The Ups and Downs of Loving a Commitment-Phobe

[lostlove76]

It doesn't matter what he thinks about you answering the phone (well other than he probably thinks if he keeps calling you'll answer eventually). When I say stick to your words and do what you say, it's for your own benefits, nothing to do with what that makes him think.

 

But either way you have seen the results of not sticking to your words. He doesn't take what you say seriously. Fussing at someone is more than pointless, repeat something enough and people will learn to ignore it completely.

 

Plus he was probably in drunk-and-without-a-care-in-the-world state anyway.

 

^^ Yep, that's exactly what kind of state he was in.

 

And nope, he doesn't take what I say seriously, even though I held out for two solid weeks not answering him.

 

I know I shouldn't care what he thinks, but I of course do. For my own satisfaction, I wish he would keep calling and I could ignore forever. It would make me feel better. I know that's not very evolved and sounds petty, but he's hurt me so much that I just want him to know and care that it's affected me to the point that I can no longer talk to him.

[notalady]

^^ Yep, that's exactly what kind of state he was in.

 

And nope, he doesn't take what I say seriously, even though I held out for two solid weeks not answering him.

 

I know I shouldn't care what he thinks, but I of course do. For my own satisfaction, I wish he would keep calling and I could ignore forever. It would make me feel better. I know that's not very evolved and sounds petty, but he's hurt me so much that I just want him to know and care that it's affected me to the point that I can no longer talk to him.

 

The thing is, I suspect you enjoy him calling and you ignoring because you feel that that's hurting him back, you feel satisfaction from some kind of revenge. But we all know it doesn't hurt him. He doesn't have a care in the world, maybe won't even remember he had called and you had ignored because he's drunk.

 

Imagine this, in an alternate world where you are actually together, but of course he only talks to you when drunk, imagine you are married, you're pregnant, you're going into labour, you are a lot of pain and have a difficult labour, meanwhile, he's not there for you, he's out somewhere or at home drinking and being drunk and happy without a care in the world, including without a care for you and the fact that you're in pain. And when you call to ask where he is, he tells you he's just drunk, and you tell him how much pain you went through, he shrugs and tells you who cares! How does that sound?!

[lostlove76]

Yeah, doesn't sound good. I don't want kids, so I have to insert some other scenario in there to imagine, and still doesn't sound good. It's just beyond me how he doesn't have the slightest bit of empathy whatsoever. I was thinking about that earlier. I know when I've broken up with people in the past, I felt horribly guilty for hurting and disappointing them. He didn't exactly "break up" with me, but he might as well have. He made it so that we can't be together. He essentially cheated on me, or dropped me for someone else, or whatever the heck happened. And he just doesn't CARE how much it hurts. Any sane person would know that after speaking soulmate-and-in-love talk for so long, that it would hurt the other person to just go hook up with someone else. And then to TELL them about it, and talk about how hot and pretty she is. How in the world could he not know or care that this would hurt me. I guess it's the alcohol. He could surely hear in my voice how upset I was, and like I said, it didn't even phase him.

 

You're right that I do enjoy him calling and me ignoring because I hope to hurt him back, just to make him FEEL how it feels. It's so incredibly hurtful and frustrating that he just doesn't get it. I do think it bothered him before when I wouldn't answer. When I finally did answer (up until this past period of a few weeks), I could actually hear remorse in his voice. That was before he met this girl (or before I knew about her, at least; I have no clue when he met her). He actually did sound sorry. During those times, I wasn't so much trying to make him hurt as I was just upset and hurt myself and didn't know what to do anymore, and I wanted him to experience at least some consequence and realize he could lose me. But now, there is zero remorse. The only thing that changed is that he either grew to believe I would never actually drop him, and/or his attention is now on this girl. But even if he's not hurting himself, you would think that he would care that I am. But no, he does not care. Not at all, not even a tiny little bit.

