The Ups and Downs of Loving a Commitment-Phobe

[lostlove76]

Well, hopefully you can understand how the people who gave you advice feel. It sure is easy when it's someone else, isn't it?

 

But I think giving others' advice helps you to see that your situation isn't really all that unique. It's unique to you, of course, but it's all been done before.

 

And that's why others offer help...because they've been there and done that and they know that the only way out is to do what's best for yourself, even if it hurts for a while.

 

Yes, I can see how you guys felt. It's definitely much much easier being on the outside looking in. Everything seems crystal clear, but for those in the situation, it's all muddled by emotions and love and poor self-esteem and all sorts of messy things.

 

It's really depressing to see that so many people go through similar heartbreaks. It makes it feel like the world is just full of selfish, horrible people. I know that there are a lot of good people too, obviously. But the selfish ones really really bother me, and I just don't understand why it's so common. It makes dating seem like not even worth it. Just sort of a hopeless endeavor.

 

I think it was you or reinventmyself on that other thread we've all been commenting on who said that unhealthy people aren't attracted to healthy. Of course it's been said before, but just putting it so simply like that, it really stuck with me. I wish I had screenshotted that post. It helps me understand why I choose the guys I do; and also why my ex is now with crazy trashy married girl. Even with all my issues, I'm probably tame by comparison.

[boltnrun]

Well, people don't post on here because their relationships are healthy and fulfilling! So if you base your view of people on what you read here it's going to be skewed.

 

I would say that a large percentage of bad relationships are bad because people are trying to force something that's clearly not meant to be. They just refuse to believe that they chose the wrong person. They're stuck on how things were in the beginning instead of how they currently are. Or they think just because they've been with someone for X amount of time, that means they're required to stay.

 

I think people would be more successful at finding happiness if they accept the facts and realize that, while it might hurt or be "hard", doing right by yourself is the only path to true and honest fulfillment.

[lostlove76]

Here's the post I was referring to. I'm pasting it here for myself and others, hope that's okay.

Reinventmyself said:

What makes someone go back to a toxic, co-dependent person time and time again? Especially after dating someone like me who is "normal" and non-toxic, loving and whom he said "is the total package".

 

Think of it this way. Happy well adjusted people cross the street when they see crazy coming.

They know the difference and know the signs.

 

Happy well adjusted people are not attracted to crazy.

Unhealthy people with unhealthy needs are attracted to otherwise unhealthy.

 

You want to know how healthy you are?. . .just look at the company you keep.

[lostlove76]

They're stuck on how things were in the beginning instead of how they currently are.

 

So so so so true. It's really hard to let go of the beginning, because you just "know" that things can go back to that, if only this or only that.

 

I think people would be more successful at finding happiness if they accept the facts and realize that, while it might hurt or be "hard", doing right by yourself is the only path to true and honest fulfillment.

 

I just wish it didn't have to be so hard. Doing right by yourself shouldn't be so dang painful.

[boltnrun]

So so so so true. It's really hard to let go of the beginning, because you just "know" that things can go back to that, if only this or only that.

 

 

 

I just wish it didn't have to be so hard. Doing right by yourself shouldn't be so dang painful.

 

But that's the point I was making. Why wait until it gets "hard" to do right by yourself? Why keep holding on, hoping someone will "change" or "change back"? Like Maya Angelou said, when someone shows you who they truly are, believe them.

 

Do you know how many times I've fantasized that I'd told my horrible ex to pound sand two months in, instead of holding on for FOUR years??? That's the only thing that makes me furiously angry...that I put my hands over my ears and squeezed my eyes tightly shut shouting "nahnahnah", trying desperately to NOT see and hear what was right in front of me.

 

Whether we like it or not, we have to eventually face reality. Putting it off does nothing but make it more difficult when we finally have to do the right thing for ourselves.

[lostlove76]

I see your point, and I agree. And I hope to god that I will carry this lesson with me and never again get in the same painful situation. I don't even trust myself not to, because I'm so easily wooed. But I will do my best. I've learned so much here, from you guys, and I just hope that it sticks with me for the long haul. Maybe I'll trust myself more after I get completely out of this funk. I hate that I even question whether I would be strong enough to walk away early next time.

