The Ups and Downs of Loving a Commitment-Phobe

[lostlove76]

And this basically boils down to 'trust'. He has proven himself untrustworthy.

So why would the words, text or vm from a man who has lost your trust matter? It shouldn't It has no value but your own self worth seems to hang on this.

 

I shake my head as you rationalize in complete detail whether or not he realizes he has the choice to leave a message or text but wrestle with why he cant or wont? He chooses not to. There is nothing complicated about it.

 

I was just thinking that he might want to say it on the phone, as he keeps calling and calling, so he must have something to say. But since I won't answer, seems he could just text or voicemail it. But I don't know. He might would rather say it on the phone. Other people just don't always know what we want or expect -- like if I have this "rule" in my head that he needs to text me his thoughts, how could he possibly know that's what I'm thinking/wanting/expecting? Or if I were to tell myself, okay, I'll answer the phone if he tries calling two days in a row since I want him to call more and try harder. How would he know that's what I need him to do?

 

Does that make sense what I'm saying? It just might not even occur to him to leave a text. He might just think, well I'll just keep trying to call until she answers and then we can talk about it.

[reinventmyself]

I would love to make a list of good/bad and hear your feedback on it, BUT I'm afraid that it will just make me miss him terribly and set me back. I've really been trying to block out all the good things and not think about them. Because it just softens my heart and makes me miss him a lot and makes me want to talk to him. There really IS a LOT of good, which is why I'm finding it so hard to move on. Maybe later or if at some point I'm just feeling at my wit's end, I'll make the list and see what you think. But I'll hold off for now....

But it's the `good' that keeps you hooked.

You need to remember no one is all bad. (rarely) Even Jeffery Dahmer had good qualities and was very charming.

If we all stayed in soul destroying, toxic relationships because someone had a good or several good qualities, no one would be divorced.

But much like your case, there are overwhelming parts of him that are deal breakers and make him an unsuitable partner.

 

You can leave with a full heart and wish those very good parts of him well. (it's actually the most mature, highly evolved thing to do)

But for the most part you need to take care of yourself and in doing so you need to place your needs above his and accept

that he isn't going to step up for you. He has made it abundantly clear by his actions that he isn't concerned with your needs.

The evidence is overwhelming and the signs are all there.

You just need to keep moving forward.

 

Honestly, from where I sit the choice is out of your hands anyway. You have asked repeatedly for something and he has proven to you over and over that he will not - or can not deliver.

 

It's mind boggling that you still think you have some leverage here.

 

It's time to start taking care of yourself based on the information you have right in front of you.

No more 'what if's'

[lostlove76]

If he wanted to do something to fix it, he would. Period.

 

And no "But what if he doesn't know HOW??? What if he isn't because I'm ignoring him???? What if it's ALL MY FAULT???"

 

Nope. He CHOSE to move hours and hours away. He CHOSE not to come get you. This didn't happen in the past 2 weeks and some odd days. It's been that way for EIGHT months.

 

If he really loved you and missed you, he could come see you. But he CHOOSES not to. (And nope, don't try to assign yourself blame for that either. If he told you "I'm coming to see you tomorrow", would you have told him "no, thanks"? Doubt it.)

 

AND, he chooses to go on dating sites, kiss and see other women, and tell you lies.

 

You have made him do none of this.

 

All that's left is for you to decide is how long you want to keep sitting in your room with your phone in front of you and the computer on with the dating site on one tab and Facebook on the other (and ENA as well, can't forget that!), pining and wishing for him to make some grand gesture so you can take him back (and obsessing over "what is he thinking???"). I'm willing to bet HE isn't sitting in his apartment pining. So why should you?

 

Your last paragraph made me laugh. I laugh every time you say that, because it's so true. I know it's not meant to be funny, but if we can't laugh at ourselves sometimes, we might as well crawl in a hole and stay there. It's funny because you know me so well.

 

Yeah, I doubt he's pining. And YES, HE is the one who caused all this crap in the first place by moving away. If he wanted to be with his soulmate then he shouldn't have moved 4 hours away. He wants things on his terms, at a distance, and wants to be free to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. And that just doesn't work for me. I have to keep reminding myself of that. Nothing is really stopping him from moving back here or bringing me there, right? It's his choice.