[notalady]

Ok you don't want kids. How about if you're really sick or injured? If you're sad at work? He won't care, all he cares about is himself and feeling good about himself (by being drunk). Life is full of ups and downs, if a partner can't be there for you when you're down, what do you want them for??

 

As others have pointed many a time, he's alcoholic, you can't have a relationship with an alcoholic.

[lostlove76]

I just feel so sad tonight. Even seeing him in a worse light than I did before, and giving up all/most hope, I still just miss him. Every time I drive down the road to the gas station, I pass his street, because it's right across from my neighborhood. I went to the gas station earlier tonight, and it just made me miss turning down that road and going to sit with him all night long. When I was writing that last post just now, it made me think back to the last time I saw him before he moved. He had texted me to see if I was coming over, and told me over text that he knows it's not what I wanted to hear, but that he got the job and was leaving in a few days. I told him I understood but that I was already crying. And he said "be happy, it's a good opportunity for me." Like it was all about him and it didn't hurt him to leave or to hurt me by leaving.

 

Then that thought led to another unrelated thought, when we were in his kitchen one night and he dropped a beer bottle because he was so drunk. And I cleaned it up for him. And he hugged me a few times and said thank you, and I could tell he was a bit embarrassed and appreciative that I didn't make a big deal out of it and just helped him clean it up. It was just a very close moment. And now I'm crying again.

 

I know he's felt the feelings. But he has this disturbing ability to switch it all off like a light switch, and poof, feelings gone.

[lostlove76]

Ok you don't want kids. How about if you're really sick or injured? If you're sad at work? He won't care, all he cares about is himself and feeling good about himself (by being drunk). Life is full of ups and downs, if a partner can't be there for you when you're down, what do you want them for??

 

As others have pointed many a time, he's alcoholic, you can't have a relationship with an alcoholic.

 

Yeah, I'm seeing that. He's only there when he wants to be. He wouldn't even be there to share happy moments, I'm sure. He left the apartment he and his ex shared on NYE one year, the night they were throwing a party together, to go off and be with some girl who was in town. He broke up with her - just packed up and left without a word - the morning of her birthday. Didn't show up to go to a game out of town with a group of her friends after she had already bought tickets. I never asked him to do any big things like that with me, but if I had, I'm sure it would've been the same. Unless it was his idea. He did spend my bday and NYE with me year before last (he was already moved this past year).

[lostlove76]

Meant to add... what the heck is WRONG with him?!?!?! I guess it just circles back around to being an alcoholic. Does being an alcoholic always make people lack empathy?

[notalady]

You told him you were crying, he told you to be happy and it's a good opportunity for HIM!! This comes from someone you thought is empathetic...

 

Sorry but all he cares about is himself.

[lostlove76]

You told him you were crying, he told you to be happy and it's a good opportunity for HIM!! This comes from someone you thought is empathetic...

 

Sorry but all he cares about is himself.

 

Yeah, I'm starting to accept that more and more. I guess I always knew it, but kind of blocked it out. That still doesn't explain, though, why he feels sorry for so many people and helps so many people out. I know that he truly cares about people. But not in relationships. Not sure why the difference. Maybe because he doesn't want anyone expecting anything from him.

[notalady]

Yeah, I'm starting to accept that more and more. I guess I always knew it, but kind of blocked it out. That still doesn't explain, though, why he feels sorry for so many people and helps so many people out. I know that he truly cares about people. But not in relationships. Not sure why the difference. Maybe because he doesn't want anyone expecting anything from him.

 

You're talking about deep emotional issues here, which none of us nor you will be able to understand and help with.

 

From my very basic understanding, it may be that he feels safe giving care to others because they are at a safe emotional distance, they don't require a commitment from him in any way. And it makes him feel good to be a saviour.

