8 months and still casual…leave or stay?

[Hermes]

Good post, Abit (kind "established forum member" LOL).

Very coherent.

[abitbroken]

A man who has formed even the slightest attachment to a woman, would not recommend her to go find another boyfriend. I do not think that the doctor sees Naomi as a lover, at least not in the classic sense of the word where the word "lover" is charged with connotations to passion and strong feelings in general. I do not see such thing from the doctor.

 

I don't think he said "go away and find someone else." He approached her with logic. If she wants A instead of B, then it is only logical that she go find B instead of sticking with A. They are sexually exclusive. If she has sex with someone else, than logically he would stop sleeping with her, but still offered to see her as friends in that case. He rather likes her - he just can't dish out what she is hoping to get.

 

I see the term "lover" as someone who is not a husband or wife, not an official boyfriend or girlfriend but one who someone has sex or romance with. It doesn't mean that one has to have emotionally passionate feelings.

 

Good post, Abit (kind "established forum member" LOL).

Very coherent.

 

Thanks!

[Hermes]

Yes, Abit.

 

"He rather likes her - he just can't dish out what she is hoping to get." And he also made that clear in words, and Naomi in an earlier post told us what he said.

 

Could Naomi be friends with Dr. Who, socially, if she were eventually in a relationship with another man. Probably, if that is what she feels like. On the other hand, and on a slightly different aspect, I know Naomi did say she wasn't particularly interested in his friends, as in her view, they seemed rather stolid etc. So, if the doctor knows this then why would he bother introducing her to them. Also, and in the very very unlikely event that she and doctor were to be married, she would have to socially meet, receive and be friends with his rather "stuffy" (her word) friends.

That is another aspect to ponder.

[Helpexpressme]

My biggest fear for you, is that if the Doc finds out your dating other people (even tho is was his idea), he will bow out himself and find another. Now I don't know if you were ever cool with the Doc dating others, I think that's a no.

 

For him to get any POAS he has to talk to the person. That's the downside I guess. So for him to find another would involve him "talking". But with you he already is "there" so he just enjoys his POAS. If Your lady parts were detachable, I think he'd just take that part home and keep it in a draw. That's how cold he comes accross Naomi.

[Naomi99]

To me this post reads like a serious exercise in feelings dissection, which, if done with a rational reasoning leads to killing body reactions to events, that feelings are in fact. Most probably the Dr. has started on the same train of thought some 25 years ago, and look what he has become today - a person perfectly happy to compartmentalize other people in little boxes, use people like objects to satisfy certain needs and then put them back in the box and simply forget about them. Naomi, if you continue to rationalize and suppress what your gut is telling you, one day you will end up the same like your doctor-cold, aloof loner, who thinks that as long as they are honest about their consumer's intention, they are absolved of all responsibility to treat humans in a human way.

 

This is one of the best posts in this entire 500-plus thread.

 

I have a lot of trouble trusting my gut. I believe it has to do with lack of validation from my parents as a child. Growing up, they wanted me to follow a certain path but I broke free and haven't had their support for over 25 years now. And now in my adult years, I question every decision I make and give myself a ton of time, asking for opinions, thiking every little detail and consequence over. And if I can hang onto logic and reason, then that is a pretty solid basis that I can trust in making decisions and hopefully won't regret it.

 

What I need to learn is to trust my gut and be okay with my choices, even if it may not be the best one.

 

It seems to me that you are trying to suppress your gut feeling, by applying pure logic. But be aware that the raw gut feeling (emotions) are the primary voice of your body, your primitive brain that was formed million years ago. The logic and the dry reasoning capacity of the brain is developed only in the last thousand years and if you choose to listen to it only, and ignore the rest, then you choose to ignore a large part of yourself, your raw subconscious mind, that is at your core (and the core of humans in general).

 

You make me sound like Dr. Spock!

