The Ups and Downs of Loving a Commitment-Phobe

[lostlove76]

As I read your response I hear you taking all the blame for why he's gone again.

 

Hmmm. I don't mean to do that. Maybe what I'm doing is trying to feel like I had at least some control over the way things turned out. Or maybe I'm just looking at the facts. Everything I said happened did happen. I did do certain things. But I think I know in my heart that there was nothing at all I could have done to make him fully commit, so it doesn't really matter what I did or didn't do. Which makes me feel fundamentally unworthy (I know that's probably not true, but it's just how I feel).

[Silverbirch]

Hmmm. I don't mean to do that. Maybe what I'm doing is trying to feel like I had at least some control over the way things turned out. Or maybe I'm just looking at the facts. Everything I said happened did happen. I did do certain things. But I think I know in my heart that there was nothing at all I could have done to make him fully commit, so it doesn't really matter what I did or didn't do. Which makes me feel fundamentally unworthy (I know that's probably not true, but it's just how I feel).

 

I have done that over and over again. For me it's been because I have felt so desperate to MAKE the relationships work that I thought if I jumped over enough hoops to prove my worthiness, the relationship would work - so of course, when the relationships didn't work, I was left thinking that about myself for at least part of the time until I was able to move into acceptance that I had no real control over the situations and they could never work in ways that were healthy. Hugs.

[reinventmyself]

He was still on the dating site a ton and still calling me up until I finally answered and yelled at him, and then he quit doing both.

 

 

Here's an example (maybe not the best one) but the emphasis tends to be on the end result. -you did something that made him stop calling.

 

But you conveniently minimize the fact that he starts the problems - by being on a dating website for example.

 

Therefore he and his actions are the problem.

 

You set a responsible limit on what you will not tolerate and had a legitimate reaction to his bad behavior and you swing to - -

he stopped calling because you yelled.

 

It's as if you don't feel entitled to the hurt feelings. Your self worth doesn't permit you the luxury.

[browneyedgirl36]

Hmmm. I don't mean to do that. Maybe what I'm doing is trying to feel like I had at least some control over the way things turned out. Or maybe I'm just looking at the facts. Everything I said happened did happen. I did do certain things. But I think I know in my heart that there was nothing at all I could have done to make him fully commit, so it doesn't really matter what I did or didn't do. Which makes me feel fundamentally unworthy (I know that's probably not true, but it's just how I feel).

 

I'm sure the things you're saying happened DID happen, but...they are only part of the story. Remember, he did things -- and didn't do things -- that contributed to the situation as well. The way it sounds here, you're taking ALL the blame for something he clearly had a huge part in.

[lostlove76]

the choice of the phrase "coming to get me" suggests passively waiting for him to make a decision, rather than making the decision yourself -- whether it be to pack up and go to him OR to end things.

Interesting observation. My friend just said something similar to me - not about word choice, but about relationships being 2-way streets, and I could have gone to him (we hadn't talked for a long time, so all of this is new to her as I filled her in and she was trying to understand). Honestly, if I had felt 100% sure that he wanted me there, I would have gotten myself down there somehow. Even though I wanted to believe his words about wanting me there, I don't think I really did. So I felt like if he was the one who drove to come get me, then he was making a solid choice and I could be sure he wanted me there.

 

I think I said this earlier in the thread, but it's probably been forgotten. There was a time in February where the plan was for my parents to take me down there. He and I discussed this several times. He said to come on. The date was set. He kept agreeing. Then 3 or 4 days before I was supposed to go, I was worrying about him backing out, so I sent him a text asking for his address. He replied like 6 hours later that his room was just too small, where would I put all my clothes, what would I do for a job. So I went off on him for backing out and told him I never wanted to talk to him again. The next afternoon he texted "I'm sorry. Just come see what I mean and then decide." But the damage was done, I wasn't going. So he proceeded to call over and over for the next week until I finally answered, and I could tell he felt HORRIBLE about it. Like he was about to cry. He really did feel bad, and he thought I hated him, and he said he got cold feet. Eventually I forgave him and we slipped right back into talking about him coming to get me. I wasn't going to plan things again to go down there and get backed out on again.

 

And, your use of the word "trashy" to denote this other girl suggests something too: A need to convince yourself that he's making a huge mistake in "choosing" her over you.

