The Ups and Downs of Loving a Commitment-Phobe

[lostlove76]

ThatwasThen, I'm sorry, but you just have no clue what you're talking about. I have no idea where you got that this was some sexual attachment for either one of us. To start with, if it was about sex, why would he keep calling all this time when we can't actually HAVE sex being 4 hours apart? Secondly, when he was here, it was never about sex either. Before we became exclusive during those first 9 months, I wouldn't even hardly have sex with him because I just didn't want to unless we were in an exclusive bf/gf relationship. And he was totally fine with that, he respected it, he never ever pushed the issue. During the 6 months he was here and we were exclusive before he moved, we spent ALL that time together, and sex was never ever the main focus. Usually he was too drunk to be able to by the time we went to bed. So I just don't know where you're getting all this from. I'm sorry to sound so agitated, but it annoys me when YOU guys rewrite a history that you really weren't privy too. This is not helpful.

 

We were physically affectionate before he moved, for sure (holding hands, hugging all the time, cuddling) but the emotional connection was always at the forefront. On top of constantly talking about how much we loved each other and meant to one another, we talked about anything and everything, from the random and mundane to the personal. We laughed, we joked, we talked about serious things. We had similar views on the world. It was all there.

 

So yes, I will continue to defend it, because I'm not going to be convinced that something didn't happen when it did. Reading things like what you wrote almost makes me want to go back to him, because I worry that I've let all this negative talk get into my head and filter my view of him. I'm not going to do that, because I have my own reasons for needing to stay away. But the things that you're insisting just aren't the truth, and you couldn't possibly know that without having been there.

[annie24]

So yes, I will continue to defend it, because I'm not going to be convinced that something didn't happen when it did. Reading things like what you wrote almost makes me want to go back to him, because I worry that I've let all this negative talk get into my head and filter my view of him. I'm not going to do that, because I have my own reasons for needing to stay away. But the things that you're insisting just aren't the truth, and you couldn't possibly know that without having been there.

 

ultimately, we're all just trying to help you. Please don't go back to him because of what we think about him or whatever. It's about you and the fact that he was not meeting your needs and he has big problems you can't solve. You deserve better and a better life than that.

[lostlove76]

Thanks Annie. I just don't get why some go out of their way to belittle what we had and what it meant and what we felt. I won't call out anyone or anything specifically. But it really bothers me. As if I'm not already hurt and confused enough, to then be told that everything was a complete fantasy or lie, when that is just simply not true. And it does make me worry that I've allowed the opinions of others to taint my view of him. There are obviously reasons I needed to break away, but lack of love was just simply not one of them. I think I've said this before, but if he were to come here and talk about everything I've said and done, or all the things I've not done, and everyone only had his side of things, I can guarantee that it would sound like I didn't love him. People could say "well if she loved you, she wouldn't have called you a horrible person" or "she wouldn't ignore your phone calls" or "she would have put her anxiety aside and drove down to see you since you work full time and she doesn't." But none of that would be true, because I DO love him. I've pretended not to care at times, I've told him it was over a hundred times, I've ignored his calls, I've said horrible things to him, I've tried to make him jealous, there were times I wouldn't go over to his house because he didn't call as early as I thought he should have. None of it meant I didn't love him with everything I have, even though it could easily look like that from the outside.

 

I truly appreciate all the care and help I've received here, but this ONE issue just drives me nuts. It's completely counterproductive, it's not the truth, and it's not especially kind.

[Realitynut]

cuz I know you're feeling down....and not understood. It's not easy to let go....you're now in the area what's called 'false hope'...

[LAYAAN]

Thanks Annie. I just don't get why some go out of their way to belittle what we had and what it meant and what we felt. I won't call out anyone or anything specifically. But it really bothers me. As if I'm not already hurt and confused enough, to then be told that everything was a complete fantasy or lie, when that is just simply not true. ...

I truly appreciate all the care and help I've received here, but this ONE issue just drives me nuts. It's completely counterproductive, it's not the truth, and it's not especially kind.

