8 months and still casual…leave or stay?

[Naomi99]

He is desperately trying to keep you in his life, by offering friendship (as he can't offer it any other way), as his means to keep you. He can't phrase it any other way.

 

But I don't think your strong enough to say no. I think if this was to end, it would have to come from him, as then it would be final.

 

Give him a few days and he'll come sniffing around to see where your at. That conversation was no where near finished.

 

You wrote this over a week ago. You were so right.

 

More texts last night asking to hang out, what my schedule was, blah blah.

I simply took your advice, "No, can't tonight, sweetie."

 

And not playing games. I truly couldn't see him…I was out with friends last night, Friday. And will be again today, Saturday. Of course, I didn't tell him I was with all girls.

[Naomi99]

If she could "stop", she would have. Long ago. She's been rationalizing this to to herself for a long time. She has known since the beginning that he isn't relationship material, even though it wasn't explicitly discussed; and however she may have been confused about what she really wanted, she knows now that she's not cut out to continue this way, on these terms. But she is still not resolved to quit him or this -- hundreds of posts later. She says she doesn't know if she's strong enough yet, she doesn't want to cut him off and then come running back in regret, so she's paralyzed to act on her conviction -- even though she now knows exactly what this is about for him and what she won't get from this.

 

This beautifully summarizes everything that I've been living. To a T.

 

 

So it's already gone into "dark, unhealthy." And it's already personally damaging.

 

I don't like fixating on the concept of addiction if it doesn't apply, but it's quite legitimate here. So then, it's like saying, "the cigarettes/crack/food/etc.etc. don't run the show unless you let them." We're past that point already. Way past. The sex and the hoo hah have been running the show for 8 months now, and it seems a little past the point of "deciding a limit" beyond which she will not go. She's already crossed over the line she really would have wanted for herself. She can't stand the withdrawals, and it's predominating over her "better judgment".

 

So while I am certainly not advocating someone dig themselves a deeper hole just to test their limits, and I agree we all ultimately have control over our decisions (though chemical reward system in the brain is pretty powerful, especially when tied to powerful emotions), I am only advising based on where Naomi seems to be "at." Like any person who seems to have lost control of the wheel and lost contact with a feeling of being able to change course, the next best thing is to observe and feel where this leads until some kind of "rock bottom" or breaking point is reached. "Just say no" is all good until you "just" can't. "Can't", that is. Unfortunately, sometimes that's the only way, as much as anyone would advise otherwise.

 

FORTUNATELY, this is not something that will kill her, and won't even result in permanent damage. But it's going to be a learning experience, and all learning experiences involve "personal damage."

 

We can try to steer someone not to go too far, but in general, people don't really learn the lessons they need to learn by theorizing how bad things can get; only by how bad things DID get (and I don't think that's just me), and feeling in their bones what that's like. We learn our boundaries by compromising them too many times, until we're fed up beyond fed up. So I'm just saying, this is what we have to work with -- so work with it.

 

I do feel a change in mindset though, since our "talk," and I"m now clear that we are sexually exclusive whereas before there was always this doubt in my mind he might be sleeping around. I am now accepting that this could be over in a snap and that he really can't afford much more of a meaningful relationship. I haven't seen him since that talk.

 

And in your other post and I think HelpExpress also mentioned the belief that I might find our dynamics different now because "new info" has been laid on the table. I don't know how that would mentally/physically change my relationship with him yet because I've been putting off seeing him to gain clarity and strength.

 

I would like to have sex with him, at least one last time, just to see how the mental/physical dynamics may have been altered since our talk.

[Hermes]

You say:

 

"I would like to have sex with him, at least one last time, just to see how the mental/physical dynamics may have been altered since our talk"

 

Oh well, in the heat of the night you never know what kind of epiphany you may both reach.

 

Back to square one, and on with the marathon thread. Lol.

[boltnrun]

Naomi, you'd be releasing bonding chemicals. I can pretty much guarantee you won't walk away if you have sex with him again.

 

I always recommend people imagine the future with things the way they are now. Could you be OK with this going on just as it is for the next 6 months? A year? Five years?

[Hermes]

AS Wily said:

 

"Maybe she could negotiate for more contact between dates, and to stay the night occasionally, and the other things that she feels are missing.

"

[ThatwasThen]

Naomi... why don't you just go and offer your drama free vag again? What is keeping you from doing that and just getting it over with. Its pretty clear at this point that that is what you want to do and let your emotional chips fall where they may. If it wasn't what you wanted to do, you would have clearly told him by now that you were not happy with such a casual relationship and you would have been done with avoiding him and his text and you would now be IGNORING any text from him that didn't say "will you marry me."

