On intellectualism and art...

[journeynow]

...in America... everyone thinks they know your worldview based on how you dress or what you associate with. There's no opportunity to impress upon people any sort of altruism when you're a "pretentious musician", "smarta** nerd", or "dumb jock" before word one gets said....

 

You're making assumptions there ^ about people making assumptions. I object.

[Synerjist]

You're making assumptions there ^ about people making assumptions. I object.

 

I never said 'everyone'.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic about individuals not falling into those traps anywhere and everywhere I conduct myself. But, it seems to me that our culture is overtly prone to not giving someone outwardly different such as myself a chance, though. It's sort of an immutable truth, sadly.

 

And I don't agree that I'm avoiding non-alt/muso/artist types at all. I spend a good chunk of my time working, and a bit of time after work, in upper-middle class environs. Women aren't exactly clamoring for me there, so I assume that most want someone who fits their stereotypical American dream: Clean cut, loves football, ready to make kids, put up picket fences. People are free to prove that suspicion wrong, though. I've got open arms on that front.

 

Same with online dating. If the commenters here think I'm JUST messaging Suicide Girl lookalikes, you're simply not correct (they're a minority, like myself, either way). I've messaged A LOT women of all different types. I've got no reason to not give a girl a chance because she's bleach blonde, into nursing, loves yoga, is a bookworm, or whatever. Who knows what amazing, loving person might carry themselves those ways. That's all fine with me! I've sent a kind word to many like that... and other types to be sure. They always ignore me. What am I supposed to think?

[Synerjist]

itsallgrand: I really don't think I'd judge you in real life or otherwise. I'm really not like that. Post a pic (as you have none on your profile). I think you'd be surprised. You might very well be shocked at the diversity of my friends as well.

[faraday]

For sure. Completely my M.O. The late, great Eyedea has inspired a lot in me recently because of that very outlook. R.I.P., brother.

 

Like I say, there's no winning at art. That's not the point. Your favorite football team doesn't make you better than anyone else either, even though there's actually winning at sports. People get too wrapped up in things that should express them not define them.

 

That's what's SO HARD about dating in America... everyone thinks they know your worldview based on how you dress or what you associate with. There's no opportunity to impress upon people any sort of altruism when you're a "pretentious musician", "smarta** nerd", or "dumb jock" before word one gets said. It gets colder by the day.

 

My post was directed at you based on your prior posts in this thread....because you came accross as a bit pretentious....and closed minded.

 

I'm saying...don't think that because someone doesn't hang out with your kind of people, dress the way you think they should, or find certain things interesting...that they have any less depth than you. Everyone has the ability to be profound.

 

I'm not friends with many artists. I don't connect with many. I don't write them off as a group, I love meeting creatives. It's just rare that I connect with people, so finding an artist I connect with is finding a needle in a haystack.

 

I can't think of one group of people that I connect with the most. I have friends ranging from 20 years old to 60, low income to high income...super intelligent to the....not so smart.

 

If you lined up my exes it would look like a United Nations conference. There is a large income disparity...from $20,000 a year to in the $300,000. Super educated to high school drop outs. Creatives to the most sterile of men. Single dads to the most bachelor of men. And they were all awesome and had things I valued...and none were better than any others (except my current bf- he's the bomb ...he's also not creative at all. He's a rock climbing scientist...and one of the kindest, smartest people I've ever met).

 

I didn't judge any of them by their exterior....and thankfully they didn't judge me. Because we're so much more than our physical bodies....and if I just took my initial interpretation of people, I would miss out on a lot of meaningful connections that I've shared over the years. I would have passed over my bf...his profile looked boring...but he had a nice smile so I went for it...and when he walked into the brunch place (his glasses completely fogged up, cheeks red, size sticker still stuck on to his (apparently) new jeans...and greeting me with a bear hug and huge genuine smile)....I had no idea he would end up changing me in such a huge way.