It is possible that what you felt (that this relationship was), was deeper than what we are able to gather from your posts. But what the posters here are saying is "Even if the relationship was great in the beginning, you have to see how he has been treating you and don't continue to hang on, but leave." You say that you have hope that he will change because of how he has been in the beginning and what could be, so you are hanging on.

Please don't get frustrated that we are not able to get your point. We are making our opinions of him and your relationship with him based only on what we get to read here. And that is the challenge you may have on any internet forum. Posters here truly feel that you should get out that's why they are hoping that you will see their point of view.

You will wake up some day when you are ready to take action and get out. I'm not sure what would "hitting rock bottom" mean to you for you to decide to get out.

 

Personally, these were my reasons to finally end the madness. See if any of these resonate with you -

- He got angry when I tried to address the problem and said "We should end it. I can't give you a marriage."

- He didn't want to commit (for whatever his reasons were. And only now I truly understand what the other posters were saying to me back then - "His reasons don't matter. You have to look at the fact that he is not willing to commit to you. And for that reason alone, you should leave.")

- I was getting old and really wanted to be married. The longer I stayed in a poor relationship, the longer I kept myself from being in a happy relationship/the possibility of being in one. I was fast approaching an age where if I wasn't married in my culture, I would have definitely ended up single and lonely.

- I was tired of getting treated poorly. I wanted my needs/desires to be recognized (and met). I wanted respect and love.

- I lost hope when he said that he couldn't marry me. (And I wasn't okay with the alternative - which was a phone call once in a while, a lunch once in a while. I wanted more and he didn't want that with me)

[lostlove76]

Thanks Realitynut and Layaan. Hugs. Layaan, I already got out. I'm not communicating with him anymore. So in that sense, it's over. I'm just still having a hard time with it. I wake up and fall asleep picturing him with all these different women, and it hurts. Because I've been unwilling to talk to him, I have no idea what he's thinking or feeling or doing. So I assume the worst. The connection we had is now broken and gone, due to my ending things and refusing to answer the phone. Any smidgen of trust I used to have in him is gone. My respect for him is gone. I can't respect an admitted womanizer. It's all over, and my heart just has to catch up. I've been having okay days and bad days, and yesterday and today are bad days. Maybe I got a little too snappy in my last post because I was having a bad day. But I just have to keep defending what we had over and over, and I do get frustrated that no one seems to understand. I don't know how else to explain how things really were.

 

ETA:

Maybe I'll make a list like yours later on of all the reasons I finally had to end it.

[Realitynut]

The connection we had is now broken and gone, due to my ending things and refusing to answer the phone.

 

Sweetheart....this is where your thinking has gone haywire.

 

The connection has NOT been lost due to YOU ending things and refusing to answer the phone.

The connection was lost when he moved away!

 

The connection was lost everytime he said he'd come and get you....and didn't.

The connection was lost when he was on the dating sites.

The connection was lost when the ONLY time he talked to you...was when he was drunk! (ie. NO REAL CONNECTION...drunken communication.)

The connection was lost when he said he'd get you a job...but then changed his mind.

The connection was lost when he "kissed" another girl.

 

LostLove...the connection was lost the minute the infatuation was over. When you said he never talked to you when he was sober...I was dumbfounded! I've dated drunks before... and said NEVER again!

The reason he never came to get you...because he HAD TO BE SOBER to come and drive you back. And when he's SOBER....he doesn't WANT you! All your DEEP intimate conversations, were always when he was DRUNK. That does not make a TRUE relationship...no matter how TRUE it seemed to you...it wasn't the same for HIM! You could love him til the cows came home...but he ONLY had those 'feelings' for you when he had been drinking? What was his feelings when he was sober and in his RIGHT mind?

 

Honestly?

 

He never talked to you.

He never came to get you.

 

Remember that.

 

It is NOT because of YOU that things ended.

It is NOT because you gave him an ultimatum.

It is NOT because you didn't answer the phone.

 

Your relationship did NOT end because of anything YOU did!! Please, Please, read this. Go back and read your journal from DAY 1!!!! Everytime you're lonely...and caving...reread. Every word.

 

Your relationship ended 7 months ago, when he decided to move away from you....and not take you with him.

 

He DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME FEELINGS AS YOU DO!