 

I'll just say that I truly believe that recommending that someone continue on in their drug of choice until they are angry at themselves is enabling dialogue at it's finest. (you call it beautifully summarizing however). You don't think so, but reading that does enable you to have that "clarity" you say you want which is more like, by all accounts, you getting permission to keep at it and not have to face being without your drug of choice while not feeling guilty that you're doing or feeling that you're letting yourself down for settling. I'm not in your head but from your posts the vibe seems to have merit.

 

You're not ready for cold turkey withdrawl so why not get another hit of Doc and let us know how you feel afterwards down the line when/if ever you get to that stage of hitting your rock bottom and ready to let go? Hopefully you won't be shredded for it as you continue on in the status quo.

[Naomi99]

This is an interesting point.

 

Maybe everything we've been discussing is just semantics.

 

Naomi has said she doesn't want marriage. The doctor says they are exclusive, so he's not sleeping with other women. Is there really such a big gap between what they want?

 

Maybe she could negotiate for more contact between dates, and to stay the night occasionally, and the other things that she feels are missing.

 

Is it fair to blame him for little contact between dates when you don't pick up the phone when he calls?

 

How weird…was talking exactly about this with my GFs. He's been contacting every day to hang out since Wed. I am guessing he's pretty hard up. I'm going to say, "Okay, I'll come over. And I'll be spending the night, you punk."

[boltnrun]

I have a friend who continues to stay in a marriage where her husband cheats on her and treats her horribly.

 

She continually complains, and I ask her "so what are you going to DO about it??" And she says "I guess I'll just see how it goes"...which means, she will do NOTHING about it.

 

After a while I started to feel like it was pointless for her to complain when she won't do anything to change the situation. One of my favorite phrases is "when you change nothing, nothing changes".

 

So, Naomi, you most certainly could continue on, keep having the great sex you love so much, keep giving him your body and your love, but it would have to be with the full knowledge that what you're currently getting is ALL you'll be getting from him, and not a speck more.

 

OR...you could ask for more, OR you could tell him the relationship isn't working for you and walk away, 100%, with no "friend" sex and no "hanging out" together. In essence, make changes so that something changes for YOU (keeping in mind you can't change him, only how you choose to deal with him).

 

Stay stagnant, or make some ripples and freshen the water.

[Hermes]

How do you mean "hard up"? No groceries in the house for the past while, no food, no company. Maybe he's even got round to considering a crash course in parking properly. You never know!

 

You did say in some earlier post that he is a "gentleman", so it should be no trouble to him to be told about the gentlemanly (as in considerate) things he needs to do and which you feel are missing from the arrangement.

[ThatwasThen]

How weird…was talking exactly about this with my GFs. He's been contacting every day to hang out since Wed. I am guessing he's pretty hard up. I'm going to say, "Okay, I'll come over. And I'll be spending the night, you punk."

 

That's great. Just don't have e.x.p.e.c.t.a.t.i.o.n.s.

 

Especially unvoiced one's where what you expect doesn't materialize and you've once again disappointed yourself while blaming him for not being more "boyfriendy"

[tiredofvampires]

Naomi... why don't you just go and offer your drama free vag again?

 

You're not ready for cold turkey withdrawl so why not get another hit of Doc and let us know how you feel afterwards down the line when/if ever you get to that stage of hitting your rock bottom and ready to let go? Hopefully you won't be shredded for it as you continue on in the status quo.

 

I'll just say that I truly believe that recommending that someone continue on in their drug of choice until they are angry at themselves is enabling dialogue at it's finest.

 

How is what you said above, then, in the first quote, not "enabling"? Sounds like you and I are saying something similar to Naomi (with a different tone).

 

Just saying. Not to derail.

[ThatwasThen]

How is what you said above, then, in the first quote, not "enabling"? Sounds like you and I are saying something similar to Naomi (with a different tone).

I'm not suggesting she do that in the least. I'm asking her why doesn't she do that since by all accounts, it is what she is wanting to do and is glad to hear that you have, in a sense, given her permission to go ahead because it goes hand in hand with what she wants to do. If she didn't want to continue on then she would have told him that what he offers her is not enough. Which it isn't. If it was, this thread wouldn't exist.

[journeynow]

How weird…was talking exactly about this with my GFs. He's been contacting every day to hang out since Wed. I am guessing he's pretty hard up. I'm going to say, "Okay, I'll come over. And I'll be spending the night, you punk."

