8 months and still casual…leave or stay?

[Applewhite]

Yeah, I didn't know that.

 

I think you are more sure of what you want than I am, so it's easier for you to state without hesitation.

 

Maybe that's true. I don't know. I just hope it's not because you are afraid to admit what you want on some level (even to yourself). Do you think that is possible?

[Naomi99]

Yes but I think the difference between you and me (that you didn't know until this post), is I have done this before - something similar to you and Doc, felt the same way you do about it with a previous guy. That experience taught me so much and years after the fact, I don't look at it much differently now than I did then. And it is also what allowed me to break away in just 1 month with PokerPlayer.

 

So, then, you can see it didn't work the first time around when you had the experience similar to mine, and it also didn't work the second time around when you were more upfront with PokerPlayer because you felt like you were being led on again.

[Naomi99]

Maybe that's true. I don't know. I just hope it's not because you are afraid to admit what you want on some level (even to yourself). Do you think that is possible?

 

This is what I want: Someone who has my back. And that means…

 

1. Your name is first on my medical contacts.

2. You're there when I'm flipping out.

3. We take trips together.

4. Stability and sexual exclusivity.

 

I am not asking for anything else! No rings, no babies, no marriage, not even living together. I don't mind if I never meet your family. If it happens, then cool. If not, I won't be throwing a hissy fit.

[Silverbirch]

I'm so sorry for you Naomi, but I'm glad that you can get in with your life with your dignity intact.

 

The thing about the 16 year age difference is that he is at a different place in his life to you. He likely would have always found it difficult to be in a traditional commited relationship with somebody just because of who he is.

 

Many years ago, I worked as a secretary in a large university hospital prof unit, and there were some doctors there, one in particular who your friend reminds me of. As far as I know, he stayed a bachelor at least until retirement, but ai heard there was at least one young woman in his life at any given time - often more than a 16 year age difference. See, you do get the privileges of always being the BESUTIFUL young woman when you are with a much okder man.

 

Women were attracted to his intelligence, status (he was a director of surgery), his charm and of course, he must have been experienced. He was wealthy by most people's standards and used to invite the younger women in his yacht. Most of the younger doctors in his unit considered him to be difficult. There are a lot of reasons why a lot of women find these types of men attractive, and despite their eccentricities are generally considered a good "catch" if they were to commit to any one woman - though as I said, Im struggling to recall seeing that happen. So many years of independence, and to be truthful, Im finally seeing that to be a much better life for myself as well - and I don't have the time and energy to commit to another person in a traditional commited relationship.

 

You put so much energy into creating cosy times for you both. I hope you will put that energy into taking care of yourself, maybe putting that money towards travelling to a place you have always wanted to visit. Good luck.

[Applewhite]

So, then, you can see it didn't work the first time around when you had the experience similar to mine, and it also didn't work the second time around when you were more upfront with PokerPlayer because you felt like you were being led on again.

 

Well the first experience was a very painful one. And I wasn't as direct about what I want as I am now. I wanted to play it cool and act like I want to "go with the flow" and I am ok with "seeing where it goes" etc. I got very hurt. Very very hurt. It dragged on for a long time. And I saw it as the best, most intense, most romantic experience of my life that I wouldn't change for the world. Like you, I wasn't angry but grateful, but very hurt. I have more mixed feelings about it now. It's complicated.

 

But what did happen from being more direct and careful who I let myself get intimate with (sexually and emotionally) I was able to lock the whole thing into a month and not get too invested before I figured out his intentions. Of course it still hurts a lot, but it did not break me down like the other guy. I wonder if my thread was as long as yours when I was going through that...not sure.

[Naomi99]

 

 

You see, just putting it like that..."you've revealed your hand" is just the attitude that I think will steer you in the wrong direction, and reveals something that is not part of a guileless process. It's one thing to say, "I'm going to talk with this person and feel them out" -- which is fine. It's another to say, "I'm not going to reveal my hand right away". That's a game there. That's a game mindset.

 

I won't reveal my hand right away until I know what I'm getting myself into. Not sure if that's game playing or a protection….

[Applewhite]

I won't reveal my hand right away until I know what I'm getting myself into. Not sure if that's game playing or a protection….

 

But wouldn't protecting yourself require weeding out the guys who aren't able to provide what you want early so you don't get invested in them and go through pain later?

[Applewhite]

Or better yet, considering the devastation you felt and still feel after telling Doc to stay away, do you think your method of "protection" has worked well?

[Naomi99]

But wouldn't protecting yourself require weeding out the guys who aren't able to provide what you want early so you don't get invested in them and go through pain later?

 

How do they know what they can provide for me when they don't know me early on? And vice versa? It's more complex than that.

[Applewhite]

How do they know what they can provide for me when they don't know me early on? And vice versa? It's more complex than that.

 

They know if they can provide a relationship for *someone*. Doc knew he couldn't - you know it and I know it. And of course he always knew it. He just never told you - and of course his excuse is that you never asked.

