8 months and still casual…leave or stay?

[Helpexpressme]

Every break-up requires an ending tho! A finality.

[Naomi99]

Another superb post, East4. I am leaning toward this approach.

 

Now that I know this is a relationship with very little meaning and he is unlikely to change to role of serious BF, then I won't be doing anymore GF-type things. No more food, no more favorite desserts, no more special things in the bedroom, and now he's going to wear protection. (If I decide to keep seeing him)

 

I thought about mentioning dating other men, but I decided against that. It would kill me if he did that to me, so I don't see the benefit of doing that to him other than to play games or hurt his feelings. I am all about subtlety though…I think saying "No, not tonight" leaves a lot to the imagination without doing direct damage to someone's spirit. And "No, not tonight" is truthful and not a made-up story….

[Naomi99]

Every break-up requires an ending tho! A finality.

 

I don't want to end it and then regret it and go back.

If I end it, it will be final. Not sure I'm there yet.

[Naomi99]

And your point is?

 

My point is that you didn't tell him "no, this isn't good enough for me" so he's going to keep calling you to see if you're going to go ahead in the same dynamic you did before HE talked to you and told you where he was at. Main point was that you can't get indignant that he is calling and asking to hook up when that is what you've always done and you've yet to say you won't be doing it again.

 

When you have unvoiced expectations and those things you expect don't come your way, you're going to cause YOURSELF to feel some how slighted by him when in reality ... you've just disappointed yourself. He's just done what he's always done which you've always allowed him to do. Nothing has changed in his view because you've yet to change anything.

 

Make sense?

 

Yes. Makes sense.

He doesn't have my best interest as a priority; only his. Therefore he's going to keep doing what benefits him until I say what it is I want.

[Ms Darcy]

Yeah, so long as you don't tell him upfront you are done, or stop responding, he is going to go ahead as though all systems are a go.

 

I agree. You are in the land of mixed messages because you aren't ready to be done. Being done would mean being upfront and clear.

[ThatwasThen]

Yes. Makes sense.

He doesn't have my best interest as a priority; only his. Therefore he's going to keep doing what benefits him until I say what it is I want.

 

You, like him, should always have had your best interests as a priority, especially in the beginning of a relationship that appears to be as high as it's going to rise. From this day forward, better have YOUR best interests as a priority or you will find yourself shredded if you continue on with him for any serious length of time.

 

I'm sure you too will be doing what benefits you as well, No? If not, you should be.

[Naomi99]

I agree. You are in the land of mixed messages because you aren't ready to be done. Being done would mean being upfront and clear.

 

You know, something like this happened way back in Feb. I broke up, told him this was unsustainable and not in alignment with what I want. He kept contacting me and pushing to see each other as if nothing ever happened. I thought he missed me…he probably did, but bottom line is I don't think anything I said registered with him. And like a silly sheep, I caved and fell deeper, thinking it might have developed from casual to something more meaningful (like Bolt's story.)

[Ms Darcy]

You know, something like this happened way back in Feb. I broke up, told him this was unsustainable and not in alignment with what I want. He kept contacting me and pushing to see each other as if nothing ever happened. I thought he missed me…he probably did, but bottom line is I don't think anything I said registered with him. And like a silly sheep, I caved and fell deeper, thinking it might have developed from casual to something more meaningful (like Bolt's story.)

 

Oh, that changes things for me a bit. If you have sort of tried to cut this off before and he started reaching out more, then you two have a push/pull dynamic.

 

As ThatwasThen says, you need to have your own best interest at heart.

[ThatwasThen]

You know, something like this happened way back in Feb. I broke up, told him this was unsustainable and not in alignment with what I want. He kept contacting me and pushing to see each other as if nothing ever happened. I thought he missed me…he probably did, but bottom line is I don't think anything I said registered with him. And like a silly sheep, I caved and fell deeper, thinking it might have developed from casual to something more meaningful (like Bolt's story.)

 

Well, surely you've learned something that you'd trust yourself not to do this again:

I don't want to end it and then regret it and go back.

you've learned something for the future in that: You don't go back to someone unless he tells you outright that he is wanting to commit further and to do things that will make it "sustainable" like introduce you to his friends and include you in on his little get together, go on holiday with you. If in a short period of time his actions don't show you that he has changed from why you left him, then you leave him again quickly and you stay gone by going zero contact.

[boltnrun]

I'm sure his idea of "helping" you relax is you giving him sex.

 

My guess is it's cold and he wants somewhere warm to put it. Preferably in you, because you're healthy and (up to now) totally accommodating to his wants without asking for anything for yourself.

 

I've seen this dynamic before, where there's a "talk" and one of the persons just goes on as though the "talk" never happened, assuming the other person will just give in (as they always have before) and allow things to go on as usual. You did this before (gave in), so he sees no reason why you wouldn't give in this time.

