8 months and still casual…leave or stay?

[Naomi99]

I bet you wouldn't accept the same treatment from the counter guy at Chipotle.

 

Yeah, but the counter guy at Chipotle also wouldn't give me an Rx for Latisse… (I know that sounds horrible and borderline prostitution, but I really did enjoy his company!!)

 

I guess it's what you're willing to tolerate and what you're not.

 

In the end, Doc didn't love me, and I won't tolerate that.

[ThatwasThen]

In the end, Doc didn't love me, and I won't tolerate that.

That ^^^^ kind of thinking is da bomb. Its what will bring you to the stage of indifference to him... Acceptance!

[Hermes]

And that is at the heart of the matter here (and I am well aware that my views here are not popular!).

 

ChristW says:

 

"...And yes, it sounds like the man was honest with you about his wants--he never offered more than he was willing to."

 

It takes two to tango...ALWAYS!

 

Dr. Who is being pilloried, bashed and all the rest just because he is a confirmed bachelor who made it clear he does not/did not want a committed relationship. The fact that a person, in this case a man, is a confirmed bachelor (aged 56) does not mean he must live like a monk (I keep saying this but it doesn't seem to register!!).

 

ChristoW. "You said he has the ability to have sex without it going anywhere." Him and the rest of humankind. Since when does sex have "to go anywhere".

 

Putting it plainly, if you don't know what you want, then don't enter the dating field until you KNOW what you want.

 

Just trying to be fair here...

[boltnrun]

I don't believe I ever bashed him or insisted he has to live "like a monk". I simply said if she wants a love relationship, he is not the one who is going to give that to her.

 

I get her bashing of him is kind of therapeutic. So I give her a bit of a pass because it's unlikely he'll ever see it.

[Hermes]

Geezzee. What is wrong with everyone. I didn't say YOU bashed him, Bolt.

But it has been the tenor of this thread for a while, hot on the heels of the lovely adjectives about how gentlemanly, refreshing, delightful, handsome, interesting etc. he was/is.

 

I think I am smart enough to have realised Dr. Who is not the person to give Naomi a love relationship (as in commitment), and it is very obvious he wasn't and isn't, and, moreover, he made that clear. That doesn't make him this baaaddd loser. Funny thing is, everyone is describing what he is like, despite never having seen, heard or met him.

 

Oh well, never mind.....

 

It's like this: if you can't stand the heat in the kitchen, then get out of the kitchen. Same with this relationship with Dr. Who.

[boltnrun]

I just think Naomi's bashing is therapeutic. It's helping her detach.

 

I also just wanted to throw my hat in the ring as not thinking he's evil for not wanting to marry, etc. I am single and do not live as a nun! I do think based on Naomi's description that he may be used to getting what he wants from women and not getting all that upset if one of them decides to stop seeing him. Which I believe is part of the reason she's hurt by his lack of contact.

[Hermes]

It's OK Bolt. But it isn't Naomi really doing the bashing, as you well know. It's the Greek chorus. And of course it has been said at various points during the 1582 posts that there is something "wrong" with being a confirmed bachelor, and if you are one, then never ever have anything to do with a woman. I'll say it again. If you are a confirmed bachelor/single then make that fact plain, do not hold out "commitment" and accordingly do not lead on. I am given to understand the Dr. made all that plain enough.

 

As for Dr. Who if (and we don't really know this) women come at him from all angles (not at gunpoint it must be said) then he is hardly going to turn them down.

As the saying goes, you place your bets and you takes your chances. Don't get into the ring if you don't know how to box. And expect to take a few hits.

 

I wonder did Dr. Who put in his classified ad "Lonely Dr. would love to meet nice woman for fun days/evenings no strings attached". I don't imagine he put in a classified ad: "Lonely Dr. seeks nice woman with a view to dating and eventual marriage." No, I didn't think so.

[tiredofvampires]

I totally agree with your points, Hermes, but I think the point was that Naomi was erroneously attaching some kind of character/personality assessment to him based on his profession. And the fact is, intelligence, being smart, having a strong work ethic, being top dog in a top field, having status, has zero correlation to whether you are an emotionally available person, a "trustworthy" person, a competent person in relationships (even if you're highly competent in your chosen field), or even a decent person. You could be the most horrible a-hole and be a doctor (and I know of more than one, personally). Perhaps some types of doctors would be less likely to be a-holes, like general practitioners (who are low on the status totem pole for doctors, so they are in it less for external rewards) and pediatricians (whose specialty absolutely requires emotional intelligence, the "human touch", and nurturing qualities). But could you be a sociopath and a world-class brain or heart surgeon? I'm sure of it.