 

But you know what my problem is? I don't know if you faced this problem with your ex or not. I get attached very early on. And like we were saying, things are always good in the beginning. Well, not always - I've seen big huge red flags before getting attached with some guys in the past, and marched forward with it anyways. But with this last one, I was already so attached and hopeful by the time any warning signs arose. He said and did all the right things in the very beginning, and I wondered how I got so lucky.

[notalady]

But with this last one, I was already so attached and hopeful by the time any warning signs arose. He said and did all the right things in the very beginning, and I wondered how I got so lucky.

 

Im glad you're making improvements LL, but I don't buy this (the quoted). I'm pretty sure it's been said here before when you said how things were good at the start. Well from memory, he refused to even consider you dating for the first 9 months, he insisted you were just "friends" despite telling you he loves you, I'm guessing you slept together too. If that's not a big red flag I don't know what is. One of the dating red flags is clearly, if a guy doesn't clearly show he's interested in a serious relationship with you right from the start (say a month or two of dating), he's never going to be interested and you drop him like a hot potato, we tell people as much on this board. Let's not forget his alcoholism as well. So for you to say there was no red flags, I don't believe that. I think you really need to recalibrate your red flag detector if and when you start dating again so you don't fall into the same trap again.

[lostlove76]

Im glad you're making improvements LL, but I don't buy this (the quoted). I'm pretty sure it's been said here before when you said how things were good at the start. Well from memory, he refused to even consider you dating for the first 9 months, he insisted you were just "friends" despite telling you he loves you, I'm guessing you slept together too. If that's not a big red flag I don't know what is. One of the dating red flags is clearly, if a guy doesn't clearly show he's interested in a serious relationship with you right from the start (say a month or two of dating), he's never going to be interested and you drop him like a hot potato, we tell people as much on this board. Let's not forget his alcoholism as well. So for you to say there was no red flags, I don't believe that. I think you really need to recalibrate your red flag detector if and when you start dating again so you don't fall into the same trap again.

 

I agree with that last sentence for sure!! I really do need to do that. I guess the alcoholism should have been a red flag. I don't know what it is about me that I continually forget to even consider this a problem. Even when I'm listing all his problems, I leave that one off... not on purpose, but because it just doesn't occur to me. I don't know why.

 

As for the other stuff you said... The sleeping together was never an issue. It was never a FWB or booty call situation, ever. We usually just slept together in the same bed cuddling with no sex, because he has "problems" when he's that drunk. Which was totally fine with me. I would much rather sweetly cuddle and fall asleep together, and that's usually all it was. His ex told me he had problems with that with her as well, so I know it wasn't me - it was the alcohol.

 

But the "friend" thing, yes. He was acting like more than a friend. We were together all the time, he was sweet and affectionate, he did things for me, he said he loved me, we were only seeing each other, he texted all the time when we were apart (talking about the first 6 weeks here) then claimed we were just "friends." It threw me for a loop but I thought I asked too early. He said it 3 weeks in, and 6 weeks in. The other red flag was that he talked about moving away some day, almost from day 1. He brought it up often. So these were both signs of commitment-phobia, but I didn't know anything about CP at that point. These were ways of keeping me at arm's length. Again, I don't think it was about me. He's done the same in past relationships (which I also didn't know at that time, either). His ex later told me that every time he cheated, he would claim it wasn't cheating because they weren't "together." Yet they were living together! I mean c'mon. Ugh, it makes me so mad that he's this way, so I best quit rehashing it.

[lostlove76]

Since I'm here, I'll update on one major problem I'm still having. I have these really intrusive thoughts of him and trashy girl together - images of them being together. During the day, I can distract myself with other things. But at night when I'm trying to fall asleep, and in the morning the second I wake up, the thoughts are there. It's a real problem, because it's keeping me from falling asleep at night, and starting my day off bad in the morning. At night I read stories on here to distract myself until I can't hold my eyes open anymore, and then I turn my phone off. I'm like 2 seconds from drifting off at that point, and then the thoughts set in and keep me awake. Then in the morning, I wake up too early needing to use the bathroom or whatever, and I try to go back to sleep for an hour or two but can't, because the thoughts keep me awake. It's awful. I'm not getting enough sleep (and I have sleep problems anyhow, with or without this). I really did myself a disservice (obviously) by looking at all her pictures online and learning all about her, because I now have this very clear image of her in my head.

