The Ups and Downs of Loving a Commitment-Phobe

[boltnrun]

What does all of your obsessing change? How does it make things better? Why do you want to inflict pain upon yourself?

 

I can't help but think you don't like yourself very much. Why else would you choose to punish yourself?

 

And why do you have to give yourself "permission" to not think about him? What is it about NOT thinking about him that makes you think you'd be punished for it?

 

Maybe you can't immediately stop your thought processes, but you CAN stop the dating site stalking. Yet, you refuse. I really don't understand, do you think him signing on proves he loves you or something?

 

I used to do self-damaging things too. I drove by my ex's house in the mornings before work for a while, until one of my friends asked me WHY? She asked me if I thought if his new girlfriend's car wasn't there it meant he still loved me. And although that question hurt, she was 100% right. I DID believe if her car wasn't there it meant something had gone wrong with them and he'd come running back to me!!! So lame, and dumb of me to think that way.

 

I only got better once I realized he DIDN'T love me and that wishing he did was pointless, because he was a liar and a cheater. And I don't want to attach myself to someone like that. I also only got better once I stopped the electronic stalking and driving by his house. The focus HAD to stop being on him because that kept me stuck. Thank my higher power that I am no longer enslaved to the thought that I need him to love me in order to feel good about myself. I now consider it a compliment that he DOESN'T love me...because who wants the "love" of someone like him???

[lostlove76]

So see, you do understand because you did it too. I can TOTALLY see feeling like he loved you if his girlfriend's car wasn't there. I guess that's the kind of thing I'm looking for too, something similar. It's a hard thing to stop doing. You're able to look back on what you did with clarity, and I can hear you when you say these things, but yet I'm still stuck in the emotions of it all.

 

I'm really not backsliding when I say this, but no one here can be sure that he doesn't care at all and doesn't/didn't love me. That's just impossible for anyone else to know. While part of me feels like he just doesn't care, another part of me feels that he does. He did try calling for two and a half weeks, on his regular schedule. He did say he misses me. He did say he's in love with me last phone call. He had all these other women he could have turned to but he still kept calling. I guess he's stopped now. But if he cared nothing at all he just would've thought, okay bye, and been done.

 

I'm just not sure it's helpful for me to think he doesn't care and never cared and was using me the entire time and all these other things you guys are saying. I almost hate saying this out loud because I don't want any of you to think I'm unappreciative, and I KNOW that you all care very much and are really trying to help me, and I love you all for it. Just this one thing, though, I'm not sure is helping. Because it magnifies my depression by ten to think he just has zero care for me and never did. And I really in my heart AND head don't think that is true.

[lostlove76]

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm fussing or upset with anyone or being snippy at all, because I'm not. I'm just trying to nicely say that it makes me feel really bad to be told over and over that he doesn't care, and then I start believing it, and then I sink even further into depression. I'm sorry I just had to put this out there.

[thejigsup]

The Truth Shall Set You Free. A man who "loves" you would never move away without you. A man who loves you DOESN'T DATE OTHER WOMEN!!!! A man who loves you cares a whole lot about your feelings. A man who truly,truly, truly, loves you will NEVER do the things to you that this guys has. It's not about you! It's all about what HE wants, what HIS game is, what makes HIM happy. You don't matter to him except as a game piece. Checkmate for him. Game over.

[lostlove76]

But he loves me to HIS full capacity. That doesn't look like the love of other guys because he lacks empathy. But he loves/ed me as much as he was capable, and that is what matters to me right now. I couldn't stay with it because it wasn't enough. But it's not like he is capable of loving in a normal way and just didn't love ME that way. THAT is what makes me upset, to think of it like that, and it's just not true.

[annie24]

But he loves me to HIS full capacity. That doesn't look like the love of other guys because he lacks empathy. But he loves/ed me as much as he was capable, and that is what matters to me right now. I couldn't stay with it because it wasn't enough. But it's not like he is capable of loving in a normal way and just didn't love ME that way. THAT is what makes me upset, to think of it like that, and it's just not true.

 

well, his best isn't very good then, is it?

 

Have you blocked yet? I suggest you block. I'm saying this for your own good. What I don't want you to have happen is he puts up happy photos on Facebook with him and another woman, or he winds up getting engaged, and then you get super depressed about it.

[notalady]

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm fussing or upset with anyone or being snippy at all, because I'm not. I'm just trying to nicely say that it makes me feel really bad to be told over and over that he doesn't care, and then I start believing it, and then I sink even further into depression. I'm sorry I just had to put this out there.

