8 months and still casual…leave or stay?

[Naomi99]

I haven't been here and days and quite frankly I'm surprised the moderator has not labeled this as running it course...

 

This thread isn't finished until I'm finished with him.

[East4]

Perfect. I would only leave the "apologise" part out, because you have nothing to apologise for. The person who has to apologise is him, because he wasted 8 months of your precious fertility window.

 

People here are giving Doc credit that he was honest about his intentions, "straight" when you asked him. It is not so straight, because he waited 8 months to tell you this and only after you took the initiative, in the mean time enjoying you on his terms. And if you continued to play the role of the cool girl and said nothing, he would never have discussed the status of your relationship with you. It was very convenient for him to avoid talking about the elephant in the room. This was not Doc's first rodeo, he knew what he was doing all along (wasting your time), but wouldn't bring the subject, because then he would risk to lose the goodies. And also perhaps he counted on the fact that the more you sleep with him, the more entangled you would become, and even if one day he would have to squarely tell you the truth about his intentions, you would be too attached and weak to leave him anyways. So, he benefits twofold: be the good, honest guy and sleep with clear conscious, and secondly, keep the goodies. Please, Naomi, do not give him this satisfaction.

 

If he cared about your interest and really were a decent man, he would have clarified his intentions earlier, and certainly when he noticed that you were becoming attached to him, by doing all nice gestures and favors-bake him cakes, bring food and cook for him. His inconsistent, sporadic communication was also part of his toolbox to keep you at arms length.

 

So, to those who say that he didn't lead you on, I'm not convinced in this. He was leading you on by omission, by not telling you on his own initiative about where he stood.

 

I had a similar situation, where I was the Doc. The guy was very sweet, and did nice things for me. We never discussed exclusivity, or relationship, but it was obvious that he wants something with me and i wasn't interested. I felt bad to lead him to believe that we can have a relationship in the future. I haven't waited for him to breach the subject, I just sat him down one day after yet another bunch of flower he brought me, and straight on told him that I enjoy his company, but I have no intention to be in relationship with him. I didn't wait for him to bring the subject 8 months down the line.

[Hermes]

Naomi. At least you have a sense of humour. A great weapon in anyone's armoury, for any circumstances.

 

I'll repeat this again : you liked being with Dr. Who, he did not kidnap you, you knew he was the bachelor (56) and likely to remain so, and when asked by you (many posts ago you relayed verbatim what he said) he told you his position straight out.

 

It is of no consequence here whether he had 20 or 200 "lovers" before you, or whether he has 20 or 200 lovers after you abandon this liaison.

Repeating for 100th time: because he is a bachelor does not mean he is also a monk. Provided he does not at the outset lead someone on to believe he can offer a long-term commitment (Naomi herself has said she is not interested in marriage) , then it, as always, takes two to tango.

 

Could some of his manners do with improvement. That's another matter. Certainly. Not good to let her trudge uphill with groceries, and all the other courtesy failings mentioned.

 

But the basic fact of the matter is that this man is a happy loner, has made that clear, no one is being forced at gun-point.

[abitbroken]

Naomi,

I don't know if I already said this and didn't press send, or i did..but..

 

you mentioned that you don't want kids or marriage. If you are around 40, you probably can find a guy who already has kids and doesn't want more (and his kids aren't small children - they are grown or teens or otherwise don't inspire him to find someone to mother them), he never had kids and is at the age where he decides that having a baby would just be too much or selfish at his age, etc. You can find guys who would totally commit to a woman - and doesn't want kids.

 

However, when you are in the realm of not wanting to marry again and want to meet a guy who doesn't want to marry - unless you are looking for a young man who is 18-22 who is so far from thinking about marriage, or unless you are looking for a man 85+ who doesn't want to marry in order to not reduce his social security benefits or just doesn't want to deal with greedy children who are suspicious of him marrying a younger woman, etc, you are going to attract men who just want something casual until they find "the one", or are unable or unwilling to commit (emotionally they are a mess or like the doc, just don't want to). In other words, you will most likely attract someone who wants their options open - either as an emotional need or because of a choice. Sure, some of these men might introduce you to friends, etc, but there will be a limited on how committed they will allow themselves to get before freaking out or setting a boundary. They are not going to be "committed to you in all but a paper and ring".