 

I'm not saying that you have to act on each emotion that you are feeling, but suppress and discard it, means ignoring important signs that come from the core of your being. When the gut speaks up, or feelings of anger, dissatisfaction, anxiety appear, these are warning signs that your core being is unhappy. Although, you present it as jokes, I can feel in your previous posts your resentment towards the Dr. for the way he treated you. He's using you for what he wants from you, and the rest he throws away like useless, he doesn't see you in your totality as a human, he only sees your pretty face and nice body. And your core reacts against it, because at a basic, raw level it feels that you've been hurt and diminished to an object. It is your own body that rebels against the way you are allowing this man to treat you.

 

I understand that your feelings make you uncomfortable. But do not suppress them. They are there to tell you an important message.

 

It really hurt me to read this, but I think you are right.

[East4]

Naomi, apologies if my posts come accross as harsh and insensitive, I wish my English was better, so I could use milder, more nuanced language. I do empathies with your situation and I think many women have found themselves in the grey area you are currently operating. Including myself. I also think you are quiet intelligent and do have the capacity to reflect on things.

 

Your experience with your parents is also something familiar, and I do know that when a child's feelings have been systematically invalidated by the parents' imposed opinion on how the child SHOULD feel, then it perpetuates the conviction within the child that her emotions are not important, not correct, not to be trusted. A child like that when already an adult will be accustomed to put others' needs and perceptions higher than their own.

 

I liked your expression "a woman of radical acceptance". Well, a good place to start with this is to radically accept yourself, do not let anybody define what is good and appropriate FOR YOU. Tune into your feelings about how a person, or a situations make you feel, and radically accept that you are going to do what feels best FOR YOU, not for Doc, or whoever else. If you let Doc decide what is good and appropriate, of course, he is going to steer things to what feels good FOR HIM, not for you. Do not count on him to cater for your well-being, he's too much obsessed with his own persona. It is your role to decide what you truly want, and feel absolutely free to get rid of anybody who is wasting your time and not contributing to your happiness (including the opinions of poster on this forum ;-)). Your happiness matters. And who cares if he thinks that you would be impolite/petty for ignoring his texts. If that makes you move on quicker with your life-do it, he has no say in what you chose to do. You own him nothing.

[Ms Darcy]

I agree with Hermes and Abit. I do think there is some effort to make him the bad guy (calling him a reptile, saying he was using you) when no needs were spoken until recently.

 

Without boundaries you are bound by thoughts.

 

Seriously, the biggest advice I give is to speak you truth at the beginning and walk away if you are not honored. Without boundaries and honesty, you couldn't claim unfair treatment.

 

Let's not assume that every man and woman should want a relationship. Once we remember that, speaking truth early is easier.

 

And if Naomi had been honest early on, she would have walked away within the first month because he was like that from the beginning.

[boltnrun]

If your sense of logic immobilizes you, your sense of logic is letting you down.

 

Your "gut" often tells you things your emotional self doesn't want to hear, and that your logical self tries to rationalize.

 

Look at the hundreds of posts you can find on ENA where the OP admits they saw "red flags" or some kind of warning signal and chose to ignore it because their emotional self wanted the relationship. And every time, their "gut" was right.

 

If you, Naomi, can continue to see the doctor without ever having any kind of wistful feelings, any kind of hurt to your self esteem, any wishes for more than he offers you...then I don't see any reason not to carry on. But if you're relying on your logical self to suppress your emotional self or your "gut"...you will be in for a bumpy ride. And in the long run, bumpy rides eventually cause some kind of damage.

[Naomi99]

This wins Post of the Year award.

 

A man who has formed even the slightest attachment to a woman, would not recommend her to go find another boyfriend. I do not think that the doctor sees Naomi as a lover, at least not in the classic sense of the word where the word "lover" is charged with connotations to passion and strong feelings in general. I do not see such thing from the doctor. A man who would be passionate for a woman would turn at least a little territorial, it is men's nature. The doc is turning territorial for self-centered reasons only-he wouldn't have sex with Naomi if she slept with another man, but this is not out of passion or to keep her for himself, it is because he's afraid of catching STD. Again, even his "protectiveness" is a protectiveness for himself.

 

You couldn't be more right. My view is that if he slept with someone else, I would be devastated because I am emotionally attached to him.

