Red Flag if the guy on first date does not pay for my food?

[katrina1980]

Right or wrong, for me, the whole 'who pays' issue and how much $$ to spend etc reminds me more like a business transaction or friendship, NOT a romantic date.

 

In early stages (first three dates), splitting the check, or paying his share, really makes me "feel" more like a friend than a woman he is interested in romantically.

 

The man I'm dating now, he paid for first three dates. I cooked dinner once and offered to pay for 4th date.

 

Why did I pay? I wanted to reciprocate. It was nothing expensive, just drinks and apps, but he appreciated it.

 

I think that's what it's about, initiating and reciprocating.

 

Spend within your means. No woman who is interested is gonna negatively judge you for not taking her to 5 star restaurant. Hell, I enjoy a walk and ice cream when really into a guy.

 

Date genuinely, and honestly. No shyt tests, they have the potential of screwing everything up, as evidenced here.

[IAmFCA]

In the case where you aren't happy with the date, the location, the prices, and not interested in taking the relationship further, keep your eye on what you are ordering and cover your cost. In the case where you ARE dating someone ongoing, hopefully you are better able to agree on a mutually acceptable location. I found, since I didn't drink or eat as much as my partner, nor make as much money, it was sometimes helpful to agree ahead of time that we would split the bill and I'd indicate what I had to contribute. Then I'd order accordingly within my budget. Maybe it's not romantic, but I had limited funds.

 

Agree, I remain conscious of what I order.

 

I hear you re watching your spend.

[itsallgrand]

Ok Kat, but what you are really saying is that you prefer for a man to pay more than you if he dates you.

 

To me,,that seems more like a transaction than two people going out and each paying a fair share ( however that is done).

[katrina1980]

Ok Kat, but what you are really saying is that you prefer for a man to pay more than you if he dates you.

 

To me,,that seems more like a transaction than two people going out and each paying a fair share ( however that is done).

 

Did you read my last post? I said it's about initiating and reciprocating.

 

Early dates, yes I do prefer the man to pay. I explained why. And no it does not feel like a business transaction.

 

It makes me feel special. Among other things.

 

I know some men will chime in saying, well the man wants to feel special too.

 

I realize that and do my BEST to make him feel special. Which they do.

 

Not by me paying though, although they appreciate when I do.

 

Yin and yang. Masculine vs. feminine. For me.

[itsallgrand]

I did read your posts, and unless I misread, you stated a clear preference for the man to pay in early dating.

[katrina1980]

I did read your posts, and unless I misread, you stated a clear preference for the man to pay in early dating.

 

Ok fair enough.

 

For you that would feel like a transaction, for me it does not.

 

Is there a right or wrong here? Other than what feels right or wrong to each of us?

 

I don't think so, but if you or others disagree, then I respect that.

 

We all should do what feels best for us.

 

Fortunately, the men I attract and date feel the same as I do, it's never been an issue.

 

Like never.

[katrina1980]

It's funny, I recall with my ex, the first time I offered to pay, he was actually insulted!

 

My car was towed once, when we got to the shop to get it, I went to pay towing charges (it was my car), and he got insulted by that too!

 

We are both from New York, middle to upper middle class.

 

The man paying, providing was standard there.

 

My mom didn't work. Dad gave us allowance.

 

I don't know but I'm sure this has a bearing on how I feel now about the issue.

 

Although to my credit I have evolved a lot!

 

Like I said, I paid for 4th date with my BF now. We've lost count of dates but I pay quite a bit.

 

I also plan stuff for us to do.

 

It's a give and take, I was just talking early stages liking him to pay, and leading.

[itsallgrand]

My experience when dating was that most men expected to pay more to date, and most men tried to even after my attempting to change the dynamic. I would say it is a norm , but not necessarily better nor an egalitarian way. I suppose that is what bothers me - those who stubbornly insist it is equitable , when it clear is not and is gender based. At least admit it is sexist, and you like it that way, because in this case it is a sexist practise you find preferable and do not wish to give up.

 

With my current, he tried to pay all the time and we fixed that up early. And I'm glad. This is a man I know I won't be complaining about not doing his share at home even after the baby comes. We both will do anything that needs doing.