 

Sure...he loves you. He's LONELY. It sounds good. It's easy to SAY!

 

It's the 'follow up' with actions that really PROVE he loves you....that he can't do. And believe me....will NEVER be able to do!

 

Never. Ever.

 

Make a list of reasons why you finally had to end it! ugh. No.

 

Make a list of reasons why it is over....and why you have to move on. HE ENDED THINGS BECAUSE OF HIS ACTIONS.

 

Make a list of his good qualities. And his bad.

Make a list of how often he makes you happy....and how often he make you upset, lonely, depressed, cry. (and I don't mean 2 years ago...I mean in the last 7 months!)

Make a list of what a GOOD man would look like...your ideal...and see how he measures up.

 

Figure out after that list...if you are idealizing him. Romanticizing him. He talked the talk...but didn't walk the walk.

 

Course....we have all told you this already.

 

I feel for you. It is hard. But moving on is never easy, for one who is in denial, and thinks THEY are the one who caused the break up. OH MY NO!

[reinventmyself]

Because if you could twist yourself up into a pretzel and somehow take the blame or part of it, then you feel you have some sort of control over fixing it or changing something:

 

If you do *A maybe the outcome would have been different.

If you do *B maybe the outcome would have been different

Maybe if you hadn't `fussed' the outcome might have been different.

Maybe if you said it another language the outcome might have been different.

If by you taking the blame might change the outcome.

 

But you see, it's his actions that ended this relationship.

 

You warned him for months "if you do A, B or C this is over"

With that he continued to do A, B and C over and over again.

 

So standing on your head and saying it differently won't change the outcome - because you only have control of your part.

Not his, obviously.

 

Moving away worked for him, drinking works for him and doing everything you have asked him not do to worked for him too or he wouldn't have done it.

He got you to do the dirty work.

[boltnrun]

Outstanding, Realitynut.

 

I could not fault anything you had to say.

 

You are absolutely right. HE ended the connection when he chose the bottle over the OP. HE ended it when he chose to move far away and did NOTHING that he promised he would do.

 

Lostlove, yes, you didn't drive to him. But did you promise him over and over that you would, and then repeatedly break that promise? Did you kiss other men? Are you trolling dating sites? Did you tell him you kiss lots of men?

 

NO!

 

HE did those things.

 

Yes, you two had a wonderful connection...until HE broke it.

 

You answering the phone will NOT undo all he has done to kill your connection. All that will do is put a temporary bandaid on your anxiety. The same old issues would still be there as soon as you hung up the phone. And I'm sure you know it.

 

Yes, it's going to hurt. For a while. BUT...isn't it better to hurt for a short while, then heal, than it would be to try to put on blinders and cover your ears shouting "DAHDAHDAH" trying not to see and hear the things he's doing that are just NOT right?? And sit there with your phone in your hand while having the dating site up on your computer screen waiting for his calls while monitoring his dating site activity? Does that seem like a good way to live?

 

OK, enough questions.

 

I hope you power down the phone and computer, have a nice cup of coffee or tea and relax with a good book or maybe cue up a Netflix movie you enjoy. And be kind to yourself.

[lostlove76]

Thanks you guys, those last three posts really really help. I'm going to read them all a few more times tonight just to make sure it sets in. You're all correct! HE caused the break in connection with all the crappy things he did. It all worked for him but it didn't work for me, and I did warn him of this over and over and over again. I warned him I would quit talking to him if he did certain things, and I finally followed through. He's the one who screwed it up by refusing to be a better person. Hopefully he is fully aware of this. And if he wanted to reconcile, being constantly on the dating site since we quit talking is certainly not the way to gain trust and have me answer the phone. You can't continually mistreat someone and have them remain a saint for you. He finally pushed it to the limit, and I had to be done. That's what happens when you betray someone and break their trust so completely.

 

Thank you thank you thank you for helping me see this. I hope I don't backtrack into feeling like its my fault again. I'll take screenshots of those three posts to keep and reread.

[reinventmyself]

I learned this the hard way.

When my marriage was falling apart, I kept saying if you do a,b or c, it affects how I feel about you and this marriage.