[boltnrun]

I was just thinking that he might want to say it on the phone, as he keeps calling and calling, so he must have something to say. But since I won't answer, seems he could just text or voicemail it. But I don't know. He might would rather say it on the phone. Other people just don't always know what we want or expect -- like if I have this "rule" in my head that he needs to text me his thoughts, how could he possibly know that's what I'm thinking/wanting/expecting? Or if I were to tell myself, okay, I'll answer the phone if he tries calling two days in a row since I want him to call more and try harder. How would he know that's what I need him to do?

 

Does that make sense what I'm saying? It just might not even occur to him to leave a text. He might just think, well I'll just keep trying to call until she answers and then we can talk about it.

 

More excuses to hold on. And no, it doesn't make sense.

 

He keeps calling not because of any of the rationalizations you keep coming up with, but because you've proven in the past that you are thrilled with breadcrumbs. And because he's perfectly happy with things staying exactly as they were with no movement toward anything more. And he doesn't believe you when you say you're done, because you've never stayed "done" before.

[lostlove76]

Sorry for all these separate posts!! Playing catch-up and trying to reply to everything.

 

Dear OP,

I just hope that you keep taking steps (no matter how small) towards your freedom from this man and most importantly how you feel about him in your heart.

I really dont know what your relationship goals are. I hope at least you know what those are.

Like someone here mentioned "You are not maintaining NC if you are regularly checking his FB." I agree with them. You need time and distance to heal from this entire episode. You need to be indifferent and you will get to that state. But to eventually reach there, you have to keep taking steps forward and not backward. You are achieving nothing by checking his FB and evaluating what kind of women he is meeting and why he didn't provide you the same that he is giving them. You will not know his exact reason. May be he is being impulsive, may be he is intrigued that he can't fully control that woman, may be he lost interest in you because the thrill of chase was gone and you had become predictable, or something else. Do you really want to know the reason?

There is a saying in my culture - (and the loose translation is -) "Once you get off the horse, who gets on him next is none of your business."

This is the reason why I blocked every man I ever met (that I can remember) in marriage process. Those men and I are not together for whatever reason. I don't want to know whether they are single, married, miserable, or something else. I don't care to know who they are with because it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't change the fact that they didn't choose me. I don't want to continue to torture myself by inspecting their lives and their choices and wonder why they didn't choose me.

I really hope that you tap into the strength in your heart. It is there. You have support here on ENA. Keep moving forward!

Stop checking his FB. May be change your phone number. Even if he comes back, an alcoholic that he is, he won't offer you a stable relationship (unless you want to be unstable and thrive on drama). Forgive yourself for making this mistake. Vow to yourself that you won't repeat this mistake ever again.

 

Hey Layaan. I get your points. I know I'm too tied up in what he's doing and with whom. I make up these scenarios about these other women, and honestly, I could be way off base. I imagine worst case scenario and then believe it to be true. I do this with one girl after another. It feels like a nightmare to me to imagine him connecting with someone else the way he and I connected. I feel like what we had was rare and special. I know everyone else always says that about their exes as well. It's just that as I've explained before, neither he nor I really get that emotionally close to others, so in that way it really was rare (for each of us). I know that he'll eventually reach that level with someone else, and that's just so sad to me. I don't think that I ever will find it with anyone else.

 

I guess I'll quit looking at his stuff when I'm ready. I imagine it will probably just happen gradually. I think I'll probably care less and less as time goes on. Everyone says I should quit looking, and I get that, but I have NO willpower for such things. It's so incredibly easy to just click a button and take a peek, and so incredibly hard not to. Ya know?

[lostlove76]

You already issued your ultimatum and he already didn't meet it. I think it's best to move on and not hope that he does anything dramatic.

 

Yep, you already told him "come get me Wednesday or it's over". He said no.

 

So...that leaves you with two choices. Keep pining and hoping that he somehow didn't really mean that "no" and he'll magically show up, or start the hard work of building a life of your own that isn't dependent on whether or not he calls.

 

I don't really expect him to show up. I really don't. So I don't know why I hang on to the hope.

