want that, so he's perfectly fine allowing this muddled situation to continue.

 

Is he obligated to pull away? No, of course not, but someone's gotta be the adult here.

 

Unfortunately, because OPer has found herself with the emotional short end of the stick it's going to have to be on her. Doesn't mean he isn't on shaky moral ground. He cried for some reason, I truly believe it's from guilt.

 

Again, eventually someone's gonna have to be the adult.

[figureitout23]

If YOU want more with him why did you frame your conversation with him this way? The way you chose to word this, you have made it sound like it is YOU that doesn't want more.

 

What DO YOU WANT to end up happening with him? If it's a relationship of the full-on committed, monogamous kind then why didn't you tell him that and then let the chips fall where they may? It's unlikely but for all you know he may have wanted more but kept that to himself because you made it obvious you didn't want more then what you have with him.

 

You know I didn't even look at it this way, quite possible.

[katrina1980]

Fair enough. Still don't agree but you're entitled to your opinion.

 

That said, I've never heard of anyone actually crying over guilt. Not suggesting it doesnt happen, just never heard of it.

 

I think he was crying, because at that moment, he felt moved. The drinking contributed for sure.

 

I think this guy's got some major issues surrounding relationships/commitment.

 

Despite claiming he does not want a relationship, it really does appear there are "feelings" there on his part.

 

He's struggling, fighting them, pushing them out. Not sure why, some sort of fear would be my guess.

 

I think all this was building up, and when drinking, his guard came down, he felt moved by what OP had just shared with him, and he started crying. Hell, OP said they were crying together!

 

Man, other than sex, a couple can't get much more intimate than that.

 

When he woke up, sober, his guard went back up, thus him announcing once again he does not want a relationship.

 

Just my take, I could be wrong!

[Batya33]

If YOU want more with him why did you frame your conversation with him this way? The way you chose to word this, you have made it sound like it is YOU that doesn't want more.

 

What DO YOU WANT to end up happening with him? If it's a relationship of the full-on committed, monogamous kind then why didn't you tell him that and then let the chips fall where they may? It's unlikely but for all you know he may have wanted more but kept that to himself because you made it obvious you didn't want more then what you have with him.

 

Great point!!!

[figureitout23]

Fair enough. Still don't agree but you're entitled to your opinion.

 

That said, I've never heard of anyone actually crying over guilt. Not suggesting it doesnt happen, just never heard of it.

 

I think he was crying, because at that moment, he felt moved. The drinking contributed for sure.

 

I think this guy's got some major issues surrounding relationships/commitment.

 

Despite claiming he does not want a relationship, it really does appear there are "feelings" there on his part.

 

He's struggling, fighting them, pushing them out. Not sure why, some sort of fear would be my guess.

 

I think all this was building up, and when drinking, his guard came down, he felt moved by what OP had just shared with him, and he started crying. Hell, OP said they were crying together!

 

Man, other than sex, a couple can't get much more intimate than that.

 

When he woke up, sober, his guard went back up, thus him announcing once again he does not want a relationship.

 

Just my take, I could be wrong!

 

Seems quite plausible.

[Jibralta]

That to me is arrogant and self centered that you aren't taking the other persons feelings into consideration, especially someone you're having a sexual relationship with. This whole idea that casual sex means you can just treat the other person any kinda way, like the threshold for common decency with a sexual partner is that of a stranger on the street does not sit well with me. It's not a mindset I share. He's acting as if they're dating when it's convieneint for him, that again is arrogance, walking away because he sees she has feelings and he doesn't indicates him being an adult. Just like her walking away would indicate the same.

 

At the end of the day though batya and others are right that it is her responsibility to remove herself from the situation and be honest with herself. I just disagree that he's just this innocent bystander allowing her to do what she pleases. Personal responsibility goes both ways.

 

Yes, that's my argument, too. They're both to blame. But it seems like people want Freckles to believe that it ok to for him to jerk her around because "she asked for it" and "she knew what she was getting into." I don't think she should feel that way about herself. She should not accept all of that responsibility. She's entitled to decent treatment. And being part of a FWB situation doesn't mean she can't be wronged. But she should get in touch with reality.

[Batya33]

Yes, that's my argument, too. They're both to blame. But it seems like people want Freckles to believe that it ok to for him to jerk her around because "she asked for it" and "she knew what she was getting into." I don't think she should feel that way about herself. She should not accept all of that responsibility. She's entitled to decent treatment. And being part of a FWB situation doesn't mean she can't be wronged. But she should get in touch with reality.