 

You're still defending whether he cared about / loved you is because your self worth hangs on it. That's what needs to change. I don't think there's a point to arguing about whether he cared / loved you. Once you work on your self worth and improve it, you will realise on your own that he didn't care or love you in action and it doesn't matter what he felt or to what capacity he "loved" you. For now, probably best to focus on the here and now, which is, he treats you badly now, you need to stay gone.

[boltnrun]

I don't need to believe my ex loved me because how I feel about myself doesn't hinge on how he feels about me.

 

And that's what's keeping you stuck. HE gives you your identity; if he doesn't love you, you cease to exist. But that's just not true.

 

One thing that really helped me move on was a conversation I had with one of my ex's good friends. That good friend of his told me he used to respect me (when he first met me), but once he saw that my ex treated me horribly and yet I kept coming back for more, he lost all that respect. He thought of me as a pathetic joke. Does that sound harsh to you? Because I thanked him for saying that. It was so humiliating for me to know that people thought of me as a weak doormat with no self esteem. Geez, how embarrassing!!! I lost a lot of good friends too, because they couldn't understand why the heck I was so obsessed with that guy. They could see clearly that he was a loser, but I refused to see anything I didn't want to see.

 

And that's what we're all trying to help you with. But if you're determined to walk this path of obsession and pain and self-abuse, there isn't a thing any of us can write that will change your mind. If you absolutely NEED to believe this man loves you, we certainly will never be able to convince you that a man in love (never mind any limits you've assigned to him with regard to his "ability" to love) doesn't act like he does. His limited capacity to love has nothing to do with cheating while supposedly in an exclusive relationship with you. He may as well be given a license to cheat without any consequences because poor him, he's just so SCARED of his feelings! Nope, I'm not buying. Being "scared" and cheating have nothing to do with one another. But again, you seem to need to believe in the version of him you've created in your mind. And I believe your depressed feelings are because the fantasy you want to believe in is in direct opposition to reality. And somewhere inside you, you know it.

 

When you're ready, I hope you'll be willing to see clearly. Because seeing clearly can only help you. I know I felt incredibly empowered once I realized that my existence didn't hinge on this ONE MAN. Especially one man who couldn't be bothered to treat me decently.

[thejigsup]

I've never given a flip whether they had loved me, still loved me, or anything like that after they were gone. I mean, what's the point of that? Self torture? I'm not into pain and you should not be, either.

[Realitynut]

I believe your depressed feelings are because the fantasy you want to believe in is in direct opposition to reality. And somewhere inside you, you know it.

Well....no Sh*t! lol I was just SORT of depressed when I found out the fiance' was cheating on me...but I still had all that 'false hope' going on.

 

but I hit the depths of despair....when I realized he wasn't coming back.

 

Lost Love needs to realize...SHE'S NOT GOING BACK...no matter what he says.

 

Some people are stronger than others. LL is not one of the strong ones...and neither am I. That is why WE need to work on OURSELVES, first and foremost.

 

Like Bolt...or someone else said previous, that they lost respect for them, because of how they kept letting the bf treat them like dirt, it really resonated with me!

 

I'm sure everyone is thinking....BOY, she surely has low self-esteem to keep going back to THAT guy...and THAT kind of treatment. She must like being a doormat!

 

We are living with blinders on.

 

And I think the WHOLE POINT is....we're afraid there is nothing better out there. That CRUMBS are better than nothing. (I know you think that!) But until WE decide we are worth more than crumbs...that is all we will ever get.

 

Be strong. It will take a while...it really will. It won't take overnight...or a month. It might take a year...be on your own. Start dealing with your anxiety. Make a list of what you REALLY want in a man. Hopefully it won't be a man who just sits around and drinks and commiserates with you.....

 

But you get off your DUFF and DO THINGS! Life is for the living. Go live!!!

 

When you're 80 and you look back on your life...how do you want to see it?

[browneyedgirl36]

The crumbs are NEVER better than nothing, but I too have been in the position where I thought that was the case.

 

I remember asking myself, when I was going through a bunch of stuff: What do I want to be doing in a year? In two years? In five? Do I really want to be in this same place in my head? NO WAY. I always say, life is too short to waste it being miserable over some guy. But, by the same token, life can be very long, and who wants to be miserable for the next 40 or 50 years?

[reinventmyself]

I have been a few toxic relationships.

They have been controlling, abusive and mean. Gas lighting, neglectful, you name it. Everything but physically abusive.

 

Another area you seem to stuck on is him loving you.