 

He does keep calling though. If he just felt kind of "eh" about it, it seems like he would just call randomly once or twice. But he's been calling every other day like clockwork, and early enough that I can tell he was planning on calling. I just know from his patterns (trust me, I know him) that he's calling because he planned to, not because he just got lonely and called me last on a list of others or something. He's kept trying, for two weeks straight. I don't know exactly what that says, but it says something. He must care at least a little.

 

ETA: I'll be right back to catch up on the rest

[reinventmyself]

I know that he'll eventually reach that level with someone else, and that's just so sad to me. I don't think that I ever will find it with anyone else.

 

You should pray you don't . .seriously!!

 

Use this as a lesson. Take those fabulous parts of him and set the bar to where you find someone who has those very qualities.

They do exist in other people you know. He's just not that unique.

 

At the same time you take those unacceptable parts of him and set that bar too. Set the bar and believe that won't even cross paths with an unavailable womanizer who talks drunken smack and doesn't deliver.

[reinventmyself]

 

. I don't know exactly what that says, but it says something. He must care at least a little.

 

All it says is you have rewarded him in the past and he does what works . . for him.

That's why he does it.

[boltnrun]

All it says is you have rewarded him in the past and he does what works . . for him.

That's why he does it.

 

Bingo!

 

It's not complicated. He does whatever gets him the results he wants.

[lostlove76]

But it's the `good' that keeps you hooked.

You need to remember no one is all bad. (rarely) Even Jeffery Dahmer had good qualities and was very charming.

If we all stayed in soul destroying, toxic relationships because someone had a good or several good qualities, no one would be divorced.

But much like your case, there are overwhelming parts of him that are deal breakers and make him an unsuitable partner.

 

You can leave with a full heart and wish those very good parts of him well. (it's actually the most mature, highly evolved thing to do)

But for the most part you need to take care of yourself and in doing so you need to place your needs above his and accept

that he isn't going to step up for you. He has made it abundantly clear by his actions that he isn't concerned with your needs.

The evidence is overwhelming and the signs are all there.

You just need to keep moving forward.

 

Honestly, from where I sit the choice is out of your hands anyway. You have asked repeatedly for something and he has proven to you over and over that he will not - or can not deliver.

 

It's mind boggling that you still think you have some leverage here.

 

It's time to start taking care of yourself based on the information you have right in front of you.

No more 'what if's'

 

I guess that's what I'm trying to do (last sentence) in terms of not talking to him at all. I know that I'm still hanging on mentally and emotionally and doing things that you guys highly suggest I stop doing. I'm just hoping to gosh that the feelings will start fading, at which point I won't feel the want or need to do those things anymore. All the what-if's and such. Just sitting here at this moment thinking of losing him forever makes my stomach hurt, makes me feel ill.

 

I get what you're saying about no one being all bad, and that's a good point. And how just because he has all these amazing qualities, it doesn't negate all the deal breakers. I think my problem is that he's the best I've ever had. So I really can't imagine ever having anyone else who even comes close. Yeah I may find someone who doesn't have all the horrible deal-breakers that he has, but they also won't have all the good stuff to the extent that he does. It will just be mediocre and blah, and I won't really feel much of anything for the person. I won't connect with them like I connected with him. So it feels like I'm giving him up, not to make room for something better, but to just have nothing at all. I had to do it for my health and sanity, obviously, and losing all the bad is a crucial thing. But I also lose all the good, and I'm left with nothing.

 

Does that make sense?

 

He really is not concerned with my needs, like you say. Which made it an impossible situation unless I want to be a doormat. I know I need to let him go. Just waiting for my heart to catch up.

[lostlove76]

More excuses to hold on. And no, it doesn't make sense.

 

He keeps calling not because of any of the rationalizations you keep coming up with, but because you've proven in the past that you are thrilled with breadcrumbs. And because he's perfectly happy with things staying exactly as they were with no movement toward anything more. And he doesn't believe you when you say you're done, because you've never stayed "done" before.

 

I would think he would believe it by now, though, don't you think? He's been flatly ignored for two weeks now, and that's the longest I've ever gone. I fell off the face of the earth to him. So I can't imagine that he wouldn't realize by now that I'm completely gone. This is so different from how I've ever acted with him. Even when I wasn't answering the phone before, I was sending mean texts. I've done none of that this time.