 

I don't feel that way at all. That's twisting my words. I agree with all you wrote. He should not jerk her around. She didn't "ask for it". She of course knew what she agreed to -a sexual arrangement with a man who doesn't want a relationship with her. Seems to me that if she's an adult as she says she is that we should take her word for her knowing that she agreed to that. I think she is getting treated decently by him and treating herself disrespectfully and dishonestly because she's rationalizing/lying to herself that she's ok with a sexual arrangement with him. Of course she can be wronged in any interaction with another human being. I don't think they are FWBs because they weren't friends first. I think they have an arrangement where they meet up to have sex and have agreed that there is no potential for a relationship (and I assume if one of them changed their minds they would communicate that and then choose whether to stay or go depending on their comfort with the response).

 

She is not being wronged here IMO - he is open to continuing the sexual arrangement they agreed to. I really like Thatwasthen's point that what she said to him could have been taken to mean that she didn't want a relationship, not him.

 

So, no I don't think a sexual arrangement allows anyone to act like a jerk. We just disagree on what a sexual arrangement means in this situation (because it might mean different things in other situations -I'm going by what she described they do) and doesn't mean and what the responsibilities are in this particular one.

 

I do think that sexual arrangements are not for everyone and certainly not for people like the OP who get emotionally attached through sex and react to the emotions by then looking for "signs" that the guy (or gal) didn't mean what he said at the outset. And react by being dishonest with themselves and rationalizing settling for an arrangement that isn't right for them.

[Jibralta]

This has been the point that I'm making. So if we agree, we agree.

[Pleasedonot5]

I don't think a "pass" is relevant here. To me he was clear. He said from the beginning he did not want a relationship with her. He has never said he does want a relationship with her. I think those words in that context take top priority especially when sex is involved (I mean from a physical health/medical standpoint, not emotional). She is choosing to analyze his crying and other reactions as him wanting a relationship with her. That's on her. I don't think it's fair to impose on anyone the responsibility to keep affirming "this is a sexual arrangement and I'm not interested in a relationship with you" - if she wants to know if he changed his mind she can ask simply and directly. If that is uncomfortable for her I'd suggest she ask herself why she's comfortable having intercourse with him but not asking what his intentions are or if they have changed.

I agree with this. Dude said it.

[itsallgrand]

There is something so funny to me about Batya being referred to as dude. Lol.

[Seymore]

I only had to read two paragraphs to tell this is a bad idea. Once you said you have feelings it was clear this isn't the arrangement you're looking for.

[katrina1980]

I asked this earlier and no one answered.

 

FWBs- Is it standard to speak every day, see each other every other day (which some weeks could be as often as 4 times a week!), which HE initiates, spend the night together, snuggle/cuddle together, share deep thoughts and feelings with each other about life, love, etc and cry together?

 

I'm sorry but this doesn't sound like a "casual sexual relationship" this sounds like a very intimate romantic relationship, way more than FWBs!

 

Frankly I think he's full of * when he says he "doesn't want a relationship."

 

For all intents and purposes based on his *actions* they already "are" in a relationship! Perhaps not a committed relationship, but a relationship nevertheless.

 

Two people "relating" on a very deep, intimate and sexual level = a relationship.

 

Re him "stringing her along" or "wronging" her, I'd like to present another similar scenario.

 

Let's say for the sake of this discussion he got his head out of his a** and admitted to himself (and OP) they're in a relationship.

 

But he wasn't ready to be exclusive. She was ready, but accepted he was not and agreed to continue dating him.

 

Would "that" be considered "stringing her along" or "wronging" her?

 

Is every man who is dating a woman, but not yet ready (or wanting) to be exclusive, and the woman he is dating is, which he knows, stringing her along?

 

Even when she fully accepts he's not ready yet and agrees to continue dating him?

 

Is so, why? And how is this situation different?

 

He's been 100% honest and forthright about where he's at and where she stands.

 

OP has zero problem with that. Or so that is what she has told him and led him to believe.

 

So based on that, how is he "wronging" her or stringing her along?

 

Sorry I am not understating this mindset.

 

I'd like to understand though, since that's the general consensus.

 

What am I missing? Serious question.

[Batya33]

I think it’s crucial to focus more on words than actions in this one situation / if someone says she doesn’t want a relationship do not interpret actions to mean anything different. In almost every other situation I am a fan of prioritizing actions overvwords. People who say they do not want a relationship but then act all couply want the benefits of playing house - not playing games - playing house because there’s no risk of leading tjevperson on. You’ve already made yourself clear that the arrangement is to meet for sex. Someone who wants a relationship or potential relationship wants to make sure his or her special person doesn’t get snapped up by someone else and wouldnt risk sabotaging it by saying he or she doesn’t want a relationship.