 

Think about it this way....so far, your "type" of girl hasn't been working for you...why not be open minded and go outside your box? There are so many awesome people out there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Synerjist]

Think about it this way....so far, your "type" of girl hasn't been working for you...why not be open minded and go outside your box? There are so many awesome people out there.

 

I think I've made it clear I have given many different types a chance, and will continue to. I get more of an impression that women are rejecting the "muso" me, than the other way around.

 

My friends too, run the gamut (and very few are artists and musicans, FYI), but then, they're guys... and a bit "different " with respect to their own prescribed archetypes.... while many women look for cowboys, firemen, rockers, or whatever to fall in love with. Like I said, if a yuppie type in the upscale area that I work at thinks my beard 'n' boots vibe is endearing, I've got zero qualms about giving them the chance. I think, culturally speaking, men are far more likely to date outside their subcultural alignments than women are. Just my observation.

[faraday]

So, you're fine with dating different types of women, but every time you've tried to meet outside your group, every single one of those women has rejected you?

 

 

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[Synerjist]

So, you're fine with dating different types of women, but every time you've tried to meet outside your group, every single one of those women has rejected you?

 

Yes. Rejected or ignored me.

[faraday]

You realise that you're the common denominator with all those different women, right?

[Synerjist]

Yes. Exactly. That's what I tried to say. I guess I wasn't clear. They're not willing to give me a chance, not vice-versa... hence I spend a concerted amount of time sticking to crowds and contacting (on line dating) women where I'd be their "type".

[faraday]

I'm so lost.

[Synerjist]

I'm so lost.

 

Ummmmm...

 

You said, 'I should try and meet women outside my box of types.'

 

I said, 'I do, be it through my work area and friends, or messaging many types of women in online dating, and I always get ignored, not approached/flirted with, or rejected.'

 

You said, 'I'm the common denominator with getting rejected by these women'.

 

I said, 'Exactly, I am giving them the chance and they're rejecting me, so it's obviously me... and that's why I make a concerted effort to focus on hipster venues or (online) seeking out women who would likely be into my type.'

 

I think you might be underestimating just how snotty people can be about dating outside their archetypes. For example, I have messaged more than my fair share of women in Sun Devils / Cardinals swag (hey, I actually like watching football), but I get rejected (more often, ignored) every single time. I'd wager it's because they refuse to date someone with my haircut, beard, or "obscure" band swag. I still give it a shot, pretty often, but I'm never surprised when I get the cold shoulder.

[Batya33]

People have their preferences when it comes to dating and you as an openminded artist might do best to shy away from assumptions of "snottiness" - you don't want to be labeled so why label strangers on a dating site? I also think you're conflating dating with friendship or casual acquaintances - if someone refused to be polite or pleasant to you in a social situation because of how you choose to dress or wear your hair that might be for a snotty reason but dating especially with a view towards the long term is a whole different thing. It likely is not because of an "archetype" as you put it but rather what the woman is looking for for long term compatibility -not nearly as important in friendship. I was friends with people (and am) who smoke pot occasionally, who are struggling artists, who have vastly different religious leanings from me but those differences would have been dealbreakers in dating. Doesn't make me snotty or focused on some archetype -just means that like most people I had some preferences as to who I would be seriously involved with.

 

The issue with your assumptions (aside from being inconsistent with being open minded and intelligent) is that it comes accross as cynical and jaded so that even if you met the right person it likely would be tainted by all this negativity based mostly on superficial assessments. IMO.

[Synerjist]

I do not pursue women with vastly different religious leanings than myself. I stick with messaging women in the secular / non-religious range of things. There's plenty in the younger, more educated range of things. Also, I am not a starving artist: I make $90k/yr. + bonuses and benis as a Sr. industrial designer. And I don't smoke pot (though, I'm all for the legalization, and have no issues with those who do).

 

I also don't think you can understand how I can be open-minded, but still observational about prevailing cultural patterns... as ugly as they may be. Every new person in a clean slate to me, hence my continuing to try outside my "type".