[boltnrun]

That's like saying I need to lose weight, so I'm going to keep eating cheeseburgers and hot fudge sundaes until I don't want them anymore.

 

Do you think I'd have much success losing weight if I used that approach?

 

And you keep asking over and over "why does he keep calling?" And we keep telling you it's because 1) you've always caved in before, so he knows there is a very high chance of you caving in again, 2) because he wants things back the way they were (not a bit more, however) and 3) because you treat his breadcrumbs as though they are banquets, so he thinks you're satisfied with what he's willing to give (not a bit more, however).

 

And finally, you hang on because you've convinced yourself you'll never, ever, EVER feel this way about anyone else ever again.

 

I told myself (and anyone who would listen) the same thing about another one of my exes. Yet, I DID get over him. And I DID have three (count 'em, THREE) chances to start seeing him again recently and I said "no, thanks" each and every time. Because I don't love him anymore.

 

But you aren't even willing to try. Yes, you're doing very well not answering his calls. Kudos for that. But you're not willing to take even a small next step to help yourself. HE isn't going to help you, and although we'd like to, we can't really help either. It's all you.

[lostlove76]

I know that he'll eventually reach that level with someone else, and that's just so sad to me. I don't think that I ever will find it with anyone else.

 

You should pray you don't . .seriously!!

 

Use this as a lesson. Take those fabulous parts of him and set the bar to where you find someone who has those very qualities.

They do exist in other people you know. He's just not that unique.

 

At the same time you take those unacceptable parts of him and set that bar too. Set the bar and believe that won't even cross paths with an unavailable womanizer who talks drunken smack and doesn't deliver.

 

That's a good idea. And when I'm ready to think about anything with someone else, maybe I should make a list of all the good I need/want and all the bad that I won't accept. And stick to it. I think my mom said something similar once. She said that at least I know now what it feels like to have the good stuff, and I can make sure that my next relationship provides that. I still can't imagine ever even having another relationship, but I guess it's normal to feel that way.

 

A lot of his good, I don't even get to experience anymore anyway!! All the in-person stuff. I wasn't getting that from him anymore, it was all memories and hopes for the future.

[Realitynut]

A lot of his good, I don't even get to experience anymore anyway!! All the in-person stuff. I wasn't getting that from him anymore, it was all memories and hopes for the future.

 

Bingo.

 

BTW...i contacted my ex today by phone. It went horribly south. He hung up on me. then i started texting ...I'm sorry, didn't mean to upset you.

 

Blah, Blah. Put all the 'badness' on me....forget that he called me horrible names last Friday and Sunday...and when I cried, he said I was 'scary'....

So now that I called, ( I found out why he called yesterday, and I didn't answer...he didn't like a comment I left on fb) I'm the 'bad' guy...and he's off the hook.

 

Now I'm hurt even MORE. Before when I left HIM...I was one up...and in charge. Now that he hung up on ME...and he's tossing me aside (again) I am letting HIM be in charge of ME and my FEELINGS.

 

Not right. I have a FLAW in my makeup.

I'm damaged goods to feel this way.

 

I think if you want a damgaged man....

You are damaged yourself.

 

And I mean that as YOU and ME!

 

The truth is hard to bare. But yes....sometimes I wonder if crumbs are better than nothing. Because at times...it was great.

 

But I want GREAT more than once a week...or once a month.

[Realitynut]

Plus, two weeks of not calling ain't nothing.

 

We've done that LOTS of times. It's usually at the second weekend one of us caves. But the nastiness is getting worse.

 

The first week you can stay away cuz you're feeding off your anger and disappointment.

The second week you're wanting to cave, cuz you're lonely and afraid you're losing him.

 

The first full MONTH you'll still have hope.

 

The SECOND month is the worst...because if you've had no contact (which I doubt that will have happened) or he met someone else (which I doubt that will happen, cuz really, who wants a drunken lying commitment phobe) Then you've LOST your HOPE. And losing your HOPE is the most devastating feeling. But it has to happen.

 

You have to LOSE that false hope that things are going to get better! Or you really aren't moving on....you're still HOPING he'll change. THAT IS NOT MOVING ON...trust me. You are just not answering his calls in HOPES that he comes to his senses and comes running to you with open arms.

