8 months and still casual…leave or stay?

[wilyone 11]

Anyway, I can't cut him out of my life just yet because I still need him to call in a prescription for Latisse.

 

BTW, if Latisse is an excuse to hang onto this guy, you know you can buy it online (at a good price) without a prescription right? link removed

[Hermes]

Yeh, East, isn't it great. Everything in Europe is perfect.

I am in Europe too btw. And there sure are a lot of people around sleeping together, and some may be heading for marriage and a lot are not.

 

Anyhow, I am so glad to hear you are glad to be dating in "Europe".

 

However, this thread IMO is not about comparing the wonderful status of things European with the dismal status of ALL dating/sleeping together couples on other continents.

[wilyone 11]

He texted me AGAIN this PM while I was at the gym, asking me to come over. That makes four times he tried to come here or get me to go there. What is happening???? Never really seen him this persistent before.

 

No, I didn't go.

 

What's happening is that he is getting VERY NERVOUS that he is going to lose you.

 

He has a fantastic thing going. Vagina on a stick as you call it haha. Believe it or not, I'm sure he is at least somewhat attached to you and has feelings for you. To keep the upper hand in the relationship, he pretends that he can take you or leave you but it's an act.

 

His nervousness is making him act a bit more persistent and desperate for lack of a better word. It won't last long if you see him and act like nothing has happened (which is his agenda). I've been there.

[Hermes]

Heh. Naomi's situation is beginning to take on all the appearance of a game of poker. Bluff, double-bluff, call the bluff, and no aces in sight.

 

Is the doctor nervous with the hand of cards he's holding? Is Naomi not to certain of how to play her hand?

 

Maybe, as advised in "The Gambler" it is time to get up from the table and call it a day.

[reinventmyself]

He texted me AGAIN this PM while I was at the gym, asking me to come over. That makes four times he tried to come here or get me to go there. What is happening???? Never really seen him this persistent before.

 

No, I didn't go.

Because he's not used to getting resistance from you.

He likes the challenge. . but when the challenge is over, what exactly do you have?

[abitbroken]

He texted you - you didn't answer. You usually answer. So obviously he wants to know what the deal is (are you dead? ignoring him? Not get his text?) You could have stopped this drama by just texting him back. Telling him you were busy or "Although I appreciate you wanting to come over, I know that we would end up in bed and I don't want to get sucked back in right now. And I don't want that." When you just go radio silence when you didn't actually break up - it is rude in a way. this "persistence' he has is being created. He is not suddenly fearing he will lose sex - it is that you always text him back and he asked you a question. You are making the drama at this point. That would be too much stress for me. I'd just want to cut to the chase. If I didn't know what I wanted, I would just respond something to get the person off my back for a day so I could think and get back to them. So either break up with the doctor, or decline the plan with him.

[reinventmyself]

How about setting a time frame? Tell him you need some space to reflect and not to contact you for a couple weeks.

This will give you the time detach a little and gain some objectivity.

[Ms Darcy]

He told you what he wants. What's happening (sex, no commitment) and no relationship.

 

He asked you what you want. You hemmed and didn't give a straight answer (I have too think about it .... sometimes ...). That's hardly clarifying.

 

He has said in words AND actions what he wants.

 

You have implied but when he asked for clarification, you backed off. That's called mixed messaging.

[Naomi99]

What's up with texting you all the time? Why the EFF doesn't he pick up the phone, hold it to his ear and CALL you if he wants to see you so much? Is he afraid if what you might say?

 

OR...is his MO to always text? If so...lazy, lazy him.

 

He used to but I rarely picked up the phone for him or anyone else. I'm always in meetings and I really do not like talking on the phone. He'd call, leave a message, and I'd text back. Pretty soon, he quit calling unless it was an emergency.

[Naomi99]

About the "giving/taking" complaint. If you are giving and want nothing in return, what's wrong with the person accepting the gift you've offered? If you expect something in return BUT DON'T VOICE IT, then it is not fair to accuse the other person of being offensive..

 

In a few posts above when I complained about over-giving, that was NOT in relation to the subject of being an over-giver, per se.

It was in direct response into reading someone's actions.

 

According to some posters here, if I paid attention to the doctor's actions, he did nothing to indicate he wanted a long-term relationship and kept me at arm's distance, and I should pay attention to what he his actions, what he does. He doesn't need to volunteer anything or initiate a talk with me to see where we are at because the responsibility is ON ME to observe actions.

 

SO BY THE SAME TOKEN…if he paid attention to MY actions (around month three, cooking, making note of his favorite desserts, getting more bold in the bedroom with things only reserved for BFs, way more affection, deeper conversations) he would observe I was being swept up into something deeper, and he should pay attention to what I was doing. I shouldn't need to volunteer my feelings or have a talk with him to tell him where I'm at because, just like it's my responsibility to observe his actions, he has the same responsibility toward me!