 

So what does the commit you want look to you? At 25, having an arrangement where you live separately but sleep over a lot, meet eachother's families, but absolutely want personal space and no marriage is easier to get. But when you are looking at men who are 40s and 50s, guys who are able and willing to commit to a woman are often looking for a wife. Or will give you the sleepovers and a greater level of "couple ness" but it may not have everything you want, either -

 

So if you are truly not open to the idea of eventual marriage IF you meet the right guy who has enough of his own interests where he is not on top of you constantly, then that is fine, but like I say, the pool of guys that are going to stick with you more than 6 months or a year to see where things go are going to dwindle (unless you meet the guy who really likes you and wants to try and change your mind).

 

SO you are in that space of wanting more, but not ALL of it, so you are going to attract men who are going to put a limit on what they are going to give - either sleep with you and act totally couple-y, but tell you its not serious and hope you know that, or you are going to get guys who keep their distance a little more than you like in case they find someone who does want to commit. Or be like the doc, and just only give the level they are willing to commit to (which is not much).

 

 

I haven't been here and days and quite frankly I'm surprised the moderator has not labeled this as running it course...

 

Why should they? We are not veering off topic.

[Helpexpressme]

 

I'm guessing he'll text me, as always, "Want to meet up tomorrow?" or something like that…

 

And my response will be something along the lines of, "I can't see you anymore. It's been fun getting to know you and I've enjoyed the time we've spent together, but I'm not cut out for this type of relationship, and I apologize if I've led you to believe otherwise."

 

I'm hoping if it gets to this point, you will do it face to face. Then he will know your serious. Doing it over text will just make him roll his eyes and go "yeah whatever" and just text you later on down the road.

[Ms Darcy]

I love us women, but I pointed out my husband's comments to highlight the difference. We women dissect and dissect and dissect. Dissect his motivations, her motivations, our motivations. I think men can be a lot more to the point. And certainly my husband, my dad, my male friends aren't continuously replaying this stuff in their heads.

 

I'm not trying to discourage you from having a journal. I think that would be great for you. I just think my husband's response is a good reality check.

[abitbroken]

by the way, just as an addendum, I don't think its "wrong" for you to not want marriage if that is your sincere belief, but you have to then be clear to a man about what commitment level you want and what that looks like for you. Honestly, if you had this awesome relationship where you were not looking to get married, but the perfect man for you proposed, would you turn him down? (as in, you are not LOOKING to get married, but wood you?) Does the commitment level you want involve living together? Does it mean exclusively dating, but with a man who is very content to have his own house and his own space, etc, but emotionally close? None are "wrong" - but you have to decide within yourself WHAT exactly you are ultimately looking for. I am not sure whether you want to be like Hugh Grant in 4 weddings and a funeral who proposes to Andie MacDowall: "Will you NOT be married to be for the rest of your life?" or in your heart you really want more of a commitment, but you "ward off" men who are emotionally able to because you have some unresolved stuff.

[Naomi99]

I'm hoping if it gets to this point, you will do it face to face. Then he will know your serious. Doing it over text will just make him roll his eyes and go "yeah whatever" and just text you later on down the road.

 

If I did this in person, it will be worse. He will start kissing my neck and I will smell his marvelous breath. The moment I smell him, I'll surrender.

[Naomi99]

Honestly, if you had this awesome relationship where you were not looking to get married, but the perfect man for you proposed, would you turn him down? (as in, you are not LOOKING to get married, but wood you?)

 

 

Yes, I wood.

 

Does the commitment level you want involve living together? Does it mean exclusively dating, but with a man who is very content to have his own house and his own space, etc, but emotionally close? None are "wrong" - but you have to decide within yourself WHAT exactly you are ultimately looking for. I am not sure whether you want to be like Hugh Grant in 4 weddings and a funeral who proposes to Andie MacDowall: "Will you NOT be married to be for the rest of your life?" or in your heart you really want more of a commitment, but you "ward off" men who are emotionally able to because you have some unresolved stuff.

 

I've had the long-term relationship with a great guy…house, pool, gourmet kitchen, everything. There were many aspects I loved about it, but the breakup nearly killed me. I don't know if I could make myself vulnernable to that type of pain again. And with these unavailable guys, it just feels safer because I am not risking anything with this wall they build.

 

On the other hand, I'd love to be able to at least STAY THE NIGHT and make breakfast the next morning….geez. The doctor doesn't know what he's missing out on.

[Naomi99]

I read your post five times and this is what I've been feeling all along but couldn't express it; either because I didn't want to believe it or I keep looking through a rose-colored glass.

 

I don't believe he is as good a person he portrays to be. I think he is selfish and has conditioned himself to think this way through all of his years. He's never lived with anyone and hasn't learned to compromise or think about his partner's interest. It's always been and only been about him.

 

IF and ONLY IF he considers his partner's best interest, it's because HE stands to benefit from it as well.