 

You are NOT not answering his calls for the sole purpose of getting him out of your life...which is what you should be doing. (me too)

You are NOT answering his calls, for the sole purpose of luring him back in.

 

Bottom line. Until You Don't WANT him...and make that decision to move away emotionally from him...you are still tied to him as if he was still calling you every 2 f'ng days.

[reinventmyself]

 

 

And finally, you hang on because you've convinced yourself you'll never, ever, EVER feel this way about anyone else ever again.

 

I told myself (and anyone who would listen) the same thing about another one of my exes. Yet, I DID get over him. And I DID have three (count 'em, THREE) chances to start seeing him again recently and I said "no, thanks" each and every time. Because I don't love him anymore.

 

.

 

You need to be aware that almost everybody feels like this is the last love you will ever have and you'll be alone forever and ever.

 

It's not a measure of how special he is. . It's the grief talking.

You will love again and if you take these lessons. . you will love better.

[lostlove76]

I told myself (and anyone who would listen) the same thing about another one of my exes. Yet, I DID get over him. And I DID have three (count 'em, THREE) chances to start seeing him again recently and I said "no, thanks" each and every time. Because I don't love him anymore.

 

How long did it take exactly before you quit loving him??

 

because he wants things back the way they were (not a bit more, however)

 

Yes, this is true. He talked a big game about the future, but the way things were suited him just perfectly. He got to live the single life down there and do whatever he wanted, while having all the love and emotional connection and great all-night conversations with me. If myself and any other girls would allow it, I'm quite sure that he would love to just have multiple girls to fill different needs, and he'd never have to get TOO close to any one of them. I'm sure that would be his ideal situation. However, what girl in their right mind is going to be okay with this? He knew I wasn't okay with it, so he kept his other "activities" on the downlow and convinced himself that "it doesn't matter" (one of his favorite phrases). I cringe to think that I really have no idea what all he's done down there.

 

Can a womanizer ever change??

 

I guess I've just read so many things about people only changing and realizing what they've lost after they've actually lost it. It happens, I know it does. So is there not even a 2% chance that this will happen with him? If he really feels like I'm his soulmate and he loves me more than he's ever loved anyone and I mean the world to him, will he do whatever it takes to not lose it entirely? Or will he give up, because it's too hard to make any changes? I know I've probably asked that same question a hundred times, I'm sorry. No one has to answer (again) if you don't want to.

 

But you aren't even willing to try. Yes, you're doing very well not answering his calls. Kudos for that. But you're not willing to take even a small next step to help yourself. HE isn't going to help you, and although we'd like to, we can't really help either. It's all you.

 

Not answering his calls is the first step, and I've done that. And that was a HUUUUUUUGE step for me, and something I really never thought I would be capable of following through with.

 

I'm going to work for a few hours again tonight. I'd say more about it, but I try to keep identifying details off of here because I fear the off-chance of anyone I know ever finding this. Although if he himself ever found it, I guess he would recognize himself pretty quickly. Anyways, so I'm working a little, making a little money. And it's a 30-minute drive. I had difficulty with it at first, but it's now become easier and easier. I still don't like driving in the dark, but it's manageable. My driving issues depend on traffic and how much sleep I've had and all kinds of things. It's not that I just don't drive at all, btw. I'm just very particular about it, and avoid anything that makes me anxious.

 

It bothers me that he only tried to call once last night instead of three times. He's slowing down his efforts.

[lostlove76]

You need to be aware that almost everybody feels like this is the last love you will ever have and you'll be alone forever and ever.

 

It's not a measure of how special he is. . It's the grief talking.

You will love again and if you take these lessons. . you will love better.

 

Thank you

[reinventmyself]

Can a womanizer ever change??

 

I guess I've just read so many things about people only changing and realizing what they've lost after they've actually lost it. It happens, I know it does. So is there not even a 2% chance that this will happen with him?

 

I don't think people really ever change that much. I think we basically stay the same but learn to navigate things or manage the same things differently.

 

When you go to this place of wondering if he will have an epiphany of some sorts and miraculously change, it's pretty tall order for a person with a variety of personality, character and addiction issues.