 

Earlier you called him "sweetie", now he's "you punk." You say he's handsome, a gentleman, yet with the emotional intelligence of a pumpkin (or, I think that's what you said). Why is this a good thing for you?

[Hermes]

Yes, Journeynow.

Naomi applied many good adjectives to this man. Also that he is quite a talented musician, I think she once said.

 

So, where do we stand?

[boltnrun]

Naomi, are you angry at yourself for wanting him so much?

[tiredofvampires]

I'm not suggesting she do that in the least. I'm asking her why doesn't she do that since by all accounts, it is what she is wanting to do and is glad to hear that you have, in a sense, given her permission to go ahead because it goes hand in hand with what she wants to do. If she didn't want to continue on then she would have told him that what he offers her is not enough. Which it isn't. If it was, this thread wouldn't exist.

 

I know that you know "permission" is a kind of odd word for this context, since I cannot permit nor forbid her from doing anything.

 

You are giving me (and other posters who are trying to persuade her not to touch the hot stove) way too much power.

 

I'm listening to what she's saying, and it's this, in a nustshell: "I'm not ready to quit him. I feel I'm going to probably sleep with him again." It's there in the lines, as well as in between the lines.

 

So she's going to do what she's going to do, and my response is to meet her where she's at, which is: sometimes you have to hit rock bottom, and that's the only way to really be finished with something that's hurting you. It's likely that you can't let him go because you have yet to find that visceral point where you know you can't go on. In the end, even a drug counselor will say this, if a client is talking the way Naomi is. What else CAN they say?

 

That's a fact of life -- that sometimes people don't know what they need to do until they hit a certain wall. It's not my opinion as a poster.

 

My name here is "tiredofvampires" because I had to get to the point of being so sick of emotional vampires, that I made it a vow to spot them and avoid them. But I had to learn what I wouldn't accept the hard way: by going back too many times to rationalize or negotiate non-negotiable, untenable situations. Hard lessons, hard facts, hard life. (And I'm still prone to slipping -- I'm just so much better at it than I used to be.)

 

Life is not kind to people who are ruled by their hearts more than their heads (even if they possess strong mental faculties). But I feel seasoned for the lessons I've learned, and that's the good thing. When Naomi gets to be my age, hopefully she will see a suave and dashing bachelor like this doctor, laugh, and think NO WAY. NEVER AGAIN. Been there, done that. And she will briefly recall all the pain she felt after going back to him, wince, and feel the grace of having become so much stronger as a result.

 

If she feels validated by what I've written, it's not because I planted ideas into her head -- it's because I'm echoing what's already there, and is not up for refutation.

 

That she is processing all this is all to the good, and I think it could change the course of this, even if she sleeps with him again. I'd hope. She's in a different place than she was at the start of this thread. Change is happening, however slowly. But all these words here are not going to "make" her do anything, one way or the other.

 

As I said before -- no one can learn their lessons before they learn them, and no one can make us learn our lessons for us. It sucks. I hate it too. But don't shoot the messenger.

[Hermes]

TOV. I think Naomi will do EXACTLY as she pleases, regardless of the multiple posts here.

 

However, I feel I have to ask, yet again, did this man, this bachelor, drag her by the hair to his den. I don't think so. Also, I did ask but was not told how, where or when they met. Was she seeking a man of this kind? As she doesn't want to get married then perhaps subconsciously he actually fits the bill.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but what I am hearing is that he just has some remediable defects (which might come under the heading of "manners") as otherwise maybe he is the right candidate.

 

In the deep, dark of the night, who knows what a couple is saying to each other.....

[Batya33]

"Life is not kind to people who are ruled by their hearts more than their heads (even if they possess strong mental faculties)."

 

But we can't be sure if it's ruled by her heart or otherwise -there are many different reasons people return to unhealthy situations.

[tiredofvampires]

I don't think Doc is to blame (as in, he has not deceived her). I have already said that she's asking too much of him to expect him to relinquish her. For the most part, human nature doesn't work like that. Selfishness doesn't play out as selflessness. By definition, if you're with a selfish man, he will behave selfishly.

 

I don't think they are looking for the same things out of this, only with semantics getting in the way. There's one big imbalance here, and why she will never get her needs met, however you define their arrangement: HE DOESN'T LOVE HER. (At least by my definition of love, and probably hers, too. Love, to me, is not "fondness" or "affection" from feeling gratified).

 

He doesn't love her.

 

He doesn't love her.