 

If I met a doctor in his mid-late 50's who had never had a serious relationship, my first thought would not be "he's a great man, he saves lives" -- it would be, "This is a guy who's used his brain all his life to get places in the world, who's got all the professional accolades, but has an interpersonal lack. For him, money, reputation, material possessions and living the life of a playboy are ENOUGH." He's practically a screaming stereotype.

 

While I don't think there's anything "wrong" morally with being a "confirmed bachelor", and someone who doesn't want to commit to a relationship, I have a personal opinion based on what I observe about such people: they are emotionally stunted. They're selfish, not knowing how to really enjoy the act of giving. They don't know the pleasure of someone else's pleasure, unless it DIRECTLY increases their own. They have problems with intimacy, trust, and vulnerability, and therefore can only share to a certain (shallow) extent, so they lack a depth of experience with another person. They don't know the meaning of compromise and sacrifice, and all the other things that relationships teach about being part of something bigger than yourself. Not knowing how to love, or not being able to love is something that I find tragic. And people like Doc don't just not love Naomi, they fail to be able to love anyone they are sleeping with (and possibly, anyone). So the intimacy stays very superficial. It's about physical pleasure, which is fine -- but then it goes no further and I think living like that is sort of like being blind, or deaf, or having another sense store missing. Missing out on love is sad and leaves one chamber of life empty. Most people would agree it's the most important chamber for deep happiness -- and the only truly sustainable resource for happiness.

 

It's really hard to judge someone else's happiness, and whether it's "not enough" if it's enough for them, but I think it would be dishonest if we said Doc is working with a full palette of colors to paint from. Doc isn't a villain, but he sure ain't no paragon of human emotional ability/versatility.

 

I also think people can choose not to be in a relationship for really legit reasons, and I wouldn't consider it to be a deficiency of some kind. For example, monks and nuns -- they feel they have a higher purpose. Or laypeople who feel that their energies are better spent on other efforts than relationships (which CAN be quite draining and yes, they are work). There are many ways for a person to love other people. It's not who you're loving, but how well you're loving, that makes a life fulfilled, imho. Maybe some of these people are celibate, maybe some are not, but I'd say if you're not celibate and you have never wanted or had an emotionally intimate bond with the person you are sleeping with, usually that signals something that is wounded in some way. Biologically, humans are generally designed to bond as a result of sex, especially repeated sexual encounters with the same partner. It's part of our inheritance to be able to form family units and raise offspring. So people that don't as a rule bond this way and only use sex as a physical outlet have something going on.

 

I have yet to see examples to the contrary.

[Fudgie]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with being a Bachelor or Bachelorette if that's what you like. However, it's clear that a perpetual Bachelor is not a good fit for Naomi, or anyone seeking a real commitment really, for obvious reasons. He would still have a lot of ladies to choose from, but he needs to leave the committed relationship seeking ones alone and the women seeking such should probably be aware of his past and be aware that he's unlikely to change.

[christwowheels]

I think you perhaps misunderstood my point about the Doctor having the ability to get sex without commitment. Yeah, it's technically possible for anyone to have sex without commitment. But it's realistically not possible for the average 56-year-old man with man-boobs to get a regular supply of sex without commitment. By being a doctor, this man has a level of prestige that affords him more mating opportunities than comparable males. As a result, he was able to treat Naomi as he did without worrying about not getting much loving in the future because his prestige will allow Naomi to be relatively easily replaced.

[Ms Darcy]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with being a Bachelor or Bachelorette if that's what you like. However, it's clear that a perpetual Bachelor is not a good fit for Naomi, or anyone seeking a real commitment really, for obvious reasons. He would still have a lot of ladies to choose from, but he needs to leave the committed relationship seeking ones alone and the women seeking such should probably be aware of his past and be aware that he's unlikely to change.

 

I don't think Naomi expressed an interest in anything more than a fwb-type situation after 8 months of hanging out and having sex. I think Naomi said she wasn't interested in guys who are super interested in her in the beginning, that she wasn't sure what she wanted from him (the doctor) for a long while, and eventually that she was scared of bringing this up to the doctor.

 

It's fine to be commitment minded, but you have to say you want a relationship if it's not happening. I know Naomi mentioned she didn't it's exciting or mysterious to say you want a relationship, but I clarity didn't come until a (semi-direct) conversation about intentions occurred.