 

Any suggestions?

[boltnrun]

Um...what about the counseling you said a couple of weeks ago you were going to start?

 

I get that you procrastinate, but this is your emotional health we're talking about here. How much longer do you want to keep having these intrusive thoughts?

 

Also, are you still stalking the dating site and Facebook looking for clues?

 

You do know if you do absolutely nothing different, nothing will ever change.

 

Side note: How old is this allegedly trashy girl? I presume she's a teenager or young 20s since you call her a "girl".

[lostlove76]

Um...what about the counseling you said a couple of weeks ago you were going to start?

 

I get that you procrastinate, but this is your emotional health we're talking about here. How much longer do you want to keep having these intrusive thoughts?

 

Also, are you still stalking the dating site and Facebook looking for clues?

 

You do know if you do absolutely nothing different, nothing will ever change.

 

Side note: How old is this allegedly trashy girl? I presume she's a teenager or young 20s since you call her a "girl".

 

She's 38. I just call anyone my age or younger "girl" I guess. Dunno why! But she seems very immature, so she might as well be a teenager.

 

I made a vow to myself that I was going to stop looking at pages. I made it well over 24 hours without looking at all. And then I started looking again. Not as much as before - I've cut it down by a half or more. But I still look. And every time I go to look, I hold my breath and feel anxiety because I'm afraid of what I might see. So why do I keep looking?? I realize that it makes no sense. It's just so darn easy to just click and look, especially when I always have my laptop open or my phone in my hand. I keep clearing my browser histories, but that only makes it 0.001% more difficult to look again the next time. I guess I'm hoping to one day see that they're no longer together.

 

About the counseling... I don't know. I know I need to. But even just the thought of going seems so unappealing, since I'm such a homebody and hate getting out and about and trying to be on time for appointments and such. I like to stay home and keep my schedule clear and not involve myself with others very much. I know that's not a realistic way to live, but it's part of what's holding me back.

[boltnrun]

Well, you do realize that you're not going to feel any better if you do nothing, right?

 

See my signature line..."if you change nothing, nothing changes".

 

You are choosing to give yourself anxiety by stalking Facebook and the dating site. Why do you like to hurt yourself?

 

You seem nice, so I don't get why you feel the need to punish yourself so severely. What do you think you did to deserve all this self-punishment?

 

And you must realize "I don't like to leave home" is just an excuse, right? I mean, if he'd drove to your place and asked you to join him for dinner you would have, correct? Didn't you say you used to spend lots of time at his place? So, if it's important to you, you leave home, right?

 

Getting counseling and getting yourself emotionally healthy should be important to you. So, are you going to refuse to get help and risk feeling the way you do right now for the next 10 years, or do you want to get better?

[lostlove76]

Thanks Bolt. Those are all really good points. I don't know how to answer the question "What do you think you did to deserve all this self-punishment?" That's a pretty deep question, and there's probably something to that. The other half of it, though, is like I said: hoping to find some evidence that they're no longer together. I wouldn't/couldn't take him back, so maybe it would just be somehow validating that I'm not somehow lesser than, I don't know.

 

Maybe I'll talk to my mom about the counseling again. My parents would have to pay for it, which they have offered to do. My mom said she would look into it - I don't know what they can afford, so I will just let her look into it.

[boltnrun]

You've written so many negative things about this woman, so it doesn't make sense that you would think you're "lesser than" her.

 

Or...do you think her value increases because HE chose her??

 

If so, why? You know for a fact this man is a lying, cheating addict who refuses to commit to any woman and who runs away to avoid anything that might make him uncomfortable. So, why would this man choosing this woman make you feel "lesser than" her?

