The Ups and Downs of Loving a Commitment-Phobe

[boltnrun]

His "love" includes:

Cheating

Lying

Deception

Broken promises

Substance abuse

Deliberately keeping you away from him

Blaming you for not being there

 

Have I left anything out?

 

It just makes me sad to think despite all that you honestly believe this man loved you more than he ever loved anyone else. I shudder to think how he must have treated those women he DIDN'T love.

 

Yeah, my ex claimed he loved me. He also claims that the women he currently beats and cheats on is the love of his life. His ex prior to me was so badly beaten by him that his sister, who moved into the house he'd been living in with that woman, had to repaint the walls in the hallway because the woman's blood on the walls wouldn't wash out. And he claimed THAT woman was also the great love of his life.

 

I really hope this doesn't turn out to be the best a man ever treats you. Because it's so little. It's sad that you would even consider giving him another chance if he calls and apologizes prettily enough and makes more empty promises.

 

I also hope your parents are being supportive. I hope they are telling you that you are worth so much more.

[reinventmyself]

But the REAL reason is.....you get a little satisfaction thinking..."he wants me. He does care" or he wouldn't be calling.

 

You WANT him to call. You WANT to not answer, cuz it gives you SOME power. Like "i'm strong. You want me...but I don't want you...." that kind of thought process.

 

But that gives him the power to define you. As if `if he calls, then maybe I am ok afterall?' But who is he, really!?

 

It becomes this vicious cycle you need to break.

Besides, when you think of it, an alcoholic sweet talker doesn't have the power to give you your self worth.

That comes from you. . From you having enough self respect to say `no more' ` I want off the crazy train'

 

That's what defines you! And gives you back some of self respect you keep throwing away down this empty well with no return.

 

Besides the best response is no response at all. He's already proven that he comes unhinged when she doesn't answer. If it were me . . I'd change my number.

[Silverbirch]

Si think maybe - and perhaps I'm projecting my own self here - that it's so important to feel that he loves you - that maybe inside up u don't feel loveable and that you don't have a lot else in your life - and that's not really true.

[lostlove76]

Thanks everyone. I would like to respond to everything, but I still have a headache. I'm hearing everything you're saying and letting it sink in. I will miss him. He's been such a huge part of my heart for two whole years. I wish I could just turn off the feelings and not love him and not care anymore and not miss the good times. I almost sent him another text a few minutes ago telling him how much he's destroyed me. I typed it all out, but I didn't send it. It's possible that it would get to him, but it's just as possible that he wouldn't even care. I've said it all before. I do WANT him to care and feel what he's done and feel regret over losing me. Yes, when he calls, that's what I imagine him to be feeling. And it does make me feel some small sense of power not to answer. And it makes me feel like it will just make him feel the regret more. Which I would hope would turn him into a better person. But I'm sure that's not what goes on in his mind. He can't even think clearly 50% of the time because he's always wasted. It's sad to me, but I shouldn't even feel sorry for him, because he's happy and living his life exactly as he wants to.

 

ETA:

I'll respond to a few specific things later or tomorrow, because y'all make really good points. I like responding, because it makes me think through the issues more deeply and figure things out. And I just appreciate so much the time and care you all are putting into helping me. I think I've reached the point of being done because of this thread. It's eye-opening.

[notalady]

Annie, I'll think about it (blocking him). I totally get your reasoning. Just not sure I'm ready for that. It does make me feel better when he tries to call and I don't answer. And I won't answer. But like bolt said, how could he call again after this?

 

That's what you said before, that he can call but you won't answer. But eventually you'll cave after he tries time after time. You're leaving all the control to him by allowing him to call and to test you over and over, whenever he wants.

[notalady]

Maybe it's going to take some time (days? weeks? months?) to quit having this underlying hope that he'll change. That he'll call and say the right things and then follow up. Hence the need to block him, as you are saying, I know. But maybe I'll get there. I'm just not there quite yet. I'm still working on accepting the situation as it is.

 

And honestly, as crappy as it felt to hear that stuff last night, I really needed to hear it didn't I? Otherwise I would have still be living in the delusion. I needed to know the truth. And I wouldn't have the truth if I hadn't answered the phone.

 

You have the truth now, you heard it yourself, and you're still "not quite there yet". What does it take for you to get there? Letting him hurt you one more time? Then you think "I'm not quite there yet", then you let him do it again. How many times does it take for you to wake up and decide it's enough? A lot apparently.