[faraday]

So, within your target group of women, are you having much luck getting dates with them?

[Batya33]

I do not pursue women with vastly different religious leanings than myself. I stick with messaging women in the secular / non-religious range of things. There's plenty in there in the young, educated range of things. Also, I am not a starving artist: I make $90k/yr. + bonuses and benis as a Sr. industrial designer. And I don't smoke pot (though, I'm all for the legalization, and have no issues with those who do).

 

I also don't think you can understand how I can be open-minded, but still observational about prevailing cultural patterns... as ugly as they may be. Every new person in a clean slate to me, hence my continuing to try outside my "type".

 

 

I was just referring to your dismissal of those women who reject you as snotty based on your generalized assumptions. And those are opinions about the patterns you experience, not observations. If every new person is a clean slate then practice what you preach and try to limit the superficial assumptions based on what someone is wearing in a photo (but I do allow you to generalize all you want about any woman who dares to express how she is just as comfortable in a little black dress as in sweats and your t-shirt).

[Synerjist]

So, within your target group of women, are you having much luck getting dates with them?

 

While I'd like to meet and date more, I meet women here-and-there. Usually, the interested ones end up approaching me, or message me first, oddly enough. They are usually on the more "alternative" end of the range, and/or a bit on the geeky side (though I'm not much of a gamer, or comic book/movie guy myself), and younger than myself. So, yeah, not a lot, but the ones into me are pretty archetypical.

 

 

I was just referring to your dismissal of those women who reject you as snotty based on your generalized assumptions. And those are opinions about the patterns you experience, not observations. If every new person is a clean slate then practice what you preach and try to limit the superficial assumptions based on what someone is wearing in a photo (but I do allow you to generalize all you want about any woman who dares to express how she is just as comfortable in a little black dress as in sweats and your t-shirt).

 

This is a forum convo. I treat it more like a scientific/anthropological proposition, like talking about how French culture might view labor ethics. It has nothing to do with how I conduct myself with people in life... and 'suspicion' is probably a more accurate term on my part here than 'assumption'.

[Batya33]

While I'd like to meet and date more, I meet women here-and-there. Usually, the interested ones end up approaching me, or message me first, oddly enough. They are usually on the more "alternative" end of the range, and/or a bit on the geeky side (though I'm not much of a gamer, or comic book/movie guy myself), and younger than myself. So, yeah, not a lot, but the ones into me are pretty archetypical.

 

 

 

 

This is a forum convo. I treat it more like a scientific/anthropological proposition, like talking about how French culture might view labor ethics. It has nothing to do with how I conduct myself with people in life... and 'suspicion' is probably a more accurate term on my part here than 'assumption'.

 

I wasn't referring to your abstractions but your specific critiques of certain on line profiles. Let's agree to disagree. Unfortunately your point/observation often get lost in the way you choose to express your opinion - seems to me that you want to highlight the big words over the substance. Makes it harder to discern (or as some would say "figure out") the substance and increases the risk of misunderstanding (which I think is partly intentional - masking simple notions with "intellectual" verbage.

[Synerjist]

I wasn't referring to your abstractions but your specific critiques of certain on line profiles. Let's agree to disagree. Unfortunately your point/observation often get lost in the way you choose to express your opinion - seems to me that you want to highlight the big words over the substance. Makes it harder to discern (or as some would say "figure out") the substance and increases the risk of misunderstanding (which I think is partly intentional - masking simple notions with "intellectual" verbage.

 

I can see your point, but's hard to have what's essentially an sociological discussion without getting into ten cent word territory, though. I'd think that advice givers on a forum such as this would at least have dabbled with these sorts of higher-learning concepts (psychology, sociology, anthropology) and the way you discuss subjects at that level.

 

We digress, though. Debating this really doesn't address the topic. Basically, and without ten cent jargon, what we have is:

 

Myself Who is open-minded to dating a variety of 'types' of women, but who tends to focus on those who line up more-than-less with my somewhat "alternative" mantle, but not exclusively. Let's say it's a 60/40 split.

