8 months and still casual…leave or stay?

[Naomi99]

Just a little FYI:

 

He texted me Wednesday noon and I responded Thursday morning. I did respond nicely and I apologized for not responding sooner…

I wasn't playing cat-mouse games either. I truly did NOT know what to say…as you can see real-time in my posts all of the options I had thought of.

I didn't hear from him for six days, so waiting 18 hours to hear back from me isn't going to kill him. I truly didn't know what approach to take, so I waited.

 

I have a class to go to, but I wanted to tell TIREDOFVAMPIRES I LOVED your post…talk about radical thinking. And yes, I have been imagining sex with him all week and is killing me.

 

I will comment more later. Thank you, tiredofvampires, for taking the time to type all of that out. Appreciated.

[tiredofvampires]

Oh, sorry, I may have missed a couple of the details (admittedly, I haven't been able to read the entire thread/every post, but enough to get a firm sense of the essence).

 

But my major points remain, about the obsession-producing nature of self-restraint and the rest.

 

There are situations in this world where self-restraint is absolutely essential, and there are cases where it's not enough.

[Naomi99]

Oh, sorry, I may have missed a couple of the details (admittedly, I haven't been able to read the entire thread/every post, but enough to get a firm sense of the essence).

 

But my major points remain, about the obsession-producing nature of self-restraint and the rest.

 

There are situations in this world where self-restraint is absolutely essential, and there are cases where it's not enough.

 

No apologies! How can you be expected to remember every detail in this 800 post thread? I don't even remember mentioning it either.

Thank you so much for your viewpoint.

[ThatwasThen]

I agree with u but I am smarter than to accept role of victim.

For soem reason I am supposed to recognize HIS actions and conclude he only wants casual. You all said it. watch his actions. But he gets to gloss over my actions if being hesitant with texts and turning down dates or,......how about brining him food and doing GF things? He gets to dismiss my actions that i am caring more and more, but I'm supposed to be fully cognizant of his noncommittal actions?

Yes... that is exactly right. If after you give girlfriend things more then once or twice and HIS actions don't show you that he is giving you boyfriend things then you either quit him altogether or you quit that stuff that you think shows him you want more.

 

If you're giving because that's the way you are and you don't expect anything else in return, then fine. However: if you're giving in the hopes that your giving is going to garner you a boyfriend, well then ...

 

Every time you keep giving to someone who keeps taking but never reciprocates that's YOU not having your own best interests in mind. Would you keep investing in a stock that never showed you any return? No... so why did you keep investing your emotions and your "girlfriend actions" when he never showed you return?

 

Adding:

Double standard, indeed.

It's Hardly a double standard when one is able to see the forest for the trees.

[Naomi99]

I feel like my entire point is being missed, but that's okay. Love you anyway.

 

My point has nothing to do with "giving," per se, or reciprocation or investing in a dead-end relationship. It has to do with observing actions. Remember: Actions is the focal point. Giving is NOT the focal point.

 

My actions have been increasingly more GF-like, accommodating, sweet, remembering things he likes, etc. I never told him how I felt, but my "actions" are pretty blatant (with the exception of initiating dates/texts). He is not blind to them. But it's somehow acceptable or okay for him to sit back and enjoy all of this, never initiating a talk, knowing full well my actions are not in alignment with what he wants: to be single. Where is his social responsibility toward someone he cares about? Where does his responsibility fall to say, "You know, you've been doing all these kind things for me and I love it, but I hope I'm not misleading you. I don't want a serious GF right now. Are you okay with that?"

 

 

Why doesn't this apply to men??? If her actions are not in alignment with what he wants (he doesn't want a serious relationship), then he should leave or initiate a talk!!! He did none of those because he benefitted twofold from staying silent, and THAT IS DISHONEST.

 

You guys keep saying "If only Naomi was honest from the start."

 

That's where the double standard comes in.

 

It's like the sleazy used car salesmen who "omits" information about a lemon car and takes the money anyway watching the wide-eyed excited customer drive away. Oh, yeah, but it's the customer's fault because they never asked, right?