 

My ex did this...I ended things with him and he called me TWO DAYS later, asking for us to go somewhere and take my children along too. I thought, did he forget I broke up with him?? Unfortunately I mentioned the call to my daughter, who really liked him, and she excitedly asked if we could please go (it was a 4th of July fireworks show). So, reluctantly, I did go and took the kids, but since the kids were along there could be no sex and no staying over. I still sometimes wonder what the point of that was, unless it was to keep me attached so the sex would continue. I will say it didn't work because I held firm.

 

So, yes, the doctor is thinking about himself and not about what would be best for you. He says he wants you to date others but he also said he wants to "hang out as friends"...which means he doesn't want to lose his source of sex. Selfish, selfish. I don't care if he's honest, just because a person is honest about being selfish doesn't make it OK to be selfish.

[reinventmyself]

I don't want to end it and then regret it and go back.

If I end it, it will be final. Not sure I'm there yet.

 

So then there is no mystery as to why he is contacting you. You have told him what you want but you haven't told him exactly what you don't want. It has been debated whether or not your last conversation with him was final and clear, or not.

 

I am not surprised at all that he's contacting you. You have been a willing participant up til now. You yourself waffle about whether or not to continue and my guess is he knows this.

 

It's natural that he might reach out and take your temperature to see where you are at.

 

Next move is yours. .

[reinventmyself]

He has the emotional intelligence of a pumpkin, and that's degrading to the pumpkin.

 

So Naomi, which exactly is it?? .

You swing from one extreme to another and in the next moment you can't resist him and he's fabulous?

My guess is you've reached a point that you know he's not the one for you. You admit that if you had him you wouldn't even want him.

 

So what's all the angst really about?

IMO, I think you "want him to want you". .As if this will define your worth.

 

There is a better way to gain self worth. . I hope you know that.

And it's not thru a one sided relationship that isn't going anywhere.

Actually . . it's the very thing that will undermine it.

[Hermes]

Ms. Darcy said this some days back and I concur:

 

"I do think there is some effort to make him the bad guy (calling him a reptile, saying he was using you) when no needs were spoken until recently.

 

Without boundaries you are bound by thoughts.

 

Seriously, the biggest advice I give is to speak you truth at the beginning and walk away if you are not honored. Without boundaries and honesty, you couldn't claim unfair treatment.

 

Let's not assume that every man and woman should want a relationship. Once we remember that, speaking truth early is easier.

 

And if Naomi had been honest early on, she would have walked away within the first month because he was like that from the beginning."

[East4]

=boltnrun;63245

 

I don't care if he's honest, just because a person is honest about being selfish doesn't make it OK to be selfish.

 

Beautifully said!

[ThatwasThen]

just because a person is honest about being selfish doesn't make it OK to be selfish.

When you have good personal boundaries you don't accommodate someone's selfishness, you have enough confidence and love of self to stop it if it isn't what you also want.

 

I will reinforce this: Don't make Naomi into a victim because doing that doesn't help her in the least to start looking out for her own best interests. No lesson(s) will be learned for future dating by Naomi or anyone single reading this is if we were all of the thought process that we were a victim for something that was not forced upon us.

[ThatwasThen]

Beautifully said!

For reason stated above: Sorry, but I disagree on that one. It doesn't make it okay to be selfish but he wouldn't be able to BE selfish if people (Naomi included) didn't enable him to be selfish to them.

[Hermes]

Hear, hear, ThatwasThen.

 

"No lesson(s) will be learned if by any of is if we were all just to be a victim for something that was not forced upon us."

 

Exactly, no one forced Naomi to first meet the doctor, nor to continue with him. He certainly did not.

 

Naomi, you would do well not to pay too much heed to certain "word-salads" on here but read (if you wish) the more balanced posts.

Otherwise we go down the road of "bachelor-bashers of the world unite"!!

[wilyone 11]

Did he forget all about our "talk"???? Jesus Christ! Either he doesn't give a crap about my feelings or he forgot or he is very selfish and just wants what he wants when he can get it.

 

I've dated this type. They tend to sweep everything under the rug and pretend it never happened. They don't have the slightest clue how to deal with relationship conflicts.

 

Please do not try to make him jealous. It will be obvious that you are doing so intentionally in the hopes of inspiring him. It won't work with this guy but will just make you look a bit childish (I've tried this tactic too.) He's already suggested that you go find a serious boyfriend and then come back and have him as a side dish.

 

If you're not ready to let go, then I agree you stop all "girlfriend-like" behavior, pull way back, and be a lot less available both physically and emotionally.

 

Good luck Naomi, we're all rooting for you to realize your worth.

[Hermes]

Wilyone. Yes, I agree with this:

 

"Good luck Naomi, we're all rooting for you to realize your worth."

[boltnrun]

I searched my posts and was not able to find the words "Naomi was a victim" anywhere.

 

I never said she was victimized. I merely stated that being honest about one's selfishness does not make selfishness OK. And that was directed at the doctor, not as a way to indicate she herself is a victim of his selfishness. I mere!y pointed out that he is not thinking about her best interests when he suggests "helping" her to relax...in case she mistook his statement as him being concerned about her well-being.