 

It's like my ex who refused to be verbally and physically affectionate with me but would do those things with his pet and keep saying he misses it when he was away. It's safe to love a pet, not so safe to love a person who requires a commitment. He was full on affectionate with me and say all kinds of wonderful things and promises when I "reject" him though (breaking up or initially saying I wasn't sure about dating him and would just get to know him first and see how we go but once I said I love you back he changed), when I was rejecting him, he was "safe", no commitment required. When things are going well, he knows a level of commitment is required and he'd panic and push me away. It's f***ed up, and honestly, I have no time for that.

[lostlove76]

You're talking about deep emotional issues here, which none of us nor you will be able to understand and help with.

 

From my very basic understanding, it may be that he feels safe giving care to others because they are at a safe emotional distance, they don't require a commitment from him in any way. And it makes him feel good to be a saviour.

 

It's like my ex who refused to be verbally and physically affectionate with me but would do those things with his pet and keep saying he misses it when he was away. It's safe to love a pet, not so safe to love a person who requires a commitment. He was full on affectionate with me and say all kinds of wonderful things and promises when I "reject" him though (breaking up or initially saying I wasn't sure about dating him and would just get to know him first and see how we go but once I said I love you back he changed), when I was rejecting him, he was "safe", no commitment required. When things are going well, he knows a level of commitment is required and he'd panic and push me away. It's f***ed up, and honestly, I have no time for that.

 

That's a really good explanation, and I think you nailed it. Thank you. It really IS effed up. I think part of the reason I want to understand it is because otherwise, I feel like the fault lies in ME. Like him not caring = I'm not good enough to care about. And I don't mean that in a general sense, about not being good enough. Just about him and what he thinks of me. Because I loved him so much, it would hurt to think that there was just something about ME that made him treat me lesser than. I'm always having to convince myself that that's not what it was about.

[Silverbirch]

You're talking about deep emotional issues here, which none of us nor you will be able to understand and help with.

 

From my very basic understanding, it may be that he feels safe giving care to others because they are at a safe emotional distance, they don't require a commitment from him in any way. And it makes him feel good to be a saviour.

 

It's like my ex who refused to be verbally and physically affectionate with me but would do those things with his pet and keep saying he misses it when he was away. It's safe to love a pet, not so safe to love a person who requires a commitment. He was full on affectionate with me and say all kinds of wonderful things and promises when I "reject" him though (breaking up or initially saying I wasn't sure about dating him and would just get to know him first and see how we go but once I said I love you back he changed), when I was rejecting him, he was "safe", no commitment required. When things are going well, he knows a level of commitment is required and he'd panic and push me away. It's f***ed up, and honestly, I have no time for that.

 

Oh Geez Lady. I didn't know you had been through that too. I had 5 years of it. Has messed with me badly and at least I have hope I will pull through. Hugs LL. you are not alone.

[notalady]

Oh Geez Lady. I didn't know you had been through that too. I had 5 years of it. Has messed with me badly and at least I have hope I will pull through. Hugs LL. you are not alone.

 

SB, yes that's what Z did over the last 3 or so months of our relationship. Very glad I ended it quickly and only wasted 6 months on him.

[Silverbirch]

So sorry. Shows my poor judgement. I remember when you first started dating him and he bought you the Swarovski crystal earrings and I thought he seemed such a nice guy, but he turned out to have a lot of problems and made you unhappy.

[notalady]

So sorry. Shows my poor judgement. I remember when you first started dating him and he bought you the Swarovski crystal earrings and I thought he seemed such a nice guy, but he turned out to have a lot of problems and made you unhappy.

 

Thanks SB it's easy to be distracted by a guy's apparent niceness at the beginning, we just need to pay attention to red flags and be patient to assess them as time goes on rather than jumping to (positive) conclusion based on the first few months.

[Silverbirch]

You are so much more savvy than I am despite the age difference - I think I have just chosen to believe what I have wanted to because I allowed myself to get attached way too soon.

[browneyedgirl36]

You told him you were crying, he told you to be happy and it's a good opportunity for HIM!! This comes from someone you thought is empathetic...

 

Sorry but all he cares about is himself.