[Naomi99]

And I'm not playing victim either….I fully accept responsibility for where we are at right now.

 

I'm just stating food for thought.

 

it is what it is.

[Ms Darcy]

I kind of think Naomi, with all due respect, that you are creating drama on this thread to keep it going/avoid making a decision.

 

It's okay... it's a fun thread.

 

But it's hard to take it completely seriously when Hermes and I have posted several times about how a. He told you in no uncertain terms that he doesn't want a relationship with you and b. How you did not answer yes or no to his question about if you want a relationship.

 

All of this other stuff is kind of background noise.

[Naomi99]

I kind of think Naomi, with all due respect, that you are creating drama on this thread to keep it going/avoid making a decision. .

 

 

But I'm not. I hate drama. I like to hear everything before I make a decision. And I am obsessed with the sex and it clouds my judgment. And posting helps with good writing skills.

 

If I could, I would erase that last gigantic post. It doesn't need any response, then, if it will be creating drama.

[Ms Darcy]

Btw, I have emphasized to some of our posters, depthoffield, coldarmy, and other male posters, that they need to ask the women they are dating for a relationship.instead of assuming exclusivity.

 

And I see enough of the regulars here do that to feel regulars here do that to feel like the key is that the dissatisfied person ... not the woman ... is told to communicate.

[journeynow]

I do not understand where this is going.

 

And I would think girlfriend behavior would include initiating dates and texts, reciprocating dinners out with dinners out, invites over with invites over. Cooking at his house because he invited you over, or rearranging his spice drawer doesn't have the meaning for me that it seems to for you, I would not assume it's because you want something serious. Your actions are blatant to you, but to someone else it could seem that you are happy with things as they are, because you are not expressing anything nor are you initiating anything.

 

I must have missed where folks are saying "if only" you were honest from the start, because I thought you didn't know what you wanted. People have been saying to talk to him now, IF you know what you want.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "social responsibility". What is clear is that you are not happy with him, don't seem to particularly like him, but are enjoying the sex, plus he's good looking and sophisticated.

 

Be careful about expectations in friendships and casual relationships, the "shoulds" you listed. Not everyone sees eye to eye, thinks the same, reads people the same, or reads minds. People "should" floss their teeth, call their mothers, vote, remember my birthday, but they don't. But you don't have to be with him if it makes you mad that he's not behaving the way you think he should. It doesn't need to be about men or women, it is about this dynamic you have with him.

[journeynow]

Why doesn't this apply to men??? If her actions are not in alignment with what he wants (he doesn't want a serious relationship), then he should leave or initiate a talk!!! He did none of those because he benefitted twofold from staying silent, and THAT IS DISHONEST.

 

It's not about men, imbalances could go either way, men or women. and bringing up the issue is usually the responsibility for the one it is an issue for. I don't know, but sounds kind of like poor boundaries thinking "You must speak up for me because I'm not going to. You're happy, I'm not happy because I'm more invested than you, so you fix it." Your being unhappy but not expressing or leaving is no less dishonest than he not leaving because he's happy with the sex, affection, and cooking.

[boltnrun]

So, this is what I see:

 

Pros to continuing with the doctor - great sex, his "scent", feeling "wanted".

 

Cons - just about everything else.

 

Have I missed anything?

[ThatwasThen]

And I'm not playing victim either….I fully accept responsibility for where we are at right now.

 

I'm just stating food for thought.

 

it is what it is.

Its not so much that you're playing victim but more like some people are posting as if you are one.

 

However: This is you acting a victim.

Why doesn't this apply to men??? If her actions are not in alignment with what he wants (he doesn't want a serious relationship), then he should leave or initiate a talk!!! He did none of those because he benefitted twofold from staying silent, and THAT IS DISHONEST.

He showed you and he told you. Its not up to him to tell you more then once. It really isn't AND.... Believe it or not it's not just men who take when its freely given. It's PEOPLE who do that.