[Hermes]

You said it, Ms. Darcy.

 

"I don't think Naomi expressed an interest in anything more than a fwb-type situation after 8 months of hanging out and having sex. I think Naomi said she wasn't interested in guys who are super interested in her in the beginning, that she wasn't sure what she wanted from him (the doctor) for a long while, and eventually that she was scared of bringing this up to the doctor."

 

Fully agree, Fudgie. Of course the confirmed bachelor is not/was not a good fit for Naomi. No one can deny that fact. But here we go round the merry/go/round again. Did she make it clear that she wanted to and hoped for commitment. No, she did not, until later in the day so to speak, because she considered that speaking out (for heaven-s sake) might be deemed "confrontational and aggressive" and put an end to the scene with Dr. Who. Naomi was not kidnapped or forced to date/continue seeing Dr. Who. How can he "leave the committed relationship ones alone" , he isn't a mind reader and how would he know until he was told....

It all, of course, boils down to checking on who you intend to date (more so if you found them in OLD, and I am not saying this is the case here. We don't know where Naomi first hit up wi Dr. Who).

 

ChristoW. Geezzze, now the buzz word is man-boobs. If you actually read back ALL the posts, particularly at beginning (yes, I know, an arduous task) you will read about this man's wonderful attributes. Repeat, repeat, this man DID make it very clear he was not able to offer commitment. You will find a post by Naomi where she quotes more or less verbatim her conversation with Dr. Who on this issue.

 

Where is this thing about prestige and doctors coming from I ask. Are they from another planet? Not where I come from they aren't, even though certainly they are in a good profession (like lawyers, accountants, engineers, architects, vets, astronauts, the list goes on). I can say the majority are good people, and because someone, doctor or otherwise does not wish to commit to a relationship, that does NOT make him or her a BAD person.

 

ChristoW, 56 is deemed young nowadays (60 is called the "new 40"), and you would be amazed at how active the 50+ year olds are. Seix is always available, if you want to put it like that, and one doesn't have to go too far to get it. Maybe Minnesota is different

 

TOV. I don't agree. People are free to choose the lifestyle they wish for, and of course there has always been the societal pressure (not to mention the commercial pressure) on people to marry or enter long-term partnerships. And there used to be a tendency to stigmatise the confirmed bachelor/single, who, I REPEAT, does NOT have to be a monk or a nun. It looks like this stigmatisation is alive and well still in certain places. If Dr. Who or any other confirmed bachelor is a happy loner, then why would he be labelled as stunted or anything else. He is (and all other confirmed bachelors) perfectly entitled to his life choice without having to be pilloried for same.

[Fudgie]

I agree Hermes, both parties need to be upfront about their desires, either to have a committed relationship or not. I was speaking about "leaving the committed ones alone" with the assumption that the ones seeking commitment indeed made it known that they were looking for that.

 

There's nothing wrong with remaining single if it makes you happy. You can stunted with or without a relationship.

 

I just take real issue with those who don't want a relationship but lead people on, like the doctor that my coworker is dating while he's cheating on his girlfriend. Ick.

 

 

Lots of people get starry eyed around doctors. Having grown up with them, I don't really so I don't really get it. Doctors are people just like everyone else. They are smart people but people. I put my father on a pedestal admittedly but that's not because he's a doctor and I definitely don't put other doctors there. I've gotten Rxs from doctors that I felt I shouldn't take (ie they didn't ask about my current meds, and the drug causes an interaction!) so I've torn up the scripts in the waiting room and trashed them. I've rolled my eyes at some things that they've said that I know aren't true for me because they didn't take a complete history, or they chose to ignore parts of it.

 

I guess my point is, you shouldn't be starry eyed over anyone. Doctors, lawyers, celebrities, ANYONE. Be skeptical, question everything.

[Hermes]

Yes, Fudgie, I agree. You can indeed be "stunted" whether single, inveterate bachelor, married, divorced, in LT relationship, whatever.

 

And I also take great issue with those (regardless of their trade or profession) who lead people on with the mirage of commitment, when nothing could be fartehr from their minds. But that wasn't the case in point. Dr. Who made his stance quite clear, and indeed I am coming to think he probably did so tacitly anyhow, well before the "defining" conversation with Naomi.

If you voluntarily date a 56 yo (makes no difference what profession he is) confirmed bachelor, who you know based on his previous dating pattern is not up for commitment (why should he if he doesn't want to) then you are going in eyes wide open. Anything else is wishful thinking, along the lines of "maybe it will be different with me..."