 

I'm also well aware she has chosen to continue seeing this man of her own free will, just as I did in my past relationship. I do not blame my ex for me going back to him when he'd made it clear he didn't love me. I chose to believe what I wanted to believe. And that's on me. And if she chooses to continue to see or sleep with him knowing he does not love her, that is her choice.

 

I just don't think being "honest" about one's selfishness or lack of concern for others gives one a free pass that makes those behaviors OK.

[Hermes]

Bolt:

 

I think (but would have to trawl back to Naomi's post in which she informed us of the outcome of her talk with Dr. Who), that Dr. Who was not honest about "selfishness" but was honest in saying that he was not up for commitment. An entirely different matter.

 

I suppose what I am trying to say (unsuccessfully it would seem is that being a confirmed bachelor (a life choice after all) does not imply the person is bad or "selfish". Likewise, being a bachelor for life does not mean one automatically becomes a monk who can never date, sleep with or even talk to a woman! Or is the thinking (maybe based in envy?) that the bachelor should never, by virtue of his chosen bachelrhood NEVER touch a woman?!

 

Certainly (so weary of saying this) in the case of Dr. Who, his courtesy, or manners, in certain areas, could do with some improvement. No one could deny that.

 

We also know so little of this man, beyond that he is a doctor, the mention of one or two hobbies, his house, but absolutely nothing of his background. I don't know if Naomi has been given any insights herself into his FOO or background.

[boltnrun]

I also never said he's selfish because he's a bachelor.

 

He's selfish IMO due to his statement that he wants to keep seeing her "as friends" when he knows darn well she has more than friendly feelings toward him. It seems he wants to keep the sex coming because he likes it, regardless of how it would affect her.

 

I taught my son that he will encounter women who will allow him to use them for sex because of low self esteem or whatever, but that it would be wrong of him to take advantage of these women. That it is wrong to use people even if they allow him to. And to be mindful of the feelings of others.

 

I know plenty of lifelong bachelors (mentioned previously my good friend) and I do not "bash" him and I am not envious of him, AND I do not believe he is selfish. He's an attractive man who enjoys a variety of women. However, he will stop seeing a woman if she reveals she is developing feelings and wants a future with him if he does not feel the same. He will not continue to sleep with a woman just because she'd let him when he knows she wants more from him.

 

I am well aware Naomi has free will and is entitled to exercise it. And she is not and would not be a victim if she chooses to continue.

[Hermes]

Got it Bolt.

 

" However, he will stop seeing a woman if she reveals she is developing feelings and wants a future with him if he does not feel the same"

 

But, isn't there always a but....

 

Naomi did not state to him that she wanted a future with him, and kept seeing him on the same terms as at the outset. Much more recently she did have the conversation with him.

 

I also mentioned a friend in past posts, who is a lifelong bachelor, around Dr. Who's age, and in similar circumstances. Neither does he encourage women who think of hanging on in the hope of "more". He lets them know exactly the situation early on. But as he has often remarked to me himself: "They don't want to hear that, they don't want to know." Sigh.....

 

As regards the sex, well, I suppose that is something they must decide between them.

 

Btw, I never said YOU were bashing Bolt. I always find your posts are very balanced.

[Hermes]

Perhaps this kind of thinking still lingers?

 

"Throughout history the bachelor was regarded as a destabilizing influence on society, a “threat against the established social order,” (Phillip Lopate's phrase), a rogue elephant, a misfit and pariah. The presumption of guilt attached to every single man beyond the age of thirty,” noted George Ade, the author of "The Joys of Single Blessedness." In puritan New England, according to Howard P. Chudacoff’s The Age of the Bachelor, those who indulged in the "selfish luxury of solitary living" were forced under penalty of law to live in "well-ordered households" as boarders and made to pay the despised bachelor tax.

""Is it generally known that bachelors privately receive encouragement and approbation from married men?" asks Ade. Much, however, remains unsaid. The bachelor's married friends seldom speak of their troubles, though their eyes betray a deep-rooted sorrow and a tragic lonesomeness, not least due to an unfilled desire for male companionship. “If you are afraid of loneliness,” warned Chekhov, “don't marry.""

 

And:

"Who can argue that a brief catalog of famous bachelors reads like a roll call of the architects of Western Civilization?

 

Geeze just look at that list.

 

link removed

[Naomi99]

No, I am not a victim, but I don't think the doctor is squeaky clean either.

 

Our current status is a result of two things:

 

1. I never asked about our relationship because I knew he wouldn't commit.

2. He never was upfront about being casual because he knew he'd risk losing the me…or the sex.

 

That's why we both stayed silent this entire 8 months.

 

Also:

 

1. I'm an over-giver.

2. He's a self-centered taker.

 

Put all that together and you get a 76-page thread on ENA.