[lostlove76]

I was just saying the same thing to my dad. Like what's it gonna take for me to fully drop him? I'm saying I'm going to, but I'm sure he doesn't believe me, I don't quite believe myself, and no one else believes me. What is wrong with me that I'm still hoping he'll change after learning that he DEFINITELY cheated on me? Before, I was just worried about him cheating and I never really knew. But now I know. So why am I still hoping that he'll love me enough to do the right thing? Still hoping he'll call, whether I answer or not. I just want him to show that he cares.

 

Time might be the only thing that makes me gain true clarity about this. My head is telling me what I need to know and do, but my heart still loves him and remembers all he good times and wants that back. Maybe this is normal, I don't know. It's "normal" for a lot of us, to have a hard time letting go. Some are able to just be strong and be done and not look back. But I clearly can't do that. It's ridiculous. The bad should outweigh the good here, by a long shot, right? I guess it just made me feel so so good when it was good - way better than I've ever felt before in my life. I've been with some nice loving guys, and also with a lot of jerks. But even the loving guys didn't come anywhere close to making me feel what I felt with him. I've read that this is what happens in relationships with narcissists. And he does say that he is one. So maybe that's it.

[notalady]

Reinventyourself: Thank you. So true, what you said. I'll be damaged from this for a long time, I'm afraid. Yes, it's time to stop any further damage.

 

Bolt: I don't know why it's so hard to let go of the hope. I also don't know why it's so hard to see things the way you guys are seeing them, the part that was leading up to this. It felt SO real to me, all the love and connection. And I know he felt it too. I don't understand why no one can see that. Yes he's a crappy person who does crappy things. And was probably doing things behind my back (before this latest girl). But it really all felt so real to me, and we really did have that connection. Just because he's a horrible selfish person doesn't mean he didn't love me in his own way. He loved me more than anyone else in his life; I was closer to him than anyone else. I just don't want to diminish the whole entire thing as being a complete and total lie, because 1) I don't think it's true, and 2) it's really harmful to me to view it that way. That's why I keep harping on it I guess.

 

Anyways. I need to somehow let go of the hope, but that's a really really difficult thing to do for some reason.

 

 

It's like your self-worth hangs by the thread on whether he loves you and you refute anyone who says otherwise. I can see it, you are arguing with people who says otherwise because if you admitted he never loved you, suddenly you become "unworthy" and "unlovable", that must be why he didn't love you right? You're trying to hold on to your self worth by denying the facts. It's like if someone who is incapable of love loves you, it makes you worthwhile, it makes you special.

 

Well it doesn't.

 

Someone with high self esteem and self worthiness, and self respect don't need someone else's love and approval to validate their worthiness. They KNOW they are worthy of love and respect, they know what healthy love and respect looks like and know they can get it. So when faced with guys like your guy, they go "well this is ridiculous, I don't have to take this crap, I can do so much better, I'm outta here".

 

Whereas someone with low self esteem and think they're not worthy go "oh no, I must not be worthy of love if they don't love me! Look they say this and did that, so they must have SOME love for me! I better hold onto it!"

 

I really suggest you see a therapist to work on your self esteem and self worth.

 

Also I'm not sure if you saw my post about the abuser's "love" for the abused. Whether he loves or loved you in his own way doesn't matter, the way he "loves" someone is crap. It's bad for you.

[boltnrun]

I'm curious to know what your parents think about the shenanigans this guy has been pulling for the past 7 months.

 

Or have you only told them the "good" part and left out the whole lying, cheating alcoholic who breaks promises parts?

 

Because if it were me and it was my daughter who was getting jerked around, you best believe I'd be giving my opinion.

 

Or maybe they think it's best to back off and let you make your own decisions?

[lostlove76]

Notalady: I think you're right about my feelings of self-worth. I think you described it perfectly. I did see your post about abusers. I almost used it on one of my posts about him loving me, to say that people love in the way in which they're capable. Abusers have a horrible way of showing their love, obviously, but they still do love. Just because it looks different from the norm, and is unhealthy and awful, the love part still exists. We don't always acting lovingly to those we love. In fact, we sometimes act most awful with them. Doesn't mean that the love isn't there.

 

Bolt: My parents have been extremely supportive and patient with me through all of this. I tell them everything, all the good and all the bad. They know every single detail of everything that has happened over the last two years. They go back and forth with what they think and say. They know how much I love him and wanted for it to work. They also do believe I deserve better. But maybe their advice is more of the let-me-do-what-i-want-to-do variety. They wanted it to work for my sake, while at the same time, not feeling like he is good for me. It's hard to explain their stance on it. My dad is more lenient with his opinion on things such as the dating site. He thought he was on there just looking and it was harmless. The alcoholism really bothers both my parents. My mom feels that he really does love me but that he is messed up and has major issues. She sees him how I see him - that he really does have a lot of good in him, but that he's also selfish. Hope that explains it. She got frustrated with me earlier for putting up with all this for the past two years. She agrees it's time to be done, but thinks I should have been done a long time ago.