Yeah, I think this is what I'm doing. I have nothing against her personally. She doesn't even know I exist. But it bothers me that he chose her over me (that's how it feels). And I'm being accurate when I call her trashy. Here she is leaving behind her husband and kids to run off and have fun, among other things. I don't want to put too many personal details about her here, more than I've already said. But what does it say about ME that he chose HER over ME, ya know?? I'm full of faults, no doubt, but we had something good. He even said I was perfect for him. Yet he's now (probably) with this girl who can barely type a sentence and shoots birds at the camera and all this other stuff. And it's all because she's hot. That's what bothers me I guess. She's waaaaaaay hotter than me; she has a flawless figure. So he threw away what we had because she's hot. Ugh.

 

None of this is a criticism of you; upon analyzing some of my own repeated refrains ("If only I'd done xyz" and "It was like he just took me and threw me to the curb like trash," etc.)

No worries, no offense taken. I appreciate the insight you're all giving me here. I've told myself that he threw me away like trash too, lol. That's what it feels like. And I used the phrase "threw away" in the above paragraph, too, and then realized after typing it.

 

I hope one day you will be able to look back and realize how hard you were on yourself, and needlessly so. He doesn't deserve a fraction of the credit you're giving him, and you don't deserve a fraction of the grief you're giving yourself.

Thank you

[lostlove76]

LostLove, it might be helpful to you to reflect on what it was about the nice guys that got on your nerves. Equally, if you reflect on what it was about the ones you felt a connection with. I think that might go some of the way in finding someone who you can connect with who is good for you.

 

I do need to do this. I felt no connection with the nice guys. I don't know if it was them specifically, or if it's because they were decent. I'd have to put some thought into that.

[lostlove76]

He was still on the dating site a ton and still calling me up until I finally answered and yelled at him, and then he quit doing both.

 

 

Here's an example (maybe not the best one) but the emphasis tends to be on the end result. -you did something that made him stop calling.

 

But you conveniently minimize the fact that he starts the problems - by being on a dating website for example.

 

Therefore he and his actions are the problem.

 

You set a responsible limit on what you will not tolerate and had a legitimate reaction to his bad behavior and you swing to - -

he stopped calling because you yelled.

 

It's as if you don't feel entitled to the hurt feelings. Your self worth doesn't permit you the luxury.

 

I think you're right with that last sentence. Maybe. I don't know. I always verbally took up for myself, all the time, and very assertively. But maybe I didn't really feel I had the right to be upset about anything. I think I've said this before, but it's like I feel like I don't have the "right" to ask for or expect full commitment (and certain things that go with that). Not sure why I feel that way. Maybe because I've been through soooooooo many guys who wouldn't commit that it feels like I must not be worthy enough or good enough for it or something. It makes me kind of sad that I feel that way. In the beginning with him, before I finally said either we're exclusive or nothing at all (and he did step up and make us exclusive btw), I felt I was "wrong" somehow to expect more, much less ask for it or demand it or whatever.

 

But back to why things ended. I still think I'm just trying to feel like I had some control over the matter, and I don't think I really did. He was going to do what he wanted to do regardless. He wanted things to continue on as they were. But who knows if he would have dropped me completely when (if) she moved there.

[lostlove76]

I'm sure the things you're saying happened DID happen, but...they are only part of the story. Remember, he did things -- and didn't do things -- that contributed to the situation as well. The way it sounds here, you're taking ALL the blame for something he clearly had a huge part in.

 

I guess it's not coming across this way, but I do blame him for most of it. I think he was HORRIBLE to me in so many ways. And he's the one who wouldn't fully commit. But I feel like I'm the one who completely ended us talking. BUT, as I guess you guys are saying, it's what HE did that caused me to do that.

[reinventmyself]

I guess it's not coming across this way, but I do blame him for most of it. I think he was HORRIBLE to me in so many ways. And he's the one who wouldn't fully commit. But I feel like I'm the one who completely ended us talking. BUT, as I guess you guys are saying, it's what HE did that caused me to do that.

Bingo!! . . .

[lostlove76]

Hello all. I think my updating is starting to dwindle off a little because I've vented everything I could possibly vent and analyzed everything I could analyze and asked every question I can think to ask. I'm still pretty much in the same place at the moment. Still having all-day thoughts of him with her and periodically feeling like crying because of it. I'm still looking at hers and his pages. Still looking for clues about how close they actually are, the state of her marriage, etc. Still hating on her for being a trashy s l u t (I swear she is, you would all think so too if you saw), and still hating on him for stooping so low instead of keeping the good thing we had, and still hating on myself a little for not being hot enough or exciting enough or whatever the reason is that he chose her over me. Still trying to convince myself that it wouldn't have worked out anyhow, since he simply will not commit or be consistent. So not much is new! Except that maybe I'm diving further and further into acceptance. Won't lie, though, still reading rebound threads and other such things and looking for tiny bits of hope.