 

And me, being an over-giver, and him being a selfish person who loves to be catered to...well, there you have it. A dysfunctional relationship.

[Naomi99]

I love us women, but I pointed out my husband's comments to highlight the difference. We women dissect and dissect and dissect. Dissect his motivations, her motivations, our motivations. I think men can be a lot more to the point. And certainly my husband, my dad, my male friends aren't continuously replaying this stuff in their heads.

 

I'm not trying to discourage you from having a journal. I think that would be great for you. I just think my husband's response is a good reality check.

 

It's because in dating, women either like the guy or want nothing to do with the guy. There's no ambiguity. Men will be half-assed about it, have sex with someone they don't like, and we women cannot relate because we can't imagine having sex with someone we don't like, so we have to guess at their intentions; therefore the dissection, the dissection, the dissection!! Men make us this way!

 

Women are awesome!!!

[Hermes]

Right Naomi. At least you do know what you DON'T want. Of course there are men out there who would enter a long-term commitment with you, as in no need to get married. Why wouldn't they? Marriage and children is not the be all and end all of life.

 

Maybe, Naomi, you and Dr. Who are more suited than you think. Tee hee.

 

When you say "unavailable" what do you mean? Dr. Who is very available, but not available for marriage and children. So maybe he is the goods.

 

Men are awesome too. I just love 'em! I get on very well with men.

[Naomi99]

Of course there are men out there who would enter a long-term commitment with you, as in no need to get married. Why wouldn't they? Marriage and children is not the be all and end all of life.

 

Maybe, Naomi, you and Dr. Who are more suited than you think. Tee hee. Dr. Who is very available, but not available for marriage and children. So maybe he is the goods.

 

Doctor? Is that you hiding behind the screen name "Hermes"?? Doctor, quit trying to reel me in!!

[Hermes]

Heh heh. Naomi. Not unless the doctor is a 5' 5" 126 lbs fair-haired Irish woman. Is he? Hope not.

[Ms Darcy]

I've had the long-term relationship with a great guy…house, pool, gourmet kitchen, everything. There were many aspects I loved about it, but the breakup nearly killed me. I don't know if I could make myself vulnernable to that type of pain again. And with these unavailable guys, it just feels safer because I am not risking anything with this wall they build.

 

I don't see how unavailable is safer. Because you eventually flip the script (see this situation) and want more.

 

I agree that the breakup of a long-term relationship would be heartbreaking. I think that's actually why I wanted marriage. Because finding a man who is emotionally open and wants to marry is a great way to weed non-serious men out.

 

So, in some ways I think a lot of women get the opposite of what they want by not going for ALL of what they (say they) want.

[boltnrun]

Doctor? Is that you hiding behind the screen name "Hermes"?? Doctor, quit trying to reel me in!!

 

Well, obviously the doctor is NOT offering what you want/need, or this entire discussion would never have taken place.

 

You'd like to stay over. He doesn't want you to.

 

You'd like him to extend basic courtesies (allowing you room to park). He does not do so and it doesn't even occur to him to do so.

 

You'd like to be more included in his day to day life and his family/friends (this one is a question because I'm not clear if you actually would like this). He does not include you and will not include you.

 

Perhaps you'd like him to drive to you sometimes? He does not appear willing to do so.

 

I was perfectly happy with my relationship with my ex (the one I've mentioned a few times) with the exception of him never driving to me (which should have been a huge red flag but I didn't pay attention because I didn't want to. Interestingly, he mentioned this during our "talk" as proof he didn't have feelings for me, because he said if he had, he would have driven as far as he had to in order to see me). Except for the part where I discovered he didn't love me and never would. THAT was a key element and one that made me end the relationship.

 

So, you are in love with the doctor and he is not in love with you.

 

THAT alone makes him not the man for you, IMO.

[abitbroken]

So Naomi, you would really want to be married if you met Mr. Right.

 

When i was in my early 20s, I did NOT want to get married. I felt like I was still a kid in many ways. I was mature as far as paying my bills, being responsible but emotionally and sexually and spiritually - marriage was the farthest thing from my brain, even though my friend, 2 cousins, were getting married and were about my age. I didn't even start dating until then. Anyways, instead of meeting young men my own age and seeing where it went, a man who was a little older came into my life and he didn't want to get married either. Perfect. I was under no pressure. But the thing is, he didn't want to get married ever. he thought marriage was a sham (never married though), he really wasn't marriage material and his family was a mess. Anyway, the problems happened more and more as a matured and got older and actually would have liked to marry - but wasn't excited about the idea about being married to him and not like he was offering. When he did offer - I was too surprised to say no - and basically felt that i had put the "time in" and this was really all there was, even though my family kept encouraging me that I could do better. It was an abusive relationship, to boot.