 

He throws around the title of Narcissism? Not sure if he is and if so, this is a `personality disorder' just so you are aware. Read up on personality disorders and you'll find Narcissists do not change. They are absolutely incapable of looking at them selves and being introspective. But they do know how to mimic and parrot what people want to hear.

 

Even at best he'll never change to the degree you need him to. Or to the degree that permits him to participate in a relationship.

 

He has to have a conscious and empathy first and foremost to even look within, which is impossible do so while intoxicated.

 

I think you are 'waiting for fish to fly"

[lostlove76]

The truth is hard to bare. But yes....sometimes I wonder if crumbs are better than nothing. Because at times...it was great.

 

But I want GREAT more than once a week...or once a month.

 

EXACTLY!!!! Sometimes it feels better than nothing. But the problem is that we can't handle not getting it full-time. In that sense, it's almost better to have the nothing. It's like an alcoholic who wants to drink every day only getting to drink 3 times per week, and then white-knuckling it the other days. They would be better off quitting entirely.

 

BTW...i contacted my ex today by phone. It went horribly south. He hung up on me. then i started texting ...I'm sorry, didn't mean to upset you.

 

Blah, Blah. Put all the 'badness' on me....forget that he called me horrible names last Friday and Sunday...and when I cried, he said I was 'scary'....

So now that I called, ( I found out why he called yesterday, and I didn't answer...he didn't like a comment I left on fb) I'm the 'bad' guy...and he's off the hook.

 

Now I'm hurt even MORE. Before when I left HIM...I was one up...and in charge. Now that he hung up on ME...and he's tossing me aside (again) I am letting HIM be in charge of ME and my FEELINGS.

 

I know you're not here for my advice, but here it is anyway I think you need to do whatever you need to do to ALWAYS have the one-up in terms of communication. You will feel stronger. I would say to ALWAYS let him initiate. Then you won't have to feel sad when your attempt at contact is ignored or rejected. There was a period of time with mine, way back in the beginning after the first breakup, when I initiated 100% of the time. He simply WOULD NOT text me first. And I knew it was on purpose, because he would always answer right away and ask me to come over. But it bothered me tremendously to have to be the one to text first. So eventually I just stopped, and he soon texted first. Then I quit initiating, and made him initiate 100% of the time, and that's pretty much how it remained up through now except for a few rare occasions. You'll just feel better if he initiates, and he will, if you stop. It gives you at least a little bit of power, and it makes him invest in you.

 

Have you read these two books:

 

 

 

Of course, me offering you advice is like the blind leading the blind here.

 

I'm sorry you're hurting

[lostlove76]

Plus, two weeks of not calling ain't nothing.

 

We've done that LOTS of times. It's usually at the second weekend one of us caves. But the nastiness is getting worse.

 

The first week you can stay away cuz you're feeding off your anger and disappointment.

The second week you're wanting to cave, cuz you're lonely and afraid you're losing him.

 

The first full MONTH you'll still have hope.

 

The SECOND month is the worst...because if you've had no contact (which I doubt that will have happened) or he met someone else (which I doubt that will happen, cuz really, who wants a drunken lying commitment phobe) Then you've LOST your HOPE. And losing your HOPE is the most devastating feeling. But it has to happen.

 

You have to LOSE that false hope that things are going to get better! Or you really aren't moving on....you're still HOPING he'll change. THAT IS NOT MOVING ON...trust me. You are just not answering his calls in HOPES that he comes to his senses and comes running to you with open arms.

 

You are NOT not answering his calls for the sole purpose of getting him out of your life...which is what you should be doing. (me too)

You are NOT answering his calls, for the sole purpose of luring him back in.

 

Bottom line. Until You Don't WANT him...and make that decision to move away emotionally from him...you are still tied to him as if he was still calling you every 2 f'ng days.

 

I've kind of gone back and forth in terms of my purpose for not answering. I think it started off mostly because I couldn't deal with it anymore and for my own sanity I had to get over him, and not talking to him was the only way to do that. But then I started hoping it would make him change. It really just goes back and forth. But at least I'm not answering, regardless! It's hard to turn off the wish that he would fix things. That's like trying not to wish that you would win the lottery, ya know??

 

or he met someone else (which I doubt that will happen, cuz really, who wants a drunken lying commitment phobe)

 

Thank you for saying this!!

