Being able to be yourself in dating? Paying during dates?

[Tinydance]

I hate this - I always offer to pay, and nine times out of ten they bloody let me, telling themselves they're feminists rather than tight arses. I've even paid for food when I didn't eat at all and they let me! Money isn't an issue, but I find lack of basic generosity deeply unattractive. (In fact I didn't find him attractive - I just felt I needed to be polite. He probably thought I thought he was amazing, seeing as paying for food was such a big deal to him).

 

My ideal is that we both INSIST on offering to pay and there's an awkward stalemate ended by 'I'll get the next one'. But all the books like The Rules will tell you that if a man is interested in you he WANTS to pay for you...that you'll kill his interest and seem too keen if you offer to pay.

 

Yeah but the thing is how can a woman not offer to pay? I personally think it's rude to do nothing. I guess I do think it's really nice and gentlemanly if a guy doesn't let me pay but they may have gone on dates with many women and nothing came of it so they're just concerned about spending their money on nothing. I think especially in this day and age of online dating, when you go on a first date it's a total stranger. I think maybe it's a bit different if you already knew them from work or from a party or friends or whatever, then at least you'd know they had *some* interest. Most people I went on a date with from online I never saw again.

[Brokenheart99]

Sportster - yeah that's true about the expectation thing. Somehow because he paid for a nice dinner or whatever, I inherently feel obligated to kiss him or something. I mean, I never do what I don't want to, but yeah I can see that mentality. And then I feel even more guilty turning him down if I wasn't feeling it and he paid. But I don't know, I can't help it, I get slightly put off when the guy doesn't pay. Not enough to stop seeing him, but a little put off

 

Jman - lol at the generous comment, that's actually so true hahah. I do feel like I'm being considerate hahah. I never thought of It the way you said it. That's hilarious.

 

But I mean all this discussion about gender roles changing and confusion about how to pay. And I call bluff, because there is a simple test. Because when the bill comes, the waiter/waitress almost always brings it to the table closest to the guy or hands it to the guy. Guess rules haven't changed that much huh because even the waiters still thing guys should pay hahah. I'm kidding but you get the idea..

[Wiseman2]

I couldn't agree with this more. Absolutely!

I offer. I believe chivalry and equality are not mutually exclusive. I also expect women to be straightforward.

[Tinydance]

Well problem is, 50 years ago, if a guy asked out a woman on a date, let's face it, he most likely already knew her well or at least somewhat knew her. The only places you could know people were from your friends or family, university, work, coffee shop....Somewhere in real life where you were probably spending time with them or you at least spoke to them in person a bit first. So when the men paid, they had a good idea that they were intetested/somewhat interested in the woman, and vice versa she in them. These days there is a lot of online dating or meeting people in bars or night clubs and you go on a date with them you actually have no idea who they are at all basically. So I can see the reluctance of spending your money on a stranger lol

[Batya33]

Well problem is, 50 years ago, if a guy asked out a woman on a date, let's face it, he most likely already knew her well or at least somewhat knew her. The only places you could know people were from your friends or family, university, work, coffee shop....Somewhere in real life where you were probably spending time with them or you at least spoke to them in person a bit first. So when the men paid, they had a good idea that they were intetested/somewhat interested in the woman, and vice versa she in them. These days there is a lot of online dating or meeting people in bars or night clubs and you go on a date with them you actually have no idea who they are at all basically. So I can see the reluctance of spending your money on a stranger lol

 

There also was a lot of blind dating/set ups and it was expected that the man would pay (not saying that was a good thing, just sharing the reality of it)

[Batya33]

Also I think it's fair if you're not interested in a guy on the first date that you don't actually let him pay for you if you don't want to see him again. One guy invited me to a wine and cheese bar for a first date from a dating web site. I agreed but I didn't realise how expensive the place was. I found the guy very arrogant and felt no connection but he said he was going to the bathroom and when he returned it turned out he paid the whole bill, which was $80! I felt really guilty because I didn't want to see him again, so I gave him $40. It was very awkward but at least I left there with a clear conscience lol

 

Definitely and I have done the same.