 

Exactly. I swear, sometimes, when I read your posts, I think you're dating my ex. He did the EXACT same thing: I'd be upset, and he'd find some way to spin it so that it was about HIM, or he'd say some really insensitive -- and totally incongruous -- thing that just left me shaking my head (and sometimes, hating him a little, to be honest).

 

What he's done here is "managed down your expectations" (see the Baggage Reclaim site for more on this), so that ANY nice thing he does, any slight vulnerability he shows (like thanking you and being ashamed when he dropped the beer bottle and you cleaned it up) seems like some grand gesture that shows what a sensitive, good guy he really is. YUCK. Guys like this care ONLY about themselves -- or, at least MOSTLY about themselves.

[browneyedgirl36]

Yeah, I'm starting to accept that more and more. I guess I always knew it, but kind of blocked it out. That still doesn't explain, though, why he feels sorry for so many people and helps so many people out. I know that he truly cares about people. But not in relationships. Not sure why the difference. Maybe because he doesn't want anyone expecting anything from him.

 

Exactly. My ex is a teacher, like me. He has really helped some of his students a lot, and he seems to go out of his way for some of them. He also donates a lot to charity, etc. The thing is, these things are EASY. It's easy to help a student who will be in your class for a semester or two and then out of your life forever. It's easy to send checks to charities. It's easy to help a stranger on the street who needs something. None of these things requires much, if any, personal investment for him because none of these people expects anything else from him, particularly emotionally. Yeah, he can be the "good guy" when it comes to other people, but in relationships....yikes. The first sign anyone expects anything from him in an emotional sense, and he freaks out.

[browneyedgirl36]

That's a really good explanation, and I think you nailed it. Thank you. It really IS effed up. I think part of the reason I want to understand it is because otherwise, I feel like the fault lies in ME. Like him not caring = I'm not good enough to care about. And I don't mean that in a general sense, about not being good enough. Just about him and what he thinks of me. Because I loved him so much, it would hurt to think that there was just something about ME that made him treat me lesser than. I'm always having to convince myself that that's not what it was about.

 

His not caring enough is NO reflection on you whatsoever. Nothing to do with not being "good enough to care about." This is entirely about HIM.

 

I understand your thoughts -- I had them too. It's a manifestation of low self-esteem and poor self-image, things you'll need to work on to insure that guys like this won't even get near you in the future. They're like sharks, I tell you -- they smell blood in the water, and they go in for the kill!

[browneyedgirl36]

Oh Geez Lady. I didn't know you had been through that too. I had 5 years of it. Has messed with me badly and at least I have hope I will pull through. Hugs LL. you are not alone.

 

I've read your journal, SB , and though I don't think I've commented much, it's all very familiar to me. I had about five years of it too. I only let go when I was forced to -- when my ex started seeing others and making sure I knew about it (like bringing one of his girlfriends to work with him -- yikes!) but regardless of how it happened, I let go, and it was the best thing I've ever done for myself. You've definitely learned a lot from your experience, and you're on the road to better things, for sure -- especially since you seem to have such a full life without a man in it. That's smart, and healthy. Keep it up!

[lostlove76]

Hugs to all of us. It's just amazing to me how many guys are like this. I don't get it. You would think people would try not to be bad people. They don't even care that they hurt people, and in fact, seem to get off on it. Browneyedgirl, why did your ex want you to see that he had other girls? Why throw it in your face like that? Mine did that to his ex - took a girl to the bar where she was working. Just horribly cruel. I'm pretty much hating mine today. I see another flirty comment he left to yet a different girl on Facebook (actually the girl I just mentioned, that he took to his ex's bar so many years ago). It just makes me sick. If it's not one girl, it's another. I'm just torturing myself by looking, and yet I seem to have no desire to stop. I don't know what I hope to find.