 

His "logical" viewpoint, void of any feelings, is that I'm now "contaminated."

 

Now that I am thinking about this, he treats me very much the same way he treats his possessions. He mentioned an exquisite piece of furniture accidentally marred at one of of his dinner parties and how upset he was about it, how long it would take him to fix it and it kills him every time he sees the flaw. Later he mentioned how the gardner scuffed his wall carrying a rake through his house, and now the entire wall must be repainted, not just the spot, because it would be glaringly new paint in a tiny spot, so he wants the entire wall repainted.

 

 

 

To me this doc man has a serious disconnect with his emotional side, and because he is attractive and a catch, he sets an example to Naomi that she feels tempted to mimic. What she doesn't seem to realize consciously is that despite his outer attractiveness, this man is an emotional handicap. He may have a brain with 180 IQ, but his emotional sensitivity is the one of a reptile. And the danger is that Naomi, due to her own emotional unavailability issues, views him as a good example to follow. Which is an act of violence against her own softness, sweetness and sensitivity that are the basic ingredients of femininity.

 

I realized this was a possibility from the start, but didn't know the extent of how emotionally stunted he would be. You are not the first one to state this.

 

 

 

 

I only noticed that Naomi mentioned being attracted to the younger of her dating prospects, a guy that is a dozen years her junior. Obviously a choice that will not lead to anything long term, as relationships with such a big age gap, where the woman is older, rarely lead to commitment. A lot of fireworks in the bedroom, but rarely more than that.

 

The other dating prospect, who is Naomi's age, and more suitable for something meaningful, as long as age goes-Naomi said she was not interested in him.

 

To me the relationship with the doc, the attraction to much younger (hence unavailable for serious commitment) man, and lack of interest to a man that might be suitable, points out to commitment issues that Naomi has to address in herself. The water seeks its own level. If Naomi is emotionally unavailable herself, sure she will be attracted to men who for some reasons are unavailable too-too young, eternal bachelor, etc.

 

Your deductions are spot-on and scare me, frankly. I never really thought of myself as emotionally unavailable because I've had two very long-term relationships and I know what it is to be available and to commit. But the last one nearly killed me after it ended, and perhaps that's why "the water seeks its own level," because the water doesn't want to be burned again.

 

Last night I went out to dinner with a friend. She's a huge proponent of therapy/skills/psychology… We went over my dating history since my split approximately four years ago.

 

All of the men who offered long-term commitment and eagerness to grow a relationship, with no question about their interest, I shied away from and ended it within about six weeks' time.

 

The two men who I fell in love with, one was freshly divorced and in no position to start a serious relationship (our relationship lasted about five months), and now the unavailable doctor (nine months.)

 

How it happens that I'm subconsciously doing this is astounding.

 

This 500-plus posts/thread was well worth it to get to your comment. It's well worth it. It's given me a crucial moment of taking off blinders and giving me a chance at a meaningful relationship.

[Naomi99]

My biggest fear for you, is that if the Doc finds out your dating other people (even tho is was his idea), he will bow out himself and find another.

 

Rather than fear, that might be a blessing for me in the long run.

[Naomi99]

Naomi, you obviously did (or do) enjoy his company, otherwise you wouldn't have stayed within his radius for coming up to nine months. There is nothing wrong with you - and I cannot state this too clearly - enjoying being in his company, if that is what you want. I get the impression you would like more, but this is not the man to give that to you.

That does NOT make him a monster.

 

Thank you, Hermes scarf. No, he is not a monster, but I certainly believe he is aware of what he is doing. As you said before, he has 15 years of dating experience more than I. What do I have? Younger, naive, two long-term relationships, few lovers, and a ton of Sex and the City episodes.

 

I also believe he is of the mindset "every man for himself," meaning if he hurts me, I should have known what I was getting myself into and he carries zero responsibility.

[Hermes]

Hello Naomi!

 

Well, of course he is aware, and that is why he told you straight what his position was/is. It would be offensive if he led you on from the outset with promises of a future together, walking into the sunset hand in hand.