 

My ex chose someone who is a criminal, who has cheated in every relationship she's even been in, and who bragged about sleeping with over 70 men when she was in her very early 20s. She burned his house down and is a drug user and an alcoholic. And I sure as sh*t don't think I'm "lesser than" her! I just figured that dirty water finds it's own level. What makes me feel "lesser than" is that I thought I wanted to be with a man like him and that I thought I loved him. But that doesn't make me feel "lesser than" his girlfriend, it makes me feel "lesser than" who I know I really am. I'm angry that I stooped so low and that I was bottom-feeding instead of choosing a healthy, respectful man to be with. But that's (apparently) the level I felt I was back then. I don't feel that way anymore.

 

Counseling will help you get to the bottom of why you thought a man like him was the best you could do. And it will show you healthy ways to deal with any issues you have been dealing with even before he came along.

 

I encourage you to speak to your parents. I know I want my kids to be as healthy as they could be, and I would be happy to make sure they had the resources they needed to get there.

[lostlove76]

You've written so many negative things about this woman, so it doesn't make sense that you would think you're "lesser than" her.

Well, I know I'm not as hot as she is, and not as unique. Probably not as fun. Not as independent. He must like SOMETHING about her. But mostly it's because she's "pretty and hot" (his words). She IS a horrible person though, from what I can tell, so you make a good point.

 

Or...do you think her value increases because HE chose her??

THIS, I think. What a good point, wow. I've tried to think if any other guy I know would have chosen her. Would my brother? No. My good guy friend? No. Anyone with any bit of decency and class? No. And I've shown her pictures to several people who all say ew, she's not hot. I know this sounds so very petty, ugh, but oh well. Back to the point though - even knowing that no good guy I know would choose to be with her, I guess her value does somewhat increase simply because he chose her over me.

 

If so, why? You know for a fact this man is a lying, cheating addict who refuses to commit to any woman and who runs away to avoid anything that might make him uncomfortable. So, why would this man choosing this woman make you feel "lesser than" her?

He definitely is this way. But he's also extremely good-looking, and funny, and very smart, and well put-together, and comes from a good family, etc etc with all his good qualities. I still struggle a bit with that - seeing his good side vs. his bad side.

 

I just figured that dirty water finds it's own level.

I do keep trying to remind myself of this. That they're both cheaters who lack good morals, and so they belong together. Your view on your ex is very healthy!!! I hope I'll get to that point as well.

 

Counseling will help you get to the bottom of why you thought a man like him was the best you could do.

I hope so. I've been to counseling in the past, and they seemed to focus more on GETTING A JOB RIGHT AWAY (well, the last one I went to did). They didn't focus on the core issues that I really need and want to focus on. Crappy relationships have taken a huge toll on me in life, and I really need help with that. Yes, I need to be able to work full-time too, but I just don't understand why they can't let me pick the area of focus, ya know? I've butted heads with a few (or maybe all) of them about things like this.

 

Still, worth a shot.

[boltnrun]

My ex is (was?) good-looking, funny and very charismatic. He has this way of telling stories where he acts out each part and changes his voice and body language to mimic the people he's describing. It's hilarious. He also was talented at what he did (semi-pro athlete) and people are drawn to him.

 

BUT...NONE of that cancels out the fact that he's a lying, cheating addict who enjoys getting women to fall in love with him and then hurting them. He'd actually say hurtful things and then lean his head back to watch the woman cry. Then he'd turn away in disgust and tell her that she was a pathetic psycho. And this was done to women he claimed to love. But if any of them left him, he'd cry and act like he'd been horribly betrayed.

 

So no, I will never feel like I am "lesser than" than the woman he dumped me for. Because I know that, despite whatever it was that made me think I wanted him, I am a better person than either of them.

 

And I don't care about her looks. She is many, many years younger than me and may be considered "hot" by him, but I don't care. I will never compare myself to her and believe that I am lacking or that she's "better" in ANY way. Him either.

 

You sometimes have to search to find a counselor that works for you. The first one may not be the right one, but the right one WILL be of tremendous help.