[LAYAAN]

OP, reading even bits and pieces of your journal brought sad memories and the anxiety back!

My question to you is this - does your dignity matter to you (whatever is left of it, ofcourse)? What is this man giving to you that is so precious that you have to hang on for? Do you believe that what you have in this man can't be found elsewhere, at all?

I encourage you to tap into the last bits of dignity that you have left and leave before you are dumped and called a bone-head by this man for not seeing where this (non-)relationship was going all this time. You have a support group here in us. You can do this. It doesn't matter whether you get married in future or not. It doesn't matter if you find a man to love you romantically or not. With or without a man in your life - you have to still live with yourself and when you lose respect for yourself, looking at yourself in the mirror gets difficult. When you lose respect for yourself, aint no guy going to respect you, sister. You will just end up attracting more of the same breed.

What hurts me to this day and continues to haunt me is - I could not respect the woman I had become during those 9 months. I was so desperate for him to like me, love me, accept me that I was willing to put up with emotional torture for absolutely no gains. Whatever little crumbs I got from him, made me feel like I was okay, I was acceptable, I was loveable and those were the moments of high. But boy he could really cut deep with his harsh tongue, whenever he wanted to. I know that he never loved me and because I accepted his poor behavior - he never respected me. He would have never married me. He just was using me to heal his bruised ego. I still keep asking myself this question - why did I put up with it? I have no answer.

I don't want any woman to be what I was in those 9 months. There is no reason to put up with this drama, dear. Leave before you go insane.

[Realitynut]

Don't beat yourself up too badly. I've been doing this for 2 years....and my bf...or ex....has been 100x worse.

 

I kept telling everyone, oh he won't call...he's done....he's over me...

And they'd say...you'll hear from him again. And I'd say...ohhhh noooo.

 

And he'd call...and i'd be oh so happy.

 

Cept as the years went on...he got worse. Things have only been good maybe 10 percent of the time. He did send me a pic tonight of where he was eating. I hadn't heard from him in over a week...but...I made a comment on something he posted on fb. So he probably thought...oh...she's gonna talk to me now.

 

Why can't I be stronger? Who knows.

 

I do know, that one time as I was walking out of my therapists room...I broke down crying on her shoulder...and asked..."am I worthwhile?"

 

Yeah...so. When no one...and I mean NO ONE in your life has ever made you feel like you were worthwhile...it's hard to get that 'worthiness' built up.

 

(I mean, my dad told me once I was no better than a piece of ....just for an example)

[Realitynut]

wow....exactly what Layaan says is how I feel too. I just hope this time next year I'll be free of him...and these feelings of 'love'....Maybe we should call it false love. Like false hope. It's not really love...even tho at one time it was. It has now turned into an obsession....something you once had....and now cling to for dear life.

 

I envy those women and men who can just say...OH WELL...and move on.

[missmarple]

what's it gonna take for me to fully drop him?

 

As I've said before, this situation will be over only when he decides it's over...because you're so wrapped up in all this drama, you never will.

 

You remind me of a close friend who'd been involved with a married guy for 5 years and she always decided to leave him, like every 3 months. Every time she made that decision I comforted her..at least the first 10 times...and then she always took him back. She never really left him..until he disappeared from her life completely..I imagine he found someone new.

 

That's what's going to happen with this guy, too..because, by now, it's obvious that you'll never give up on him.

[lostlove76]

Thanks for helping me through the day, everyone, I really appreciate it. I'll read the latest comments tomorrow and reply, because I need to go to bed early and get some sleep, it's been a crappy day. But your support helped a lot, thank you so much!

[boltnrun]

I have to say, I find the belief that an abusive man abuses his wife because he "loves" her appalling.

 

Abuse isn't about love. It's about control. He just uses "love" as a means to scam his victims so he can get them to give him total and complete control. Then he gets to do with her whatever he wants. And that is NEVER "love".

 

Now, fortunately for you, OP, this man is not abusive. But he IS all about what he wants, and what you want be damned. He thinks seeing and kissing other women is no big deal! He seems clueless that it would hurt you. Either that or he just does not care.