[Naomi99]

I get her bashing of him is kind of therapeutic. So I give her a bit of a pass because it's unlikely he'll ever see it.

 

Thank you…xox

 

 

But other than describing manboobs, (and if you recall I also gave him a pass because he'd just had surgery and couldn't work out) and saying he was selfish (which I know firsthand through observing him with his belongings,) I don't ever recall bashing him. Maybe I did, but I also am sure gloated him more than said bad things.

 

I still think he's a wonderful man, maybe not someone I'd chose for my inner circle of friends, but wonderful nonetheless.

 

Bottom line: He doesn't love me.

[Naomi99]

If I met a doctor in his mid-late 50's who had never had a serious relationship, my first thought would not be "he's a great man, he saves lives" -- it would be, "This is a guy who's used his brain all his life to get places in the world, who's got all the professional accolades, but has an interpersonal lack. For him, money, reputation, material possessions and living the life of a playboy are ENOUGH." He's practically a screaming stereotype.

 

My very first impression milliseconds after I met him was "hmm, he seems gay." I'm not kidding.

Then I thought "he's a great man, he saves lives."

 

 

While I don't think there's anything "wrong" morally with being a "confirmed bachelor", and someone who doesn't want to commit to a relationship, I have a personal opinion based on what I observe about such people: they are emotionally stunted. They're selfish, not knowing how to really enjoy the act of giving. They don't know the pleasure of someone else's pleasure, unless it DIRECTLY increases their own. They have problems with intimacy, trust, and vulnerability, and therefore can only share to a certain (shallow) extent, so they lack a depth of experience with another person. They don't know the meaning of compromise and sacrifice, and all the other things that relationships teach about being part of something bigger than yourself. Not knowing how to love, or not being able to love is something that I find tragic. And people like Doc don't just not love Naomi, they fail to be able to love anyone they are sleeping with (and possibly, anyone). So the intimacy stays very superficial. It's about physical pleasure, which is fine -- but then it goes no further and I think living like that is sort of like being blind, or deaf, or having another sense store missing. Missing out on love is sad and leaves one chamber of life empty. Most people would agree it's the most important chamber for deep happiness -- and the only truly sustainable resource for happiness.

 

 

THIS THIS THIS!!! He is extremely affectionate and we've had plenty of intimate moments, but we hit a brick wall always. There is a limit to what he can handle, and when his cup runneth over, I go home.

 

I have seen this man at one of his most despondent moments; close to tears, sitting in the dark, saying very few words yet at the same time pouring out his heart though his silence. I remember my head was in his lap and I was looking up at him, holding his hand, listening to him. We stayed like that for hours until I felt like he was in better spirits. Then, yeah, I drove home.

 

The next time I saw him, he was embarrassed and said, "Wow, I couldn't believe how depressed I was that night. Thank you for staying with me, I felt a lot better the next day. I should buy you a gift!"

 

Did I ever see a gift? No.

 

Not only that, but I've been through minor medical mishap myself. He wasn't there as much as I'd like him to be, especially being a doctor. My ex was there for me more, dammit!

 

So during this nine months, we've been shared two medical procedures (one minor and one major) and one house move. And I don't really feel much closer to him than I did the first three months we were dating. And these are life-changing stressful events where you'd want the support of your SO. His version of stepping up to the plate is gingerly on tippy-toes, swinging with as least force as you can.

 

Stunted? Yes. But I also think he chooses to be stunted. He only gives of himself when he stands to benefit (equally, if not more) from the transaction. And I also think once he's benefitted from someone, he forgets about them because he got what he wanted and they're of no more use to him…that is, until he wants something again.

 

 

It's really hard to judge someone else's happiness, and whether it's "not enough" if it's enough for them, but I think it would be dishonest if we said Doc is working with a full palette of colors to paint from. Doc isn't a villain, but he sure ain't no paragon of human emotional ability/versatility.

 

He is an extremely intense person, but lacks depth. One is easily mistaken for the other. I know I made that mistake.