Of course people in a sexual arrangement might see each other every day - people have different sex drives and she is calling it fwb so perhaps he also likes hanging out with her. And sure a part of him might want a relationship with her but not badly enough to change his mind and make sure she knows she is his and only his. And without that certainty there’s no point to exploring a potential relationship. And he has never told her he changed his mind.

Of course someone might think I have a mans opinion. I see too many men accused of being jerks by women who say yes to a sexual arrangement and then get attached and then upsetvwith the man for not wanting more and this in turn leads to a jaded and bitter outlook about “men” and how they “use “ women.

[katrina1980]

I guess I must think like a man too (at least in this respect) cause I don't consider him stringing her along either.

 

What I do see is a very conflicted man.

 

Acting one way but saying another.

 

I don't think he's doing this for the "benefits" (sex), I think he has genuine feelings for her, but again, conflicted.

 

Perhaps I'm being naive, I just don't think a man who only wanted sex would behave the way he does, specifically the sharing of intimate personal thoughts/feelings and crying together. That indicates an emotional connection, not merely sexual.

 

As I said before, I think he has feelings and on some level wants a relationship but something is blocking him from moving towards that.

 

Some sort of fear or something. Fear of intimacy or commitment fears.

 

Just what I'm sensing. I could very well be wrong.

 

Really good discussion though!

 

What happened to the OP? lol

[boltnrun]

OP probably got scared off by all the arguing I mean debate.

 

I had a long-term "connection" with a guy who introduced me to his family, took me with him every time he traveled, met my family and came to my family holiday dinners, invited me to stay over all weekend, every weekend with him, held my hand and put his arm around me when we walked or sat, took me with him when he went on job interviews (I waited in his truck lol), I met many of his friends, he met many of mine...and when I approached him for "the talk", he told he "wasn't feeling it"! And that we were not a couple! And this was after nearly a year.

 

He told me he didn't necessarily want to end our "arrangement", that it was up to me if I wanted to continue or end it. I chose to end it, but a couple of months later he started inviting me over again. And dumb me, I thought that meant he missed me and was ready to be a real couple, but when I asked him "the question" a few months later he referred me to our previous conversation!

 

Some might say he "strung" me along, some might say he was deceptive, some might say he gave me a false impression, but he never once told me we were an exclusive committed couple and he had never called me his girlfriend. So, was anyone to "blame"? Sure, I was hurt but I took it as a learning lesson...don't assume just because a man seems to enjoy spending time with me and enjoys physical contact, that means he wants me to be his girlfriend. I had to take responsibility for my choices and for not attempting to clarify until nearly a year had gone by.

 

Now I know...if a man says he doesn't want a relationship it's up to me if I want to give him sex. And if I do, it MUST be with the understanding that it will not "turn into" a relationship, no matter how many times he cuddles me or texts me when he has a bad day or does anything else "couple-y".

[katrina1980]

I actually agree with you bolt.

 

No matter what his reasons -- whether it's a fear of intimacy, commitment fears or simply a lack of desire for - when a man says he does not want a relationship, and the woman does, best to simply walk away and find a guy who wants what she wants.

[Jibralta]

I can only speak for myself. FWB is generally not for me, but I have had a couple of friendships where lines got blurred. In one instance, I was friends with a guy that I had also briefly dated for a couple of months. Our friendship lasted for years after dating. I saw him several times a month. There was one particular night where we were both drinking and I planned to spend the night. I knew he still liked me. I didn't feel the same way about him anymore. But on this night, I had a moment where I was seriously tempted to hook up with him. I knew it would have gone my way if I had tried, that I'd been clear and he really couldn't "say" anything. But I knew that I would be taking advantage of his feelings, which would pretty much make me a dog. I knew that he could interpret it as more, despite the fact that I'd been clear about how I felt. I didn't want to confuse the sh-t out of him. So I went to bed a little frustrated that night. Big deal. 10+ years later I feel good when I look back and know that I didn't mess with my friend's head for my own personal satisfaction.

 

I see it the same way in Freckles's situation. Yes, she's part of the problem. But now that he knows her feelings, if he still doesn't share them and continues with the arrangement blithely touting "FWB," he's taking advantage. I don't give myself a pass on something like that, and I wouldn't give him one either.

[Pleasedonot5]

There is something so funny to me about Batya being referred to as dude. Lol.

Dude as in OP's dude, dude.