 

Yes some people prefer a different dynamic. That's their choice. Main thing is be honest. I may not agree but I don't have todaye you

[katrina1980]

My experience when dating was that most men expected to pay more to date, and most men tried to even after my attempting to change the dynamic. I would say it is a norm , but not necessarily better nor an egalitarian way. I suppose that is what bothers me - those who stubbornly insist it is equitable , when it clear is not and is gender based. At least admit it is sexist, and you like it that way, because in this case it is a sexist practise you find preferable and do not wish to give up.

 

With my current, he tried to pay all the time and we fixed that up early. And I'm glad. This is a man I know I won't be complaining about not doing his share at home even after the baby comes. We both will do anything that needs doing.

 

Yes some people prefer a different dynamic. That's their choice. Main thing is be honest. I may not agree but I don't have todaye you

 

I am being honest.

 

I couldn't be more honest. I own how I feel, and not ashamed by it.

 

I also like a man to be dominant, especially sexually. I own that too. Outside the bedroom, I am independent in how I think, feel and act.

 

Yes it makes for quite an interesting and intriguing dynamic. I own all of this!

 

As for being sexist, okay if preferring a man plan and pay for first few dates, after which we both initiate and reciprocate, and/or enjoying his dominance in the bedroom, is sexist, then I own that too.

 

I don't think it is, but if you do, so be it. It's not for me to argue or judge you for thinking/feeling as you do.

[j.man]

I've never understood how paying for what you order is at all complicated or transactional. It should be one of the most reflexive practices as an adult. I've never ordered a meal and then had my head spin with numbers and integrals once a bill arrives for it.

 

There are a couple billion people in the world who I'm just as unfamiliar with as I am a woman I'm going on a first date with and who could certainly use the $17 for dinner a lot more than she could. If anything is transactional, it's spotting a woman for dinner when she's offered little at that point other than being a pair of boobs who's opted to grace me, a lowly plebeian of a man, with her presence. If both your times are equally as valuable, there's no reason one should compensate the other for theirs. Such a precedent is almost intrinsically transactional, if we're going to make such arguments.

 

I give money to and pay for people for one of two reasons: they need it or they've earned it. Nobody needs an unlimited salad and breadsticks combo at Olive Garden and I certainly don't know a random lady enough for her to have earned it. If I were interested in paying someone for their time, I'd hire an escort who's a couple points out of my league.

[katrina1980]

@ j.man, intellectually you're right.

 

But dating/romance/sex is not intellectual, it's emotional. Even a first date is emotional for many people.

 

You read these threads, everyone over-thinking, over-analyzing everything, even a first meet! It's all emotional. True in "real life" too not just on these forums.

 

That is why this "who pays" issue is always such a hot topic. It's not as simple as a woman wanting a free meal or feeling entitled.

 

It goes deeper than that for many women, as I tried to explain but apparently failed.

 

Oh I don't know, maybe that poster who was trolling is right. It's all a game.

 

I wish it weren't that way but it is in one form or another.

 

I need to just accept this and stop fighting it!

 

We all play in whatever way suits us, whatever works for us.

[Hollyj]

Don't really understand why you put your card on the table, if you thought he should pay. Then, you declined his offer. Your behavior is a big contradiction,

[Batya33]

Instead of paying half, why not cover your part of the order, and order within your budget?

 

{Edit} These discussions baffle me. But then, I would not go on a date to a pricey restaurant with someone I barely know. Pricey is not my style, so it would feel like a mismatch to me that early on. It's different if we've become a couple and know that we already have much in common, and the pricey restaurant is clearly a special celebration of some sort, not an expectation.

 

Because I find it awkward to go through the bill that way and often appetizers and desserts are shared. whenever a man took me to an expensive restaurant, I ordered inexpensively but sometimes he insisted on ordering an expensive appetizer or bottle of wine (and I would explain that I would drink maybe 3/4 of a glass, that's it).

 

Another example where I think it worked, sort of - I had a first meet and he took a two hour train ride to meet me in my city. (meeting in the middle didn't make sense) - so meeting just for coffee also didn't make sense. I took him to a very good but moderately priced asian restaurant and in advance told him I insisted on treating since he traveled to meet me. He ordered an appetizer (I didn't) and an entree (I did too). I was fine with it but honestly if it were me and I knew someone was treating I'd only order a second course/appetizer if he/she did. Different strokes I guess!