 

So from your timeline, it seems like I will feel even worse a couple weeks from now. I guess I best expect it if it's gonna happen, huh? Because I get what you mean about it being devastating when the hope is gone, and that is sure to happen at some point.

[boltnrun]

People change 1) if they truly WANT to change (not because someone else wants them to) and 2) if they're willing to do the hard work of changing. Otherwise, nope, won't happen.

 

"How long did it take exactly before you quit loving him??"

 

Well, I don't know "exactly" because it wasn't noteworthy enough for me to record the exact time frame. I will tell you that I started getting better once I quit engaging with him. I had zero contact with him for a long, long time (years) before I saw him again at an event. I guarantee if I kept seeing him and sleeping with him (and yes, we continued to sleep together for many months after we officially broke up...horrible idea) it would have taken much longer. Plus, people heal differently based on too many factors to list, one of which is whether or not they're actively trying to move on. When they're deliberately NOT actively trying to move on (like you're doing), I suppose it could take years.

[notalady]

Why don't you give us a list of his good qualities that are genuinely hard to come by all in one person. This doesn't include how sweet he used to be and how he says I love you and how he used to be affectionate and open up to you, for one, those are the bare minimums that anyone and everyone in a relationship can do, it's nothing special and you can find that with just about anyone, and second, it's not the real him since he isn't consistently doing them and in fact was only doing it when he was drunk. Exclude your "emotional connection" too, we can all have emotional connections with multiple people, not with anyone and everyone but it's certainly not rare. Besides that not a quality of his so it doesn't count.

 

I'm talking about character and values and personality traits that makes you think, this man is really decent / good! I really respect / admire that! I'd love to keep dating this guy.

 

I'll give you some examples, I can see my boyfriend is honest and loyal, I can see that in the way he treats not just me but his friends, family and work; he's respectful to me and to everyone in his life, he would never speak/behave disrespectfully of or to anyone (even people he dislike); he's kind, gentle and thoughtful, he would never do anything that hurts me or anyone, even unintentionally, even as a joke/for fun. The list goes on. Point is I can see him doing these things consistently across all aspects of his life over a long period of time (almost a year) so I'm reasonably sure this is how he is. These are qualities I respect and admire. Even then, I wouldn't say he's unique, I would say I can probably find a good guy like him again if we broke up (touch wood!) but it would ACTUALLY be hard to find and will take a long time.

 

Now you tell me a list of good qualities you find on this guy that makes you think you can never find it on someone else again.

 

At the end of the day, striping away any emotional attachment, we all want to date a man that we can respect / admire. At least for me, once I've lost respect for a guy, I can't love him anymore. I might still feel attached in the short term but in the long term, there can be no love. I hardly think you can still respect your guy after all that he's demonstrated of who he is.

[lostlove76]

One last post, and then I need to eat dinner and go to work. Running late!! I'll be back in a few hours and will post more, because my feelings are kind of all over the place right now. I just feel unsettled. And I'll answer anything I've missed. Thanks guys

 

Can a womanizer ever change??

 

I guess I've just read so many things about people only changing and realizing what they've lost after they've actually lost it. It happens, I know it does. So is there not even a 2% chance that this will happen with him?

 

I don't think people really ever change that much. I think we basically stay the same but learn to navigate things or manage the same things differently.

 

When you go to this place of wondering if he will have an epiphany of some sorts and miraculously change, it's pretty tall order for a person with a variety of personality, character and addiction issues.

 

He throws around the title of Narcissism? Not sure if he is and if so, this is a `personality disorder' just so you are aware. Read up on personality disorders and you'll find Narcissists do not change. They are absolutely incapable of looking at them selves and being introspective. But they do know how to mimic and parrot what people want to hear.

 

Even at best he'll never change to the degree you need him to. Or to the degree that permits him to participate in a relationship.

 

He has to have a conscious and empathy first and foremost to even look within, which is impossible do so while intoxicated.