 

So really there is just nothing new to say at the moment. I think that slowly it will just feel less and less awful, and eventually I'll reach the point of having enough energy to put into practice some of the things you all have suggested.

 

So that's my (non)update. I'll check back in if I reach a new level, or to respond if anyone comments, or if anything new happens.

 

Hugs to all.

[Silverbirch]

I do need to do this. I felt no connection with the nice guys. I don't know if it was them specifically, or if it's because they were decent. I'd have to put some thought into that.

 

I'm trying to really work this out for myself too. I'm certain that with one of the men, there was a huge physical attraction - but this is sort of odd because when I first met him, I didn't think he was attractive. He did change his appearance a bit and began dressing a bit better, but at first, he seemed goofed and nerdy. His demeanour - the way he stands and holds himself has changed since he has known me. He looks a lot more confident. That's odd too because ALL of the men I have been involved with got a lot more confident later on after being with me.

[Silverbirch]

^^^ I'm talking about guys who turned out to be arrogant.

 

Strange thing is that some of the nice guys were attractive. Maybe part of me felt Ai wasn't good enough or didn't deserve them. I'm not sure.

[Silverbirch]

I think that maybe in different ways with each, I thought they needed to be taken care of in some way. Some of them had really crapoy upbringing, and I thought I could bring them happiness. . . Failed at that.

[lostlove76]

I'm trying to really work this out for myself too. I'm certain that with one of the men, there was a huge physical attraction - but this is sort of odd because when I first met him, I didn't think he was attractive. He did change his appearance a bit and began dressing a bit better, but at first, he seemed goofed and nerdy. His demeanour - the way he stands and holds himself has changed since he has known me. He looks a lot more confident. That's odd too because ALL of the men I have been involved with got a lot more confident later on after being with me.

 

Maybe you make them feel good about themselves. Or maybe they need to be with someone in order to feel confident and "good enough." I know I felt more confident and attractive when I was with him, because I felt wanted and accepted. Same with past guys, really - I just felt more confident knowing someone wanted me and was attracted. Right now I feel like a giant slob lol (I'm slightly exaggerating, but not completely). I feel a lot less confident than I did when I was with him. Maybe that's what was going on with your guys!

[lostlove76]

^^^ I'm talking about guys who turned out to be arrogant.

 

Strange thing is that some of the nice guys were attractive. Maybe part of me felt Ai wasn't good enough or didn't deserve them. I'm not sure.

 

Oh, I read this after replying to your previous post. So by confident you meant arrogant?

 

I can somewhat relate to your last paragraph. I can find nice guys attractive, but a bit of a bad boy edge or tiny bit of arrogance (not over the top arrogance, can't stand that; or false arrogance that masks insecurity, can't stand that either!) ups the attraction level X 100. Unfortunately!!!

 

You could be right that you don't feel deserving or good enough. I don't feel that way about guys who are simply "nice," but I do about guys who have their s h i t together, since I myself don't.

 

On a similar note: This is completely contrary to what everyone here has been saying, but my mom thinks my ex guy actually respects me and didn't want to bring me into his situation (tiny room, no money, drinking all the time). He even told me exactly that - said he hated to bring me there, because I'm good, and it's easy to get sucked in to the drinking lifestyle. I took it as a lame excuse, like whatever. But that's why my mom thinks, and maybe she's right. Whereas he just doesn't care with trashy chick, because she stays wasted all the time as well, s l u t t y, can't be too good of a person seeing as how she's leaving her family behind to run off and be free and have fun. My ex thinks he's a horrible person, so maybe he feels more comfortable with someone who is more like him. I'm not saying this to make myself feel better, because it really does NOT make me feel better in any way shape or form. Just telling what my mom said, because it kind of goes along with what you were saying about maybe feeling undeserving of "nice" guys. (However, I'm in no way saying you don't deserve them, or that you're lesser than, or that you're anything at all like trashy chick or my ex! But we feel certain ways about ourselves that aren't always accurate).