 

Do you at least see how selfish it was of him that he never considered it was something relevant to mention?

[tiredofvampires]

This is what I want: Someone who has my back. And that means…

 

1. Your name is first on my medical contacts.

2. You're there when I'm flipping out.

3. We take trips together.

4. Stability and sexual exclusivity.

 

I am not asking for anything else! No rings, no babies, no marriage, not even living together. I don't mind if I never meet your family. If it happens, then cool. If not, I won't be throwing a hissy fit.

 

I don't see "Love" on that list.

 

Even though love's absence is what has driven you from this doctor.

 

And you said you're not angry. Naomi...maybe this thread is so long, you've forgotten where you were in it.

 

You have been very angry about him. Maybe not regretting the time spent -- but feeling gyped of things that you would have wanted, emotional investment that you were offering that he wasn't reciprocating.

 

I see some re-writing history going on. And that's a slippery slope. Suddenly it was pretty much a made-to-order relationship where he just failed to dot the i's and cross the t's...even though you weren't getting essential needs met.

 

The way you're talking now, it seems that the only thing standing in between being clear it's over and being back in his bed is that he's not contacting you. I don't see someone who knows their standards. Comprise now, shake your fist at the skies later.

 

Just calling it as I sees it.

[Applewhite]

Naomi, let's say you are a cab driver that gets paid by the mile. I get on and tell you that if you keep going North, there is a Wendy's which is where I want to get off. I am not sure how far away it is, but I don't care too much and I am patient.

 

Let's also say that you know that if we keep driving North, we will go around the globe and never hit a single Wendy's. Yet you remain silent.

 

Is what you are doing (i.e. not alerting me that we will never reach a Wendy's and the fee will be $$$$$) ethical?

 

Is it more/less ethical if you enjoyed the scenery?

[Naomi99]

Or better yet, considering the devastation you felt and still feel after telling Doc to stay away, do you think your method of "protection" has worked well?

 

Yes and no. I wouldn't have done anything different except maybe seen him one last time before I ended it to see what he had to say in person. I think ultimately it would have been a fruitless move.

 

I made the best decision I could at the time. I don't feel great now, but who knows? This difficult decision that feels devastating right now could have a huge positive impact on the future going forward. No one knows what's going to happen two weeks from now or a month from now. Who knows? Maybe he gained loads of respect for me. Maybe he has an epiphany. Maybe through this thread and my experience, I find a much better-suited partner. Maybe through my "protected-method" decision I was able to post here and help loads of other people and that's positive in itself.

[Naomi99]

Love is a given.

 

I'm not angry at him now. I told him not to contact me and that's why he's not. I could contact him too, but I'm not. It's over. I made the best decision I could and I am going to sit with that and live with it.

[ThatwasThen]

It's not sexy to walk around proclaiming to every date that is your goal. There is no mystery in that, no chase, and no spark. How boring to walk around all day, saying to every man "I want a relationship".

 

Love is a game, and that is not fun. So yes for me, I would run for the hills.

Oh for goodness sakes. Who is suggesting that you " around proclaiming to every date that that is your goal. Of course doing it that way is not sexy. What IS sexy is you (the general you) letting the person you are sharing lots of time with and enjoying that time with to "proclaim" your end dating goal and discuss what theirs is.

 

Who cares if asking that to someone you've been leading up to being intimate with thinks its not sexy. If its so not sexy that it turns them off of you then you never really had them in the first place and it's best they run to the next tooooo anxious to please without getting anything in return damsel.

 

Ladies, ladies, ladies: What the heck is more important him thinking its not sexy or you leaving before he does you and then avoids you like you've got a vag filled with hot pepper sauce? Or carries on with you when you both have completely different end goals.

 

"It's not sexy?" Sorry for my passion here, but: Who gives a flying F? Your emotional well being is far more important then him not thinking it's sexy.

 

Sorry Helpexpressme but that's just no excuse for not stating goals and I'm quite surprised that the two people in this thread who have been burned thanked you for it.

 

There's me tearing you a new one, but I've done it with love and in the hopes of helping y'all with your personal boundaries and confidence when it comes to dating. Especially OLD since it seems to be a cess pool of people too afraid to lose out the attention of some dufus that won't think it's sexy to state what you want or who takes, takes, takes and feels just fine not giving. (except sexually). pfft

 

EXACTLY THIS!!!! I find it unattractive if some man declared that at the start, so I would never do that myself.

 

How about I have all boxes ticked…and if things unfold naturally and end up being a great relationship, then a huge bonus.

How's that strategy working out for you so far?

[Naomi99]

Naomi, let's say you are a cab driver that gets paid by the mile. I get on and tell you that if you keep going North, there is a Wendy's which is where I want to get off. I am not sure how far away it is, but I don't care too much and I am patient.

 

Let's also say that you know that if we keep driving North, we will go around the globe and never hit a single Wendy's. Yet you remain silent.