He continued

Then it escalated. If you do a, b and c, I have no choice but to end this marriage.

He continued.

He continued doing everything he knew would make me leave while simultaneously telling me how much he loved me. It was a really confusing time. If he loved me why did he continue to do these very things? He was either stupid or calling my bluff . . but ultimately I ended the marriage. . I think.

 

It took a while for the fog to clear but I can't help but wonder if he did those things so I would be the one to walk.

He gets to be the victim, somehow thinking he's blame free.

Besides he 'said' he loved me over and over, right? - but 'did' the exact opposite.

 

In the end I got to do the dirty work and now get the wear the title of the bad guy.

I'll never really know. . but it's possible. But staying was not an option.

 

I don't know if this is your case. . But it's a possibility in my case and I've seen similar dynamics things since in other relationships.

[lostlove76]

I know that some guys will do that for sure, because they don't want to man up and do the honest thing, and don't want to be the bad guy. I can see why you might wonder if that's what happened in your marriage. But it's just as possible that he thought you were bluffing and wouldn't really leave, or that he "couldn't" control himself from doing certain things due to his own issues, or that he felt he didn't deserve you so he self-sabotaged, or that it's just human nature to take for granted those we love and not put in the efforts to change our ways.

 

With mine, I really don't think he was trying to push me out the door. He's been doing these same types of things for the whole two years in one form or another, and he's always tried to hang on and keep me around, even coming back more committed those couple of times. As for our last two phone conversations though, maybe he was. Maybe he knew he was being a lying jacka$$ and felt guilty for it. Or maybe he wanted his freedom to troll the dating sites for a while without me breathing down his neck about it. Or maybe he got cold feet and had a freak-out like he is prone to do (which he then usually regrets once he's calmed down again). If he really wanted me completely gone I don't think he would still be calling - well, he's tried two nights, last week the day after I sent the text that I couldn't talk to him anymore, and two nights ago. Before that, I kept saying it was over on many many occasions and he still kept calling frequently. Maybe what it boils down to is that he wants me without the commitment. I don't know if I mentioned this here before, but my friend suggested that maybe he is poly-minded, and I think that nails it. He can love me to his fullest extent (pleeeease nobody dispute this, I can't handle defending it yet again today) and yet still want to play around and be with others whenever he wants and not really see it as a problem unless he gets caught. Which is NOT okay, and I don't really like these poly-minded selfish people. But I think that's how he is, because he's cheated on everyone he's ever been with, including during his marriage. And he usually has short flings rather than long relationships, and the relationships he's had have all been very on/off as he treated them the same way he's treated me. He admits he has commitment issues and that he's narcissistic. I guess I thought that he could change for me. I thought too, well he's a bit older now, maybe he'll be more likely to settle down. But he still acts like he's in his early 20's. It doesn't help that he's extremely good-looking and oh so sweet and charming and can therefore get literally any girl he wants. I can't imagine anyone turning him down at all. So unless he comes to the firm decision that he wants to settle down, or unless he loses all his hair or something and becomes less gorgeous (no offense at all to anyone with thinning hair!!! I just can't think of anything else that would change his looks), he'll probably just continue doing what he's doing. I do think he really did try for a while to be good, like staying off the site for over a month and calling more, but he can't sustain it.

[reinventmyself]

Well. . .it's all water under the bridge, but my ex still thinks he wants me back. Bizarre.

I laugh because I am pretty sure he couldn't stand me for a minute.

Because now I have a voice and boundaries. That clearly wouldn't work for him.

 

It doesn't matter who's/who or what's/what in the grand scheme of things.

Bottom line is it wasn't working. That's all that really matters.

 

"I can't imagine anyone turning him down at all."

Don't bet on that one, Missy. Pretty sure I'd cross the street if I saw him coming. Don't care how cute he is

[lostlove76]

Lol. Your last line made me laugh. Thanks for that

 

I'm sure it feels somewhat good to know that your ex still wants you back. I'm sure you feel a certain strength in knowing better than to go there.