[Brokenheart99]

Yeah I agree, if I'm definitely not interested, I always forcefully try and insist to split the bill. But that's kinda why I try and keep first dates kind of at cheaper places so it's not a burden on either me or the guy.

 

What about when you go to a restaurant? How do you feel about letting guys order for you? Like not that they pick out your food for you but I mean that you will discuss with him what you want and when the waiter comes around, the guy will tell the waiter your order for you? I know it's small, but sometimes I find it(with some smooth guys) so sweet and protected. Like I feel like they're such a dude who can take care of me and take charge. But Idk do some women find that abrasive or Unempowering?

[Wiseman2]

Who cares in the grand scheme of things? Being gracious means not making people uncomfortable and just going with the flow. If a guy is trying to impress you with some old school charm, so what?

What about when you go to a restaurant? How do you feel about letting guys order for you? and when the waiter comes around, the guy will tell the waiter your order for you?

[Batya33]

What about when you go to a restaurant? How do you feel about letting guys order for you? Like not that they pick out your food for you but I mean that you will discuss with him what you want and when the waiter comes around, the guy will tell the waiter your order for you? I know it's small, but sometimes I find it(with some smooth guys) so sweet and protected. Like I feel like they're such a dude who can take care of me and take charge. But Idk do some women find that abrasive or Unempowering?

 

I think it's fine - and no need to overanalyze.

[Tinydance]

Yeah I agree, if I'm definitely not interested, I always forcefully try and insist to split the bill. But that's kinda why I try and keep first dates kind of at cheaper places so it's not a burden on either me or the guy.

 

What about when you go to a restaurant? How do you feel about letting guys order for you? Like not that they pick out your food for you but I mean that you will discuss with him what you want and when the waiter comes around, the guy will tell the waiter your order for you? I know it's small, but sometimes I find it(with some smooth guys) so sweet and protected. Like I feel like they're such a dude who can take care of me and take charge. But Idk do some women find that abrasive or Unempowering?

 

Well I don't mind if they order for me but to be honest don't care either way if they order for me or not....If I DIDN'T tell them what I want to order and they ordered for me then I would actually be pissed off lol

[Ms Darcy]

As far as being yourself - I don't know, I'm going to have to agree on keeping up with the dance for a bit and feel it out. If they open up or show more interest, you do too, etc. it just feels frustrating at times but I guess that's just how dating goes. The magic is made in your head anyway.

 

Paying on dates- I don't know, call me old fashioned or stuck up, but I kinda expect the guy to organize and pay for the first few dates. That's why I suggest something cheap for a first date or meet up, so it's not too much of a burden for a guy to pay. But if you are going to ask me out after that and suggest a place, then I don't know, I would prefer they pay. It makes a girl feel special I guess.

 

I try to look at a first meet/date as an important time to make a first impression. When I go out to dinner with my husband now, sometimes we both wear t-shirts and jeans. Just whatever's comfortable. In the beginning, we dressed up more. The difference to me is don't treat a first date like you are COMFORTABLE. Present well. Be nice and polite and interested. Try to be open to a new possibility. When you treat it as an adventure, it's less about "should I be myself" and more about "I'm excited to see what I uncover."

 

The who pays discussion is boring. It doesn't really matter in the long run who the heck paid on the first date. As time goes on you'll figure out how you both approach financial stuff and who paid on the first date isn't really a predictor.

[j.man]

It's honestly never crossed my mind to speak for my girlfriend if she was present to do so herself. Unless you were born in the 40s/50s and that's just what boys were raised to do, I really don't know why you would. Not sure I'd call it abrasive or "unempowering," but it does strike me as strange.