[IAmFCA]

I am being honest.

 

I couldn't be more honest. I own how I feel, and not ashamed by it.

 

I also like a man to be dominant, especially sexually. I own that too. Outside the bedroom, I am independent in how I think, feel and act.

 

Yes it makes for quite an interesting and intriguing dynamic. I own all of this!

 

As for being sexist, okay if preferring a man plan and pay for first few dates, after which we both initiate and reciprocate, and/or enjoying his dominance in the bedroom, is sexist, then I own that too.

 

I don't think it is, but if you do, so be it. It's not for me to argue or judge you for thinking/feeling as you do.

 

Not sexist because it is you applying your preference to. your choice of man. It would be sexist if you thought this dominance is the definition of masculinity, or that all men should be this way.

 

I like this in a man as well, but its tricky for sure. I like decisive people in general, for whatever purpose. I get fruatrated when people hem and haw, or cater to me. I know what I want. If I cede control its because I want to learn from you, about you, or receive the gift of your efforts. my gfs and I do this for each other too.

[itsallgrand]

Not to drone on and on, and I swear I'm not trying to pick on anybody, but I checked the definition of sexist to make sure I'm not being heavy handed in applying that word. And I do dislike when people throw around terms like 'sexist' without great care. I do think it applies still.

 

Merriam-Webster is a rather good source, widely recognized.

Part 2 conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes based on sex.

 

But check for yourself.

 

It's not 'emotional' to associate a man paying for a woman unequally with masculinity . It's a very specific set of beliefs about gender roles .

 

A man can be masculine, and not operate under this belief system. He can also be a dominant personality, and not adhere to it.

 

And if a masculine, dominant man were to stop paying for beginning dating, would he suddenly become less those characteristics?

 

Again, not trying to drone on and on. I do think the preference that a man pays in beginning is different and seperate from personality preference. It's more about beliefs about roles. And sure that can go deep. It can even feel emotional, and instinctual. But conditioning can go deep - anyone who has tried to change and challenge something they've believed for a long time knows how hard it can be.

[figureitout23]

Not to drone on and on, and I swear I'm not trying to pick on anybody, but I checked the definition of sexist to make sure I'm not being heavy handed in applying that word. And I do dislike when people throw around terms like 'sexist' without great care. I do think it applies still.

 

Merriam-Webster is a rather good source, widely recognized.

Part 2 conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes based on sex.

 

But check for yourself.

 

It's not 'emotional' to associate a man paying for a woman unequally with masculinity . It's a very specific set of beliefs about gender roles .

 

A man can be masculine, and not operate under this belief system. He can also be a dominant personality, and not adhere to it.

 

And if a masculine, dominant man were to stop paying for beginning dating, would he suddenly become less those characteristics?

 

Again, not trying to drone on and on. I do think the preference that a man pays in beginning is different and seperate from personality preference. It's more about beliefs about roles. And sure that can go deep. It can even feel emotional, and instinctual. But conditioning can go deep - anyone who has tried to change and challenge something they've believed for a long time knows how hard it can be.

 

Oh for petes sake include the first part of the definition please:

 

Prejudice and discrimination based on sex; Especially discrimination against women.

 

I'm just saying if you're going to site something site it completely. You're trying to use the term 'sexist' or 'sexism' , negatively by going with its literal deffinition but it's not, it's simply the literal definition. The first part of the definition is where it gets its negative connotation.

 

We're back to gender roles, I'll repeat what I said last time, society follows gender roles, the lines are blurred heavily which is a good thing but people consciously choose everyday to follow some, it's not being forced upon anyone though, that's where it becomes wrong, if it's forced on men or women, but it's not it's a choice, you agree or you don't. Telling me I'm 'wrong' for having a preference... are you paying for my two for twenty?

 

Half of Hollywood and the US governments out there raping women, but THIS is the big issue that's going to take down woman kind? Nah.

 

Good grief y'all are acting like there's a war on men cause somewhere in the world tonight a woman's getting her loaded nachos paid for.

[katrina1980]

Not sexist because it is you applying your preference to. your choice of man. It would be sexist if you thought this dominance is the definition of masculinity, or that all men should be this way.