 

See my point? This has NOTHING to do with giving/taking. This has to do with both of us being aware of each other's actions and being socially responsible for their feelings because we---well, we care and wouldn't want to hurt or mislead the other person.

 

Double standard, indeed.

[Helpexpressme]

He won't look at your actions Naomi.

 

1. He dosn't want to see what you do for him, because he is not interested. He does not want to feel responsible for any of your feelings, anything you feel is up to you.

2. He is there for a purely sexual time, no strings, drama free, sex.

 

I think that arrangement was alright with you, but you got to know him and slightly want him to open up more, but he will not. Sometimes I don't think you do want a relationship with him, I just think you want him to at least open up to you a bit more, but he won't. I think what you miss the most is having someone to talk too.

[Naomi99]

Exactly Journeynow. "no one gendered party is "always" anything".

 

Bitterness against men (or against women for that matter) just because of their gender is most unhelpful IMO.

 

I don't believe East4 is bitter about one gender, and neither am I, but I did recognize in the beginning of this thread that some of the posters mentioned to the effect of "he's like this because many women before you allowed him to coast freely" or "women have enabled his behavior."

 

If you have 20 people behaving the same way, and one person behaving in a way that negatively affects these 20 people in the exact same manner, why is it the fault of the 20 people? Wouldn't it stand to be the fault of the one person who is causing all this anguish because he is the one going against the grain? Yet we put the blame on the 20 women who "allowed" him to coast on by.

 

How about he's just a plain selfish bastard and these 20 women did nothing wrong?

[Naomi99]

How about setting a time frame? Tell him you need some space to reflect and not to contact you for a couple weeks.

This will give you the time detach a little and gain some objectivity.

 

Thank you…I am doing exactly this!

 

However, I don't need to tell him what I'm doing. He didn't tell me what he was doing the last six days of silence. He can continue to text me while I continue to post to this board all week.

[Naomi99]

BTW, if Latisse is an excuse to hang onto this guy, you know you can buy it online (at a good price) without a prescription right? link removed

 

you're funny. I just got an Rx filled by my primary, so I don't need him anymore. I'm free to break up at any time.

[Naomi99]

Heh. Naomi's situation is beginning to take on all the appearance of a game of poker. Bluff, double-bluff, call the bluff, and no aces in sight.

 

Is the doctor nervous with the hand of cards he's holding? Is Naomi not to certain of how to play her hand?

 

Maybe, as advised in "The Gambler" it is time to get up from the table and call it a day.

 

I have a royal flush, all hearts, and I'm about to fold.

He has suicide kings.

[Naomi99]

By the way, Naomi, why aren't you in bed sleeping? DO not tell me you are losing sleep over Doc's texts.

 

Not really. I'm losing sleep because I drank too much water the night before and le toilette is calling too often.

[Hermes]

Naomi:

 

Where did I say that "east" or you were bitter about one gender? I said bitterness against one or other gender is unhelpful. And it is.

I was commenting on what JourneyNow said.

 

Meantime this is what Ms. Darcy said:

 

"He asked you what you want. You hemmed and didn't give a straight answer (I have too think about it .... sometimes ...). That's hardly clarifying.

 

He has said in words AND actions what he wants.

 

You have implied but when he asked for clarification, you backed off. That's called mixed messaging."

 

So, again, what do YOU think Naomi.

[East4]

Totally agree.

You know the story of the smelly pigeon? The pigeon was complaining that after some time his nest would turn smelly and this is why the pigeon would abandon their mates and pair with others and form every time a new nest. After many mates and many nests, the pigeon discovered that the bad smell came from him ;-)

 

The same story here-the Doc stinks but somehow his "bad smell" is Naomi's fault.

[Naomi99]

Sometimes I don't think you do want a relationship with him, I just think you want him to at least open up to you a bit more, but he won't. I think what you miss the most is having someone to talk too.

 

This.

I don't like so much silence in between the dates with him.

It's a matter of being happy with what I have or going back out there and actively dating again, with two feet in, not with one foot in the doctor's bed.

[Hermes]

and there is a smell of self-righteousness off some posts, not to mention a poorly disguised anti-man lobby.

Is gender-bashing allowed on this forum? WE shall wait and see....

[Hermes]

So, Naomi, it looks like the "stinkin'" Dr. Who is still in the picture. Yes? In with a chance even?

 

You say:

 

"It's a matter of being happy with what I have or ..........."

[journeynow]

I don't think anyone needs to find fault or blame or use name calling at all. Naomi is the one here questioning the situation and trying to decide what she wants and what to do.

 

Dr. Wow is not on here asking for advice. It is not a double standard to offer advice to the person asking for it. And faulting him for his choices in relation to Naomi's actions isn't going to change him. The advice given here, and the observations made are for Naomi's benefit, since she is the one in the relationship considering something different.

 

Observing actions IS important. But so is communicating, which is a process.