[ThatwasThen]

It's not about men, imbalances could go either way, men or women. and bringing up the issue is usually the responsibility for the one it is an issue for. I don't know, but sounds kind of like poor boundaries thinking "You must speak up for me because I'm not going to. You're happy, I'm not happy because I'm more invested than you, so you fix it." Your being unhappy but not expressing or leaving is no less dishonest than he not leaving because he's happy with the sex, affection, and cooking.

This, this, this. Did I say "this?"

[itsallgrand]

It comes down to your ability to say "No" willingly to what you see as amazing sex.

 

I get how it can be addictive. But you still are in control. The hoo haw doesn't run the show unless you let her .

 

And this is a taste of what happens when you let her. You barely even like him anymore.

 

Decide your limits now of how 'dark' you want to go before you will stop. Personally I think sleeping with someone to the point where there is disgust is going down that track of dark, unhealthy. And it could cause personal damage.

 

But I also get that for some people, part of the 'fun' of continuing in a situation like this is the perceived loss of control. You are assigning more and more responsibility to Doc as time goes on. Just be mindful of that. Slippery slope.

[tiredofvampires]

It comes down to your ability to say "No" willingly to what you see as amazing sex.

 

I get how it can be addictive. But you still are in control. The hoo haw doesn't run the show unless you let her .

 

Andgthis is a taste of what happens when you let her. You barely even like him anymore.

 

Decide your limits now of how 'dark' you want to go before you will stop. Personally I think sleeping with someone to the point where there is disgust is going down that track of dark, unhealthy. And it could cause personal damage.

But I also get that for some people, part of the 'fun' of continuing in a situation like this is the perceived loss of control. You are assigning more and more responsibility to Doc as time goes on. Just be mindful of that. Slippery slope.

 

Everything you say here (minus the part that is bolded), I wholeheartedly concur with. My first post on this thread was a simple piece of advice: rip the bandaid off, cry later. And that prolonging this only makes it harder to extricate oneself. I'm with everyone else, wishing that Naomi would just release this man and deal with the grieving process, the feeling of loss. Someone else said it correctly: facing the aloneness and singledom is a fear that is largely driving this (not just wanting this particular man). Being without him is going to leave a big hole unfilled (not being literal, Naomi) that she'd have to face, and I'm all for her facing that dead on.

 

But she said she is addicted to him and the sex they have. I think that's an accurate assessment. She gets dopamine, oxytocin, and endorphin highs from this the way a heroin addict gets opioid highs (plus she likely wonders if she will ever feel this way again with someone else, and is scared of never having this chemistry again with someone -- which isn't true, Naomi! Lots of men could make you feel this great in bed, but with all the rest you want!). So just like a junkie on drugs, who knows their habit is corrosive, prevents them from progressing, and keeps them chained and reliant despite their better judgment and even emotional repulsion (addicts don't usually even like what they're using anymore, but it serves a purpose for them), she has not been able to "decide her limits." And what other "limits" would she put on this? Either she keeps this affair up or doesn't, there is no in-between, it's not like they're going to hang out at the movies together and that's it. Both of them would want more. If she could "stop", she would have. Long ago. She's been rationalizing this to to herself for a long time. She has known since the beginning that he isn't relationship material, even though it wasn't explicitly discussed; and however she may have been confused about what she really wanted, she knows now that she's not cut out to continue this way, on these terms. But she is still not resolved to quit him or this -- hundreds of posts later. She says she doesn't know if she's strong enough yet, she doesn't want to cut him off and then come running back in regret, so she's paralyzed to act on her conviction -- even though she now knows exactly what this is about for him and what she won't get from this.

 

So it's already gone into "dark, unhealthy." And it's already personally damaging.

 

I don't like fixating on the concept of addiction if it doesn't apply, but it's quite legitimate here. So then, it's like saying, "the cigarettes/crack/food/etc.etc. don't run the show unless you let them." We're past that point already. Way past. The sex and the hoo hah have been running the show for 8 months now, and it seems a little past the point of "deciding a limit" beyond which she will not go. She's already crossed over the line she really would have wanted for herself. She can't stand the withdrawals, and it's predominating over her "better judgment".