 

I like this in a man as well, but its tricky for sure. I like decisive people in general, for whatever purpose. I get fruatrated when people hem and haw, or cater to me. I know what I want. If I cede control its because I want to learn from you, about you, or receive the gift of your efforts. my gfs and I do this for each other too.

 

I agree with this^, and yes it can be tricky to navigate for sure. As figureitout said, the lines are often blurred.

 

I am not gender stereotyping; as I contend there are "women" who are dominant in the bedroom too and men who enjoy 'that'

 

Which, if works for them as a couple, is awesome. Her being dominant in the bedroom doesn't make her any less feminine or him less masculine. It's just their preference, sexually.

 

I also prefer a man who is emotional, sensitive and vulnerable. Qualities typically not associated with masculine.

 

But yet to me he IS masculine which is based on a combination of different qualities, some "alpha" some "beta" - terms I'm using for lack of a better way to describe all that makes him who he is "to me," qualities that attracted me.

 

Same for him. I have many qualities that are typically feminine, but I am also very independent, have my own thoughts and opinions, not afraid to assert myself, etc.

 

Yet I do prefer him to pay for "first few dates," and to be dominant in the bedroom.

 

As our relationship evolves. and the more I respect and admire who he is, and trust develops, I might become a bit less independent and may even defer to him on many things too. It depends.

 

Not because he is a particulate gender, per se, but because of the way I feel about HIM, as a person, a human being. And how well we connect as a couple.

 

I know what you're saying itsallgrand, but it's not the case for me personally.

 

It not a black and white issue, lots of different nuances to consider, as with everything else in life.

[journeynow]

Because I find it awkward to go through the bill that way and often appetizers and desserts are shared. whenever a man took me to an expensive restaurant, I ordered inexpensively but sometimes he insisted on ordering an expensive appetizer or bottle of wine (and I would explain that I would drink maybe 3/4 of a glass, that's it).

Sounds like it is awkward either way for you, Batya. When you split it 50/50 you thought the guy rude since he chose a pricey place. In any event, sounds like these dates you mention showed you two were either mismatches, or needed to find a way to communicate. I think you've said you dated a lot, so that could be a factor.

[Clio]

OP, based on the sequence of events you described, there is no way to determine why he acted the way he did. Placing your credit card on the table was a pretty strong move indicating that you were determined to pay. Him not speaking while searching for his wallet could just be about him not being good at spreading his attention out to two different directions. It sounds like you are jumping into conclusions prematurely.

 

As for the "who should pay" discussion, I think that different people are entitled to have different opinions. It's a preference, largely influenced imo by who raised us and how. At the end of the day, it's another way to determine "belief system" compatibility so it's all good.

[IAmFCA]

One of the most masculine and most talented lovers of my life can flip me to and fro but also likes an aggressive approach from a woman, and would be thrilled to be in a 3some with a man who is more in control than the others. its just an example... but illustrates that masculine and control are not necessarily relational.

 

This man is masculine in his look, he is bulky physically and he takes the initiative with me. If he were a woman, his other traits could transfer. The body and the way he thinks and moves and talks - masculine.

 

it occurs to me that he never lets me pay. Thats not masculine. its one of the ways he embraces me.

[Batya33]

Sounds like it is awkward either way for you, Batya. When you split it 50/50 you thought the guy rude since he chose a pricey place. In any event, sounds like these dates you mention showed you two were either mismatches, or needed to find a way to communicate. I think you've said you dated a lot, so that could be a factor.

 

Yes it's basically a numbers game. And no, splitting 50/50 is fine. It's not fine in the particular circumstance I described -and I described very specific circumstances. In those specific circumstances I don't think I needed to communicate any better than I did -there's nothing to communicate in a situation with a near stranger who is acting in an impolite or cheap way -I communicated with my actions by not seeing the person again in the case of the guy who presumed I was paying to "pamper" him. The guy who chose the expensive place only talked about himself and asked nothing about me. He emailed me the next day and wanted a critique of why I wouldn't go out with him again. He pleaded for it. So I told him (other than the paying part) -and a few years later he emailed me again to tell me that my critique helped him improve his dating life immensely lol).