 

Is what you are doing (i.e. not alerting me that we will never reach a Wendy's and the fee will be $$$$$) ethical?

 

Is it more/less ethical if you enjoyed the scenery?

 

Sorry, I don't even understand the analogy.

 

Who knows? Maybe he would have spoken up at month 10. Doubt it, but why does it matter? I ended it. We could keep throwing a ton of hypotheticals out there but it doesn't matter. He doesn't love me.

[Naomi99]

 

Sorry Helpexpressme but that's just no excuse for not stating goals and I'm quite surprised that the two people in this thread who have been burned thanked you for it..

 

 

Apple said it and she was burned too.

[Applewhite]

Sorry, I don't even understand the analogy.

 

Who knows? Maybe he would have spoken up at month 10. Doubt it, but why does it matter? I ended it. We could keep throwing a ton of hypotheticals out there but it doesn't matter. He doesn't love me.

 

I am asking you if you think what he did is ethical. He knew he could never offer you a relationship. He *probably* knew that is what you wanted, or at least that there was a possibility. He kept silent about his 'disability'. Do you think that is ethical? Do you think a good person does that? Do you not think it was selfish of him?

[ThatwasThen]

Apple said it and she was burned too.

I quoted, Helpexpressme so perhaps you meant she "thanked" it?

I've added to that post btw...

[Naomi99]

I am asking you if you think what he did is ethical. He knew he could never offer you a relationship. He *probably* knew that is what you wanted, or at least that there was a possibility. He kept silent about his 'disability'. Do you think that is ethical? Do you think a good person does that? Do you not think it was selfish of him?

 

Yes, I do think it was selfish to an extent. He didn't speak up because he risked losing the goodies. Just like I didn't speak up because I risked him bolting.

[tiredofvampires]

Missed this one:

 

A lot of men lie, too. Because who is going to put "casual sex" knowing it's going to narrow their pool since many women wouldn't be open to that?

 

There is no insurance policy against liars. But what's your point? Liars exist, whether you find them meeting them in real life, or meeting them online.

 

That changes nothing about what I said about how to do your best to scout out the honest ones to the best of your ability, using observational tools, technological tools, whatever is at your disposal.

 

None of that will eliminate the work you put in to actually getting to know them and paying attention to their actions and words, to judge their character.

 

That men CAN lie is a non-point. Anyone can lie about anything. That doesn't mean there aren't ways of cutting your risks and being smart about the pool you're fishing in.

 

And fwiw, I've seen men indicate the entire list from long-term relationship to casual sex, as the range of options they are entertaining. For the women who want a relationship, the casual sex option may be N/A, if they hit if off well enough to start something serious. (Though that wouldn't be me -- I'm passing by a man who lists casual sex, just because I would prefer someone who is saving themselves for a real relationship.)

[Naomi99]

How's that strategy working out for you so far?

 

I made the best decision I could at the time. I don't feel great now, but who knows? This difficult decision that feels devastating right now could have a huge positive impact on the future going forward. No one knows what's going to happen two weeks from now or a month from now. Who knows? Maybe he gained loads of respect for me. Maybe he has an epiphany. Maybe through this thread and my experience, I find a much better-suited partner. Maybe through my "protected-method" decision I was able to post here and help loads of other people and that's positive in itself.

 

Here we have Apple who made the complete opposite decision as I, yet she doesn't feel that great either.

 

You're F-ed either way.

[ThatwasThen]

Yes, I do think it was selfish to an extent. He didn't speak up because he risked losing the goodies. Just like I didn't speak up because I risked him bolting.

 

Well, at least now you're proclaiming two selfish people and not just blaming Doc for this going on as long as it did. I hope there are lots of lurkers to this thread because there is gold in all the advice and all the insight and the light bulbs going off and the learning being done by you, N.

[Naomi99]

I think your original post stated something like you can narrow down what you're searching for…men will list long-term, casual, blah blah.

 

But I am not skilled at determining who is a player or not by photos. That is something I have to work on…

[ThatwasThen]

I made the best decision I could at the time. I don't feel great now, but who knows? This difficult decision that feels devastating right now could have a huge positive impact on the future going forward. No one knows what's going to happen two weeks from now or a month from now. Who knows? Maybe he gained loads of respect for me. Maybe he has an epiphany. Maybe through this thread and my experience, I find a much better-suited partner. Maybe through my "protected-method" decision I was able to post here and help loads of other people and that's positive in itself.

 

Here we have Apple who made the complete opposite decision as I, yet she doesn't feel that great either.

 

You're F-ed either way.

The difference between you and she is that she said no, that's not good enough for me (as soon as she realized that he wasn't going to make it so she reached her end dating goal. She knows what she wants so she can quickly exit stage left when it's not materializing. She also did not have sex with him (if I remember correctly). That alone makes it far less complicated then when one doesn't know the other very well but are bonding through sex.