[lostlove76]

I think that maybe in different ways with each, I thought they needed to be taken care of in some way. Some of them had really crapoy upbringing, and I thought I could bring them happiness. . . Failed at that.

 

I can relate to this too! There's just something appealing about the guys who have been hurt or had a rough upbringing or whatever the case may be. It brings out our nurturing side. I felt very nurturing towards mine. I loved to build him up and make him feel loved and special and good about himself, because he needed that. I kept it very limited, because I didn't want to be motherly or make him feel like he was on a pedestal or make myself seem enamored with him. I doled it out in just the right amount. But I could have happily done it all day long. It feels good to make someone you love feel good.

 

The challenge of it all is also appealing.

 

And it's highly attractive, seeing a strong tough man show his vulnerable side. God, it's attractive. Sigh.

[Silverbirch]

LL, I think it is highly probable that the involvement with this woman is in part related to them both being alcoholics.

 

i think that the men I have been involved with felt "safe" with me. When I have loved someone in the past, I really LOVE them. I would say the men became more confident in most ways - about themselves and their appearances. There is likely some truth in what you say about some people becoming more physically attractive when they have a partner. When I was first with my ex G, and I admit I made some effort to look my best, strangers as well as people I knew would tell me I was beautiful. Of course, that was close to 10 years ago so im almost 10 years older.

[lostlove76]

i think that the men I have been involved with felt "safe" with me. When I have loved someone in the past, I really LOVE them. I would say the men became more confident in most ways - about themselves and their appearances. There is likely some truth in what you say about some people becoming more physically attractive when they have a partner. When I was first with my ex G, and I admit I made some effort to look my best, strangers as well as people I knew would tell me I was beautiful. Of course, that was close to 10 years ago so im almost 10 years older.

I'm sure you're still beautiful

 

LL, I think it is highly probable that the involvement with this woman is in part related to them both being alcoholics.

Probably so. In many of her facebook posts/rantings, she often appeared to be wasted at 10am, noon, any time really. And he drinks whenever he's not at work. So I guess they're the perfect fit.

 

When he lived here, he usually didn't start drinking until late evening, with a few exceptions. Of course I only saw him every other day, so I don't know what he did on the odd days. Since he moved there, it's literally all the time. And now he has someone to stay wasted with, yay for him.

[Silverbirch]

Definitely sounds like they are both alcoholics.

 

I would say that for sure beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Ll! There is a younger man I know, a friend, and he has made it clear he would like LTR with me, and he thinks I'm beautiful - or else he is a good liar - but I don't think so from his actions. It's my ex's birthday today. I'm not going to see him of course although I was invited. . . But it wasn't a very enticing invitation.

[lostlove76]

Definitely sounds like they are both alcoholics.

 

I would say that for sure beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

True! I've shown about 4 people pictures of trashy girl and they all said yuck, and that she's not hot. They weren't just saying it for my benefit. They really don't find her at all attractive. I can see her attractiveness, but I don't know if it's just because I know he thinks she's hot and pretty so I'm seeing it through a filter. She really does have a flawless figure. Ugh, whatever. I need to quit obsessing over her.

 

Ll! There is a younger man I know, a friend, and he has made it clear he would like LTR with me, and he thinks I'm beautiful - or else he is a good liar - but I don't think so from his actions. It's my ex's birthday today. I'm not going to see him of course although I was invited. . . But it wasn't a very enticing invitation.

I wouldn't go either if I were you. The younger friend sounds good! Are you interested/attracted?

[Silverbirch]

I don't feel physically attracted to anyone right now, but I know I am very, very comfortable in this guys company and that we have a lot in common. He doesn't seem that he would be a lot of work/high maintenance as all my exes have, and he would do anything he could to help me out if I was in bother. Recently, my mother was very ill and I had to fly interstate at short notice to be with her. He was wonderful. My flight left 6am almost an hours drive from her, and he insisted on driving me to airport, was there when I got back, went to my pets twice a day. He even built a pet door at the back of my house as he knew I was worried about them being outside. When I arrived home, there were a dozen red roses in my kitchen (and a dozen white ones a few days later)and he had detailed my car! He's an easy person to be around - doesn't seem demanding at all. I have shared a hug with him once - when I was leaving to see my mother - and it was like hugging a big ole favourite teddy bear. Certainly not the Sparks I used to feel with my ex, but my ex didn't treat me well a lot of the time. He had never bought me s birthday present over the 4 or 5 birthdays, let alone get me flowers. Once my car broke down at night, and he wouldn't come and help me. That was so demeaning. The "sparks" are not so important to be anymore, but I have been burnt and hurt so many times in relationships with men that I'm taking time before I will get involved with anyone, but I do think that when I am healed, there is a possibility that I will have a different type of relationship with this friend.