 

I honestly think that *most* men (not all) are juvenile and selfish and feel entitled to having things their way. It's just the way of the world. Women will bend over backwards to make them happy, and they know this. They have all the power in relationships. Until the woman finally has the strength to leave them behind, and then they want the woman back. I see it over and over and over again. I know there are better men out there than that - most of the men in my family (including extended family) are good men. But the selfish entitled jerks are all too common. It's very depressing.

[notalady]

I wouldn't even say that's the case for MOST men. Just some men.

 

Most men I'm friends with or have had long term relationships with are not like that. And most married men I known (friends and colleagues) are caring and prioritise their family to their own wants.

[lostlove76]

Maybe I see things through a certain filter and just see the bad guys. Or maybe I've just dated/met so many of them. I hope most are not like that. I guess it's a case of the jerks ruining the image of the whole gender (for me). I do know a lot of good guys as well - 98% of whom are taken. So maybe I should restate: seems like most of the guys my age who are single (or playing the field) are jerks.

[notalady]

That's true, good guys are snapped up fast. But there are still plenty of good single ones out there. Step one though, is to have strong boundaries and criteria of what you're looking for, which helps you filter out the jerks and others that don't meet what you're looking for. Such as your current ex. As long as you're wasting time on guys who are not worthwhile (jerks or whatever), you're missing the opportunity to meet good guys.

[lostlove76]

Very true. I think boundaries are what I most need to learn and work on. I'm really reaaaallly bad about letting my boundaries get crossed, even when I have no intention of letting that happen. I do hope that from now on I'll drop a guy the second I figure out he's a jerk. I was already hooked when I saw any red flags with this guy. He came across as being a really good bet! I even remember specifically thinking "Wow, here's a good guy who is completely available (emotionally and otherwise)." Because in the beginning, he was texting every day, good morning and good night, and I was the one who limited us seeing each other to every other day. He didn't get back on the dating site where we met at all after the first time of meeting. He always replied to texts. He stayed home all the time and didn't seem to have any other girls floating around on the periphery of his life at all. His phone never ever rang or went off when we were together unless it was his mom or about work. He seemed all in, completely. I had no clue this was who he was.

[boltnrun]

Very true. I think boundaries are what I most need to learn and work on. I'm really reaaaallly bad about letting my boundaries get crossed, even when I have no intention of letting that happen. I do hope that from now on I'll drop a guy the second I figure out he's a jerk. I was already hooked when I saw any red flags with this guy. He came across as being a really good bet! I even remember specifically thinking "Wow, here's a good guy who is completely available (emotionally and otherwise)." Because in the beginning, he was texting every day, good morning and good night, and I was the one who limited us seeing each other to every other day. He didn't get back on the dating site where we met at all after the first time of meeting. He always replied to texts. He stayed home all the time and didn't seem to have any other girls floating around on the periphery of his life at all. His phone never ever rang or went off when we were together unless it was his mom or about work. He seemed all in, completely. I had no clue this was who he was.

 

Even though for the first 9 months he would only call you his "friend"?

 

I would have called that a red flag. Also the fact that he's cheated in every single relationship he's been in. And only had short flings. Two more red flags.

 

But maybe you're better at spotting them now, which is good progress.

[annie24]

LL - Have you read the book "He's just not that into you?" I really like it (the book, not the movie). The advice is very simplistic, but I found it helpful. I also like to overanalyze a guy's actions but at the heart of things, if he's not acting properly, then he's just not that into you. For whatever reason, it doesn't really matter.

[LAYAAN]

Thanks Realitynut and Layaan. Hugs. Layaan, I already got out. I'm not communicating with him anymore. So in that sense, it's over. I'm just still having a hard time with it. I wake up and fall asleep picturing him with all these different women, and it hurts. Because I've been unwilling to talk to him, I have no idea what he's thinking or feeling or doing. So I assume the worst. The connection we had is now broken and gone, due to my ending things and refusing to answer the phone. Any smidgen of trust I used to have in him is gone. My respect for him is gone. I can't respect an admitted womanizer. It's all over, and my heart just has to catch up. I've been having okay days and bad days, and yesterday and today are bad days. Maybe I got a little too snappy in my last post because I was having a bad day. But I just have to keep defending what we had over and over, and I do get frustrated that no one seems to understand. I don't know how else to explain how things really were.