[lostlove76]

How long did it take you to get to that point, and how did you do it? Are we talking years? Is this something you can just keep telling yourself over and over again (like the things you said in your above post) and you will eventually start to believe it? I'm asking that in terms of positive vs negative self-talk - just wondering if you did any of that to get you to this point (kept repeating it til you believed it), or if you had to go deeper. I want to be able to say the same things you're saying, and actually feel it to be the truth. Right now I could say it, but would only partially believe it.

[boltnrun]

I never, ever, EVER thought she was better than me. Not once.

 

I acknowledged that she is many years younger, and that he was (very obviously) attracted to her more than me...but I did NOT internalize any of that. I realized he felt he had a chance to have a very young girlfriend and he leaped at it.

 

So, it took...less than a minute?

 

See, even though something was profoundly wrong with me (obviously, since I thought I wanted him), it never reached the point of me thinking I was lacking in some way. It was more that he came along at a time where the previous guy I'd been dating for over a year and a half was pulling away and I felt kind of lost and lonely. And here he was, claiming he loved me and only me and that he wished he could get a chance to PROVE it to me!!! And I fell for it.

 

Plus, I missed my kids so much when they visited their dad on the weekends, and the relationship with him kept me distracted so that I didn't sit at home crying and missing them.

 

So many people told me I was dating below me, but I insisted he was the one I wanted. I lost a lot of friends over him, because they just couldn't understand why I allowed him to mistreat me so badly. They lost respect for me. I lost respect for me.

 

BUT...again, it never got to the point where I thought he chose her because she was better than me.

 

He recently (2 weeks ago) tried yet again to see me. Yet again, I ignored him. He's a loser, but he thinks for some reason that I still might want him. He hasn't grown up one bit, but I have.

[lostlove76]

I never, ever, EVER thought she was better than me. Not once.

 

I acknowledged that she is many years younger, and that he was (very obviously) attracted to her more than me...but I did NOT internalize any of that. I realized he felt he had a chance to have a very young girlfriend and he leaped at it.

 

So, it took...less than a minute?

 

See, even though something was profoundly wrong with me (obviously, since I thought I wanted him), it never reached the point of me thinking I was lacking in some way.

 

 

BUT...again, it never got to the point where I thought he chose her because she was better than me.

 

Ah, okay. So you started with a stronger sense of self, stronger self-esteem, than me it seems. I guess that's why I internalize it and you didn't.

 

I guess I must think HE's "better" than me, too, not just her... if just the fact that he chose her raises her value in my eyes. I've always had him on this pedestal that I can't seem to knock him off of, no matter how hard I try to focus on all his bad points. I hate to say this, but I find myself wondering if his good looks have a lot to do with this. He is so beautiful on the outside that it's hard to see beyond it. Of course, that's not why I loved him. He has an amazing personality, and he's super smart, and >. But he's just the most attractive person I've ever laid eyes on. That shouldn't matter, but somehow it does, and I don't know why it matters so much to me. I would like to think I'm not a shallow person.

 

It was more that he came along at a time where the previous guy I'd been dating for over a year and a half was pulling away and I felt kind of lost and lonely. And here he was, claiming he loved me and only me and that he wished he could get a chance to PROVE it to me!!! And I fell for it.

 

Plus, I missed my kids so much when they visited their dad on the weekends, and the relationship with him kept me distracted so that I didn't sit at home crying and missing them.

 

You were in a vulnerable place, and he wooed you and made you feel special. I totally get that. It would be a hard thing to resist!

 

He recently (2 weeks ago) tried yet again to see me. Yet again, I ignored him. He's a loser, but he thinks for some reason that I still might want him. He hasn't grown up one bit, but I have.

 

I think I asked you once if it makes you feel good when you get to ignore him, and you said no. But I'm glad he gets to see that you've grown and won't fall for his BS again. I hate the thought of people like this just skating by in life, getting everything they want.

[boltnrun]

Oh trust me, he does NOT see that I've grown.

 

He will just tell himself that I was just being a b*tch. And he'll try again. He tried this a few months ago, I ignored him, yet there he was, trying yet again. He is patently incapable of learning from his life experiences.