 

Faraday Who is encouraging me to be more open minded and to give a chance to those who fall outside of the usual fare of types who are attracted/responsive to me. The classic don't-judge-a-book-by-it's-cover idiom.

 

Batya33 Who is discouraging me from bothering with other 'types' because they have a strong tendency chose their respective mantles to express some deeper morals, beliefs, and lifestyle choices that (probably) don't align with mine.

 

It's the modern classic: "Stereoypes are small minded and often wrong." / "Stereotypes exist for a reason." debate. Frankly, I just want to meet more women who would have a higher likelihood of being compatible with me than not.

[faraday]

No...you missed my point. I was trying to not be blunt...so here goes...if your not meeting women that want to date you...maybe you need to become more date-able. Figure out what your dream woman would be looking for in a man...and become that man.

[Batya33]

Those " higher-learning concepts" you refer to - the best way in my opinion to discuss matters that are deep/insightful/and/or wise is with simple and accessible language. It's like when I was in grad school and writing exams -best advice I ever got was to write as if I was explaining the concepts to a 5th grader. Not because people are unintelligent -because you should assume that people are intelligent and will choose, wisely, not to talk with you if you insist on replacing accessible language with multisyllabic "intellectual speak" and will be too distracted by your insistence on using "big words" to actually hear your concept or be motivated to respond (lest your response to them be full of all that verbage).

 

I realize that you might speak very differently than you write but if you are choosing to interact that way with people then you might get to show off your vocabulary but you won't be playing nicely in the sandbox. Depends on whether you want to connect with people or constantly prove how smart or deep you are. You can't have both in most situations.

[Synerjist]

No...you missed my point. I was trying to not be blunt...so here goes...if your not meeting women that want to date you...maybe you need to become more date-able. Figure out what your dream woman would be looking for in a man...and become that man.

 

Well, that's pretty nebulous... especially considering how different women (by way of being human beings) differ from one-to-the-next.

 

Furthermore, I feel like I'm plenty "date-able" where I am. Not that I'm not a person interested in self-improvement, but I'm not sure there's anything lacking that would make me a non-viable option for women intested in my type.

[faraday]

You're right...it's not you. It must be most of the women in the world.

[Synerjist]

You're right...it's not you. It must be most of the women in the world.

 

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying meeting interested people isn't easy. A lot of single people would echo that sentiment.

[faraday]

It's just a matter of putting yourself out there, synerjist. It's as easy or as complicated as you make it.

 

Every single one of my single friends (male and female) that complain about not being able to meet people...don't put themselves out there in a meaningful way. They all think they do...but none of them are going on dates...and I know some attractive, intelligent, successful people.

 

I have been single off and on for the last 6 years. Dating was hard when I expected others to accept me as I was. When I changed...when I decided to become the woman that the man of my dreams was looking for (by changing my attitude, dressing nicer, finding fulfilment in my life through hobbies and volunteering)...I was in demand. I had no problem meeting several different men a week...because I upped my value.

 

Up your value.

 

Or stay the same. And join the others complaining about how hard it is.

 

It's not.

[itsallgrand]

I wonder, have you asked any of the women in your life for feedback? Friends, even family, women who know you and/or may have seen how you are presenting yourself with women?

 

A male friend of mine gave a lot of helpful advice that I just wouldn't have been able to take in had it not been from him. And then once I opened up about that, others started chiming in and it was all helpful. The kinds of things that it is hard to hear maybe, but it's easier if it's from someone you trust and whom you trust their judgment and intent (and have reasons to).

 

I have some hard edges. Things that may turn off some people I'd like to know, and in the beginning stages, something as small as one bad impression can be the deciding factor. Just knowing that, opened up my options more. Visibly. Right away.

 

It's another idea. And I'm glad you aren't only honing in on Suicide Girls. haha. Though, I don't see them as a minority population, to be honest!