 

A lot of the old school / chivalrous stuff is based on feeling secure by being in control and being depended on. Young men today by and large don't have the excuse of having it ingrained in them while growing up to the point of it being pretty much a muscle reflex, so it stands to reason that today moreso than an era like the 50s, a guy who refuses to let a woman pay, orders for her, etc. is actually much more likely to be making a conscious effort to be in control. Now if you've got a more submissive personality and that's your kind of guy, you may well be in luck. But personally, I wouldn't bank on the dinner bill, speaking for you, and pulling your chair out to be the extent to which the guy is "old fashioned." But if that's where your heart is, I'd wish you the best of luck.

[Sportster2005]

Sportster - yeah that's true about the expectation thing. Somehow because he paid for a nice dinner or whatever, I inherently feel obligated to kiss him or something. I mean, I never do what I don't want to, but yeah I can see that mentality. And then I feel even more guilty turning him down if I wasn't feeling it and he paid. But I don't know, I can't help it, I get slightly put off when the guy doesn't pay. Not enough to stop seeing him, but a little put off

 

If a guy offers then say something like "Thank you, that is very kind of you". That puts the onus on him. In this scenario if he's offering, then he should really want to pay, and not grumble privately later. I think most men that offer to pay, want to pay. Keep it simple. I have no hard rules about it. I just try to avoid women that think because of 'tradition' they are entitled to a free meal. And I think guys should pay out of a true sense of generosity and chivalry, not an attempt to make a woman feel obligated.

 

 

I almost always offer to pay. But I don't insist. For reasons already stated. And I ask politely. I think the best way is to ask in a way that doesn't imply any power play or nonsense. I usually say "Do you mind if I get this?". Everybody wins. The question is polite and allow the woman to say exactly what she wants. Some will play a little. That's expected. They will say "Are you sure? you really don't have to". And I will reply "yes, I'm sure".

 

It comes down I don't mind paying but I'm not obligated, and you're not entitled.

 

Two adults that are respectful of one another,and can communicate what they desire, should be able to navigate this without any issue. The key is respect. Women aren't entitled to free meals. And men can't forcibly pay and ignore a woman's wish to pay her own.

 

I'm not suggesting you feel entitled. It's legitimate to like chivalry and authentic generosity.

[Brokenheart99]

Yeah i can agree with everything everyone said. Sportster I like your approach!! That's pretty upfront and normal and if I guy said that to me, I would be good either way if I paid or not. As far as the whole ordering thing, it's not a big deal to me haha. I was bringing it up because I went to a date once at a tapas style restaurant and we kind of just discussed what we wanted to eat(because it was kind of a share your food place) and when the waiter rolled around, my date kind of took charge and made the order. To be honest, I just thought it was super sexy haha. Not in a submissive way but it was cool to see him be confident etc. anyway thanks for all the input guys!

 

Lately, dating has just gotten to be so fun. I guess I go in with no expectations other than meeting new people and maybe learning some cool things from my dates stories or just having good conversation and food. It's helped me learn a lot about myself and learn new things. Sometimes dating can be so fun!

[journeynow]

50 years ago...

 

Weren't there 2 menus, back then? One with the prices given to the gent, one without prices given to the lady? Or is that a myth?

[boltnrun]

I used to date a guy who got INSULTED if I offered to pay. I mean, his feathers REALLY got ruffled. I finally asked him about it. I asked him "when I offer to pay, do you think I think you don't have the money or can't afford it or something?" And he admitted that was EXACTLY why he found it so insulting. He thought if I offered to pay it meant I thought he didn't have any money. And he was VERY big into making it clear he had plenty of money. He made it a point to tell me that his kids (all 4 of them) had $1,000 custom made snowboards. He just would NOT buy "off the shelf" for his kids! And he could AFFORD it! He said he never even thought to ask how much something cost before he bought it, but he sure liked to tell me how much it cost after!

 

I personally found it to be a huge turnoff. I ended up dumping him, partly because of his attitude toward money but also because he had a huge ego (because he was exceptionally good looking and liked to talk about all the women who were constantly hitting on him).

 

I don't judge a man's value by how much money he makes. I want a guy who makes an honest living. Period. And looks are subjective. That guy became ugly to me. Real quick.