 

Did it hurt you when he told you straight out what his position is? Although I feel you already knew that this 56 yo man was a confirmed bachelor. But then you wanted to hear it from him and he DID tell you.

 

Naomi, you are younger, but you are also a grown woman. And no he has no responsibility for you as he is not your Dad. Just a question and you don't have to answer, do you ever discuss him with your parents (if they are still around)?

 

I'd make a bonfire of those S and the City CDs. That isn't life, it's a movie drama, nothing more, played out by people who are paid actors.

 

Dr. Who does know what he wants, and now it is up to you to decide what YOU want. Carry on the liaison with the doctor, no strings attached, or.......

[Naomi99]

Naomi, apologies if my posts come accross as harsh and insensitive, I wish my English was better, so I could use milder, more nuanced language. I do empathies with your situation and I think many women have found themselves in the grey area you are currently operating. Including myself. I also think you are quiet intelligent and do have the capacity to reflect on things.

 

Please, no apologies! Your English is excellent. The words you are saying have so much value, I am appreciative that you've even taken the time to write out your thoughts on my matter, a total stranger overseas. How can I fault you for your English? On the contrary, it is I who should be thanking you.

 

 

Your experience with your parents is also something familiar, and I do know that when a child's feelings have been systematically invalidated by the parents' imposed opinion on how the child SHOULD feel, then it perpetuates the conviction within the child that her emotions are not important, not correct, not to be trusted. A child like that when already an adult will be accustomed to put others' needs and perceptions higher than their own..

 

Very powerful words. I was in therapy for years over this issue, and learned skills on how to cope with decision-making, priorities, how to maintain relationships while preserving self-respect. Looks like I can use a refresher course.

 

 

I liked your expression "a woman of radical acceptance". Well, a good place to start with this is to radically accept yourself, do not let anybody define what is good and appropriate FOR YOU. Tune into your feelings about how a person, or a situations make you feel, and radically accept that you are going to do what feels best FOR YOU, not for Doc, or whoever else. If you let Doc decide what is good and appropriate, of course, he is going to steer things to what feels good FOR HIM, not for you. Do not count on him to cater for your well-being, he's too much obsessed with his own persona. It is your role to decide what you truly want, and feel absolutely free to get rid of anybody who is wasting your time and not contributing to your happiness (including the opinions of poster on this forum ;-)). Your happiness matters. And who cares if he thinks that you would be impolite/petty for ignoring his texts. If that makes you move on quicker with your life-do it, he has no say in what you chose to do. You own him nothing.

 

Bottom line: He doest not have my best interest at heart in nearly any matter; whether it be physical well-being, emotional, driving home at 2 a.m. He only has his best interest. If I do what's best for him, and he's doing what's best for him, who's doing what's best for me? No one!

 

I know not to take all contributing posts seriously, but I am grateful for the people have taken the time to offer their input. I am fully aware I have the power to veto.

[Hermes]

So, Naomi, when you first met Dr. Who, what were your expectations (from a 56 yo man who is a confirmed bachelor). You were involved with him for almost nine months (not just one week or nine weeks). So, what drew you to this older man, and I think you did enumerate his good points in an older post.

 

He is what he is, Naomi. If he wanted to be married/long-term relationship he would have done so before now.

 

And, I repeat, he did not force you (or so I gather from your posts), he did not kidnap you off the side of the street, bundle you into the car and carry you to his place. Right?

[Hermes]

Heh heh wrong thread.

[Ms Darcy]

So here is a trashy reference. Was watching the tv show "Marriage Bootcamp" where four couples in troubled relationships share one house and engage in group therapy to deal with their issues.

 

Guess when the couples were most able to talk? When they were talking/gossiping about OTHER couples' problems. Not talking about their own.

 

I should note that one of the therapists said - flat out - to one of the 40 something year-old women on the show:

 

"Don't you think it's time to stop blaming mommy and daddy and all your past boyfriends for not being everything you need? How ridiculous for you as a woman with a teenage daughter not to teach her that it starts with you. Don't blame others. Take responsibility for yourself. Then you'll stop ending up in bad relationships and/or single."