I still believe to this day that my ex's truly loved me in some sort of capacity.

I loved them. I still have loving feelings for a couple of them, despite all the negative.

I also learned to know when to leave in spite of it all.

No one is all bad. I wish I had a dollar for every time I have said that here on this board.

 

I am now able to separate my emotions from logic. Purely emotionally based decisions, much like yours have been can be dangerous.

 

If you are able to set aside the emotions for a moment and think logically, I am pretty sure you can see that you need to end this.

When I read what you write I can see you swing back and forth between the two.

 

I think the challenge for you is to learn to navigate simultaneously logic and emotion and use the combination of the two to better make decisions.

 

I loved my ex's . . they loved me.

Love was never enough in the case of abuse and or neglect.

I had to learn to love myself more.

 

Came back to add: When I was younger I used to do the drive-by thing. The car being on the driveway meant something. The car being gone meant another. Until it dawned on me one day while on my way to do a drive-by that the car's presence or lack there of meant absolutely nothing . .and it didn't change the outcome either.

All that gas I wasted!! Da** So, the next couple times I found myself behind the wheel, I asked myself out loud `will whatever I find change the outcome?' `no' . .I turned around and never did another drive-by again.

 

The same can be said the logging onto the dating website. Whatever you find will not change the outcome!

[lostlove76]

Hey all. Thanks for the posts, I've read them. I'll write more later but just wanted to do a quick check-in for now. Still feeling incredibly depressed. He quit calling and quit getting on the dating site around the same time (end of last week) so I feel this means he's most likely found someone, whoever it may be. I haven't quit looking online yet, obviously, but I'm going to have to soon, because I don't want to see anything like Annie suggested could happen. That would just kill me all over again. I was reading articles last night about how exes act on Facebook, and came across something that said like 90% of people Facebook stalk their exes.

 

Maybe I do pin my self-worth on whether he loved/s me. I can't keep anyone from saying what they want to say, but I would sure appreciate it if people would quit telling me that he never did love me. It's not helpful, it puts me in defensive mode, it magnifies my depression. I think at this point I would rather just focus on the now. Can't promise I won't backslide, but I think it's doing me more harm than good to analyze how things used to be. I probably WILL slip up and start doing that again, but I'll try not to. Questioning the love, though, I can say does all harm and zero good. So I'm asking nicely, although I know I have no control over what you guys want to say.

 

I think it's clear at this point that he no longer loves me. He's finally forgotten me and has moved on. It's just the worst feeling. It's one thing when he's calling and I'm not answering but still have the option and I know that I'm on his mind. It's quite another when he's given up and probably found someone else and has forgotten all about me. That really DOES affect my self-esteem, to be forgotten so easily. I try to be logical about it and ask myself well what else could I expect? I wouldn't talk to him. I'm not down there. He was going to give up eventually. And I know that even if I hadn't quit talking to him, he still would have found someone else eventually. I maybe could have kept things going for a little while longer, but it wouldn't have mattered in the long run. And I HAD to quit talking to him after everything he's done. I can tell myself all that, and yet it still feels like I just wasn't good enough.

 

So that's where I am at the moment - hurt and depressed at the thought of him with someone new, and feeling like I wasn't good enough in whatever way to keep him.

[reinventmyself]

I am sorry LL.

Just know that everything you are feeling is normal.

You feel lost, unloved and sometimes unworthy.

It's pretty typical. . But in time it passes. If you can't trust anything - trust that you will not feel this way forever.

 

It's important that you grieve the ending of this relationship.

Break ups break you.

 

And. .just be prepared for him to call again . .which is extremely selfish on his part.

 

I dated someone last year. He still calls and texts once in a while.

I don't respond and not because I have any ill will towards him.

 

I just think it would be really selfish of me to give him any possibility of a mixed message.

The kindest thing I can do is not respond and hope he moves on to find someone better suited for him.

 

If I were call him up just to take him for a spin around the block and drop him off would be considered cruel. IMO

I am just not that self serving.

 

I wasn't good enough in whatever way to keep him.

ahh. . but don't you see? No one gets to keep him.

[reinventmyself]

I find it interesting that whenever there is an unknown. .such as your case.. .where you don't know what he's feeling or doing. .

It's a blank slate.

Why is it when we have a choice to fill in the blank (because we don't have the actual facts otherwise) we choose to fill it in with worse possible and hurtful scenario?

 

This is something we do to ourselves. If you think about it long enough, it's really the honest truth!

 

So in this moment. . when you don't have facts and you have a choice, why not fill it in with something that you can handle or tolerate?