[lostlove76]

Aww, that all sounds so wonderful, and he sounds like a very kind and sweet and truly decent man. I hope it does one day turn into more, as he seems really good for you. I understand about the lack of sparks though. Just take your time like you've been doing. It sounds like you're on the right path.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks LostLove. So far, he does seem like a really nice guy. We also were brought up in the same faith (although neither of us chooses to practice), had the same type of education, and our families live 2 states away within half an hour of each other. Both of us are very interested in vintage style collectibles, FIAT cars and there's just this type of comfortable familiarity I can't recall having with anyone else. His company has not brought me the stress or sadness of others, but still getting to know him and healing from the others. He said to me that he is prepared to wait and very patient - because I'm worth it.

[browneyedgirl36]

Thanks LostLove. So far, he does seem like a really nice guy. We also were brought up in the same faith (although neither of us chooses to practice), had the same type of education, and our families live 2 states away within half an hour of each other. Both of us are very interested in vintage style collectibles, FIAT cars and there's just this type of comfortable familiarity I can't recall having with anyone else. His company has not brought me the stress or sadness of others, but still getting to know him and healing from the others. He said to me that he is prepared to wait and very patient - because I'm worth it.

 

This sounds great -- and a lot like me and my current boyfriend. We took things VERY slowly. At first, very early on, I was a tad worried because I didn't feel like I was "infatuated" with him like I had been with my ex. I wondered, briefly, if that meant something. I found him attractive, with a GREAT personality, sense of humor, and intelligence, but I wasn't obsessed with thoughts of him 24/7, so I was worried that something was *wrong*. Well, what was *wrong* was actually something very RIGHT -- over time, we developed a deep connection, learned that we have almost identical values and many shared interests, complementary temperaments, etc. Looking back, I'm SO glad we didn't jump right in (i.e. sex right away, seeing each other constantly, etc). I realized that all those "butterflies" and obsessive thoughts I had about my ex (and a few other guys), were just superficial things. And, I realized the more sparks and over-the-top romance movie stuff that happened right away, the worse a guy was for me! (Like my ex saying, "I can see myself spending the rest of my life with you" on the third date (he dumped me for the first time not long after that, and it was the first of quite a few times he withdrew from me).

 

I like your approach, Silverbirch; this guy sounds like he may be a keeper, but you're keeping a cool head and letting things unfold slowly. Time will tell, but it seems very promising!

[browneyedgirl36]

Aww, that all sounds so wonderful, and he sounds like a very kind and sweet and truly decent man. I hope it does one day turn into more, as he seems really good for you. I understand about the lack of sparks though. Just take your time like you've been doing. It sounds like you're on the right path.

 

I have an acquaintance who is a relationship advice columnist, and she actually wrote a column about the whole "sparks" thing. She said that, often, intense feelings of attraction/"sparks" right away are a bad sign -- a sign of an impending toxic relationship. She explains it way better than I do, but she says that these intense feelings about someone we've just met are usually tied to past hurt, rejection, trauma, etc. The longer I live, and the more I experience, I am inclined to believe it.

 

When I was hung up on my ex -- who, by outward appearances is dynamic, charismatic, interesting, charming (and yes, physically attractive) -- someone like my current boyfriend wouldn't have registered on my radar because, while he's handsome, very intelligent, kind and generous, and hilariously funny (just to mention a few of his great qualities) he's a much more low-key, fly-under-the-radar presence; he's got a calm way about him; he's not loud or boisterous (like my ex was), doesn't need to be the center of attention and of every conversation (like my ex did/does). At the time I was on-off with my ex, my self-worth was in the basement, and I had him on SUCH a pedestal, but now, I don't find him attractive at all, and, honestly, I think he's....a phony. I realized that all of his positive traits are things that, ultimately, are superficial. Charisma, charm, a dynamic presence -- all can be crafted, can be "put on." My current boyfriend is EXACTLY the opposite -- not a thing phony/superficial about him. Very real, genuine. Everyone says so. A few years ago, blinded by my ex's "show," I would have missed a really great guy. Now, at last, I'm healthy enough to know a good thing when I see it -- finally!