 

You've got him to the point where he knows he can even cheat and you'll "forgive" him and take him back. And you'll even assign the blame to yourself, not him.

 

And that's where things get dangerous for you emotionally. Once you've handed him all the control, you have no voice and no choice. HE will rule and you'll be left sitting there with your phone in your hand, hoping and praying he deigns to call you in between chasing and kissing other women. And he can do whatever he wants because he knows he holds all the cards.

 

Are you going to allow this to continue?

 

Refusing to speak to him ever again is you claiming your life back. Why should your moods and your self-worth be dictated by a man who lives several hours away and who completely disregards your feelings? Why can't YOU decide what mood you're in and what your worth is?

 

And I'm willing to go further and guarantee your anxiety will become much more manageable once he's no longer contributing to it. I bet you'll be much stronger and will surprise yourself with your ability to do things you once thought impossible.

 

You know, one of my coworkers remarked to me that he noticed how much happier I'd been since my ex and I broke up. I found that strange, because I'd been crying every day and feeling awful. But something changed...once I no longer looked to him to determine my value I became more confident and more stable. Not having to worry about what he was doing (or WHO he was doing) made my stress levels go down to almost zero.

 

I'm willing to bet you'll be the same way. But the only way there is to allow yourself enough time without speaking to him to let go of the hope that the man he was in the beginning will return. That man is gone. He either was an act or he drank him away.

 

Regardless of why, when you let go of that fantasy and that hope is when the true healing can begin.

[notalady]

Bolt, I agree abuse is not love. But we were getting too bogged down in us trying to convince LostLove that he doesn't love her and LostLove trying to argue yes he does, you can't possibly know how he feels. We're arguing about feelings which there's no way to verify. He may very well feel love, just like an abuser might feel love, who the hell know what's going on in their head?

 

But I'm trying to change the thinking and say, EVEN if assuming he does love her, SO WHAT? Why does it MATTER what he's FEELING, when his so called "love" equals to hurting her and treating her like crap?

[boltnrun]

notalady, I agree 100%.

 

I just worry that she is so hung up on "but I KNOW he really loves me!" that it is rendering her incapable of breaking free.

 

I believe the stumbling block, OP, is that you're thinking "Maybe this is all the love he is capable of giving, what gives me the right to demand more?"

 

And, you don't have that right. Not really.

 

What you DO have is a choice.

 

Either what this man is giving you is acceptable or it's not. If you are truly 100% fine with him seeing and kissing other women and concealing it from you, if you are fine with him never coming to get you, if you're fine with him breaking promises, if you're fine with him drinking so much he can't drive to you and can't remember what he said the night before, if you're fine with him cruising dating sites, and you're fine with him blaming you for not being there...if keeping him is worth all of that, then stay! And never mind what others think.

 

But...if you are NOT OK with accepting those behaviors from him, the only option is to end it. Staying with someone hoping they will "change" or "step up" when history has proven they will not change and will not step up is an exercise in futility.

[notalady]

Well looks like she's incapable of breaking free anyway regardless of whether we tell her he doesn't love her. She seems to NEED to believe that he does. As mentioned in my previous post, I think it's more to do with her self worth depending on it.

 

LostLove it seems that you're close to your parents so I don't really know where this lack of self respect and worthiness and self love come from. But really, ultimately that's what it comes down to, start practicing having more respect and love for yourself. Because from where I stand, to have allowed yourself be treated like this and STILL can't walk away, you have neither.

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh but you really need to focus on working on this instead of focusing on him and what he does or doesn't do, or feel or doesn't feel. Because it doesn't and shouldn't matter.

[LAYAAN]

notalady,

Great post! I hope OP pays attention to your post.

OP, normally men marry who they respect. By sticking around through this abusive behavior, you have showed that you don't have self-respect.

I learned through my personal experience that when people (men and women) like someone, they become exclusive fast and stay consistently in touch and there is progress in terms of relationship. When there is back and forth, I can tell you that almost always they are using you to feel better and looking for someone better than you. They don't suddenly wake up to realize how great of a partner you are and marry you. Normally they just dump you or you get fed up of them and leave them. Considering how this (non-)relationship has gone back and forth, even if he wakes up one day and asks you to marry him, I would have serious doubts if it would even stay put.

[reinventmyself]

We can get caught up in whether or not two people `love' each other, how much and measure their motivations.

Bottom line is two people can love each other at the same time be reeeaaallly bad for each other.

 

Love doesn't make it all better. Especially is either or both parties have emotional and addiction issues.

It's renders them incapable of participating fully in a loving relationship, despite how much they think they might want it.