[Hermes]

Also, Naomi, you once said:

 

"....always very sweet and affectionate toward me beyond that. " (the sleeping arrangement).

 

So, I suppose, as I have said before it comes down to what YOU want out of life. What do you want?

 

In reality we are not here to psycho-analyze Dr. Who, who isn't posting on here, but to converse with you about your concerns "....leave or stay" (that being the heading of this thread).

[Ms Darcy]

It's easier to psychoanalyze him than to make change oneself.

 

I suffered for years from bad bosses until (over a long period of time), I transformed myself into a better employee.

[Naomi99]

You are not a server at a restaurant, nor a Hallmark Hall of Fame movie. .

 

 

It is not mean to "just stop contacting" someone you have known for eight months. he said himself that if you are looking for something serious, you should look elsewhere. If you said "okay" and did that, and never accepted a date again and did not contact him - is that mean???

 

Not responding to his text "hey, how're ya?" is very mean to me. Esp. when we left on happy and clear terms. It takes two seconds to say "Good!" That is what I was referring to when people advised me not to answer him. It takes more energy not to respond than it does to respond. Not responding is more calculating and vindictive and lacks foresight for what may be. I haven't even decided what I will do yet.

 

However, if he asks me out again and I declined and did not contact him ever after that, of course, you're right. No, that is not mean. That's me going on with my life.

 

 

You are feeling guilt about letting him go and are now downplaying your real needs - because you real need for something slightly more committed would mean letting him go or being "just friends" - you can't casually sleep with him while pursuing other men, quite truly.

I know I can't. Maybe if it was Brad Pitt himself, yeah.

 

I can grab drinks and meet men, but the second they lean in to kiss me, I turn my head and point off to the distance and yell, "What is that over there!?!" They never get to kiss me because I feel so guilty.

[boltnrun]

So why are you committing to someone who told you flat out he won't commit to you?

[Hermes]

".....we left on happy and clear terms."

 

Now that is good new, Naomi. There is clarity then?

 

and you say:

 

"I haven't even decided what I will do yet. " And, dear girl, that is absolutely YOUR prerogative.

 

Life isn't always easy.

[Naomi99]

So why are you committing to someone who told you flat out he won't commit to you?

 

I've been dating all along and only found out five days ago he can't offer anything more serious than what we have currently.

 

Just because we aren't committed doesn't stop me from feeling guilty. I haven't dated since that talk so maybe I will stop feeling guilty.

[Hermes]

And could I also say something, Naomi. If you say, right here and now: "I am going to carry on with this man because I FEEL LIKE IT", then that is entirely your choice. Because, now you have "eyes wide open".

[boltnrun]

Of course, Hermes. It's entirely her choice.

 

BUT...you do give up the right to complain about his lack of commitment and his lack of emotional involvement, Naomi. Not to say you are complaining per se, but since you know the score and if you choose to continue, it must be with full understanding that what you are getting now is ALL you'll ever get from this man. And you'd never be able to ask for more.

 

I made the opposite decision in my case...I did love that man and I did know he did not and would not love me. It hurt too much to keep spending weekends with him, traveling with him and sleeping with him knowing he was only spending time with me out of "convenience" and because I made it so easy for him to get sex and companionship without having to do a thing in return.

 

If you're OK with giving your love to a man who will never give you his...then that's fine, of course. I just wouldn't like to see you continue out of love and become damaged in the process.

[Naomi99]

 

I made the opposite decision in my case...I did love that man and I did know he did not and would not love me. It hurt too much to keep spending weekends with him, traveling with him and sleeping with him knowing he was only spending time with me out of "convenience" and because I made it so easy for him to get sex and companionship without having to do a thing in return.

 

If you're OK with giving your love to a man who will never give you his...then that's fine, of course. I just wouldn't like to see you continue out of love and become damaged in the process.

 

I'm really glad you shared your story with me. It's kind of a crystal ball for me what could happen if I continued on.

 

The more days go by, my feelings for him are waning. Went out to dinner with a close GF last night and she said I seem to be doing unbelievably well and surprised I'm not pining after him.

 

Think things are naturally taking their course.