 

ETA:

Maybe I'll make a list like yours later on of all the reasons I finally had to end it.

Good for you! Now stay disconnected from him. Maintain NC. It is going to hurt like ***. You will have good, bad, horrible days. But you have to keep walking through all that till you come out the other end, victorious. Do not go back to him. Things were not working out between you two. That is why it ended. It is much better to stay single, available, and whole than be treated poorly by a man who himself doesn't have his act together.

 

I had atleast 2 reasons not to go back to him -

- It ended because he couldn't commit. Going back to him would have meant accepting his non-commitment. I wasn't okay with that. When he pulled the plug there was no possibility of negotiation. He was basically saying "Accept my non-commitment or you are free to go, but I can't give you marriage." My self-esteem was really hurt. Am I not good enough to be married to? I'm not some cheap, lowly, trashy woman to accept his mis-treatment. Going back meant I would be giving him free reign to mistreat me even further. I already was sorry that I took on so much abuse when I should have gotten out. Didn't want any more of that. And I didn't see that he would change into a loving man if I went back to him.

- So much emotional damage was done leading upto this event that even if he had to come back, I was hurt because of his behavior and had developed strong trust issues. So, I knew it would not lead to marriage, anyway. It was much easier to just cut my losses and start afresh with someone new.

I was unmarried for 2 years after that event, but never contacted him again. In fact, I cut every man who showed disrespect and lack of consistency after this episode.

 

I know it hurts you to think about who he must have been out with. Its going to be a while until he finds some meaningful relationship. He will just try to find the next weakling so he can abuse her like he abused you.

[lostlove76]

Layaan, your two reasons for not going back are a couple of mine of as well - the noncommitment and so much damage done. I need to sit down and make my lists later if I have time. I'm feeling a bit guilty because he called again last night a couple times and I again didn't answer. I feel mean and rude But like we said before, I did warn him this would happen. Maybe he didn't take me seriously, but I did give him plenty of heads up that I would have to quit talking to him if [he didn't come get me, spent time on dating site, messed around with other girls]. He knew the things that hurt and bothered me and he did them anyway. So I'm sorry for him, but now he has to live with the consequences. His mad-rush dating site activity has slowed down, which had me worried that maybe he found someone. But then why would he be calling me. So maybe he's realizing that meaningful connections aren't so easy to come by. Like I told him in my last text (which I don't even know if he remembers), he chose having shallow flings with random girls over what he and I had. That was his decision. He can't have both.

 

Aside from feeling a bit guilty, I really felt no urge to answer the phone last night. I have zero interest in making friendly small talk, and I don't think I could go back to the lovey dovey talk since all trust has been so horribly broken. And I certainly couldn't believe any of his promises. So there's just no point in talking. An apology would be nice to hear, but wouldn't really get us anywhere.

 

Quick question though: You know how sometimes people will hit rock bottom and lose something or everything and then realize they need to change. So IF he realized what he lost and was ready to commit and make the changes (please just this once humor me and believe that our trust and connection was as I've stated, just for the sake of this question), how would I know?? Since I refuse to answer the phone. Would he know that the thing to do would be to drive up here and show me? I know I shouldn't take him back under any circumstances, but if he completely changed his ways and fully committed, I still would at this point. That would mean living in the same place, no other girls or dating sites, no periods of withdrawal. Full commitment.

[reinventmyself]

deleted . . . . .

[reinventmyself]

I'm sure it feels somewhat good to know that your ex still wants you back

 

 

No, it's not a compliment at all.

 

He doesn't define me and his twisted reasons for thinking we should be together doesn't make me feel one way or another.

 

If I had to pick I will go with in not being a compliment, due to the fact he is attracted to selfless, 'ditzy' women. (quote from my sons)

 

No, not a compliment at all, because I am neither.

[reinventmyself]

I honestly think that *most* men (not all) are juvenile and selfish and feel entitled to having things their way. It's just the way of the world. Women will bend over backwards to make them happy, and they know this. They have all the power in relationships. .

 

NOT true! Not in my world.