Be kind to yourself!

[lostlove76]

Thanks reinventmyself

 

And. .just be prepared for him to call again . .which is extremely selfish on his part.

Yes, it would be selfish. I think it will be weeks from now or whenever something goes south with whoever he's now with.

 

I wasn't good enough in whatever way to keep him.

ahh. . but don't you see? No one gets to keep him.

I hope that's true. I'm just so afraid that he's going to change for someone else.

And even if they don't get to keep him long-term, even if it's just a few months, they're still getting the very best of him during that time while I get nothing of him anymore.

I have no idea who this person is that he's most likely seeing. He's so needy of attention that he wouldn't be staying off the dating site and not calling me if he didn't have someone. If it's trashy girl, then I'm sure he's just THRILLED to be seen with someone so hot and exciting. I can only imagine what this will do for his ego. And he'll fall in love with her, because he feels sorry for her, and he's attracted to her and infatuated. Doesn't matter if it's real love (it's too early to be real love isn't it?). He'll still think he's in love.

 

I just have to remember that he MOVED and there was no way for us to be together. In addition to alllllll the other bad things, the main thing that makes it impossible to be with him is that he's simply too far away, and he wasn't willing to change that.

[browneyedgirl36]

I am not going to tell you he never loved you. No one knows for sure but him what his actual feelings are/were.

 

My ex told me he loved me; he actually told me first -- and I didn't say it back right away, though he said he knew I loved him (that's how wary I was of him, and with good reason!) I'm not sure whether he ACTUALLY did or not -- but I can say for certain that, whatever his feelings were, they weren't enough to keep him with me, to sustain a healthy relationship. I honestly think he thought he did, and he wanted to, but his idea of love was and is vastly different from mine. I think this may be the case with your ex; he means what he says -- or thinks he does -- but doesn't have the same idea of love as you do. It's a compatibility thing, really.

 

Whatever the case, try to take your focus away from whether or not he ever did/does/ever will love you. You'll end up putting a lot of energy into a fruitless pursuit. He has a drinking problem, right? That already complicates any feelings he might have. Even without drinking, I'm pretty sure he has major issues preventing him from being in a healthy relationship, but the drinking just exacerbates things.

 

One thing my therapist did that really helped me was to work with me on re-framing my thoughts (because I was a master of negative thinking!)

 

For example: If I would say, "He never really loved me." I might say instead, "He couldn't love me in the way I needed him to." OR, if I would say "He didn't think I was good enough," I might change it to "He and I were not compatible for a long-term relationship" or "He wasn't the right person for me."

 

The therapist would have me write down my negative thoughts and then change them to more positive -- or at least neutral -- ones. It took a lot of practice, but I did it; now, I do it with SO many things -- not just relationship-related stuff. For example, if there was a particular thing I wanted at work but didn't get it and someone else did, I might say, instead of "They didn't think I was good enough," "They decided someone else was a better fit for that job; something else will come along for which I am better suited."

 

The thing is, these changes to your thinking aren't lies -- they're actually a lot closer to the truth than the things you're telling yourself now. The changes reflect a more objective way of thinking that isn't as colored by our past hurts, disappointments, our low self-esteem, etc. Actually, I read this great book by Pema Chodron, a Buddhist nun --I'm not Buddhist, but a friend, also not Buddhist, recommended it because she thought it would really help me, and it did. In the book, Chodron talks about thoughts, and how they really are just things we make up -- we create these narratives in our heads that aren't really based in reality, but rather in our past disappointments, hurts, rejections, and negative experiences. She even advises that, when one starts to go into a downward spiral of intrusive negative thoughts, to interrupt one's thoughts and say something like, "Right now, I'm just thinking. These are just thoughts I'm creating." It sounds weird, but really, it helps!

 

It's interesting to read your posts because you say a lot of the things I was saying back when I was going through stuff with my ex -- "He's already forgotten me," "He doesn't care anymore," "He probably has someone else," etc. The thing is, these are just things you're making up in your head -- they're a function of your not-so-positive feelings about yourself right now. I know it's hard to see that, but it's true.

 

Anyway, again, I understand what you're going through. I can't prevent you from going through it. I think you HAVE to to get past it and get on with your life. But, I want you to know that you CAN get past it, even if it doesn't seem so right now. It took me several years -- partly because my ex kept pursuing me off and on and I was vulnerable -- but I did, finally, to the point where I can even see him at work and it doesn't bother me at all.