 

So if you really would get married if you met the right guy - go for guys that want a commitment or at least open minded - but when the minute you discover that particular one is not the one for you or is moving too fast - let him go so he can find Ms. Right for him and you can find Mr. Right for you. Don't commit to any of those guys that are not good for you, for sure, but don't expect commitment from someone who is completely wrong for you and try to get blood out of a stone.

 

I was VERY VERY hurt by my abusive ex, but had i decided that i never worked through my fears and hangups and loss and hurt, I would have never met my current boyfriend. I would have not dated anyone ever or would have ended up with someone who i settled for or didn't treat me right

 

So - if you want a non committal guy where things are on the surface - wonderful. but if you really are hoping deep down that you will meet that Mr. Right - don't blame the guys for choosing someone who won't commit and then try to change their mind.

[Naomi99]

So Naomi, you would really want to be married if you met Mr. Right.

 

No, I don't REALLY want to be married if I met Mr. Right.

 

I am open to the idea and would do it, but marriage is NOT necessary nor is it a priority. It is an afterthought.

 

However, I am adverse to the idea of kids.

[Hermes]

Just to remark that quite a few women meet someone they THINK (or want to think) is Mr. Right, and get married, only to discover that he turns out to be Mr. Wrong!

Many men can present themselves as Mr. Right, and are anything but. They'll even get married. They are apparently normal, apparently nice and kindly, seemingly ready to commit, they can talk the talk. And then months later (all we need to do is look at posts on this or other boards) and there's this abusive, corrosive situation.

 

At least Dr. Who didn't go down that road. He stated his position straight up.

[journeynow]

I've had the long-term relationship with a great guy…house, pool, gourmet kitchen, everything.

 

Naomi, you mention a relationship with a "great guy" but then list objects that aren't really about the relationship. Dr. Who is accomplished in his career, and I gather materially successful, but what is it you want in a relationship? I hope you are not focused on the trimmings rather than the substance of a relationship, the nurturing, supportive, and rewarding qualities. What is it you think you'd like in a mutually satisfying and loving relationship?

[Hermes]

Naomi, I note that you did say, did say, several times that you are not interested in getting married, having a family.

 

Now, moving along to the kind of man you might meet (as another poster remarked) in the 40s to 50s age group.

You will get the following: divorcés, widowers and ...some confirmed bachelors.

 

The divorcés and widowers are very likely to have children, probably in the adolescent or early adulthood age range. I get the impression you would not want that. No?

 

Which brings us neatly back to the confirmed bachelors (as in, single men) , the happy loners...who are not monks or otherwise celibate. Maybe there are some out there who are different from Dr. Who in ways and temperament, who, like yourself, do not wish to marry, but might entertain the idea of a sort of "ongoing arrangement".

 

Is that where you are at? What you would ideally wish for?

[Naomi99]

Naomi, you mention a relationship with a "great guy" but then list objects that aren't really about the relationship…I hope you are not focused on the trimmings rather than the substance of a relationship, the nurturing, supportive, and rewarding qualities.

 

My answer was in direct response to do I want to move in with a guy or will I be happy with someone who has his own life, his own house…something like that. And in my response, I said I had all of that; the guy, the house…the whole setup. And I wasn't happy.

 

Her question was not about qualities of a relationship.

[abitbroken]

No, I don't REALLY want to be married if I met Mr. Right.

 

I am open to the idea and would do it, but marriage is NOT necessary nor is it a priority. It is an afterthought.

 

However, I am adverse to the idea of kids.

 

Really= I meant the ACTUALLY definition of "really"

[journeynow]

My answer was in direct response to do I want to move in with a guy or will I be happy with someone who has his own life, his own house…something like that. And in my response, I said I had all of that; the guy, the house…the whole setup. And I wasn't happy.

 

Her question was not about qualities of a relationship.

 

Ah, I misinterpreted as a response to " decide within yourself WHAT exactly you are ultimately looking for" , thinking "what" in a bigger sense. Sorry!

[Naomi99]

What I would like is a relationship where things unfold naturally and there's a courteous reciprocation.

 

You text me. I accept.

You take me out. I cook you an amazing dinner.

You ask me to spend the night. I make breakfast.

You setup my DVR. I re-arrange your spice drawer.

You invite me to happy hour with your friends. I invite you to Pictionary with my friends.

We're both stressed out. We plan a trip.

 

That's all!! It's simple and pleasant. No wedding. No babies. I don't even want to meet your family. Mine is hard enough to deal with.