 

You do understand that there are other good looking men out there, right? Other smart men, men with personality. He doesn't own a patent on any of those things. But if he's relying on his looks, all that drinking will ruin that soon enough. My ex drank excessively and holy cow, he looks rough now. Gained a ton of weight and his face, OMG! Just wrinkled, the skin is a dull color and his lips have all but disappeared from years of smoking (pursing your lips around a cigarette constantly makes them get thin and wrinkly...ick).

 

And no, I don't "feel good" to ignore him because I don't care about him. I just bring him up as an illustration of how some people just aren't good for us, no matter if we once thought they were.

[lostlove76]

You do understand that there are other good looking men out there, right? Other smart men, men with personality. He doesn't own a patent on any of those things.

Maybe I feel like those kinds of men are outside my current dating pool. Which is why I REALLY need to work on improving my own self, I guess, if for no other reason than to widen my choices. I know that sounds so backwards and unhealthy and is not a good way to look at it. But it's true. If I want to date better, I have to be better, right? I have a long list of things I need to start improving about myself (so long that it's overwhelming, actually).

 

Your ex does seem like a total lost cause. I wish more than anything that I could see mine in the same way. I also hope to reach that point of indifference where I don't care about him, and didn't secretly wish he would call just so that I could reject/ignore him. I'm completely indifferent to every other guy in my past (other than feeling slightly disgusted at the thought of them), so I guess maybe one day it will happen!!

[boltnrun]

1) Counseling

2) Stop the internet stalking

3) #2 "easier said than done"? See #1.

 

And can you do me a favor? Every time you click on the dating site or Facebook to look at her page, or her husband's page, or your ex's page, I want you to tell yourself right before "I am deliberately choosing to hurt myself". Maybe if you say it out loud you'll see how you're being your own worst enemy.

 

There are enough people in the world who are capable of hurting us. Why would you choose to be one of them?

 

And yes, if you want to date healthy, intelligent, caring men you need to feel ready for them. Thinking your worth depends on some addict who chose to string you along and then ditch you for someone else is not the mindset that will allow you to be available to a good man.

[lostlove76]

Thanks so much, bolt

 

So I'll try that for sure, and I'll let you know in a couple of days how it goes. It'll take that long to get in the habit of it. Thanks so much for the suggestion!!

[boltnrun]

You've so far seen nothing concrete indicating they're living together (only assumed based on some vague things the woman posted), so I'm not sure what you think would indicate they "broke up".

 

And honestly...if she did post "Ex and I BROKE UP!", you'd be there hoping he calls you. Which he would, because he'd want you to make him feel better. And guess what? There you are, back again, because you won't want to "be mean" and ignore him when he's hurting so much!!!!! And there we go, with him proposing marriage and promising to come get you "next week", then going on the dating site and not calling for days at a time, then you'd start stalking her Facebook (still), checking the dating site (still)...that sounds like my idea of hell, TBH.

 

But yeah, do me a favor and try what I suggested, and see how it makes you feel to acknowledge that YOU are the one hurting yourself now, not him.

[lostlove76]

And honestly...if she did post "Ex and I BROKE UP!", you'd be there hoping he calls you. Which he would, because he'd want you to make him feel better. And guess what? There you are, back again, because you won't want to "be mean" and ignore him when he's hurting so much!!!!! And there we go, with him proposing marriage and promising to come get you "next week", then going on the dating site and not calling for days at a time, then you'd start stalking her Facebook (still), checking the dating site (still)...that sounds like my idea of hell, TBH.

 

LOL. You always make me laugh

 

I don't think I would start up with him again though. I just want the chance to reject him. At this point I wouldn't feel mean, I would feel it serves him right. I would like for him the feel what it feels like to be hurting (not in some horrible way, obviously - just emotionally, in the same way that he hurts others). But yeah, the Internet stalking would certainly carry on, or resume if I've managed to stop by the time he hypothetically calls one day.

 

She's posted pictures of herself (soooo many freaking pictures of herself, so vain it's ridiculous) standing on the porch of his building. And she's now "bff's" with one of the neighbors in his building. It just all fits that she's living there. Which hurts that he let her move in and not me, but I'm trying to quit dwelling on that.

 

Definitely going to try your suggestion. I do want to quit looking, because it really is hurting me.