[notalady]

Hugs to all of us. It's just amazing to me how many guys are like this. I don't get it. You would think people would try not to be bad people. They don't even care that they hurt people, and in fact, seem to get off on it. Browneyedgirl, why did your ex want you to see that he had other girls? Why throw it in your face like that? Mine did that to his ex - took a girl to the bar where she was working. Just horribly cruel. I'm pretty much hating mine today. I see another flirty comment he left to yet a different girl on Facebook (actually the girl I just mentioned, that he took to his ex's bar so many years ago). It just makes me sick. If it's not one girl, it's another. I'm just torturing myself by looking, and yet I seem to have no desire to stop. I don't know what I hope to find.

 

I tend not to think of them as bad people, I'm sure they are good people in some's eyes (probably family friends colleagues). I'm sure they themselves also don't see them as bad people. People are great at rationalising their behaviour to make themselves feel better about it.

 

Instead of wasting brain cells trying to be a pseudo psychologist, I think of things in simple terms, that is, I simply see them as people I don't want in my life because they are incompatible in one way or another. Just like I don't want to be friends with people who are super negative and forever whinging about something, they aren't bad people, I just don't want them in my life.

[lostlove76]

I tend not to think of them as bad people, I'm sure they are good people in some's eyes (probably family friends colleagues). I'm sure they themselves also don't see them as bad people. People are great at rationalising their behaviour to make themselves feel better about it.

 

He thinks he's a horrible person, he says it all the time. I think he's both an amazingly kind person, and a horrible person, depending on who he's dealing with. I'm sure he does rationalize the womanizing. It all just makes me sick really, the whole entire thing with him.

 

Instead of wasting brain cells trying to be a pseudo psychologist, I think of things in simple terms, that is, I simply see them as people I don't want in my life because they are incompatible in one way or another. Just like I don't want to be friends with people who are super negative and forever whinging about something, they aren't bad people, I just don't want them in my life.

 

It's exhausting playing psychologist. I don't do that with others, just him. Time to stop I guess. He is what he is.

[reinventmyself]

I get that you get really stuck on how giving he is to some and not others, especially you.

You need to remember there are two basic motivations for giving.

One is selfless. You have genuine empathy and want give to another.

The other is for selfish reasons. Giving makes you feel better about yourself, or even superior at times.

(Narcissists are notoriously altruistic)

(Just an example)

 

It's typically a combination of the two that motivates someone to do so. Ideally more for selfless reasons then egocentric ones

 

Defending how great this guy is can keep you stuck.

Be open to the fact that all his generosity may very well be mostly self serving

You can often see someone's over compensating (giving)is a measure of their own self loathing.

 

Having said that compare how much you give or how generous you are of yourself has mirrored how little you value yourself.

 

It doesn't make us bad people but it doesn't put us on a pedestal either.

[lostlove76]

Hmm. That's something to contemplate. I don't know what his motivations are for giving, honestly. I think most of the time it is selfless, but with girls he's attracted to, it's probably mostly for personal gain. Then sometimes he goes so far as to purposely WITHHOLD rather than give, when it would be easier just to give. Just an example: he rarely if ever answered my texts, no matter what I said in them. If he was just doing whatever was convenient at the time, seems he would have answered some of them occasionally. I always felt like he purposely did not, as a power play. I asked his ex a while back (a different ex) if she ever got the sense that he plays passive-aggressive games, because I didn't know if it was all in my head. And she said "of course he does!" The purposeful withholding hurts more than the general lack of giving, but I guess all of it is selfish and bad. I see what is being said about it not making him a bad person. But it definitely makes him a hurtful person.

 

I continue to be bothered by him flirting with all these girls. My friend said he's attention-seeking, and I think she's right. He could have had all the attention he wanted from me, but yet he would rather have it from 20 random girls instead. I guess because they don't require anything of him, and he gets to feel like he's attractive, and like a hero to these girls he feels sorry for.

 

Wondering if he'll call tonight. I would love the chance to ignore him just one more time to prove that despite answering the phone the other night, I really am sticking to what I said and not going to allow him to screw me around while he's whoring it up with other women.