I can account to my last serious relationship. I do not doubt we loved each other, but for other reasons we were not healthy for each other.

 

'Love is not enough' seems so contrite at this moment. Yet so appropriate.

It's really difficult to walk away when you love someone. But one of the side benefits ~ the anxiety magically goes away.

[ragdoll15]

Lostlove, if you have the chance to watch Bachelor Pad (especially season 3), I think it will open your eyes. It's one thing to talk about your own situation and pretend like you can step out of your body and try to read what's going on. However, seeing this sort of thing actually happening to real people on TV will be eye-opening for you.

 

Also take a good hard look at what life would be like alone. That might be a big source of anxiety for you. But, seriously think about it. So what if you're alone? Some of our history's greatest women were strong, independent women who swore never to be tied down by a man. Queen Elizabeth for instance. In the end, a man is someone who can wake up one day and tell you he doesn't love you anymore. But you, your body, your career, your hobbies, will never do that to you because you're in control of you. But you first have to choose to control you. You first have to choose to love you.

 

I get the sense that you're almost acting helpless and allowing things to happen to you rather than taking the wheel and driving the changes you need. There's so many wonderful, enjoyable things about being alive, and so many things that you can do when you're not responsible to any person besides yourself. I wish you would see that instead of being tied up into whether your ex will call you back, what he's up to, etc. He's just no good for you. Period. He doesn't make you happy. So he's no good for you. He's no good for you. He's no good for you. He's no good for you. He's no good for you. He's no good for you. He's no good for you. He's no good for you. He's no good for you.

 

Repeat that to yourself over and over again and then block him. And close that chapter of your life. You don't need him to call you (and you ignore him... or worse pick up the phone) to feel better. You need to validate yourself to feel better. And I know you're not wanting to go to an anonymous help group, but I strongly suggest that you do this. It WILL help. Social anxiety is not an excuse. If you were able to overcome your anxiety by dating your ex when you first met him, then you can get over that anxiety and meet people who WANT to help you and who DO sympathize with you and who WILL be your safety net when you're weak.

[lostlove76]

Hi all. I think I've gotten too far behind to try to respond to everything like I normally do. I'm sorry! I promise I read every single word of every post. I feel bad, because I feel like if people take the time to write and give their advice and support, I should reply to each point. Please don't think I'm not grateful, because I am, and it is all very helpful! Yesterday I think I just needed some time to kind of process everything. I wasn't nearly as depressed as the day before, so maybe things are sinking in. I'm sure it'll be a bit up and down for a while until I fully get over him.

 

He texted "Hey" last night from the bar at 2:30am. I didn't answer. Then he tried calling at 4:30am and I didn't answer. Then he tried again at 7am and I didn't answer. So that makes me feel a little bit better, because 1) he was thinking of me enough to call, at least, all throughout the night, and 2) I got to prove that I'm serious about not talking to him since he was such a jerk, and 3) I feel like I've gained back a tiny bit of my dignity by being strong. This is why I don't block him. It makes me feel better knowing that he called. Oh, and he stayed off the dating site all day yesterday (unlike the previous few days, when he was suddenly on it all the freaking time). So I feel like he stayed off in preparation for calling me, thinking I would be more likely to answer. Too little too late though.

 

I can't imagine that I'll answer again. The last two conversations were so crappy that I'm not going to set myself up for a repeat. Do I still have the wish that he would realize what he's lost and step it up and become a good boyfriend and we could be happy? Of course I do. I'm not quite to the point yet of wanting him gone completely and forever, but that's my heart talking, not my head. He would still have to do something big to prove he cares (which he won't). Otherwise, I will just continue to ignore calls and try to move forward and hope that one day I don't want him or love him anymore.

 

Thanks again for all the comments! If I start feeling lost and confused again, I'll go back and quote/reply to some of it.

[reinventmyself]

If you were really committed to moving forward, whether he called or not wouldn't matter.

The fact that you are still coming up with conditions that you might actually take him seriously sounds like you are still in the very same place you were when

you started this thread. That and watching his online activity. Same thing, different day.

I hope some time and distance gives you some clarity.

[boltnrun]

It's really rude and inconsiderate of him to call at those hours. Guess no other women were available for him to hang out with and kiss.

 

I get that he is in full getting plastered mode at those times, but to expect you to make yourself available at those godawful hours is super arrogant.

 

I presume, however, that you have always made yourself available to talk on the phone at his whim.

 

Glad you're not answering. I hope you never do again. I also hope he stops bothering you.