 

The vast majority of the time it was not awkward. The majority of men paid and without fanfare -the bill came, the man paid, I thanked him -without any discussion -no big deal. I didn't ever insist on a fancy place, I never ordered expensively and I don't drink. If I met with someone who was unemployed or on a strict budget we did something inexpensive or free

 

Like mustlovedogs I offered if I knew I never wanted to see him again. If we went out a few more times, I'd offer to pay or take him out for dessert later or pay for the movie, etc. If he insisted on paying I'd often buy him a small gift like a book or CD he'd mentioned wanting.

 

I dated a great deal -hundreds of men. Most of the time I dated it was still "traditional" -from the early 1980s until 2005. Many of the men I dated in my mid 20s-late 30s were in the same or similar field to me which meant very often that they made a good salary as I did. A number of them would tell me that they enjoyed trying fancy/expensive restaurants on dates because many of them were romantic restaurants you really needed a date for so they didn't mind paying ("mind" -not said exactly like that but similar). My husband still tries to "pay" when we go out even though his credit card includes my $ in the account lol.

[willdation]

So you are really expecting a guy to pay for everything and all dates even if you have a full-time job with disposable income? Hmmm

 

I always offer to pay when I invite someone out on a date. However, when a girl says to me, "I would like to treat you...can I take you out for dinner?" I would let her pay...It's not rocket science and seems to work just fine....I never do the splitting 50/50 thing either....not a big deal...

 

I would personally just focus on having a good time and as long as both people overall contribute to having a nice relationship and reciprocate, then I see no issues...

[thealchemist]

Even stating what is masculine or feminine is sexist thinking...

 

Attributing characteristics to the sex that exemplifies(in your eyes) them has to be.

 

I prefer just alternating who pays with equivalentish restuarants.

 

If you want an imbalanced financial approach I just worry about what the guy thinks he deserves to compensate for it.

 

Most men that society considers "masculine" seem to be garbage in my eyes anyways.

[katrina1980]

Even stating what is masculine or feminine is sexist thinking...

 

Attributing characteristics to the sex that exemplifies(in your eyes) them has to be.

 

I prefer just alternating who pays with equivalentish restuarants.

 

If you want an imbalanced financial approach I just worry about what the guy thinks he deserves to compensate for it.

 

 

LOL, well no need to "worry" about the men I date and have relationships wth, they feel no "imbalance" when they treat on the first few dates. Or ever.

 

It's their pleasure to treat, they've told me. And I give back in my own way that demonstrates 'my' interest.

 

After those precarious early dates, we alternate as you do.

 

Neither is keeping track though, or keeping a "log" of who paid what last time, your turn etc. it's all very natural.

 

It works.

 

To the guys who prefer or expect a woman to offer to pay her share on the first, second date?

 

Keep in mind what mustlovedogs posted a few pages back.

 

She offers to pay when NOT interested. When interested, she doesn't!

 

So there you go, your call. Have fun.

 

Whatever works.

[Batya33]

So you are really expecting a guy to pay for everything and all dates even if you have a full-time job with disposable income? Hmmm

 

I always offer to pay when I invite someone out on a date. However, when a girl says to me, "I would like to treat you...can I take you out for dinner?" I would let her pay...It's not rocket science and seems to work just fine....I never do the splitting 50/50 thing either....not a big deal...

 

I would personally just focus on having a good time and as long as both people overall contribute to having a nice relationship and reciprocate, then I see no issues...

 

No, I don't. Ever - if that was a response to me that's really surprising that you took that from what I wrote. And if I didn't have a full time job or disposable income it wouldn't make a difference other than if the expectation was that I pay or chip in I'd have to choose activities I could afford. When I dated as a full time student living at home that is what we did -when neither of us really had money I think we took turns or did free/inexpensive stuff. I don't think having no money entitles someone to be treated. I do think in traditional dating the man typically paid especially on the first few dates.

 

Having a good time is a great thing to focus on. I did not have a good time with people who acted in a cheap or rude way -like the man who insisted he wasn't hungry and wouldn't be taking me out for a meal, then ate half my sandwich and didn't even offer to chip in when I picked up the check (which I'd told him in advance I'd pay for "I'm hungry so I am going to order something but I will pay for my meal") Could you really eat half of someone's meal and not offer to even leave the tip? Just not how I was raised, whether date or platonic outing.