 

 

I also think people can choose not to be in a relationship for really legit reasons, and I wouldn't consider it to be a deficiency of some kind. For example, monks and nuns -- they feel they have a higher purpose. Or laypeople who feel that their energies are better spent on other efforts than relationships (which CAN be quite draining and yes, they are work). There are many ways for a person to love other people. It's not who you're loving, but how well you're loving, that makes a life fulfilled, imho. Maybe some of these people are celibate, maybe some are not, but I'd say if you're not celibate and you have never wanted or had an emotionally intimate bond with the person you are sleeping with, usually that signals something that is wounded in some way. Biologically, humans are generally designed to bond as a result of sex, especially repeated sexual encounters with the same partner. It's part of our inheritance to be able to form family units and raise offspring. So people that don't as a rule bond this way and only use sex as a physical outlet have something going on.

 

I have yet to see examples to the contrary.

[Hermes]

Naomi, you did give him a glowing reference in the earlier part of the thread, that is quite true. Which is why I found it rather odd to call him other things, but then you were ably aided and abetted by the Greek chorus LOL.

 

You are right, he doesn't love you, well, not at any rate in the way you would wish for. Perhaps it is as well to keep away from the confirmed bachelors unless you want to sing from the same hymn sheet as them.

[Naomi99]

No, she did not, until later in the day so to speak, because she considered that speaking out (for heaven-s sake) might be deemed "confrontational and aggressive" and put an end to the scene with Dr. Who.

 

 

I waited until later in the day to speak because I wasn't sure what I wanted.

 

I never said stating what you want might be considered confrontational and aggressive.

 

I said he does not like confrontational and aggressive women.

[Naomi99]

I don't think Naomi expressed an interest in anything more than a fwb-type situation after 8 months of hanging out and having sex. I think Naomi said she wasn't interested in guys who are super interested in her in the beginning, that she wasn't sure what she wanted from him (the doctor) for a long while, and eventually that she was scared of bringing this up to the doctor.

 

It's fine to be commitment minded, but you have to say you want a relationship if it's not happening. I know Naomi mentioned she didn't it's exciting or mysterious to say you want a relationship, but I clarity didn't come until a (semi-direct) conversation about intentions occurred.

 

Yes….this is what happened. Thank you.

[Naomi99]

1. Do you think he's not contacting me because he respects my wishes? Or is it because he forgot about about me and doesn't care?

 

2. What do you think would happen if I texted him "Hey, I found a serious boyfriend. Let's be friends now!"

 

Honestly…greek chorus, what say you?

[Naomi99]

I'm not going to do it, but I want to know.

[tiredofvampires]

I'm not going to do it, but I want to know.

 

Maybe it would be more instructive, self-affirming, and proactive if YOU told everyone why you are not going to do it, rather than having people spoonfeed you answers (as validation) to start.

 

You could try a list.

[Helpexpressme]

1. Do you think he's not contacting me because he respects my wishes? Or is it because he forgot about about me and doesn't care?

 

2. What do you think would happen if I texted him "Hey, I found a serious boyfriend. Let's be friends now!"

 

Honestly…greek chorus, what say you?

 

 

He does care about you Naomi, don't think he does not. But he is staying away because he does not want to hurt and confuse you anymore than he already has.

[tiredofvampires]

1. Do you think he's not contacting me because he respects my wishes? Or is it because he forgot about about me and doesn't care?

 

This is asking us to be mindreaders...we don't know this man. I know it's unsettling not to have an answer on this, but guessing will get you no closer to knowing. This line of thinking brings you no closer to closure. Unfortunately, closure will have to happen without knowing the answer to this (assuming he doesn't resurface, and then all bets are off.)

[Hermes]

We are not clairvoyants, Naomi, so I have no idea what Dr. Who would say, if anything. Give me his number and I'll ask him (NOT!).

 

I agree with Ms. Darcy, and it is what I have been saying too all along.

 

"I don't think Naomi expressed an interest in anything more than a fwb-type situation after 8 months of hanging out and having sex. I think Naomi said she wasn't interested in guys who are super interested in her in the beginning, that she wasn't sure what she wanted from him (the doctor) for a long while, and eventually that she was scared of bringing this up to the doctor.

 

It's fine to be commitment minded, but you have to say you want a relationship if it's not happening. I know Naomi mentioned she didn't it's exciting or mysterious to say you want a relationship, but I clarity didn't come until a (semi-direct) conversation about intentions occurred."

 

So, where's the problem I ask!

 

Well, Naomi, look where it got you being meek and mild. I don't like confrontational and aggressive either. But assertive and straight-talking yes.

 

Reeling back, you said you did not want marriage and children, you were not interested in his friends, you did not want him to meet yours, and I expect at some stage you told him all this. So, based on that, what else would he think except that you were on the same page as him and only into a "light relationship, or as Ms. Darcy puts it "fwb".