 

I think you are 'waiting for fish to fly"

 

I was so surprised when he told me that he's narcissistic. I read a lot about it a year and a half ago, because I came across it while trying to figure out what to do about him, and I was googling a lot because I could just make no sense of it. I even texted him an article about it once, but I doubt he remembers. The first time he mentioned it himself was this past summer right after he had watched a Dr. Drew episode about it lol. He said I'm narcissistic too, which surprised me even further, that he would have put any thought at all into whether I am or I'm not. He's brought it up a couple times since then, using it to explain why he acts the way he acts. He said he doesn't want to be. I don't think he fully is, because he has an extremely soft heart and deep empathy for people in need. He's not just mimicking the empathy, I am certain. He cried one time while talking about paying rent for his friend who couldn't afford it, because he felt sorry for him. And he cried another time because he wanted to do something for the homeless that the law wouldn't allow (again, trying to leave out identifying details here), and snot was literally dripping from his nose (gross, i know, sorry... just pointing out that it was very real). So he's not TOTALLY narcissistic. And yet in relationships, he really does lack empathy. So I don't get it!!!!! How can he feel so bad for so many people, and yet not feel bad for pain that he himself causes?? Any ideas? It makes little sense to me. Maybe it's just a defense mechanism that keeps him from getting too close.

 

When you go to this place of wondering if he will have an epiphany of some sorts and miraculously change, it's pretty tall order for a person with a variety of personality, character and addiction issues.

 

I need to keep this in the forefront of my mind. To me it seems easy -- just be a better person!! But maybe it's really not that easy.

[notalady]

 

 

I was so surprised when he told me that he's narcissistic. I read a lot about it a year and a half ago, because I came across it while trying to figure out what to do about him, and I was googling a lot because I could just make no sense of it. I even texted him an article about it once, but I doubt he remembers. The first time he mentioned it himself was this past summer right after he had watched a Dr. Drew episode about it lol. He said I'm narcissistic too, which surprised me even further, that he would have put any thought at all into whether I am or I'm not. He's brought it up a couple times since then, using it to explain why he acts the way he acts. He said he doesn't want to be. I don't think he fully is, because he has an extremely soft heart and deep empathy for people in need. He's not just mimicking the empathy, I am certain. He cried one time while talking about paying rent for his friend who couldn't afford it, because he felt sorry for him. And he cried another time because he wanted to do something for the homeless that the law wouldn't allow (again, trying to leave out identifying details here), and snot was literally dripping from his nose (gross, i know, sorry... just pointing out that it was very real). So he's not TOTALLY narcissistic. And yet in relationships, he really does lack empathy. So I don't get it!!!!! How can he feel so bad for so many people, and yet not feel bad for pain that he himself causes?? Any ideas? It makes little sense to me. Maybe it's just a defense mechanism that keeps him from getting too close.

 

Sorry but I don't buy it. It's easy to talk the talk when it comes to empathy but how one demonstrates it in behaviour is ultimately the real thing. It's easy to say "I feel so bad for them" and even shed tears, but what did he do for his friend if he's so broken hearted about his situation and clearly so close to him that he'd cry over it??? What did he do for the homeless people that the law DOES allow? I hardly believe that all that he can do to help the homeless requires him breaking the law.

 

And most important of all, he's NOT empathetic when it comes to you, he's cruel, he's hurtful. This is not the behaviour of someone who is TRULY KIND and EMPATHETIC!!! I've met guys who genuinely are, and they'd never pull this kind of BS on someone they claim to love or have feelings for, or even someone they DON'T have feelings for.

 

As for "narcissism", again, I would refrain from trying to label him if I were you. Just yet another excuse you're making for his bad behaviour, like oh well he really doesn't want to behave so badly, it's his "condition" that makes him do these!!! Come on, really?? You believe that?!

 

Unless he's been diagnosed by a psychiatrist of any of these conditions you think he has, assume he doesn't have them.

 

EDIT to add, I know plenty of people who will lend their friends a helping hand when they are in need, I know plenty that volunteer to help disadvantaged children and homeless people, as well as donate things and money. No tears or drama or declarations of who they feel bad for these people required, if one wants to help people, they just go ahead and do it.

 

Also, was he drunk when he told you these things? I'm assuming so since he wouldn't talk to you when he's sober. If so, that explains the highly emotional reaction (tears and all). So other than having a cry and talk about things emotionally when he's being drunk (as many people do), what did he actually do for these people that makes you think he's empathetic?

 

I find it hard to believe anything that anyone says when drunk, unless they verify it in action when sober.