[journeynow]

This is confusing. Maybe he's confused.

[tiredofvampires]

I actually agree with this. My sense of your not texting him back is that it really comes more down to a waiting game. Kind of cat-and-mouse. For both of you. I don't think, to be very candid, anyone on this thread, including YOU, really believes you won't finally text him back. It's just a matter of time. Seeing how long you can hold out, so you can at least say you were capable of some measure of self-restraint (and a valiant effort) -- and in the process, kind of hoping to give him a wake-up call, teach him a bit of a lesson. It's not about walking out of his life, because you're not ready to. He almost certainly knows this, and while he may be a little perturbed by the waiting period, he's betting on the persistence (and the desire he knows you have) eventually wearing you down. It's arbitrary how long you make that wait, so why not stop this endurance test?

 

That being the case (IMO), I don't think it's all that helpful to keep up this silent charade. I think using this time to think things over is good, but I also think you're creating a situation where he's almost "forbidden fruit" now -- and that's likely to backfire in the worst way. The silence is only fanning the flames of obsession. Think, incredible "heart grows fonder from absense" make-up sex, and my guess is that it WILL happen. Not speaking to him actually is building more tension for you to break your vow of silence, not more resolve. And maybe unconsciously that's appealing...because, well. The intensity of the make-up sex, like I said. The delectable nature of it can only be imagined. How many times have you envisioned it, being honest?

 

None of this ruminating is going to overpower the fact that in your heart, you're not ready to leave him. So the next best thing is to deflate a bit of the mystique you're building, contact him, and say that after your "relationship" discussion, you've had some thinking to do and need some space to consider where you're at. Non-committal, straightforward, and honest. No-nonsense.

 

But I'm going to go a step further, and suggest something a bit radical. At some point after that contact, I would be all for your sleeping with him again. Why? Because in my experience, I don't lose my appetite for a man thoroughly and completely, enough to make me want to walk away, until it's more than an intellectual test of willpower or reason. I actually have to get to the point where I feel disgusted, with a bit of anger. But mostly disgusted. You're already angry. You need disgust. You have to get to the point where after having sex, you're disgusted that it happened. Disgusted with him and his going on as ever, knowing how you feel, disgusted with yourself for squandering your feelings of love on him. Disgusted enough that all the erotic touch and sweet breath and neck kisses don't feel the same; they're tainted to the point of your heart finally getting a leg up on both your intellect and your primal instincts.

 

I don't mean to be crass and raw...I'm just saying it as I see it. No one ever walks away from something like this without having to first get to the point where the benefits don't FEEL like benefits anymore. They feel hollow, and like deprivation.

 

That may come for you the next time you sleep with him, or in a series of rendezvous. However it happens, I think that you need to take all this thinking you've been doing, and see how it plays out experientially with him. Chances are, the next time you sleep with him, it already won't feel the same. You're still in pre-relationship-discussion mode in your head, where it was don't-ask-don't-tell, and so the sex was free of the taint of this unequivocal harsh-light-of-day knowledge you now have. Now that you have it, and it's out in the open, it will likely change the dynamic sexually, and how the sex feels to you. You won't be in some hopeful/denial place anymore. You might be surprised to feel it's not doing for you what it did before, and you're on the way to breaking its spell over you. That is likely to happen in degrees. You'll get to this point where eventually, you aren't THINKING ABOUT diminishing returns. You're FEELING them every time he touches you.

 

I just think that building the allure of abstaining from something you still have "when it was at its best" fantasies about is a failing plan. What you need is a present-time dismantlement of the fantasy. Things are changing for you...but you have not caught up with the changes in that you haven't road-tested them.

 

Of course, some people (like the aforementioned male poster who returned to a femme fatale in a toxic relationship) never do learn, or step away. That's the trouble with "addiction", which I think is an appropriate description as you gave this. You either hit a certain low point, or you keep going back to your drug of choice. But most people who quit reach that low point where they have an epiphany, and it doesn't come from thinking their way to it. People only stop when they're ready, ready in the gut, so disgusted and horrified that the high isn't worth it -- and they have truly had enough.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but if we're talking about double-standards...

 

You can barely imagine giving this wonderful sex up even with all these reservations. Even not wanting to continue with him, you feel you lack the "strength" to give him up. So why would you expect that he, having nothing to lose and everything to gain continuing this, would be able to give you up?

 

Sacrifice like that is reserved for saints, heroes, and people who love someone. And he is none of those.

[Hermes]

Too right, Journey.

 

Problem is that on these forums (or more accurately on a thread like this one) the topic is used as a vehicle for certain people to air (usually covertly) their own

grievances or perceived grievances.

Naomi would surely want advice from totally impartial sources.

 

I've been around a long time, seen and heard a lot, and....I have learned to read between the lines. Enough said.

 

So, getting back to you, Naomi, what's the plan.