 

So while I am certainly not advocating someone dig themselves a deeper hole just to test their limits, and I agree we all ultimately have control over our decisions (though chemical reward system in the brain is pretty powerful, especially when tied to powerful emotions), I am only advising based on where Naomi seems to be "at." Like any person who seems to have lost control of the wheel and lost contact with a feeling of being able to change course, the next best thing is to observe and feel where this leads until some kind of "rock bottom" or breaking point is reached. "Just say no" is all good until you "just" can't. "Can't", that is. Unfortunately, sometimes that's the only way, as much as anyone would advise otherwise.

 

FORTUNATELY, this is not something that will kill her, and won't even result in permanent damage. But it's going to be a learning experience, and all learning experiences involve "personal damage."

 

We can try to steer someone not to go too far, but in general, people don't really learn the lessons they need to learn by theorizing how bad things can get; only by how bad things DID get (and I don't think that's just me), and feeling in their bones what that's like. We learn our boundaries by compromising them too many times, until we're fed up beyond fed up. So I'm just saying, this is what we have to work with -- so work with it.

[tiredofvampires]

Let me add though that if Naomi, you do turn around and walk away from this, I'd say that was great. The best decision, of course. I just want to be clear I'm not advising the OP to sleep with the doctor. I'm advising that if she "caves", that she use it to her greatest benefit, because the realization and resolve needed may come more swiftly or fully than it would seem now, and that would amount to a personal growth spurt.

 

Whatever it takes to learn something fully, I say. That will be different for everyone.

[missmarple]

IMy actions have been increasingly more GF-like, accommodating, sweet, remembering things he likes, etc. I never told him how I felt, but my "actions" are pretty blatant (with the exception of initiating dates/texts). He is not blind to them. But it's somehow acceptable or okay for him to sit back and enjoy all of this, never initiating a talk, knowing full well my actions are not in alignment with what he wants: to be single.Where is his social responsibility toward someone he cares about? Where does his responsibility fall to say, "You know, you've been doing all these kind things for me and I love it, but I hope I'm not misleading you. I don't want a serious GF right now. Are you okay with that?"

 

I wouldn't assume that just because someone is sweet to me and remembers things I like and he sleeps with me, etc, that he wants a relationship with me.

When I was younger I had had a couple of friends with benefits and both of them were really sweet and nice with me, and not just when we slept together. It would never cross my mind to tell them 'you know, I hope I'm not misleading you'..since I had already made it clear to them that I didn't want a b/f at the time.

 

Some things need to be discussed. It has nothing to do with whether someone is male or female. It's about stating what you want. Never assume or expect others to assume.

[abitbroken]

My bf told me that sometimes guys can be dense. That I had to be direct with him because he doesn't get "hints". He doesn't like to play guessing games - so doesn't. He doesn't say "oh, she just did this and so therefore she is acting like a girlfriend". He felt how he felt about me and whether doing "girlfriend" thngs or not, it didn't change or influence how he felt. I couldn't just slide into being his girlfriend by doing "girlfriend things", in otherwords. He either felt that way about me or not and it wasn't about performing a role and him waking up and thinking "she cooks for us, she dresses up when she sees me, etc, wow, that's girlfriend stuff" On his end, he acted like himself. He didn't try to do boyfriend-like things or know what that was - but I stuck with him and feel its a fulfilling relationship because the way we both are naturally without trying to be girlfriend-y or boyfriend-y works together.

In my view, you can't talk about reciprocating - because you never did. You never picked up the phone and called until recently. You never initiated dates. The pattern was - he invites, you come. reciprocating would be you call him and tell him you had a great time and then YOU invite him.

 

What you want to be reciprocated is what is going on in your head - the thinking intently about him between seeing him, etc, I think. abnd that's mind reading.

 

Anyway - decide what you want and do it.

[Hermes]

Journeynow:

 

That is the one first class post:

 

And I am going to copy it here in the hope it is read yet again.

 

"I do not understand where this is going.