[lostlove76]

I find it interesting that whenever there is an unknown. .such as your case.. .where you don't know what he's feeling or doing. .

It's a blank slate.

Why is it when we have a choice to fill in the blank (because we don't have the actual facts otherwise) we choose to fill it in with worse possible and hurtful scenario?

 

This is something we do to ourselves. If you think about it long enough, it's really the honest truth!

 

So in this moment. . when you don't have facts and you have a choice, why not fill it in with something that you can handle or tolerate?

Be kind to yourself!

 

So incredibly true!!! I've noticed the same thing with a couple of friends who were doing NC, and I told them that their minds were filling in the blanks to worst case scenario because they had a complete lack of information. So it's interesting that you point out that this is exactly what I'm doing.

 

But when I've tried to tell myself things like he cares but is giving up for such and such reason, etc etc, can't even remember specific examples right now... people here tell me that no he DOESN'T care, he's just using me, etc etc. Pretty much filling in the blanks to worst case scenario for me. And I hear it so much that I start to believe it, and it puts me in a hole to feel that way. Whereas if I had believed that hey, he really did love me but he has major issues that don't allow him to stay close, etc etc whatever, then maybe I could have handled the end of things a teeny tiny bit better. It's how we frame things that puts us in one mood or another.

 

Sorry, don't mean to harp on it or make anyone feel bad, just had to point that out

[reinventmyself]

Great post BEG

I went to a different therapist for short time that specialized in CBT.

It was very much in line with what you described. Reframing thoughts.

I could not have explained it as well as you just did

[Silverbirch]

Great post Browneyedgirl. I should certainly take on that change of thinking myself. I hope that's not me hijacking your thread LL. she does make a lot of sense. I hope you are feeling improved.

[reinventmyself]

So incredibly true!!! I've noticed the same thing with a couple of friends who were doing NC, and I told them that their minds were filling in the blanks to worst case scenario because they had a complete lack of information. So it's interesting that you point out that this is exactly what I'm doing.

 

But when I've tried to tell myself things like he cares but is giving up for such and such reason, etc etc, can't even remember specific examples right now... people here tell me that no he DOESN'T care, he's just using me, etc etc. Pretty much filling in the blanks to worst case scenario for me. And I hear it so much that I start to believe it, and it puts me in a hole to feel that way. Whereas if I had believed that hey, he really did love me but he has major issues that don't allow him to stay close, etc etc whatever, then maybe I could have handled the end of things a teeny tiny bit better. It's how we frame things that puts us in one mood or another.

 

Sorry, don't mean to harp on it or make anyone feel bad, just had to point that out

 

Well . .even if you aren't convinced of it. .try the reframing of things and say it out loud if you have to.

 

Isn't it great when we are so good at giving others the very advise we don't take to heart ourselves?

The beauty here is you just caught yourself, though. That's half the battle right there.

[browneyedgirl36]

Great post BEG

I went to a different therapist for short time that specialized in CBT.

It was very much in line with what you described. Reframing thoughts.

I could not have explained it as well as you just did

 

Thanks! I know that some people don't think CBT is useful, but for me, my way of thinking of things was my biggest problem, so changing my thinking was essential.

 

My therapist recommended a great book -- Feeling Good -- by Dr. Burns (can't remember his first name) that helped me tremendously. It's very based in CBT, and it really helped me to see how the vast majority of my issues were caused by how I was thinking of things, rather than the things themselves!

 

I think this approach would be VERY helpful for lostlove, too, as it's clear that she has a lot of those same tendencies -- the negative thought patterns that stem from past experiences, low self-esteem/poor self-image, etc. A lot of us do, I think!

[browneyedgirl36]

Great post Browneyedgirl. I should certainly take on that change of thinking myself. I hope that's not me hijacking your thread LL. she does make a lot of sense. I hope you are feeling improved.

 

Thank you! I think it would be very helpful for you, too. I swear, we women are SO hard on ourselves! We tell ourselves all sorts of negative stuff that simply isn't true. I wish I could wave a magic wand over us all and make it go away!

[reinventmyself]

My therapist recommended a great book -- Feeling Good -- by Dr. Burns (can't remember his first name) that helped me tremendously.

 

I think that was the first self help book I read and yes. .it's really good and an easy read too! I came back and read it a couple years later.

[Silverbirch]

Thank you! I think it would be very helpful for you, too. I swear, we women are SO hard on ourselves! We tell ourselves all sorts of negative stuff that simply isn't true. I wish I could wave a magic wand over us all and make it go away!

 

 

Thank you BEG