 

He DOESN'T LOVE YOU, NAOMI. AND HE WON'T LOVE YOU.

 

I don't think that's sunk in. It's too painful. But that's the disparity.

 

It's up to you, Naomi, to read that writing on the wall and act on it. That's where I agree with everyone.

 

The only thing I've said different, is that if you can't act on that, or it hasn't sunk in that it's only you who can end this (yes, you are going to have to be the one to pull the plug, if not now, later) because he doesn't love you and he'll keep on getting his, I have faith you'll eventually reach that conclusion; because at some point, the anger you're expressing here will reach a critical mass. I'm just talking about a natural progression. Which if I say *out loud* will in fact help make you more cognizant of it (I hope).

[ThatwasThen]

That's a fact of life -- that sometimes people don't know what they need to do until they hit a certain wall. It's not my opinion as a poster.

*Adding: I don't think that is a reason to forsake giving advise on why she shouldn't stay and instead that she can rely on her good personal boundaries and healthy sense of self-worth to get out without having the pain of hitting walls when casual isn't really her end dating goal*

 

Yes, you are correct that sometime (and some) people don't know what they need until they hit a certain wall unfortunately some never do hit that "wall" or when they do, it takes years of therapy and work to get back what they lost in themselves as they continue on in the very thing that they didn't want in the first place.

 

Anyway: Why don't you just see him and get on with getting on. What other "clarity" or "strength" do you need, Naomi? It is what it is.

[ThatwasThen]

Sorry reposting due to so many edits

 

That's a fact of life -- that sometimes people don't know what they need to do until they hit a certain wall. It's not my opinion as a poster.

*Adding: I don't think that is a reason to forsake giving advise on why she shouldn't stay and instead that she can rely on her good personal boundaries and healthy sense of self-worth to get out without having the pain of hitting walls when casual isn't really her end dating goal*

 

Yes, you are correct that sometime (and some) people don't know what they need until they hit a certain wall unfortunately some never do hit that "wall" or when they do, it takes years of therapy and work to get back what they lost in themselves as they continue on in the very thing that they didn't want in the first place.

 

Anyway: Why don't you just see him and get on with getting on. What other "clarity" or "strength" do you need, Naomi? It is what it is.

[Ms Darcy]

So I wonder if we are operating under a bit of a false premise. The premise is that people should get what they want/say they want.

 

I have a couple of co-workers who believe they should advance to a management level. They, however, don't have the temperament, attire, or communications skills to do so. So, people listen to them gripe and sometimes even give advice but nothing changes. They don't take classes, listen to feedback or reflective on self. And they stay stuck in those jobs. I think a certain amount of the stagnation comes from fear ... fear of trying and failing.

 

I have personally had relationship goals of marriage and family, which required me to get fit, address childhood issues, and grow in many ways because I had a timestamp. I wanted to marry and have kids before I hit 40.

 

Point ... what would Naomi's motivation be to change things if there isn't a sense of urgency? It could be that is at least louder than the fear of being alone.

 

Another consideration is that (I apologize in advance for saying this) everybody wants a relationship but not everyone is suitable for one. Some people are too selfish, some are not particularly faithful, some are not communicative, and others have poor boundaries ... etc.

 

I know it sounds terrible to say but some people may have traits that make management a bad choice for them, perhaps a relationship is not for Naomi. I mean, she's independent, doesn't particularly want to share a life/home/commitment with someone, and has talked about not wanting another failed long-term relationship.

 

In that way, the change here would need to be Naomi's expectations. Not a relationship with the doctor or anyone and no expectations of boyfriend like behaviour. The problem is that whole love part she feels. That's the biggest block to a successful fwb situation.

[wilyone 11]

Yes, Journeynow.

Naomi applied many good adjectives to this man. Also that he is quite a talented musician, I think she once said.

 

So, where do we stand?

 

Yes, good question.

 

Anyone want to volunteer to prepare daily executive summaries of key developments and comments?

 

Not sure I have time to keep up with all the posts, but I feel deeply invested. Like I've read 400 pages of a romance novel and am dying to see what happens....But I hope Naomi doesn't feel pressured to deliver an exceptional climax lol.

[Naomi99]

I wanted to sleep with him again, but right now I feel like the best thing to do is break up with him via text.

 

I'm crushed, but I see no other way. I'm tired of this. Of him.

 

I don't even want to say I enjoyed the time we spent together. I want to text something simple like, "It's over. I'm sorry."

[missmarple]

I want to text something simple like, "It's over. I'm sorry."

 

'It's over, don't text me again' would be better, in my opinion