 

And I would think girlfriend behavior would include initiating dates and texts, reciprocating dinners out with dinners out, invites over with invites over. Cooking at his house because he invited you over, or rearranging his spice drawer doesn't have the meaning for me that it seems to for you, I would not assume it's because you want something serious. Your actions are blatant to you, but to someone else it could seem that you are happy with things as they are, because you are not expressing anything nor are you initiating anything.

 

I must have missed where folks are saying "if only" you were honest from the start, because I thought you didn't know what you wanted. People have been saying to talk to him now, IF you know what you want.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "social responsibility". What is clear is that you are not happy with him, don't seem to particularly like him, but are enjoying the sex, plus he's good looking and sophisticated.

 

Be careful about expectations in friendships and casual relationships, the "shoulds" you listed. Not everyone sees eye to eye, thinks the same, reads people the same, or reads minds. People "should" floss their teeth, call their mothers, vote, remember my birthday, but they don't. But you don't have to be with him if it makes you mad that he's not behaving the way you think he should. It doesn't need to be about men or women, it is about this dynamic you have with him."

[Hermes]

Yes, Ms. Darcy. You said it in a nutshell.

 

"But it's hard to take it completely seriously when Hermes and I have posted several times about how a. He told you in no uncertain terms that he doesn't want a relationship with you and b. How you did not answer yes or no to his question about if you want a relationship.

 

All of this other stuff is kind of background noise."

 

You see, Ms. Darcy, you and I are telling it like how it is, (not always welcome!) and then there are the philosophical digressions on the nefarious ways of MEN (the implication being all men).

 

I am somewhat amused, or bemused. Dr. Who is going from being "sweet, affectionate, refreshing, fun, talented, great in the sack, and a host of other lovely adjectives I don't remember" to being compared to a sleazy car salesman. Lol.

 

As for that analogy, anyone buying a used car from a dealer, no matter how reputable, would get the car checked by an independent mechanic. I know I would.

Which brings us very neatly to something I have not seen you mention, Naomi. How, where and when did you first buy this particular used car (Dr. Who)? Please, please do not tell me it was online (the worst car dealer in the world lol!). So, your eyes met accross a crowded room, or you were introduced, or you met in the supermarket aisle, or on the beach, in the rush-hour traffic.

 

What vibe did you get in the first 24 hours of your meeting.

[StudioFaces]

I just got out of a relationship just like this. I also want to apologize for the rude replies you've gotten. Some people just haven't experienced what you're experiencing, so they don't really understand your dilemma and reply with what they think they'd do in that event.

When we would meet, I'd want to talk about commitment and chicken out. He was never mean to me or dishonest as I could tell. But always very flirtatious with other women in front of me as both of us were. He was very good looking ironman triathlon, poetry, artist, good in bed, all the ladies and boys wanted him kind of guy. I told myself that we were having fun and there was no need to talk about it. I slowly started to drive myself insane. After meeting I started stalking his blog, searching frantically for clues and answers. I started isolating from friends and family and became very depressed. I'm not going to go into details, but I ended up showing up at his house unannounced. We are no longer friends at all.

This is the type of man I like and I always attract but when I have them, I turn into a dark mush of insecurity. He said that you two are exclusive, don't ask for commitment because of what your friends or family feel like it's what you need. It's ok if you don't want a traditional sort of relationship.

[ThatwasThen]

I've yet to see a "rude" reply.

 

This thread would have been shut down if there were that going on.

[wilyone 11]

This is an interesting point.

 

Maybe everything we've been discussing is just semantics.

 

Naomi has said she doesn't want marriage. The doctor says they are exclusive, so he's not sleeping with other women. Is there really such a big gap between what they want?

 

Maybe she could negotiate for more contact between dates, and to stay the night occasionally, and the other things that she feels are missing.

 

Is it fair to blame him for little contact between dates when you don't pick up the phone when he calls?

[Hermes]

TWT. I haven't seen any rude replies here either, but yes, a lot of patience, and a fair bit of sensible advice.

 

You are right, Wily. That's more or less what I've been wondering. Is there such a big gap between what Naomi and Dr. Who want.